Working on a Guide! - I need your help

[Akkien]

So yeah, basically, that. I started working on this guide around a month ago at a very slow pace but now that it's summer and I have a lot of free time, I was hoping to dedicate myself to finishing this work and finally put up some in-depth content out there for all of us Lucario mains. Right now I have around 9000+ words in and been writing 2000+ a day, but that's pretty much nothing compared to what I want to achieve; the contents of the guide are very extense so I ask you to help me in any way you can.

In the meantime, I'll use this thread to keep you guys informed about the progress and which parts are still pending completion, so anything you want to say to support the project is welcomed and of course will receive its proper credit. Know that the more you help the faster it'll be done.

Table of Contents:

Spoiler

Blue = Complete (At least for a first release)
Green = Almost Done (Minimal details to add)
Yellow = Halfway There (Something very important is still missing)
Orange = Just Started (There's a couple sentences down)
Red = Not even started
Teal = Stalled or Not important for first release

When the majority of the guide is in green color, it'll be ready to submit as a work in progress (:
Lucario's Moveset needs to be all green before submission.

## Close Combat: The Definitive Lucario Guide ##

[TB00] – I. Introduction
[LU00] –– A. The Basics
[LU01] ––– 1. Pros and Cons of Lucario
[LU02] ––– 2. What to Expect and What to Know
[LU03] ––– 3. A Brief On Lucario History
[LM00] –– B. Lucario’s Moveset (Missing Shield Advantage Data for some moves)
[LM01] ––– 1. On-Hit-Cancel and Magic Series
[LM02] ––– 2. Ground Moves
[LM21] –––– a. Jab (Descriptions are kinda short)
[LM22] –––– d. Forward-Tilt
[LM23] –––– e. Up-Tilt
[LM24] –––– f. Down-Tilt
[LM25] –––– f. Crawl–Tilt
[LM26] –––– g. Forward-Smash
[LM27] –––– h. Up-Smash
[LM28] –––– i. Down-Smash
[LM29] –––– j. Dash Attack
[LM03] ––– 3. Aerials
[LM31] –––– a. Neutral-Air
[LM32] –––– b. Forward-Air
[LM33] –––– c. Back-Air
[LM34] –––– d. Up-Air
[LM35] –––– e. Down-Air
[LM04] ––– 4. Grabs and Throws (Descriptions are short)
[LM41] –––– a. Grab
[LM42] –––– b. Running Grab
[LM43] –––– c. Pivot Grab
[LM44] –––– d. Pummel
[LM45] –––– e. Forward Throw
[LM46] –––– f. Back Throw
[LM47] –––– g. Up Throw
[LM48] –––– h. Down Throw
[LM05] ––– 5. Get-Up and Edge Attacks (Missing general overviews)
[LM51] –––– a. Get-Up Attack (Facing Up)
[LM52] –––– b. Get-Up Attack (Facing Down)
[LM53] –––– c. Get-Up Attack (Trip)
[LM54] –––– d. Edge Attack (Fast)
[LM55] –––– e. Edge Attack (Slow)
[LM06] ––– 6. Special Moves
[LM61] –––– a. Neutral-B: Aura Sphere (Missing some Frame Data)
[LM62] –––– b. Forward-B: Force Palm
[LM63] –––– c. Up-B: Extreme Speed
[LM64] –––– d. Down-B: Double Team
[LS00] –– C. Lucario's Stats
[NL00] – II. Leveling Up
[AU00] –– A. The Aura
[AU01] ––– 1. Properties of the Aura
[AU11] –––– a. Taunt
[AU02] ––– 2. Aura Cancels
[AU21] –––– a. The Aura Bomb (Neutral-B)
[AU22] –––– b. Aura Charged Force Palm (Side-B)
[AU23] –––– c. Double Team Cancel (Down-B)
[AU24] –––– d. Extreme Speed Cancel (Up-B)
[AT00] –– B. Advanced Techniques
[AT01] ––– 1. Boost Grab
[AT02] ––– 2. Ramen Noodling
[AT03] ––– 3. Moonwalking
[AT04] ––– 4. Ledge-Canceling
[AT05] ––– 5. Shield-Dropping (Lacking precision with this info)
[AT06] ––– 6. Ledge-Teching
[AT06] ––– 7. Powershielding
[LT00] –– C. Lucario Specific Techniques
[LT01] ––– 1. Aura Sphere Canceling (ASC)
[LT11] –––– a. Perfect Aura Sphere Landing
[LT02] ––– 2. Wall climbing
[FU00] –– D. Fundamentals
[FU01] ––– 1. Introduction
[FU11] –––– a. Knowledge
[FU12] –––– b. Gameplan
[FU13] –––– c. Mind Games and Conditioning
[FU14] –––– d. Patience
[FU02] ––– 2. Spacing and Movement
[FU21] –––– a. Dash Dancing and Fox-Trotting
[FU22] –––– b. Short Hop Fast Falling
[FU23] –––– c. Wavedashing and Wavelanding
[FU24] –––– d. Moonwalking
[FU25] –––– e. B-Reversing and Wavebouncing
[FU03] ––– 3. Zoning and Threatening
[FU04] ––– 4. Positional Advantage
[FU41] –––– a. Opponent Knocked Down
[FU42] –––– b. Opponent Off-Stage (Edgeguarding)
[FU43] –––– c. Opponent Above You
[FU44] –––– d. Opponent In The Corner
[FU05] ––– 5. Recovery
[FU51] –––– a. Ledge Options
[FU06] ––– 6. Prediction and Adaptation
[FU07] ––– 7. Common Mistakes
[ST00] –– E. Stage Choice
[PR00] –– F. Practicing as Lucario
[ET00] –– G. Experimental Techniques
[ET01] ––– 1. Footstool
[ET02] ––– 2. A-Holding Techniques
[ET21] –––– a. Moonwalk Macro
[ET22] –––– b. Walk/Run Toggle
[PM00] –– F. Player Mentality
[MM00]– III. Metagame and Match-Up Knowledge
[ME00] –– A. Lucario's Metagame
[OP00] ––– 1. Lucario Optimization
[OP01] –––– a. Neutral Game
[OP02] –––– b. Punish Game
[OP03] –––– c. Aura Management
[ME00] –– B. Match-Up Knowledge
[RR00]– IV. References and Resources
[CR00]– V. Credits

As you can see, I'm using a mixed approach to the latter parts of the guide, inspired in points discussed by Sethlon's Roy Guide, Tai's Marth Guide (Melee), and CunningKitsune's Fox Guide (Melee). All of this, of course from a Lucario point of view..

Right now I would prefer if you guys could help me with move overviews, suggestions and such, as I'd like to tackle the Fundamentals part myself. Also, Risky, I'm looking at you >_> I know you were writing a guide sometime before, so if you have anything saved up and read this please share so I can make the process faster.

 

[Risky]

Well. I played him in 3.5 and have since lost faith. I did plan on writing a guide that was very extensive, much like this looks to be and I can appreciate that. I was shooting for the stars I think and wanted to have gfy examples of each application of a move, such as [usmash 2 hits -> opponent DI's away, opponent DI's in, opponent CC's it].

I have no problem answering any questions you have or contributing to this. Somewhat random that I checked this sub and read this entire thread to see my name in the last sentence not tagged lol.

Pretty sure someone posted a frame data thread recently but it's not stickied.

 

[Akkien]

Well. I played him in 3.5 and have since lost faith. I did plan on writing a guide that was very extensive, much like this looks to be and I can appreciate that. I was shooting for the stars I think and wanted to have gfy examples of each application of a move, such as [usmash 2 hits -> opponent DI's away, opponent DI's in, opponent CC's it].

I have no problem answering any questions you have or contributing to this. Somewhat random that I checked this sub and read this entire thread to see my name in the last sentence not tagged lol.

Pretty sure someone posted a frame data thread recently but it's not stickied.

Somehow I knew you would read this lmao (also didn't know how to tag -I do now). Hopefully I don't end up shooting for the stars too. I also thought of gfy examples of move applications but I'll probably leave that for updates post-publication. Right now what's taking most time is moves' utility and descriptions as I'm a little lost trying to use a more technical and correct vocabulary. You'd also do me a great favor and save me time if you could talk to me about the 2.5, 2.6, and 3.0 meta. (so I don't have to spend hours watching old videos just for a less important section)

Btw, I'm the one working on Lucario's Frame Data lol (along with TheGravyTrain), I'm pretty sure it'll be all covered in a few weeks.

 

[Risky]

I started playing in 2.5 towards the end of it. I'll try to recap the way I remember it. Patch numbers may not be accurate.
2.5 - Best recovery in the game. Could up-b and wallcling after it, and then up-b again. Could expend aura to air dodge too. Worst shield in game as it was the size of Squirtle's with a character 5x the size. Mario Dair shieldpoked a full hp shield. Aura carried over between stocks. 2.6 had nothing relevant.
3.0 - Removal of wallcling. Now start each stock with one full aura charge.
3.5 - HUGE buff to Lucario's shield, making it actually fit his character model. My favorite iteration (felt fair).
3.6 - Removed air dodge out of up-b. Now Meep Meep's when he dashes. RIP

They slowly changed Double Team over the course of these patches to have a bigger window to be punished at the end. Used to be 2 frames of vulnerability at the end with no DTC.

 

[Akkien]

Any chance you guys could talk about Lucario's moveset? What you use his moves for; at which percentages do you use them, etc?
I have my own thoughts already written on the guide but I'd like to have a more global one for each move, that fully emcompasses the Lucario main's opinions.

Thanks in advance!

 

[Randomman14]

Any chance you guys could talk about Lucario's moveset? What you use his moves for; at which percentages do you use them, etc?
I have my own thoughts already written on the guide but I'd like to have a more global one for each move, that fully emcompasses the Lucario main's opinions.

Thanks in advance!

I know one way I usually kill is once they are at a kill percent, DT cancel jab, Dtilt, spirit bomb. Idk if it's optimal or even that advanced but it's worked for me so far

 

[Smash_Ronin]

Any chance you guys could talk about Lucario's moveset? What you use his moves for; at which percentages do you use them, etc?
I have my own thoughts already written on the guide but I'd like to have a more global one for each move, that fully emcompasses the Lucario main's opinions.

Thanks in advance!

i've only been playing the game for a few months so i can't even be sure that what i'm about to say is really going to help (or even be valid for all i know), but i've mained Lucario all this time and from what i've learned (mostly from reading articles but also from my own experience) the most important thing to remember about his moveset is it's "leveling" system which prioritizes the 4 different levels of importance involved with succesful OHC's. the specials & smashes are the "strategic" killers, but in that case most are very straight forward. FSmash > A uses an aura charge and throws them very much farther. double team cancels with an aura charge whose only real application goes toward an easy approach (considering Lucario has very few approaches). Same with ES which will cancel only to start his hit leveling series again for a couple more hits and then it's back to deciding which smash you're going to kill with or figuring out another way to restart your OHC series to continue combo-ing until you CAN kill. correct me if i'm wrong but it isn't so much the individual moves in his moveset (which are actually quite blunt if you look right at them) but the fluidity between the moves and THOSE applications that makes it infinitely unique. for me, studying the leveling system (which really has very basic laws to understand) has been the most interesting journey i could have ever asked for from a video game. it's a means of taking the improvisational feel that smash brothers has so divinely, if not accidentally, brought into the world of fighting games and raises the bar even further. Lucario, i feel, is well on his way to becoming a tier 2 or 3 character, it's just going to take a few more patches, and even more importantly, someone to tap so vicariously through his characteristics that he becomes an extension of the players mind. it happens in melee all the time, but with a game like PM it may take a bit longer. it seems pure talent alone won't get you far in PM without studying a lot of text and diligently practicing the meta.

hope this helps in some way. Lucario has the potential to become one of the most feared mains in the game. maining him has been so... interesting and fun. when i saw this thread my heart pounded. i've been ANXIOUSLY waiting for someone to put together a guide, not just for myself to learn, but also because i really do think that if enough people become more knowledgeable of Lucario's complexities then true stars will start popping up and cultivate an even more respectable name for Lucario mains everywhere.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR WHAT YOU'RE DOING!!!!!
i cannot WAIT to read it and study it and lose days and days of my life learning to apply it

 

[Risky]

My little hiatus is over, picking him back up. I'll write some stuff up for move applications today at work.

 

[Risky]

Dtilt: good button in neutral. reasonably safe, fast startup, great followup potential. gives low profile while crouch canceling so it beats a lot of options (think falcon nair). can be spaced on shield. easy option to choose for a low commitment edgeguard. excellent combo tool low-mid% as it pops up directly in front of us, as well as a strong way to combo into kill moves at higher%

Utilt: fastest grounded move (frame 4). can be used to stop descending approaches with slight disjoint, thought not reliable to do so. strong combo move low-mid%, can often get 2-3 in a row before the opponent can DI away. one of Lucario's best options out of a double team cancel as it leads to a kill at high%. very useful for catching characters on a projectile or jump read in neutral from a DTC. go to option after uthrow at low% on most characters

Ftilt: i put these two together as they have very similar applications. ftilt is a shield pressure tool after you get in as it essentially spaces for you, putting you directly on top of your opponent for your chosen followup (usually force palm). strong combo tool at low% into force palm as well.

Ctilt: very situational. has set KB on certain hitboxes but since it's slow it's difficult to combo into. useful for timing mixups on an opponents shield once you've conditioned them to react to dtilt or ftilt it can throw them off

i have some other stuff on his smashes, but figured i'd put this up for now and see what i'm missing

 

[Smash_Ronin]

So yeah, basically, that. I started working on this guide around a month ago at a very slow pace but now that it's summer and I have a lot of free time, I was hoping to dedicate myself to finishing this work and finally put up some in-depth content out there for all of us Lucario mains. Right now I have around 9000+ words in and been writing 2000+ a day, but that's pretty much nothing compared to what I want to achieve; the contents of the guide are very extense so I ask you to help me in any way you can.

In the meantime, I'll use this thread to keep you guys informed about the progress and which parts are still pending completion, so anything you want to say to support the project is welcomed and of course will receive its proper credit. Know that the more you help the faster it'll be done.

Table of Contents:

Spoiler

Blue = Complete
Green = Almost Done (Minimal details to add)
Yellow = Halfway There (Something very important is still missing)
Orange = Just Started (There's a couple sentences down)
Red = Not even started

When the majority of the guide is in green/blue color, it'll be ready to submit as a work in progress (:

[TB00] – I. Introduction
[LU00] –– A. The Basics
[LU01] ––– 1. Pros and Cons of Lucario
[LU02] ––– 2. What to Expect and What to Know
[LU03] ––– 3. A Brief On Lucario History
[LM00] –– B. Lucario’s Moveset (Missing overall Shield Advantage Data)
[LM01] ––– 1. On-Hit-Cancel and Magic Series
[LM02] ––– 2. Ground Moves (Missing General overviews, and utility from each attack)
[LM21] –––– a. Jab
[LM22] –––– d. Forward-Tilt
[LM23] –––– e. Up-Tilt
[LM24] –––– f. Down-Tilt
[LM25] –––– f. Crawl–Tilt
[LM26] –––– g. Forward-Smash
[LM27] –––– h. Up-Smash
[LM28] –––– i. Down-Smash
[LM29] –––– j. Dash Attack
[LM03] ––– 3. Aerials (Missing General overviews, and utility from each attack)
[LM31] –––– a. Neutral-Air
[LM32] –––– b. Forward-Air
[LM33] –––– c. Back-Air
[LM34] –––– d. Up-Air
[LM35] –––– e. D-Air
[LM04] ––– 4. Grabs and Throws (Missing general overviews, and utility from each attack)
[LM41] –––– a. Grab
[LM42] –––– b. Running Grab
[LM43] –––– c. Turn Grab
[LM44] –––– d. Pummel
[LM45] –––– e. Forward Throw
[LM46] –––– f. Back Throw
[LM47] –––– g. Up Throw
[LM48] –––– h. Down Throw
[LM05] ––– 5. Get-Up and Edge Attacks (Missing general overviews)
[LM51] –––– a. Get-Up Attack (Facing Up)
[LM52] –––– b. Get-Up Attack (Facing Down)
[LM53] –––– c. Get-Up Attack (Trip)
[LM54] –––– d. Edge Attack (Fast)
[LM55] –––– e. Edge Attack (Slow)
[LM06] ––– 6. Special Moves (Ground or Air) (Missing General overviews, and utility from each attack)
[LM61] –––– a. Neutral-B: Aura Sphere (Missing some Frame Data)
[LM62] –––– b. Forward-B: Force Palm
[LM63] –––– c. Up-B: Extreme Speed
[LM64] –––– d. Down-B: Double Team
[LS00] –– C. Lucario's Statistics
[NL00] – II. The Next Level
[AU00] –– A. The Aura
[AU01] ––– 1. Properties of the Aura
[AU11] –––– a. Taunt
[AU02] ––– 2. Aura Cancels
[AU21] –––– a. The Aura Bomb (Neutral-B)
[AU22] –––– b. Aura Charged Force Palm (Side-B)
[AU23] –––– c. Double Team Cancel (Down-B)
[AU24] –––– d. Extreme Speed Cancel (Up-B)
[AT00] –– B. Advanced Techniques
[AT01] ––– 1. Boost Grab
[AT02] ––– 2. Ramen Noodling
[AT03] ––– 3. Moonwalking
[AT04] ––– 4. Ledge-Canceling
[AT05] ––– 5. Shield-Dropping (Info not precise enough)
[AT06] ––– 6. Ledge-Teching
[AT06] ––– 7. Powershielding
[LT00] –– C. Lucario Specific Techniques
[LT01] ––– 1. Aura Sphere Canceling (ASC)
[LT02] ––– 2. Wall climbing
[FU00] –– D. Fundamentals
[FU01] ––– 1. Introduction
[FU11] –––– a. Knowledge
[FU12] –––– b. Gameplan
[FU13] –––– c. Conditioning
[FU14] –––– d. Mind Games
[FU02] ––– 2. Spacing and Movement
[FU03] ––– 3. Positional Advantage
[FU51] –––– a. Opponent Knocked Down
[FU52] –––– b. Opponent Off-Stage (Edge-guarding)
[FU53] –––– c. Opponent Above You
[FU54] –––– d. Opponent In The Corner
[FU04] ––– 4. Zoning and Threatening
[FU05] ––– 5. Recovery
[FU51] –––– a. Ledge Options
[FU06] ––– 6. Prediction and Adaptation
[FU07] ––– 7. Common Mistakes
[ST00] –– E. Stage Choice
[PR00] –– F. Practicing as Lucario
[ET00] –– G. Experimental Techniques
[ET01] ––– 1. Footstool
[ET02] ––– 2. A-Holding Techniques
[ET21] –––– a. Moonwalk Macro
[ET22] –––– b. Walk/Run Toggle
[ET03] ––– 3. Teeter Canceling
[MU00]– III. Match-Up Knowledge (This will probably be the last thing I write, after the rest of the guide it's done and up here on Smashboards. I'll try to cover at least Spacies and common MUs before uploading though).
[RR00]– IV. References and Resources
[CR00]– V. Credits

As you can see, I'm using a mixed approach to the latter parts of the guide, inspired in points discussed by Sethlon's Roy Guide, Tai's Marth Guide (Melee), and CunningKitsune's Fox Guide (Melee). All of this, of course from a Lucario point of view.

Right now I would prefer if you guys could help me with move overviews, suggestions and such, as I'd like to tackle the Fundamentals part myself. Also, Risky, I'm looking at you >_> I know you were writing a guide sometime before, so if you have anything saved up and read this please share so I can make the process faster.

Aikken... how's the table of contents coming along?

 

[Akkien]

Dtilt: good button in neutral. reasonably safe, fast startup, great followup potential. gives low profile while crouch canceling so it beats a lot of options (think falcon nair). can be spaced on shield. easy option to choose for a low commitment edgeguard. excellent combo tool low-mid% as it pops up directly in front of us, as well as a strong way to combo into kill moves at higher%

Utilt: fastest grounded move (frame 4). can be used to stop descending approaches with slight disjoint, thought not reliable to do so. strong combo move low-mid%, can often get 2-3 in a row before the opponent can DI away. one of Lucario's best options out of a double team cancel as it leads to a kill at high%. very useful for catching characters on a projectile or jump read in neutral from a DTC. go to option after uthrow at low% on most characters

Ftilt: i put these two together as they have very similar applications. ftilt is a shield pressure tool after you get in as it essentially spaces for you, putting you directly on top of your opponent for your chosen followup (usually force palm). strong combo tool at low% into force palm as well.

Ctilt: very situational. has set KB on certain hitboxes but since it's slow it's difficult to combo into. useful for timing mixups on an opponents shield once you've conditioned them to react to dtilt or ftilt it can throw them off

i have some other stuff on his smashes, but figured i'd put this up for now and see what i'm missing

See, this is what I'm talking about: a lot of the details you're saying I didn't have in the guide yet and they're very important. If you want to compare I can post what I had as description for these moves. I was hoping to write at least 2 or 3 paragraphs per move so this is good.

Aikken... how's the table of contents coming along?

I've been traveling a lot recently so I haven't been able to work on the guide as I'd like to. I'm happy to say that all the moving is done and I'm finally back home with everything set up to continue with it. The table of contents is always updated on the first post every time I modify something on the guide so you can always refer to that if you're wondering how is it coming along (:

So if no one else has anything to say about tilts, I think we can start talking about his Smashes. (Also Jab - If you have something you want to say about Lucario's jab please do so).

 

[Akkien]

This thread has been quiet for a while... I was absent for a long time but I'm back to writing the guide, and if you check out the table of contents you'll see there's a lot of progress (almost everything is yellow or green). It is very likely the guide will be done by this year (lmao). Of course, the more you help the faster I'll finish it.

I'd like your help for Lucario's moveset as I requested before, since there's always missing information that I may skip for being too obvious or just simply ignore. If you guys want anything specific to be discussed in the guide please ask or share your opinion here. As of now, I'm working on the latter parts of the guide, and I would really apreciate it if you guys could give me some input on:

• Jab
• Grabs, Pummel, and Throws
• Specials (Without aura charges)

Thanks again!

 

[Denjinpachi]

Guide plz. Plz Guide. I really want to have a Lucario in PM. But no one really gives a solid base on where to start. I just want to have a solid work to reference this character with, especially since now the meta will start to solidify in coming months. I main Sheik, but Lucario is the closest "Capcom" character I can get my hands on in this game. I'll be watching this guide development closely.

 

[UCDGhost]

FSmash > A uses an aura charge and throws them very much farther. double team cancels with an aura charge whose only real application goes toward an easy approach (considering Lucario has very few approaches)

By Fsmash, I believe you mean side-b, which an aura charged command grab can kill as early as 90% at times, along with the increased damage and knockback if just the normal side-b charged attack hits.

Also, the down-b canceled in the air has a huge application with horizontal movement. It can even be used off-stage as a great horizontal recovery. So keep in mind, it is more than just an approach option.

Hope you keep messing around with Lucario though! There's a lot to him. I've only been playing for about 7-8 months, so I don't know everything, but I'm glad to help.

 

[Gooch]

PIVOT UPTILT IS BROKEN

 

[Yeh]

Yeh