Work In Progress Perfect setups (TV/monitor, console, capture device)

[Kadano]

Can you tell me what is the best and 2nd best set up for Melee in regards to...

Gamecube out to >> Projector for the audience, Line to Capture Card, plus Line to the TV the players are playing on?

What about the original Wii? What's the best possible set up or 2nd best possible set up for that? I'm going to be running a tournament in a few months and if I can't get my hands on Gamecubes, I have friends who have Wii's that haven't been touched for almost 5-6 years. So I can just buy theirs off their hands for dirt cheap or even free and that would be my backup plan.
I personally have an original 2001 Gamecube, but I don't want to use it that much just for my personal sentimental reasons haha.

It’s not that simple. When you say “projector”, “capture card” and “TV”, I don’t know what kind of model you are talking about and which video signals it supports. You need to provide more and precise information.
When you want to use three outputs, you need distribution amplifiers of some sort (YPbPr or RGBHV). Like I wrote in the OP, the (inofficial) Wii VGA cables don’t support that. It might be possible when using a YPbPr→RGBHV converter, but I don’t own one so I can’t say for sure.

Under the premise that a Wii must be used, I would probably choose one of these signal paths:

1. Wii → YPbPr D-Terminal cables → XCAPTURE-1 → D-Terminal to BNC out → Sony PVM-20L5 or PVM-20M7MDE → passthrough outputs connected to the projector (as YPbPr or converted to RGBHV with a converter, if necessary; depends on the projector you use)
2. Wii → YPbPr RCA cables → YPbPr to RGBHV converter (with a D-SUB HD15 (“VGA”) connector) → RGBHV distribution amplifier with four outputs → capture card (XCAPTURE-1 or PEXHDCAP or SC512N1-L/DVI) + CRT PC monitor + projector

Prices for option 1: 15$+308$+20$+200$ (+40$ if you need the RGBHV converter) = 543-583$

Alternatively, you can go for the SC512N1-L/DVI instead of the XCAPTURE-1 if you have enough space within your desktop computer. You won’t need the D-Terminal stuff this way, might reduce total cost by a few dollars.

Prices for option 2: 5$+40$+20$+130$ (if you go with StarTech PEXHDCAP) = 195$. CRT PC monitors are available for 0-20$ so I assumed you’ll be able to find one or two for free.

The XCAPTURE-1 has issues when it comes to handling certain color spaces and full/limited range discrepancies. You can correct for it in software. I usually run my footage through an alias filter in VirtualDub to correct recordings when I have to, and if I wasn't lazy then I could edit the shaders in OBS to fix it as I stream. For the Xbox 360, I just change the console's color space to YCbCr601 and that compensates for the error. (I sure wish the Wii U had meaningful video options...)

Oh, that sounds like they haven’t improved anything in these regards from the SC-500 / PEXHDCAP that I currently use. I have configured the drivers like this:

Do you use these drivers as well or have you found a different version to work better? And do you think that my settings are configured properly or did I make some sub-par choices?

The XRGB-3 is used in this setup simply to convert component to VGA. The upscaling mode isn't used. (The XRGB-3's upscaler mode has about 1.5 frames of lag. The linedoubler mode has close to 0 lag and either doubles the resolution of 15khz sources or simply does a color space conversion for 31khz sources.)

Considering you have Gamecube D-Terminal cables already, couldn’t you simply modify them for RGBHV / VGA output and avoid the XRGB-3 altogether? And use the Mayflash Wii VGA cables if you stream Brawl / PM?

But I guess you’ve owned the XRGB-3 already for other consoles, so soldering on precious Gamecube DAC cables is something you prefer to avoid?

 

[Sixfortyfive]

FYI: I'm pretty sure that Startech have released a clone of the XCAPTURE-1 recently. It was missing some features (passthrough in particular, IIRC), but it's probably significantly cheaper.

And do you think that my settings are configured properly or did I make some sub-par choices?

- Use the "Weave" option for deinterlacing, especially if your source is actually 240p. The other methods always have some loss of picture information. They can be justified for content that is actually 480i, but I figure that there are better software deinterlacing methods out there. (FWIW, I don't actually capture 480i footage that often, so I don't have much experience using these options beyond some initial testing I did when I first got the device.)

- Only use "Auto Resolution Scaling" when you're playing a game that actually switches resolutions on the fly, or if you really need to switch sources of varying resolutions without stopping your stream/capture. Auto-scaled footage often has extra screen tearing.

Considering you have Gamecube D-Terminal cables already, couldn’t you simply modify them for RGBHV / VGA output and avoid the XRGB-3 altogether? And use the Mayflash Wii VGA cables if you stream Brawl / PM?

But I guess you’ve owned the XRGB-3 already for other consoles, so soldering on precious Gamecube DAC cables is something you prefer to avoid?

It's just not worth hacking up a $100+ cable for one specific setup for minimal gains. For normal play, I just plug the Gamecube into my main TV via a simple D-terminal > component adapter anyway.

Are the Mayflash Wii VGA cables you're talking about noteworthy at all? It's my understanding that the Wii doesn't output RGBHV in the first place and that I might as well plug that system into the XRGB-3 as well if I want VGA out.

 

[Kadano]

- Only use "Auto Resolution Scaling" when you're playing a game that actually switches resolutions on the fly, or if you really need to switch sources of varying resolutions without stopping your stream/capture. Auto-scaled footage often has extra screen tearing.

I had enabled that option because I want to have the RGB32 output (which TheThrillness described as having better video quality and less lag for some reason). Is RGB32 still available when the auto-res toggle is off?

Are the Mayflash Wii VGA cables you're talking about noteworthy at all? It's my understanding that the Wii doesn't output RGBHV in the first place and that I might as well plug that system into the XRGB-3 as well if I want VGA out.

Considering that they are only 20$-ish, they are by far the cheapest option to get Melee with proper colors on PC monitors. It works both with LCDs and CRTs. It does convert the Wii’s YPbPr to RGBHV, using the power output the Wii’s Multi-AV provides.
However, it seems to do some non-standard things—like I mentioned before, it cannot be dist-amped. I have three VGA distribution amplifiers, one by Extron and two by Digitus (cheap), and all of these work perfectly fine with Gamecube VGA cables, but always output a black image with the Mayflash cables. I don’t know if it will work with the XCAPTURE-1‘s amped pass-through. (And also, I’m not willing to buy one just to find out, haha.)

 

[WarioWaft]

It’s not that simple. When you say “projector”, “capture card” and “TV”, I don’t know what kind of model you are talking about and which video signals it supports. You need to provide more and precise information.
When you want to use three outputs, you need distribution amplifiers of some sort (YPbPr or RGBHV). Like I wrote in the OP, the (inofficial) Wii VGA cables don’t support that. It might be possible when using a YPbPr→RGBHV converter, but I don’t own one so I can’t say for sure.

Under the premise that a Wii must be used, I would probably choose one of these signal paths:

1. Wii → YPbPr D-Terminal cables → XCAPTURE-1 → D-Terminal to BNC out → Sony PVM-20L5 or PVM-20M7MDE → passthrough outputs connected to the projector (as YPbPr or converted to RGBHV with a converter, if necessary; depends on the projector you use)
2. Wii → YPbPr RCA cables → YPbPr to RGBHV converter (with a D-SUB HD15 (“VGA”) connector) → RGBHV distribution amplifier with four outputs → capture card (XCAPTURE-1 or PEXHDCAP or SC512N1-L/DVI) + CRT PC monitor + projector

Prices for option 1: 15$+308$+20$+200$ (+40$ if you need the RGBHV converter) = 543-583$

Alternatively, you can go for the SC512N1-L/DVI instead of the XCAPTURE-1 if you have enough space within your desktop computer. You won’t need the D-Terminal stuff this way, might reduce total cost by a few dollars.

Prices for option 2: 5$+40$+20$+130$ (if you go with StarTech PEXHDCAP) = 195$. CRT PC monitors are available for 0-20$ so I assumed you’ll be able to find one or two for free.

Thanks for the response.

I'm going to run a tournament, and for now at least will only have one main projector that will be the main set up station for the big matches (it will be Smash 4 + Melee).

What can I buy that I don't have to spend an arm and a leg, to where I can have Melee whether it be Gamecube or Wii, and be able to split the signal (in this case amplify the signal) to go to the big projector + capture card + player TV? I'll spend money to where I don't have to to use Composite, but I don't have the budget to acquire the items to make it as star studded digitally as you've described. That will be down the road when I acquire more funding.
In a perfect world I would just attach a laptop to the projector and just show the feed from Twitch, but because of that long delay from live to twitch stream, it isn't ideal. I can live with a minor delay from what the crowd sees on the projector. I only care about the players not experiencing delay on their playing screen.

Another option I've considered, is use multi-monitoring on my desktop (the broadcast control center), and running a long cable to the projector and displaying the live broadcast in that window, or just air that particular incoming source in that window.

 

[ShortFuse]

I wrote the guide @TheCrimsonBlur linked to before. I have a PVML5. Comparing the PVML5 to a Sony MultiScan 200ES with a StarTech Component to VGA converter yielded something around 0.1ms of lag. I'm not sure this is even the adapter's fault, and it's probably the monitor.

Also, just going to point out the Panasonic Q has an optical SPDIF port, so you can have true lossless, digital audio. Also, the GC component adapter also outputs digital SPDIF audio but you'd need some modification to get it to output over toslink.

Last, I don't know where you're getting 4ms for all LCDs. There's nothing inherent in LCD technology that would say that.

You should look at Fizzi's test results when LCDs versus CRTs and getting as low as 2ms: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/195A1jtVAKUrzmnrP9xOxryHx1pa_9_ng0yFWB03yV_o/

 

[Kadano]

I wrote the guide @TheCrimsonBlur linked to before. I have a PVML5. Comparing the PVML5 to a Sony MultiScan 200ES with a StarTech Component to VGA converter yielded something around 0.1ms of lag. I'm not sure this is even the adapter's fault, and it's probably the monitor.

I’m more inclined to think it’s the adapter’s fault; it does analog→digital→analog conversion after all, as far as I know. Also, prad’s input lag article found a CRT PC monitor to lag 670 nanoseconds, which is a lot less than 0.1 milliseconds, and I don’t see a reason why some CRT PC monitor models should have digital signal processing or other laggy stuff going on.

Also, just going to point out the Panasonic Q has an optical SPDIF port, so you can have true lossless, digital audio. Also, the GC component adapter also outputs digital SPDIF audio but you'd need some modification to get it to output over toslink.

Okay, thanks, but I think I’ve read somewhere that it only works for DVDs, not for Gamecube games. Do you own one and can confirm that it works for Gamecube games as well?

Additionally, do you know whether the signal from the Gamecube digital cables chip can be directly connected as coaxial digital audio? Toslink needs power for the optical output, but I (as a layman) would guess electrical digital audio shouldn’t need further alteration.

Last, I don't know where you're getting 4ms for all LCDs. There's nothing inherent in LCD technology that would say that.

You should look at Fizzi's test results when LCDs versus CRTs and getting as low as 2ms: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/195A1jtVAKUrzmnrP9xOxryHx1pa_9_ng0yFWB03yV_o/

I didn’t say that 4 ms were inherent, I said this was the amount that current fast LCDs have. My source for that are prad monitor reviews (as I have linked in the OP), which, as far as I can tell, have the most precise and advanced way to measure input lag.

I did edit the OP to the value of two milliseconds. I am not nearly knowledgeable enough about this stuff to tell whether Fizzi’s testing method is as reliable as prad’s, so I’m relying on your judgment here.

 

[ShortFuse]

snip

The adapter does straight YPbPr to RGBHV with no features whatsoever. I've never looked into how it's doing by cracking it open. I've seen other ones do with a bunch of post process features like saturation, brightness, contrast, upscaling, etc and I picked the one that didn't do any of that. The reason why it could be the monitor is because even CRTs are suspect to latency from things such as comb filtering. I honestly suspected the PVM to be slower because it has a bunch of color adjustment options.

But the main reason I posted it was to show that YPbPr to RGBHV could be negligible (less than 0.1 milliseconds) and open up CRT PC monitor aspect if your monitor doesn't natively support YPbPr over DB15 (VGA).

As for the GameCube optical out, I'll check when I get home. The modification to the component cable can use power from the GameCube but it's really complicated.

I actually modeled my lag measurements based in SMTT, which is what prad.de uses, and made a homebrew app on the Wii to fully test it. The dual analog output was fine for using a high ISO camera and two 480i CRTs. The PVM, as you know, has a built in splitter so I used that for 480p vs 480p.

The problem was that you can't simultaneously output 480p and 480i so I had no method of comparing a 480i CRT to a 480p CRT. I just had to have faith that 480p was just as fast on my PVM as 480i.

Fizzi came along and I helped him refine his original process of taking high FPS video but basically, it uses photosensors, a Wii homebrew app, and an arduino. Basically it's the rock band 2 method of comparing the white flash of the screen to the photo sensor on the arduino signaled by an audio frequency outputted by the homebrew app on the Wii.

It showed that some CRTs are slower than others. Also, we had real world numbers for 480p on LCDs, since most tests done are at 1080p. 2ms over CRT is pretty damn good. Some people might opt for that if they find out it's that low (and not 10ms).

One thing to add is CRTs generally have better color output. Nothing beats a reference CRT in color reproduction when dealing with BT601

Edit: Said amiibo instead of arduino. lol

 

[Kadano]

YPbPr to RGBH

Your post gave me the idea for a much simpler solution. We know that shortening the pins 8 and 10 of the Wii Multi-AV plug switches to YPbPr output. If these are not bridged, my PAL Wiis reverts to standard RGB output. As most / all CRT PC monitors accept RGsB (composite sync sent over the green line), we would only need to force the Wii to 480p to output proper 480p RGsB.

Unfortunately, the 8+10 bridging seems to always instruct both “output YPbPr on pins 7+9+11“ and “switch to 480p output”. In reverse, undoing the 8+10 connection always instructs “output RGB (PAL) / S-Video on pins 7+9+11” and “switch to 480i output”.
When I started PAL Melee through USB Loader GX with the “force 480p” setting on, switching from a 8+10 bridged cable to a non-bridged cable simply did not change anything. The loader settings apparently prevented the Wii from checking for pins 8 and 10 any longer.

So the only solution for easy PC CRT monitor support I can think of is having someone write a code for the loader programs that separates the Wii’s YPbPr and 480p instructions. I believe this to be very hard to do, though, since the Wii was not designed to do that. It will probably be easier to open the Wii and modify the digital→analog video converter chip as is done for Gamecube component cables.

In case someone does manage to do this, it would be a pretty big thing, in my opinion. Lagless 480p Melee setups would be cheaper than ever. Used Wii with broken disk drive (40$) + component cables (5$) + component→VGA adapter (5$) + 2GB SD card (3$) = 53$ for a complete setup that can be upgraded to multi-monitor mode (20$ for the additional distribution amplifier) and high-quality recording and streaming (130$ for StarTech PEXHDCAP or 300$ for Micomsoft SC512N1-L/DVI).

Additionally, this should have just as little lag as the Gamecube DAC solution. I’m not saying that 0.1ms are bad, but if we have the possibility to avoid using external converters, I think we should go for it.

This is all theoretical in nature until someone manages to write up that code. I just want to get this out here so people will notice / look out for if a Wii modder has success with it.

Edit: So, it turned out my Mayflash Wii VGA cable was a knockoff. This made me buy two official Mayflash products, the proper Wii VGA cable (VGA005) and a USB-powered converter (VGA004). Both work just like the knockoff cable—proper picture on single monitor, black screen when connected to a distribution amplifier.

My next bet is an Extron 164xi RGB interface that might clean up the sync levels. I’m gonna pay 40€ for it.

@ ShortFuse if you have a VGA distribution amplifier, could you hook up a Wii with component cables and the StarTech converter to it and tell me whether the amped outputs are proper (work on CRT monitors)? That would be very helpful. =)

 

[WarioWaft]

S-Video, pah.

You don’t need a Q for that. PAL Gamecubes output 480i over composite, component and RGB-SCART (>>S-Video) at the same time if you have the right cables. I suppose NTSC Gamecubes should be able to do the same with composite, S-Video and component as well.
Here is a video I did back then when my recording setup was 480i:

The connection worked like this:
Hacked PAL Gamecube
RGB-SCART out connected to 16:9 Sony CRT TV
Component out connected to a 16€ USB capture device (only 14€ right now)
(Raw capture, deinterlaced with QTGMC, preset fast, I think (60fps version is being uploaded to Archive.org right now, but it’s almost 1GB so this will take a while))

Question, since this is PAL (I know 16:9 was standard for PAL long before the US has been slow to adopt it), does that gamecube output 16:9 by default?

I'd kill to use 16:9 instead of 4:3 for my upcoming tournament broadcasts so my Melee broadcast layout could theoretically be interchangeable with Smash U.

 

[Kadano]

Question, since this is PAL (I know 16:9 was standard for PAL long before the US has been slow to adopt it), does that gamecube output 16:9 by default?

I'd kill to use 16:9 instead of 4:3 for my upcoming tournament broadcasts so my Melee broadcast layout could theoretically be interchangeable with Smash U.

Nah, back then I used a Sony Trinitron widescreen TV (KV-28WX1D) with a hacked Gamecube that loaded a Melee disc with a 16:9 DOL mod. For the recording file, I had to crop the video file from 720×480 to 640×480 and then stretch it to 854×480 (16:9 aspect).
Depending on how your capture card works, you’ll have to manually stretch the video source to match aspect ratio in OBS so Melee is displayed as 16:9 properly.

 

[WarioWaft]

Nah, back then I used a Sony Trinitron widescreen TV (KV-28WX1D) with a hacked Gamecube that loaded a Melee disc with a 16:9 DOL mod. For the recording file, I had to crop the video file from 720×480 to 640×480 and then stretch it to 854×480 (16:9 aspect).
Depending on how your capture card works, you’ll have to manually stretch the video source to match aspect ratio in OBS so Melee is displayed as 16:9 properly.

Ok, that's what I was wondering. It looked like it was cropped, but I was just curious if PAL game cubes actually output Melee at 16:9 as standard. Video looks cropped but it also doesn't look stretched.

So that's just a hack?

 

[Dryillic]

First off, what a cool thread! Awesome work guys!

Recently, I have tried to get melee working on the Wii U and have some relative success. The play itself feels nice and is seemingly less than a frame of lag. I'm not sure myself how I would measure that.. I ditched the official nintendo adapters because of the lag they induce and swapped them with a 2 Raphnet GC to USB adapters. However, Nintendont has yet to add the feature of two HID controllers (not sure?) so 2-4 player doesn't work. I'm currently waiting on the support or a solution so I decided to ditch that method for now.

In case someone does manage to do this, it would be a pretty big thing, in my opinion. Lagless 480p Melee setups would be cheaper than ever. Used Wii with broken disk drive (40$) + component cables (5$) + component→VGA adapter (5$) + 2GB SD card (3$) = 53$ for a complete setup that can be upgraded to multi-monitor mode (20$ for the additional distribution amplifier) and high-quality recording and streaming (130$ for StarTech PEXHDCAP or 300$ for Micomsoft SC512N1-L/DVI).

I may just use this method for streaming and playing in 480p. I already have component cables to begin with too. I had a chat with another streamer who basically had alternatives that were too expensive for my small stream and/or "imperfect" (not real 480p). As far as cheap alternatives go, this seems like the right move. If it doesn't work I can always return most of it (based Amazon) or bite the bullet.

I would also like to investigate some 1080i crts (EDTVs?) that are on sale. I have found two that I can feasibly make the drive to pick up/test them. My only worry is the lag from some processing everyone is talking about. So far the two models I'm looking at are: Sony KV-40XBR700 and Phillips 30PW8420. How would I go about testing these crts without buying them? If anyone has experience with 1080i crts please let me know if these both work without lag.

 

[Kadano]

Recently, I have tried to get melee working on the Wii U and have some relative success. The play itself feels nice and is seemingly less than a frame of lag. I'm not sure myself how I would measure that.. I ditched the official nintendo adapters because of the lag they induce and swapped them with a 2 Raphnet GC to USB adapters. However, Nintendont has yet to add the feature of two HID controllers (not sure?) so 2-4 player doesn't work. I'm currently waiting on the support or a solution so I decided to ditch that method for now.

I don’t have a Wii U and no need for one, so I don’t know much about it. I have read that Nintendont has innate lag, though. I think it’s unlikely that the official Nintendo GCC adapter induces lag.

I may just use this method for streaming and playing in 480p. I already have component cables to begin with too. I had a chat with another streamer who basically had alternatives that were too expensive for my small stream and/or "imperfect" (not real 480p). As far as cheap alternatives go, this seems like the right move. If it doesn't work I can always return most of it (based Amazon) or bite the bullet.

I hope you do realize that the proposed setup you quoted is theoretical. It’s not possible currently, unless you can write low-level hardware instruction code for the Wii.
As it is now, you need to at least exchange the component→VGA adapter with a component→VGA converter. The difference is that the adapter is only mechanical while the converter has chips and other electronics that re-calculate the signals.

I managed to pull proper splittable RGBHV / VGA from my Wii with Mayflash VGA cables (both their Wii VGA cables and their component→VGA converter work) and an Extron 164xi RGB interface (I paid 40€ for it, should be cheaper in the US though). The RGB interface is necessary to clean up the sync signal so the video can be dist-amped.
Total cost for Wii VGA cables and the Extron 164xi was 60€. Note that the 164xi has three video outputs (2x 6BNC and 1x VGA, both carrying RGBHV video), so you don’t even need a dist amp with this one.
The alternative is the StarTech comp2vga converter, but that one sells for something like 80$. It probably outputs slightly higher quality video than the Mayflash products though, so I think it’s well worth the money.

I would also like to investigate some 1080i crts (EDTVs?) that are on sale. I have found two that I can feasibly make the drive to pick up/test them. My only worry is the lag from some processing everyone is talking about. So far the two models I'm looking at are: Sony KV-40XBR700 and Phillips 30PW8420. How would I go about testing these crts without buying them? If anyone has experience with 1080i crts please let me know if these both work without lag.

Don’t buy these is my advice. I’ve read a lot about these late era HD CRT TVs lagging a lot. Modern LCD monitors are faster even. What do you want 1080i for? If you want to play Smash 4 on it, I’d rather recommend a Sony PVM-20L5 (does up to 720p60) or any higher-end CRT PC monitor (does 1080p60 easily). Or some of the newer LCD monitors with low lag, although I personally still avoid them because I want to limit my lag to the lowest amount possible with good image quality and prefer the picture of CRTs for Melee.

 

[Dryillic]

I don’t have a Wii U and no need for one, so I don’t know much about it. I have read that Nintendont has innate lag, though. I think it’s unlikely that the official Nintendo GCC adapter induces lag.

It may be related to inconsistent settings, but after testing the nintendo controller adapter and the raphnet, the raphnet adapter had a notably less lag. In any event I want to ditch playing this way of playing mainly because I don't own the Wii U and wanted to help out a friend.

I hope you do realize that the proposed setup you quoted is theoretical. It’s not possible currently, unless you can write low-level hardware instruction code for the Wii. As it is now, you need to at least exchange the component→VGA adapter with a component→VGA converter.

Whoops! I meant to quote the earlier setup with the converter. Maybe someday I'll tackle the problem because it sounds interesting and is relatable to my studies.

Don’t buy these is my advice. I’ve read a lot about these late era HD CRT TVs lagging a lot. Modern LCD monitors are faster even. What do you want 1080i for? If you want to play Smash 4 on it, I’d rather recommend a Sony PVM-20L5 (does up to 720p60) or any higher-end CRT PC monitor (does 1080p60 easily).

Thanks for the info. I will try and avoid these. 1080i just merely gave me the implication that it can handle 480p inputs. The elusive lagless EDTV is difficult to come by.

As for the professional monitors... I will have to keep searching but the PVM-20L5, along with other 480p capable BVM and PVM models, consistently run up 400$+. I'll just have to wait for some local pickup I guess.

 

[Mikkelmann]

This is helpful thanks!

 

[WarioWaft]

I

Hey Kadano, I'm not sure if I asked you this question previously, but what would be the best set up for Melee if one does not want to unload $200+ for the Gamecube Component Cable? I assume the Wii component cable does not work for Gamecube?

If that's the case, what should I go with?
Gamecube - S-video?
Wii - Component?

I just bought a few gamecubes at the flea market for about $10 a piece and they include the digital port. But I don't want to shell out that much money for the rare OEM component cables. So I'm wondering if I should just go after some cheap original Wii's with gamecube ports on them and use the Component cables with them.

 

[Kadano]

Hey Kadano, I'm not sure if I asked you this question previously, but what would be the best set up for Melee if one does not want to unload $200+ for the Gamecube Component Cable? I assume the Wii component cable does not work for Gamecube?

If that's the case, what should I go with?
Gamecube - S-video?
Wii - Component?

I just bought a few gamecubes at the flea market for about $10 a piece and they include the digital port. But I don't want to shell out that much money for the rare OEM component cables. So I'm wondering if I should just go after some cheap original Wii's with gamecube ports on them and use the Component cables with them.

It depends on what you want it to do. If you only want to play, the $20 Mayflash Wii VGA cable and a $0 CRT monitor are, in my opinion, your best choice. If you want to record as well, it’s more complicated, as stated in the OP.

 

[WarioWaft]

It depends on what you want it to do. If you only want to play, the $20 Mayflash Wii VGA cable and a $0 CRT monitor are, in my opinion, your best choice. If you want to record as well, it’s more complicated, as stated in the OP.

$0 CRT monitor? lol

What would be more practical of the choices I listed? I've been buying some decent flat screen Sony WEGA tv's.

 

[WarioWaft]

Basicaly Kadano this is what I'm trying to do:

For my tournament set up, I want:
3 TV's and set ups for the stream.
5-8 other gamecubes that won't be streamed just need to be good enough quality for the tournament players on regular CRT tv's.

 

[Kadano]

$0 CRT monitor? lol

What would be more practical of the choices I listed? I've been buying some decent flat screen Sony WEGA tv's.

In my city, there are 20+ 480p60-capable CRT monitors being offered for free currently. I do believe that you will find enough near you if you just keep looking hard enough.

Basicaly Kadano this is what I'm trying to do:

For my tournament set up, I want:
3 TV's and set ups for the stream.
5-8 other gamecubes that won't be streamed just need to be good enough quality for the tournament players on regular CRT tv's.

3 TVs and set ups? Are you intending to host three streams simultaneously? Or do you connect one of them to 3 TVs at once?

 

[WarioWaft]

In my city, there are 20+ 480p60-capable CRT monitors being offered for free currently. I do believe that you will find enough near you if you just keep looking hard enough.


3 TVs and set ups? Are you intending to host three streams simultaneously? Or do you connect one of them to 3 TVs at once?

They will be connected to a master broadcast switcher, so I can switch streams to keep the pace of the broadcast better (ex: switching to a better match if the current one on stream is a blowout). I have background in tv broadcasting production, so the logistics of doing all of this isn't new to me.

My concern is to NOT have to use composite cables for any of the 3 streams, but to find an affordable solution for the 3 set ups.

For the Wii VGA adapter, that's strictly for the first gen Wii's with backwards compatibility for gamecube games? Just want to double check.

I would look into PC monitors(I assume you're referring to), but I wouldn't even know where to start in terms of brands, quality, etc. and tiers (lol).

 

[Kadano]

They will be connected to a master broadcast switcher, so I can switch streams to keep the pace of the broadcast better (ex: switching to a better match if the current one on stream is a blowout). I have background in tv broadcasting production, so the logistics of doing all of this isn't new to me.

My concern is to NOT have to use composite cables for any of the 3 streams, but to find an affordable solution for the 3 set ups.

For the Wii VGA adapter, that's strictly for the first gen Wii's with backwards compatibility for gamecube games? Just want to double check.

I would look into PC monitors(I assume you're referring to), but I wouldn't even know where to start in terms of brands, quality, etc. and tiers (lol).

I see, so effectively every of these three consoles needs to have two outputs—one leading to its CRT the players look on and one leading to the broadcast switcher.
To get it like that, every setup needs to be connected to a distribution amplifier. (Unless your broadcast switcher supports constant passthrough for all three inputs to their respective CRTs? I believe the Extron MVX switches do that, but I’m not sure)
As mentioned in the OP, the VGA from Wii VGA cables is not directly distribution-amplifiable. So you need to either use component cables and the StarTech COMP2VGA adapter ($80-ish) instead or add an Extron RGB interface after every Wii’s VGA cable. Some of these are distribution amplifiers as well, for example the Extron 164xi ($30 used in the USA, afaik), which I own and can confirm working for Wii VGA. It does not use D-sub plugs though, but BNC instead, so depending on your CRTs and broadcast switch you may need to use up to six BNC to D-sub adapters.

Then there’s also the possibility of not using RGBHV/VGA at all and staying with YPbPr/component all the way. The only way to make this work I can think of is to buy three Sony PVM20L5s. That’s likely a much more expensive option, though, with every of these PVMs setting you back $300 or more.

If you go with RGBHV and PC monitors, you need to find some solution for the speaker problem. Either you restrict yourself to buying CRT monitors with speakers, but they are somewhat rare in my experience—only one of my four PC CRT monitors actually has speakers, and their sound is mediocre at best. Using dedicated speakers for every setup is the way to go in my opinion, but whether that’s feasible depends on your venue and the amount of work setting up the cables and stuff you are willing to tolerate.

 

[WarioWaft]

I see, so effectively every of these three consoles needs to have two outputs—one leading to its CRT the players look on and one leading to the broadcast switcher.
To get it like that, every setup needs to be connected to a distribution amplifier. (Unless your broadcast switcher supports constant passthrough for all three inputs to their respective CRTs? I believe the Extron MVX switches do that, but I’m not sure)
As mentioned in the OP, the VGA from Wii VGA cables is not directly distribution-amplifiable. So you need to either use component cables and the StarTech COMP2VGA adapter ($80-ish) instead or add an Extron RGB interface after every Wii’s VGA cable. Some of these are distribution amplifiers as well, for example the Extron 164xi ($30 used in the USA, afaik), which I own and can confirm working for Wii VGA. It does not use D-sub plugs though, but BNC instead, so depending on your CRTs and broadcast switch you may need to use up to six BNC to D-sub adapters.

Then there’s also the possibility of not using RGBHV/VGA at all and staying with YPbPr/component all the way. The only way to make this work I can think of is to buy three Sony PVM20L5s. That’s likely a much more expensive option, though, with every of these PVMs setting you back $300 or more.

If you go with RGBHV and PC monitors, you need to find some solution for the speaker problem. Either you restrict yourself to buying CRT monitors with speakers, but they are somewhat rare in my experience—only one of my four PC CRT monitors actually has speakers, and their sound is mediocre at best. Using dedicated speakers for every setup is the way to go in my opinion, but whether that’s feasible depends on your venue and the amount of work setting up the cables and stuff you are willing to tolerate.

I've already got a Component amp distributor in mind.

I think ultimately what I'm going to go with, is buy Gamecubes for cheap for the non-streamed set ups.

I'm going to go with Wii>>>Component>>>Component Amp>>> One to player TV, other to SDI converter and then to the switcher (which will be quite a distance away).

Of course, if I want to record every match and archive it, I'll need 3 outputs on the distribution amplifier. 1 to the player CRT, 1 to a separate computer + capture card, 1 convert to SDI that goes to the switcher.

Are there any downsides to using the Wii + Wii component cable? I know lag gets talked about with some equipment, but was curious if if some tournaments used Wii set ups over gamecubes and if there was a frame lag issue.

 

[Kadano]

I've already got a Component amp distributor in mind.

I think ultimately what I'm going to go with, is buy Gamecubes for cheap for the non-streamed set ups.

I'm going to go with Wii>>>Component>>>Component Amp>>> One to player TV, other to SDI converter and then to the switcher (which will be quite a distance away).

Of course, if I want to record every match and archive it, I'll need 3 outputs on the distribution amplifier. 1 to the player CRT, 1 to a separate computer + capture card, 1 convert to SDI that goes to the switcher.

Are there any downsides to using the Wii + Wii component cable? I know lag gets talked about with some equipment, but was curious if if some tournaments used Wii set ups over gamecubes and if there was a frame lag issue.

So you already have three 480p-YPbPr capable CRT TVs? May I ask which ones exactly they are? EDTVs like that are non-existent in Europe and are said to be even really rare in the USA.

I’m not quite following you on the signal chain here. The switcher has three inputs connected—one for each Wii—and one output to the streaming setup, right? Why would you add another separate computer and capture card?

Wii does not lag compared to Gamecube, but the picture is slightly worse (see posts by @ S Sixfortyfive ).

 

[WarioWaft]

So you already have three 480p-YPbPr capable CRT TVs? May I ask which ones exactly they are? EDTVs like that are non-existent in Europe and are said to be even really rare in the USA.

I’m not quite following you on the signal chain here. The switcher has three inputs connected—one for each Wii—and one output to the streaming setup, right? Why would you add another separate computer and capture card?

Wii does not lag compared to Gamecube, but the picture is slightly worse (see posts by @ S Sixfortyfive ).

I would add a separate computer and capture card specifically for recording the entire match separately and save it for archiving later on, as opposed to just having the game go to the master switcher and only record when I've selected it on screen.

The set up would be:

Wii Component Out
to
Component Dist Amplifier
to

• Player CRT TV
• Laptop + Capture Card
• Component to SDI converter, that runs to the production switcher.
• Overhead Projector for Audience (for the main set up)

Note, if I want to record Smash 4, I could probably just ask the players to save the replay for each match and capture it later on (only issue would be no player name tags above characters in replay).

This model has gotten a lot of great reviews on Amazon

 

[Dryillic]

So I came across some interesting threads with some cool gamecube mods. I'm thinking of trying out both projects as they don't seem too difficult as long as you can solder smd components. I'm sure some of you already know about these but I just wanted to bounce some ideas off you guys as I am rather inexperienced with modding in general.

The first project is a nice GC component cable clone I found. (http://www.gc-forever.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=2500) Again not sure about the measured lag (if any) but I figured I might as well give it a shot because pcb's are rather fun to make. In addition, I am not willing to dish out ~+200$ dollars for a GC component cable(hooray for being cheap!).

The second project is a short DOL-101 gamecube mod where someone was able to find the leads that connect to the digital port of the DOL-001 on a DOL-101 gamecube. (http://forums.modretro.com/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=13251) It would be cool if this works in conjunction with the GC component clone, if is doesn't work then DOL-001 gamecubes are not hard to acquire.

 

[Binx]

Kadano is it possible to use a usb gamecube adapter and dolphin to play melee on an HDTV with under a frame of lag? I definitely prefer the look of CRTs but they just take up too much space for me right now and I'm looking to find ways to have more than a single set up in my home for when I have smash fests that wont cripple anyways game feel.

Is it possible to play on an HD TV from a gamecube, wii or wiiu without lag?

I'm also curious if we can find a solution for more modern set ups at tournaments in the future.

 

[Kadano]

Kadano is it possible to use a usb gamecube adapter and dolphin to play melee on an HDTV with under a frame of lag? I definitely prefer the look of CRTs but they just take up too much space for me right now and I'm looking to find ways to have more than a single set up in my home for when I have smash fests that wont cripple anyways game feel.

Is it possible to play on an HD TV from a gamecube, wii or wiiu without lag?

I'm also curious if we can find a solution for more modern set ups at tournaments in the future.

HDTV is unlikely. If you have one of the high-end ASUS or BenQ gaming monitors, it should be possible, though. When you look at my recent post on it, I measured Dolphin total input lag (controller+console+monitor) on a CRT PC monitor, and it was close to the averages of the standard 480i CRT setup (well within the error range of my testing method, which isn’t very precise)(look at the lower avg row, Dolphin 1080p is with Windows Aero and vsync disabled).
These values are likely to be slightly increased by the random <16 ms VGA output delay on my PC (as proven by prad.de’s elaborate testing). Most or all PC GPUs have a random delay of 0-16.67 ms on the VGA output compared to the digital signals, so for a Dolphin setup, having a fast LCD is actually slightly better than CRT. (It’s possible that Intel’s integrated graphics do not have this random delay, but it hasn’t been proven and I don’t have the $100k tools to do this myself; with Skylake’s iGPU improvements, it might become a possibility to do this though.)
If you can, try to get an 120 fps or 144 fps monitor. If I am not mistaken, it should be able to pipe new frames from Dolphin faster when set to 120/144 fps than when set to 60 fps, since you can effectively decrease the pseudo-lag from the continuous vertical scanning this way.

 

[jmlee337]

I've got some data for this thread concerning latency. I have access to an oscilloscope, so I've been able to get some precise numbers on some of the devices I own, relevantly the BM Intensity Shuttle USB 3.0 and the Mayflash VGA005

First the BM Intensity Shuttle. I checked the four combinations of composite and component input/passthrough. You can see pics here
Audio: 20ns
Composite to composite: 175us
Composite to component: 177us
Component to composite: 60us
Component to component: 17us (about 0.1% of a frame)

And the Mayflash VGA005. Pics here
The good news is it appears to be 100% latency free.
The bad news, at least on the unit I have, is that there's a visible blue tint on low levels. Plus horizontal color bleed in the blues themselves.

I have a Startech CPNT2VGAA coming. I'll be able to measure its latency (if any) once it arrives within this week.

 

[Kadano]

I've got some data for this thread concerning latency. I have access to an oscilloscope, so I've been able to get some precise numbers on some of the devices I own, relevantly the BM Intensity Shuttle USB 3.0 and the Mayflash VGA005

First the BM Intensity Shuttle. I checked the four combinations of composite and component input/passthrough. You can see pics here
Audio: 20ns
Composite to composite: 175us
Composite to component: 177us
Component to composite: 60us
Component to component: 17us (about 0.1% of a frame)

And the Mayflash VGA005. Pics here
The good news is it appears to be 100% latency free.
The bad news, at least on the unit I have, is that there's a visible blue tint on low levels. Plus horizontal color bleed in the blues themselves.

I have a Startech CPNT2VGAA coming. I'll be able to measure its latency (if any) once it arrives within this week.

Thank you so much! I have the Mayflash VGA005 as well, and while it always felt lagless to me, I still disliked the fact that I was putting a device between Wii and CRT monitor for which I didn’t know its amount of lag. It’s great to know that it’s lagless for sure.

I think the minor color problems aren’t too bad. Wii 480p is worse than Gamecube even before VGA conversion, so people who want the best video quality will go the Gamecube direct VGA-mod cable route anyway.

Do you by chance happen to have access to Extron devices? They are very useful for high quality Melee and PM video, so it would be great to have a confirmation that they are lagless as well. Especially the 164xi and similar RGB interfaces (which clean up Mayflash VGA converters’ sync levels so they can be distribution-amplified) and the MVX matrix switches.

Also, what features does an oscilloscope need to have in order to work for these tests? I’m guessing two separate inputs is a must, but I’m not sure about the necessary MHz.

 

[jmlee337]

For the VGA005 (at least my unit), I wouldn't call the color problems minor. It's a very noticeable tint on dark stages like BF and parts of FD. The color bleed also makes solid blue bits like Puff's bow look odd. I'll post some pics later. It might just be the unit I got anyway.

I might look to check out some Extron devices from Ebay as a follow-up, but no definite plans right now (since a lot of this has come out of putting together my own 'perfect-ish' setup). The next thing I have in mind is to examine controller signals and look into extending NintendoSpy to 4 controllers on a single arduino for stream purposes.

Unless oscilloscopes have an unintuitive relation between frequency and period, you can just relate your desired resolution (in us/ns whatever) to the appropriate frequency. I used a 100MHz scope, so it has 10ns resolution. Considering the quoted number of CRTs having 670ns of natural latency, 1us resolution would probably suffice for our purposes. That would be a 1MHz scope? I don't think I've come across any that go that low actually, but my experience is pretty limited. The most common values I've seen are 100 and 10MHz.

But yeah, two inputs is a must. Run/hold functionality and cursors and such I imagine are standard features.

 

[Kadano]

For the VGA005 (at least my unit), I wouldn't call the color problems minor. It's a very noticeable tint on dark stages like BF and parts of FD. The color bleed also makes solid blue bits like Puff's bow look odd. I'll post some pics later. It might just be the unit I got anyway.

I have a Mayflash VGA005 as well. So far, I only used it for a secondary Project M setup where I didn’t notice any obvious color problems, but I didn’t ever look for any. Now that I compared its Melee CSS to direct component and VGA, it looks really horrible. There is noise everywhere and colors look washed out. Can’t see a blue tint, though. Will take pics soon.
I just now tried to compare the Gamecube-YPbPr → VGA005 output to the Gamecube DAC-VGA-mod and native Gamecube YPbPr, all fed to a Yuan SC500 / StarTech PEXHDCAP, but my VGA005 refuses to process 240p video, so I can’t take reference shots of the 240p test suite. How did you get yours to work?
If your VGA005 works fine with 240p, could you check that your PCB looks the same as mine? I took pictures of it here.

I might look to check out some Extron devices from Ebay as a follow-up, but no definite plans right now (since a lot of this has come out of putting together my own 'perfect-ish' setup). The next thing I have in mind is to examine controller signals and look into extending NintendoSpy to 4 controllers on a single arduino for stream purposes.

That sounds great, please give us updates in this thread on the Arduino input display!
Out of curiosity, what does your current Melee setup look like?

 

[Kadano]

@ jmlee337 I took some pics of my VGA005’s output: http://imgur.com/a/8y1hv#0

Directly connecting it to my capture card looks horribly noisy and washed out, but running its output through an Extron 164xi (or similar) RGB interface cleans up everything just fine. I added reference snapshots of direct Gamecube YPbPr and VGA as well, and in my opinion the VGA005 looks just as good. (I increased brightness, contrast and saturation driver setting levels, just in case you wonder why it’s so bright.)
Connecting the VGA005 to a CRT directly produces a fine picture without the excessive blur. Attaching it to a dist-amp doesn’t work (every dist-amp output is black), I had to put the Extron 164xi RGB interface in between so that the dist-amp could handle the video.

In any case, I don’t have the blue tint problem, so I guess returning / exchanging your device might be a good idea?

 

[jmlee337]

@ jmlee337 I took some pics of my VGA005’s output: http://imgur.com/a/8y1hv#0

Directly connecting it to my capture card looks horribly noisy and washed out, but running its output through an Extron 164xi (or similar) RGB interface cleans up everything just fine. I added reference snapshots of direct Gamecube YPbPr and VGA as well, and in my opinion the VGA005 looks just as good. (I increased brightness, contrast and saturation driver setting levels, just in case you wonder why it’s so bright.)

...

In any case, I don’t have the blue tint problem, so I guess returning / exchanging your device might be a good idea?

I fixed the blue tint. It was my monitor. It needed to be calibrated or some such and I never let the process finish before because it looks like a black screen for the first 10 seconds.

Anyway, after that the VGA005 is great. I don't have any of the problems it looks like you are having? That might just be my monitor handling the sync signals better than a capture card though? I'll probably check out the VGA004 for simplicity too. Not sure yet how I'll check it for latency though.

I just now tried to compare the Gamecube-YPbPr → VGA005 output to the Gamecube DAC-VGA-mod and native Gamecube YPbPr, all fed to a Yuan SC500 / StarTech PEXHDCAP, but my VGA005 refuses to process 240p video, so I can’t take reference shots of the 240p test suite. How did you get yours to work?

I memorized the inputs to switch the wii version 240p test suite to 480p compatible mode. You have to enable 480p in options once (using some display that can handle 480i), and then on startup it's start, down, a, up, up up, a haha

Out of curiosity, what does your current Melee setup look like?

Wii > component cable > VGA005 > vga cable > Sun Microsystems x7149a

And then if I want to record/stream it's Wii > component cable > BM Intensity Shuttle > component cable > VGA005...

 

[jmlee337]

Good news!

http://imgur.com/FJBdyEW
The Startech CPNT2VGAA is 100% lagless

 

[DRGN]

Sup, Kadano.

I'd like to read this whole thread, but I don't have time right now. However I still wanted to share this: Leo Bodnar Input Lag Tester

Pretty cool. In most cases an oscilloscope would be better/more accurate, but this looks like a good cheap alternative. And it has the advantage of being portable enough that you could take it to store and instantly test floor models. (Also you can easily sample multiple points across the screen.)

Wii > component cable > VGA005 > vga cable > Sun Microsystems x7149a

And then if I want to record/stream it's Wii > component cable > BM Intensity Shuttle > component cable > VGA005...

Why the component cable? I mean, considering the VGA005 already has a Wii connector. So you can use a better quality/separated cable?


Btw, I'm really glad I found this thread. I've been looking for info like this. And a few days ago I was considering buying the VGA005, but it had terrible reviews on amazon. I figured the people probably just didn't know what they were doing and hooking it up to a non-modified NTSC Wii or something (not outputting YPbPr), but I still thought I'd look around a bit more first.

And I must be missing something, but what is the benefit of the CPNT2VGAA over the VGA005? Better picture? Obviously not price.

 

[Kadano]

Sup, Kadano.

I'd like to read this whole thread, but I don't have time right now. However I still wanted to share this: Leo Bodnar Input Lag Tester

Pretty cool. In most cases an oscilloscope would be better/more accurate, but this looks like a good cheap alternative. And it has the advantage of being portable enough that you could take it to store and instantly test floor models. (Also you can easily sample multiple points across the screen.)

Yeah, it looks really neat. I’m not a fan of adding in the delay from vertical scanning into the “input lag” value, though. But that’s a minor thing and can easily be compensated for.

Why the component cable? I mean, considering the VGA005 already has a Wii connector. So you can use a better quality/separated cable?

Btw, I'm really glad I found this thread. I've been looking for info like this. And a few days I was considering buying the VGA005, but it had terrible reviews on amazon. I figured the people probably just didn't know what they were doing and hooking it up to a non-modified NTSC Wii or something (not outputting YPbPr), but still thought I'd look around a bit more first.

And I must be missing something, but what is the benefit of the CPNT2VGAA over the VGA005? Better picture? Obviously not price.

VGA005 doesn’t have a Wii connector. It has three RCA plugs for component and one D-SUB HD15 output for RGBHV (VGA) as well as one mini-USB connector for power.

The VGA004 connects directly to the Wii plug.

CPNT2VGAA might do a better job of cleaning the sync levels, but so far we don’t have comparisons. Both the VGA005 and the CPNT2VGAA work very well when their output is connected to a CRT monitor directly. My VGA005 and VGA004 have very bad quality when connected to a capture card directly and no output at all when connected to a distribution amplifier, but so far no CPNT2VGAA has tested it with dist amps and capture cards.
In either case, getting a VGA005 and an Extron 164xi RGB interface is still cheaper than the CPNT2VGAA, has proper sync levels and 2-3 simultaneous outputs, so I think that will be the better solution for most of us who want to stream / record as well.

 

[DRGN]

Ahh. Are there any other differences between the VGA004 and VGA005?

And do these or the CPNT2VGAA up the 15kHz horizontal scan rate?

 

[Kadano]

Ahh. Are there any other differences between the VGA004 and VGA005?

And do these or the CPNT2VGAA up the 15kHz horizontal scan rate?

VGA004 and VGA005 video quality seems to be the same, although I believe to remember that someone measured the VGA004 to be slightly darker (since it draws power only from the Wii and not from mini-USB). Anyway, both of these look just fine on CRTs.

They do not increase the scan rate. Doing so would incur lag since it would need some kind of pixel buffering.

 

[jmlee337]

Why the component cable? I mean, considering the VGA005 already has a Wii connector. So you can use a better quality/separated cable?

I think you were referring to the VGA004 here? The answer was that I didn't have a VGA004 yet. Mine just came in today. I'm not sure how I can test it for lag, but I would be legitimately shocked and disgusted if it turned out to not be lagless considering the results from the previous two products.

Yeah, it looks really neat. I’m not a fan of adding in the delay from vertical scanning into the “input lag” value, though. But that’s a minor thing and can easily be compensated for.

It also appears to only be available in 720p and 1080p modes on the product page linked in the description.

CPNT2VGAA might do a better job of cleaning the sync levels, but so far we don’t have comparisons. Both the VGA005 and the CPNT2VGAA work very well when their output is connected to a CRT monitor directly. My VGA005 and VGA004 have very bad quality when connected to a capture card directly and no output at all when connected to a distribution amplifier, but so far no CPNT2VGAA has tested it with dist amps and capture cards.
In either case, getting a VGA005 and an Extron 164xi RGB interface is still cheaper than the CPNT2VGAA, has proper sync levels and 2-3 simultaneous outputs, so I think that will be the better solution for most of us who want to stream / record as well.

I looked a little more into how sync signals work for analog video and the differences between YPbPr and RGBHV, so I'll take another look at the units to see what's up with their sync output.

If I had to guess right now, I'd theorize that the VGA004/005 don't bother with any HV sync at all, since that would require a sync separator chip. And effectively output a sync-on-green signal, which monitors can take okay but dist-amps and capture cards can't.

They do not increase the scan rate. Doing so would incur lag since it would need some kind of pixel buffering.

Note that the VGA005 will produce no output for a 15kHz signal, while the CPNT2VGAA will pass it through. Could be relevant if you have a CRT monitor that supports 15kHz, which may or may not be common/exist (I don't know)