Seagull Joe
Smash Legend
ISH EDIT: Enjoy Seagull <3
-
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Wolf Tips **LETS COMBINE OUR MATCH-UP KNOWLEDGE**
- Thread starter Seagull Joe
- Start date
castorpollux
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Dec 19, 2007
- Messages
- 2,502
This is a Wolf community project to help make us all better. As Omniswell stated here when he wanted his video nominated for the video thread:
I will fill out your suggestions to this thread so just post anything you find useful vs. a certain character. I will test this out (and hopefully you guys will also help me test this out) and if it seems really useful, I will update this list with your tips (as well as my own). Hopefully, this thread will make us all better Wolfs.
I will fill this out as time goes by. Btw, if your suggestions seem pretty intuitive to me, I won't add it since it will just be taking up space.
Metaknight
:
-If you get caught in the tornado, Smash DI upwards with the initial hit and shine immediately
-If they approach with the tornado already out you have multiple options:
1) Shield and tilt it up and punish the ending lag (if they aren't too far away)
2) Jumpshine forward as the tornado comes near
3) Dash the opposite direction and do a full hop. If the tornado continues to come near you, you can bair the top corner of it.
-If they d-smash your shield, you can fsmash/dsmash/AAA to punish it, but you have to be quick.
-If they f-smash your shield, don't try to punish it with a ground attack. If the metaknight tends to dsmash after an fsmash on shield, jump OOS and do a dair which will set up for more damage
-If they glide attack your shield, you have frame advantage. You can usually punish it with a shield grab/AAA/dsmash if they space it badly. If they space it well, try to see what they do after the glide attack and punish accordingly.
-Blasters should be used to GET them to approach. Not to build damage. You have to know when to stop blastering so you don't get punished
Snake
:
-If the Snake doesn't cancel his ftilt combo on your shield, you can punish it with an fsmash or a fair OOS
-uthrow/bthrow are very very useful vs. Snake. If Wolf is underneath Snake in the air, Wolf's uair trumps EVERY aerial that Snake has. There is no risk when fighting Snake from underneath as long as you space the uair correctly
-If you activate a shine on a motion sensor mine or grenade, you will not get hurt from it
-I end up landing a dair on Snake more than any other character I play. Always go for the dair spike if you think it's possible. It's worth it.
-Smash DI out of Snake's neutral air. Not only does it prevent you from taking the full 29%, it allows you to punish the Snake =)
Falco
:
-Shine gimp is your best friend. Blastering their jump/side B and shining them works against falcos that aren't experienced vs. Wolf. However, if they are experienced vs. this tactic, they can avoid it by timing the side B and buffering another side B so that it sweetspots the edge after he gets hit by a lazor. I'm still trying to figure out the best way to combat this.
-Learn to DI and tech the CG -> Spike 100% of the time. It's def. worth it because you can fight Falco from the getgo instead of just camping. Laser camping the Falco until he starts reflecting the blasters back at you is STUPID. You are giving him a free 30%-40%. Why not just fight him normally (which will result in you actually damaging Falco) and be sure to DI/tech the cg->spike if you make a mistake.
-If you are not comfortable DIing/teching the cg-> spike, camp a platform until you are over 30% and then go fight in the middle of the stage.
King Dedede
:
-From 0%-2% fthrow -> buffered dtilt (this should trip the DDD) -> stuttered step fsmash combos. Not sure how often you will grab the DDD at 0-2 percent...but hey... it's something.
-Gordos are reflectable
Mr. Game & Watch
:
-You have to be patient while fighting G&W. All his aerials have crazy priority and I think they are mostly disjointed. His smash attacks have very little cooldown lag. Hence, the best way to fight him is to wait for openings such as his landing lag on his aerials.
-If you can, run away from the turtle instead of trying to shield it.
-Shine beats everything G&w does to you. G&W is slow. his aerials are slow, his smashes have a good amount of start-up lag. If you get hit by a smash, you made a mistake.
-If g&w is above you, he will usually key. if he does, jump>shine> back air. be careful to avoid nair juggle and up tilt combos
Marth
:
-Fair OOS his Short hopped Fairs at all times. Your Bair outranges his Fair so use it more than you normally do.
-Watch your DI or everytime you fall on the stage he'll hit with another dancing blade or grab.
-Use your blaster a lot, but like always know the range in which it can be punished by Marth.
-Get up attack from the ledge under 100% can be used to edge guard marth and put him back off the stage.
-If Marth misses a dolphin slash, you can easily punish with up smash and use DACUS if you have to
Diddy Kong
:
-Learn to JC item toss -> Boost Smash consistently. It's a free 23% if the banana trips them
-Shining them off the stage, and then buffering a jumpshine usually results with the loss of a stock for Diddy.
-Learn the JJ combo (DACIT -> anything). I would personally only use this as a stock finisher. If you do it too much, during the match (like at low percents), they will get accustomed to the extremely quick speed of the slide. I would just use the JC item toss -> Boost Smash combo to build up damage instead. BTW, there isn't a cooler Wolf finishing combo than this.
-Learn to DI well. Diddy has a tough time killing Wolf and this is gigantic advantage you should take advantage of. By living up to 200% each stock, it can get really frustrating for Diddy to fight Wolf.
-Throw the bananas down and up if you arent doing the jj combo and stuff. Throwing the bananas horizontally back at diddy gives diddy more bananas to throw at you, cuz its not that hard to regain control over them *(dribble grab or jump grab oos). You can maintain control of them much better if you throw them downwards or upwards.
Wario
:
-His SH Dair will be beaten by your SH Fair and Bair every time. Use your aerial mobility for you in managing to zone Wario. Wario players (good ones) are usually good at reading, so if he's above you, mix up what you do. You also might sometimes want to turn around before shielding, as Wario players love to land behind you...
R.O.B.
:
-Get ROB above you, I can't stress this enough... Wolf is quite good at juggling and ROB underside is a massive weakpoint. Punish airdodges and juggle with Uair and Fair for damage.
Lucario
:
-Jumpshine / jumpshine OOS nullifies all of Lucario's aerial approaches.
Olimar (Candy, what works well vs PyronicStar??)
:
-Fair kills all the pikmin on you, and kills all the pikmin thrown at you (except for the purple one)
Pikachu (Omniswell, help me fill this out)
:
-You can reflect thunder
-Play a small camp fight against the Pika until he thunder jolts you over chain grab percent.
-Do NOT use shine unless the Pika is going for the thunder finish in the air.
-NEVER DI DOWN TO SURVIVE EVER EVER EVER. Dair's lag is sooo bad that you're asking to get thundered by a good pika.
Kirby
:
-Never follow him over the edge
-To get out of the Gonzo combo, SDI the uair and DJ away. For dthrow > utilt, the Kirby will probably predict a shine on the way down after the second dthrow and shieldgrab, so you're probably better off trying to DJ away (unless they catch you with more utilts, in which case I guess all you can do is SDI).
- Aggressively juggle him, and when he is gonna down b follow him and fair or uair him cause there is a time frame between the stone part of kirby's down b where you can attack him before he becomes a rock.
Donkey Kong
:
-Pressure the hell out of DK. His shield is terrible, and bair shield pokes really easily. If you get the DK to become defensive, you basically win.
Ice Climbers
:
-Fighting Iceclimbers involves you just waiting for an opening to separate them, and then continuously punishing them once they are separated. If you get a bair on one of them and they get separated, just freely fsmash/dsmash Nana. If they do manage to get back together, start playing safe again and wait for the next opening.
-Like Falco, learn to DI/tech the CG->Spike thingy that the Iceclimbers like to do.
-If they are in front of you and getting ready for a grab, the AAA combo comes out faster than their grab and can knock them back.
-If you hit them off, aggressively edgeguard them
-If IC's recover High, with an OverB, Prepare for Lasers and Two bairs off the stage. When they recover Low, grab the edge for a nana kill or even a bair if it can be done. Also be aware that Nana's super armor can be used to knock you off the edge.
-Don't get caught above Iceclimbers
-Shine Gimp works against their side B recovery
-Lazoring them at the beginning of their side B will separate them and if they will not be able to recovery properly
-Grab nana near the edge and when popo hits you she falls to her death, or at least thats how its been for me, someone should test this to be 100% sure. I do this when they're both near the edge not when its just nana, thats ridiculous.
Zero Suit Samus
:
-Try not to airdodge when fighting ZSS. She is very very good at punishing airdodges. Shine is usually a better option.
Toon Link
:
Pit
:
-You can punish his fsmash/dsmash with your fsmash or dsmash , dsmash only if you perfect shield the 1st hit for the fsmash.
-Lazor his glide if you can, it really limits his recovery.
-Pit's aerial mobility makes him easy to juggle unless if he uses his up b or has room to glide away.
Peach
:
-Stay in the air. You don't want to get combo'd by her dairs.
Wolf
:
-Intercepting their up B with a shine, and then buffering a jumpshine guarantees a stock.
Luigi
:
-If you are hanging on the ledge and the Luigi used his double jump already and he is below the stage, be ready to fall off and jumpshine the tornado. This will result in a gimp.
-Since he slides so far, bair is safe on shield unless he perfect shields it. He'll spotdodge a lot instead and you can punish spotdodges with AAA/Usmash/ or charged smashes/well timed grabs.
Zelda
:
Bowser
:
-From 0% to 20% (I think) fthrow->buffered dtilt -> (if they trip) stutter step fsmash combos
-Get him in the air, bowser gets owned in the air
-You can make him approach with your blaster. I believe Wolf can counter every single one of Bowser's approaches. What he will probably try to bait you into attacking him first and punishing you instead.
-A properly spaced B-air can just barely outrange his side-B. Only if you initiate it first
Fox
:
-Intercepting their up B with a shine, and then buffering a jumpshine guarantees a stock.
-When you get into kill range for his usmash, the Fox will try to punish aerial/landing lag with the usmash. Be ready for this.
Sheik (Omniswell, help me fill this out)
:
Ike
:
-If the Ike up+B to get to the ledge, you can time a blaster to hit him him back down to force him to up+B again. This is very difficult to escape since it requires sweetspotting the ledge (something people don't practice in Brawl).
-If they're set on going for the edge with their UpB or are knocked far enuff to where they can only grab the ledge with their UpB u can jus fall off the stage and SideB to steal it before they grab it.
Mario
:
-Shining them off the stage, and then buffering a jumpshine usually results with the loss of a stock for Mario.
-If you are hanging on the ledge, you can time a jumpshine after falling off the ledge to intercept Mario's up B. This will result in a gimp.
-Avoid getting low percent grabbed, he can get up to 40% or so on his dthrow to utilt spam.
Lucas
:
-Grab release -> Fsmash is a guaranteed combo
Ness
:
-Grab release -> Fsmash is a guaranteed combo
-Grab release -> Dsmash is a guaranteed combo
-Grab release -> Buffered Dash Grab is a guaranteed combo
Samus
:
Sonic
:
Squirtle
:
-You can force an approach with blaster. One of Squirtle's major issues is getting shield grabbed out of fair so keep that in mind when Squirtle is approaching.
-They might try to dair when you're trying to get back onstage so smash DI towards the stage and you should be fine.
Ivysaur
:
-You can outcamp Ivysaur pretty easily.
-Try to time your edgehog so that you have invincibility after their second jump so they can't razor leaf you off the edge. If they're in their upb range without using their second jump you probly won't be able to edgehog a good ivysaur.
-DI towards Ivy when you get bullet seeded to avoid the rediculous amount of damage it can deal.
Charizard
:
-Spam bair like crazy. Charizard doesn't really have anything that can beat it. Make sure you space well though because charizard's grab range is amazing.
-Don't get jablocked. If you get jablocked by charizard you're done. Simple. The most common setup for the jablock is bthrow I believe. Also from the jablock they have a guarenteed rock smash which is one of the most damaging moves in the game if sweetspotted and will kill really early. It's easy to escape it I know but always good to be aware.
-You can juggle charizard easily with uair. He doesn't have many options below him in the air at all and is really big. You can even finish by punishing a landing airdodge with usmash pretty easily.
Yoshi
:
Link
:
Jigglypuff
:
Ganondorf
:
Captain Falcon
:
There is a lot of truth in this statement in the sense that there are match-ups that Omniswell does better than me (such as pikachu). We both agree that if we combined our match-up knowledge, our Wolfs would both improve. But hey, why stop there? Why don't we all combine our match-up knowledge to make Wolf as a character a better character. I hate match-up threads because it really doesn't really tell me exactly what to do against certain characters. This thread aims to fill the gaps that match-up threads fail to cover.ahhhh so much hate on me goin on.
No matter where you go someone is gonna disagree with you. I beat alot of good players. so does JJ anyone who dosent think were good is stupid. JJ's videos are flashier than mine and that's what defines good now a days. I camp and i win. JJ is more aggressive and flashy I excel in matches he fails in and vice versa. What you people say Is a good match i call a normal wolf match and what you say is trash i say is an achievement.
If you don't like the video just say i dont like it. don't insult people
so im gonna leave it on this can any of you guys beat anther?
P.S. Thank you daKid for nominating me
*unsubscribes
I will fill out your suggestions to this thread so just post anything you find useful vs. a certain character. I will test this out (and hopefully you guys will also help me test this out) and if it seems really useful, I will update this list with your tips (as well as my own). Hopefully, this thread will make us all better Wolfs.
I will fill this out as time goes by. Btw, if your suggestions seem pretty intuitive to me, I won't add it since it will just be taking up space.
Metaknight
-If you get caught in the tornado, Smash DI upwards with the initial hit and shine immediately
-If they approach with the tornado already out you have multiple options:
1) Shield and tilt it up and punish the ending lag (if they aren't too far away)
2) Jumpshine forward as the tornado comes near
3) Dash the opposite direction and do a full hop. If the tornado continues to come near you, you can bair the top corner of it.
-If they d-smash your shield, you can fsmash/dsmash/AAA to punish it, but you have to be quick.
-If they f-smash your shield, don't try to punish it with a ground attack. If the metaknight tends to dsmash after an fsmash on shield, jump OOS and do a dair which will set up for more damage
-If they glide attack your shield, you have frame advantage. You can usually punish it with a shield grab/AAA/dsmash if they space it badly. If they space it well, try to see what they do after the glide attack and punish accordingly.
-Blasters should be used to GET them to approach. Not to build damage. You have to know when to stop blastering so you don't get punished
Snake
-If the Snake doesn't cancel his ftilt combo on your shield, you can punish it with an fsmash or a fair OOS
-uthrow/bthrow are very very useful vs. Snake. If Wolf is underneath Snake in the air, Wolf's uair trumps EVERY aerial that Snake has. There is no risk when fighting Snake from underneath as long as you space the uair correctly
-If you activate a shine on a motion sensor mine or grenade, you will not get hurt from it
-I end up landing a dair on Snake more than any other character I play. Always go for the dair spike if you think it's possible. It's worth it.
-Smash DI out of Snake's neutral air. Not only does it prevent you from taking the full 29%, it allows you to punish the Snake =)
Falco
-Shine gimp is your best friend. Blastering their jump/side B and shining them works against falcos that aren't experienced vs. Wolf. However, if they are experienced vs. this tactic, they can avoid it by timing the side B and buffering another side B so that it sweetspots the edge after he gets hit by a lazor. I'm still trying to figure out the best way to combat this.
-Learn to DI and tech the CG -> Spike 100% of the time. It's def. worth it because you can fight Falco from the getgo instead of just camping. Laser camping the Falco until he starts reflecting the blasters back at you is STUPID. You are giving him a free 30%-40%. Why not just fight him normally (which will result in you actually damaging Falco) and be sure to DI/tech the cg->spike if you make a mistake.
-If you are not comfortable DIing/teching the cg-> spike, camp a platform until you are over 30% and then go fight in the middle of the stage.
King Dedede
-From 0%-2% fthrow -> buffered dtilt (this should trip the DDD) -> stuttered step fsmash combos. Not sure how often you will grab the DDD at 0-2 percent...but hey... it's something.
-Gordos are reflectable
Mr. Game & Watch
-You have to be patient while fighting G&W. All his aerials have crazy priority and I think they are mostly disjointed. His smash attacks have very little cooldown lag. Hence, the best way to fight him is to wait for openings such as his landing lag on his aerials.
-If you can, run away from the turtle instead of trying to shield it.
-Shine beats everything G&w does to you. G&W is slow. his aerials are slow, his smashes have a good amount of start-up lag. If you get hit by a smash, you made a mistake.
-If g&w is above you, he will usually key. if he does, jump>shine> back air. be careful to avoid nair juggle and up tilt combos
Marth
-Fair OOS his Short hopped Fairs at all times. Your Bair outranges his Fair so use it more than you normally do.
-Watch your DI or everytime you fall on the stage he'll hit with another dancing blade or grab.
-Use your blaster a lot, but like always know the range in which it can be punished by Marth.
-Get up attack from the ledge under 100% can be used to edge guard marth and put him back off the stage.
-If Marth misses a dolphin slash, you can easily punish with up smash and use DACUS if you have to
Diddy Kong
-Learn to JC item toss -> Boost Smash consistently. It's a free 23% if the banana trips them
-Shining them off the stage, and then buffering a jumpshine usually results with the loss of a stock for Diddy.
-Learn the JJ combo (DACIT -> anything). I would personally only use this as a stock finisher. If you do it too much, during the match (like at low percents), they will get accustomed to the extremely quick speed of the slide. I would just use the JC item toss -> Boost Smash combo to build up damage instead. BTW, there isn't a cooler Wolf finishing combo than this.
-Learn to DI well. Diddy has a tough time killing Wolf and this is gigantic advantage you should take advantage of. By living up to 200% each stock, it can get really frustrating for Diddy to fight Wolf.
-Throw the bananas down and up if you arent doing the jj combo and stuff. Throwing the bananas horizontally back at diddy gives diddy more bananas to throw at you, cuz its not that hard to regain control over them *(dribble grab or jump grab oos). You can maintain control of them much better if you throw them downwards or upwards.
Wario
-His SH Dair will be beaten by your SH Fair and Bair every time. Use your aerial mobility for you in managing to zone Wario. Wario players (good ones) are usually good at reading, so if he's above you, mix up what you do. You also might sometimes want to turn around before shielding, as Wario players love to land behind you...
R.O.B.
-Get ROB above you, I can't stress this enough... Wolf is quite good at juggling and ROB underside is a massive weakpoint. Punish airdodges and juggle with Uair and Fair for damage.
Lucario
-Jumpshine / jumpshine OOS nullifies all of Lucario's aerial approaches.
Olimar (Candy, what works well vs PyronicStar??)
-Fair kills all the pikmin on you, and kills all the pikmin thrown at you (except for the purple one)
Pikachu (Omniswell, help me fill this out)
-You can reflect thunder
-Play a small camp fight against the Pika until he thunder jolts you over chain grab percent.
-Do NOT use shine unless the Pika is going for the thunder finish in the air.
-NEVER DI DOWN TO SURVIVE EVER EVER EVER. Dair's lag is sooo bad that you're asking to get thundered by a good pika.
Kirby
-Never follow him over the edge
-To get out of the Gonzo combo, SDI the uair and DJ away. For dthrow > utilt, the Kirby will probably predict a shine on the way down after the second dthrow and shieldgrab, so you're probably better off trying to DJ away (unless they catch you with more utilts, in which case I guess all you can do is SDI).
- Aggressively juggle him, and when he is gonna down b follow him and fair or uair him cause there is a time frame between the stone part of kirby's down b where you can attack him before he becomes a rock.
Donkey Kong
-Pressure the hell out of DK. His shield is terrible, and bair shield pokes really easily. If you get the DK to become defensive, you basically win.
Ice Climbers
-Fighting Iceclimbers involves you just waiting for an opening to separate them, and then continuously punishing them once they are separated. If you get a bair on one of them and they get separated, just freely fsmash/dsmash Nana. If they do manage to get back together, start playing safe again and wait for the next opening.
-Like Falco, learn to DI/tech the CG->Spike thingy that the Iceclimbers like to do.
-If they are in front of you and getting ready for a grab, the AAA combo comes out faster than their grab and can knock them back.
-If you hit them off, aggressively edgeguard them
-If IC's recover High, with an OverB, Prepare for Lasers and Two bairs off the stage. When they recover Low, grab the edge for a nana kill or even a bair if it can be done. Also be aware that Nana's super armor can be used to knock you off the edge.
-Don't get caught above Iceclimbers
-Shine Gimp works against their side B recovery
-Lazoring them at the beginning of their side B will separate them and if they will not be able to recovery properly
-Grab nana near the edge and when popo hits you she falls to her death, or at least thats how its been for me, someone should test this to be 100% sure. I do this when they're both near the edge not when its just nana, thats ridiculous.
Zero Suit Samus
-Try not to airdodge when fighting ZSS. She is very very good at punishing airdodges. Shine is usually a better option.
Toon Link
Pit
-You can punish his fsmash/dsmash with your fsmash or dsmash , dsmash only if you perfect shield the 1st hit for the fsmash.
-Lazor his glide if you can, it really limits his recovery.
-Pit's aerial mobility makes him easy to juggle unless if he uses his up b or has room to glide away.
Peach
-Stay in the air. You don't want to get combo'd by her dairs.
Wolf
-Intercepting their up B with a shine, and then buffering a jumpshine guarantees a stock.
Luigi
-If you are hanging on the ledge and the Luigi used his double jump already and he is below the stage, be ready to fall off and jumpshine the tornado. This will result in a gimp.
-Since he slides so far, bair is safe on shield unless he perfect shields it. He'll spotdodge a lot instead and you can punish spotdodges with AAA/Usmash/ or charged smashes/well timed grabs.
Zelda
Bowser
-From 0% to 20% (I think) fthrow->buffered dtilt -> (if they trip) stutter step fsmash combos
-Get him in the air, bowser gets owned in the air
-You can make him approach with your blaster. I believe Wolf can counter every single one of Bowser's approaches. What he will probably try to bait you into attacking him first and punishing you instead.
-A properly spaced B-air can just barely outrange his side-B. Only if you initiate it first
Fox
-Intercepting their up B with a shine, and then buffering a jumpshine guarantees a stock.
-When you get into kill range for his usmash, the Fox will try to punish aerial/landing lag with the usmash. Be ready for this.
Sheik (Omniswell, help me fill this out)
Ike
-If the Ike up+B to get to the ledge, you can time a blaster to hit him him back down to force him to up+B again. This is very difficult to escape since it requires sweetspotting the ledge (something people don't practice in Brawl).
-If they're set on going for the edge with their UpB or are knocked far enuff to where they can only grab the ledge with their UpB u can jus fall off the stage and SideB to steal it before they grab it.
Mario
-Shining them off the stage, and then buffering a jumpshine usually results with the loss of a stock for Mario.
-If you are hanging on the ledge, you can time a jumpshine after falling off the ledge to intercept Mario's up B. This will result in a gimp.
-Avoid getting low percent grabbed, he can get up to 40% or so on his dthrow to utilt spam.
Lucas
-Grab release -> Fsmash is a guaranteed combo
Ness
-Grab release -> Fsmash is a guaranteed combo
-Grab release -> Dsmash is a guaranteed combo
-Grab release -> Buffered Dash Grab is a guaranteed combo
Samus
Sonic
Squirtle
-You can force an approach with blaster. One of Squirtle's major issues is getting shield grabbed out of fair so keep that in mind when Squirtle is approaching.
-They might try to dair when you're trying to get back onstage so smash DI towards the stage and you should be fine.
Ivysaur
-You can outcamp Ivysaur pretty easily.
-Try to time your edgehog so that you have invincibility after their second jump so they can't razor leaf you off the edge. If they're in their upb range without using their second jump you probly won't be able to edgehog a good ivysaur.
-DI towards Ivy when you get bullet seeded to avoid the rediculous amount of damage it can deal.
Charizard
-Spam bair like crazy. Charizard doesn't really have anything that can beat it. Make sure you space well though because charizard's grab range is amazing.
-Don't get jablocked. If you get jablocked by charizard you're done. Simple. The most common setup for the jablock is bthrow I believe. Also from the jablock they have a guarenteed rock smash which is one of the most damaging moves in the game if sweetspotted and will kill really early. It's easy to escape it I know but always good to be aware.
-You can juggle charizard easily with uair. He doesn't have many options below him in the air at all and is really big. You can even finish by punishing a landing airdodge with usmash pretty easily.
Yoshi
Link
Jigglypuff
Ganondorf
Captain Falcon
Seagull Joe
Smash Legend
for king dedede turn around sd 3 times.give them victory.
castorpollux
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Dec 19, 2007
- Messages
- 2,502
This is a serious thread. Please don't write things like that in here. I believe one day, fighting a good DDD won't be as lopsided as it is now. Saying things like what you said is exactly what's keeping Wolf down.
Seagull Joe
Smash Legend
on a serious note i got some advice for mario.use lots of bairs.space them.and make sure to reflect fire balls cause most marios spam the hell out of it.also two shines over edge is enough to shine spike cause mario recovery sucks
castorpollux
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Dec 19, 2007
- Messages
- 2,502
Thanks haha, yeah I forgot to put that. Shining mario off the stage and buffering a jumpshine i think guarantees death for the mario
Sesshomuronay
Smash Lord
I fight bowser a bunch, he's not a pro but there aren't really many pro bowsers I know of.
-Get him in the air, bowser gets owned in the air
-Try to force him to approach
-A properly spaced B-air can just barely outrange his side-B
Dunno if thats any useful tho.
-Get him in the air, bowser gets owned in the air
-Try to force him to approach
-A properly spaced B-air can just barely outrange his side-B
Dunno if thats any useful tho.
castorpollux
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Dec 19, 2007
- Messages
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Of course it's useful
castorpollux
Smash Champion
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Thanks dood. I heard good things about your wolf. Hope to see you more active on these boards =P
_Kain_
Smash Champion
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Thanks man i'll try to be more active here n help out
For pikachu if you get knocked directly above him it's best to shine to avoid his DownB....don't know how many times ive been stupid and not done this n lost a stock XD
Seagull Joe
Smash Legend
thats not true.im also a bowser main.nothing beats side b.bowser will get hit but wolf will just get flying slammed.plus most bowsers use it with jumps and infinite jumps.pretty much fsmash and lasers piss bowser off more then anything else.bairs also when not getting flying slammed
castorpollux
Smash Champion
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How should I edit the current tips on Bowser so that you both can agree?
Seagull Joe
Smash Legend
just that one thing he said with the bairs isnt true.no matter the well spaced anything side b wins.damage still goes thru
Luigi can't do **** about SHFF bairs from what I've experienced, which fortunately is a big part of my game. Always shield or spam reflector during his jabs because of jab > upB. I usually shield it and fsmash the landing from upB but shine gets through other mixups like dsmash.
Not the same thing but similar, in a low tier tournament I just went Ivy and spammed B whenever someone hit me with a jab and it worked like a charm. Same thing here with downB, the invincibility ***** mixups. However, no punishing for 40% or more
Good thread JJ.
Not the same thing but similar, in a low tier tournament I just went Ivy and spammed B whenever someone hit me with a jab and it worked like a charm. Same thing here with downB, the invincibility ***** mixups. However, no punishing for 40% or more
Good thread JJ.
¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯
Smash Legend
No, I just tested it, perfectly spaced Bair beats out Side-B, only if you initiate it first though.
tekkie
Smash Master
Kirby's dsmash is very punishable because it only hits close up and hitting a shield means tons of cooldown (and it doesn't really push you far away).
¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯
Smash Legend
Good Kirbys don't use Dsmash very often.
_Kain_
Smash Champion
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his fsmash is also punishable
_Kain_
Smash Champion
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He speaks the truth lol
ok ill contribute all i got for pretty much the only two characters i know
1 game and watch
shine is your probably your best move. reason i say this over back air, it beats everything G&w does to you. g&w is slow. his aerials are slow, his smashes are slow. if you know this matchup well like i do, if you get hit by a smash, you made a mistake. the most situational tip i can offer is if g&w is above you, he will usually key. if he does, jump>shine> back air. be careful to avoid nair juggle and up tilt combos
2 marth
dont forget, wolfs fair outranges marths. blaster, a projectile that marth does not have, you must use it wisely. marth is light, take advantage. get up attack from the ledge under 100% can be used to edge guard marth and put him back off the stage. if marth misses a dolphin slash, you can easily punish with up smash and use DACUS if you have to
thats all i got...
1 game and watch
shine is your probably your best move. reason i say this over back air, it beats everything G&w does to you. g&w is slow. his aerials are slow, his smashes are slow. if you know this matchup well like i do, if you get hit by a smash, you made a mistake. the most situational tip i can offer is if g&w is above you, he will usually key. if he does, jump>shine> back air. be careful to avoid nair juggle and up tilt combos
2 marth
dont forget, wolfs fair outranges marths. blaster, a projectile that marth does not have, you must use it wisely. marth is light, take advantage. get up attack from the ledge under 100% can be used to edge guard marth and put him back off the stage. if marth misses a dolphin slash, you can easily punish with up smash and use DACUS if you have to
thats all i got...
Oh and also, if the MK can't space, you can jab him OoS to punish a crappy fsmash, I believe.
ElPadrino
Smash Apprentice
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My 2 Cents on ROB.
This is a tough one in my experience. ROBs Fair is as disjointed as our Bair, and I believe just as fast. His Bair is a disjoint and outspaces itself, he has one of the best recoveries of the game if not THE best, his tilts are **** and his Nair is simply broken.
Luckily for Wolf, shine works like a charm when you're in a sticky situation, and if you don't get gimped you're probably gonna take the stock first since D-smash is the best finisher of the match up (mostly because ROB's Nair is so good on aproach that it'll become stale.
Space Bair well and you should get a little advantage over the air, same with retreating AC Fairs. Blaster is vital here, since a good ROB won't try to arm rotor ir and his camping pretty much gets nulified by relfector.
Get ROB above you, I can't stress this enough... Wolf is quite good at juggling and ROB underside is a massive weakpoint, if you're EVER gonna use Up Throw, this is the time. Punish airdodges and juggle with Uair and Fair for damage.
Don't get Off stage, blaster safely from the stage or risk a couple of Bairs, but don't try anything flashy because you most likly will end up killing yourself.
Hope that helps.
This is a tough one in my experience. ROBs Fair is as disjointed as our Bair, and I believe just as fast. His Bair is a disjoint and outspaces itself, he has one of the best recoveries of the game if not THE best, his tilts are **** and his Nair is simply broken.
Luckily for Wolf, shine works like a charm when you're in a sticky situation, and if you don't get gimped you're probably gonna take the stock first since D-smash is the best finisher of the match up (mostly because ROB's Nair is so good on aproach that it'll become stale.
Space Bair well and you should get a little advantage over the air, same with retreating AC Fairs. Blaster is vital here, since a good ROB won't try to arm rotor ir and his camping pretty much gets nulified by relfector.
Get ROB above you, I can't stress this enough... Wolf is quite good at juggling and ROB underside is a massive weakpoint, if you're EVER gonna use Up Throw, this is the time. Punish airdodges and juggle with Uair and Fair for damage.
Don't get Off stage, blaster safely from the stage or risk a couple of Bairs, but don't try anything flashy because you most likly will end up killing yourself.
Hope that helps.
Zen127
Smash Apprentice
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Pikachu- Play a small camp fight against the Pika until he thunder jolts you over chain grab percent. Pika's aerial range is so ****ty but it can fool you to shine countering because of it's speed. Do NOT use shine unless the Pika is going for the thunder finish in the air. NEVER DI DOWN TO SURVIVE EVER EVER EVER. Dair's lag is sooo bad that you're asking to get thundered by a good pika. Just try to Smash DI out their dsmashes and if they get you into the air and they're still on the ground, ONLY THEN SHINE until you fall a little closer and then air dodge back to the stage and into the fight. Wolf can gain the upper hand in the match up because if played right, Pika won't be able to KO him for a loooooong time.
Falco- ALWAYS go for a stage with platforms. Camp on a platform and keep your shield up. The Falco will not chain grab you and will keep hitting with his airs thus bringing you over chain grab percent. NEVER LEAVE THE PLATFORM UNTIL YOU'RE OVER 30-40. If you're on Final Destination, take at least 10-20% then stay in the middle camping lasers. I doubt the Falco will bring you to the edge for the dair if you're in 10-20.
Marth- Fair OOS his Short hopped Fairs at all times. Your Bair outranges his Fair so use it aloooooooooooooooot more than you normally do. Oh, and watch your DI or everytime you fall on the stage he'll hit with another dancing blade or grab.
Diddy- Reflect his nanners? IDOFJSDIOFIdsFID****DIDDYKONGUGHHIUSFNDSIOFNDSOI
Falco- ALWAYS go for a stage with platforms. Camp on a platform and keep your shield up. The Falco will not chain grab you and will keep hitting with his airs thus bringing you over chain grab percent. NEVER LEAVE THE PLATFORM UNTIL YOU'RE OVER 30-40. If you're on Final Destination, take at least 10-20% then stay in the middle camping lasers. I doubt the Falco will bring you to the edge for the dair if you're in 10-20.
Marth- Fair OOS his Short hopped Fairs at all times. Your Bair outranges his Fair so use it aloooooooooooooooot more than you normally do. Oh, and watch your DI or everytime you fall on the stage he'll hit with another dancing blade or grab.
Diddy- Reflect his nanners? IDOFJSDIOFIdsFID****DIDDYKONGUGHHIUSFNDSIOFNDSOI
Zen127
Smash Apprentice
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I'm sorry JJ but I've been through Falco vs Wolf many many times. It's not possible to tech the spike every time, and good falco's can SPACE the chain grab to get you at the edge, where it won't matter if you smash DI or not. I would rather take 40% than take a risk and get KO'd if I make a slight mistake, which is easy to do when trying to tech a spike. Besides, Wolf can KO falco faster than Falco KO's Wolf sooo its not like 40% makes it a BIG disadvantage.
Sesshomuronay
Smash Lord
Against zero suit samus, if you are hit by her jab combo, I'm pretty sure you can grab her before the 3rd hit. You might need to DI into the stage quickly tho.
Oh and avoid getting hit by her D-smash, she has a D-smash chain thingy she can do to you at certain percents.
And try not to remain at a mid range with her, be at a distance or get in close.
Oh and avoid getting hit by her D-smash, she has a D-smash chain thingy she can do to you at certain percents.
And try not to remain at a mid range with her, be at a distance or get in close.
castorpollux
Smash Champion
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You are correct when you say a good falco can space the chaingrab at the edge so that it doesn't matter if I smash DI or not. However, if you get grabbed around the middle of final D, the wolf has to be near 0% to actually reach that distance where he cannot DI back onto the stage/tech.
When I fight falco in the beginning, I play in a way so that it's difficult to grab me and when he does so, it might be at 20% or so towards the middlish part of final D. At this point the falco has too much room to cover in order to CG me to the "un-DIable" spot.
if the falco has too much room to cover, I always DI back onto the stage at least (i might not aways techroll). Trust me when I say I always do this... I've practiced to the point where I don't mess up the smash DI.
Also your platform strategy has a flaw in it. What if the falco shoots u with 1 lazor and then waits until time runs out. That forces you to come down from the platform to at least even out the percents. You have to fight the falco eventually anyways. Why not from the getgo?
Dv8tor
Smash Journeyman
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With Mario I would say avoid getting low percent grabbed, he gets up to 40% or so on his dthrow to utilt spam.
Ike can get away from the up B lock, they just have to know their character, my friend found that out the hard way. The side B steal is amazing against them, especially when you have the ledge and they believe they will win, it's funny to jump off and then side B back to laugh at them.
I thank Castor for the thread, this is one of the things I have been wanting to see for a while, I find this board becomes more stale as time goes on from these idiotic match up "discussions." It's been annoying as of late to come onto the board.
Ishieymoro I suggest this to be a sticky in S.O.L.I.D.'s old thread, if you haven't already.
Ike can get away from the up B lock, they just have to know their character, my friend found that out the hard way. The side B steal is amazing against them, especially when you have the ledge and they believe they will win, it's funny to jump off and then side B back to laugh at them.
I thank Castor for the thread, this is one of the things I have been wanting to see for a while, I find this board becomes more stale as time goes on from these idiotic match up "discussions." It's been annoying as of late to come onto the board.
Ishieymoro I suggest this to be a sticky in S.O.L.I.D.'s old thread, if you haven't already.
Seagull Joe
Smash Legend
basically what u just said means if u do an attack first u win.that goes for everything.i can bair a ddd first but he can shield into grab after i hit.this logic is just terrible here solid.if i do bair first before side b then yea ill hit.if they r done at the same time side b wins.if side b is done first it wins.
tedeth
Smash Master
Trainer:
They will most likely start with squirtle against wolf. A good squirtle can be really annoying in the air due to it being really small but with really good aerials.
Shine is amazing here.
This is definitely the pokemon that will give wolf the hardest time. Squirlt can gimp wolf pretty hard if you're not careful with your recovery. His fair beats upb and sideb so this is a matchup where you really don't want to get knocked offstage (like many of wolf's matchups i guess).
You can force an approach with blaster. One of Squirtle's major issues is getting shield grabbed out of fair so keep that in mind when Squirtle is approaching.
They might try to dair when you're trying to get back onstage so smash DI towards the stage and you should be fine.
Ivysaur is not really much of an issue. You can outcamp Ivysaur pretty easily.
Ivy's bair is really good for spacing but it does like 2% damage so it's really a non issue.
Don't really have to worry too much about getting gimped here.
Try to time your edgehog so that you have invincibility after their second jump so they can't razor leaf you off the edge. If they're in their upb range without using their second jump you probly won't be able to edgehog a good ivysaur.
DI towards Ivy when you get bullet seeded to avoid the rediculous amount of damage it can deal.
Charizard isn't too bad for wolf either really. You need to watch for fair gimps particularly on lower percentages. His fair will gimp you amazingly early if you're not careful. In most cases it can be shined if nothing else though.
Spam bair like crazy. Charizard doesn't really have anything that can beat it. Make sure you space well though because charizard's grab range is amazing.
Don't get jablocked. If you get jablocked by charizard you're done. Simple. The most common setup for the jablock is bthrow I believe. Also from the jablock they have a guarenteed rock smash which is one of the most gamaging moves in the game if sweetspotted and will kill really early. It's easy to escape it I know but always good to be aware.
Flamethrower can be damaging but it's easy to DI out of or even shine.
You can juggle charizard easily with uair. He doesn't have many options below him in the air at all and is really big. You can even finish by punishing a landing airdodge with usmash pretty easily.
I also have a fair bit of experience against ness if you're interested.
They will most likely start with squirtle against wolf. A good squirtle can be really annoying in the air due to it being really small but with really good aerials.
Shine is amazing here.
This is definitely the pokemon that will give wolf the hardest time. Squirlt can gimp wolf pretty hard if you're not careful with your recovery. His fair beats upb and sideb so this is a matchup where you really don't want to get knocked offstage (like many of wolf's matchups i guess).
You can force an approach with blaster. One of Squirtle's major issues is getting shield grabbed out of fair so keep that in mind when Squirtle is approaching.
They might try to dair when you're trying to get back onstage so smash DI towards the stage and you should be fine.
Ivysaur is not really much of an issue. You can outcamp Ivysaur pretty easily.
Ivy's bair is really good for spacing but it does like 2% damage so it's really a non issue.
Don't really have to worry too much about getting gimped here.
Try to time your edgehog so that you have invincibility after their second jump so they can't razor leaf you off the edge. If they're in their upb range without using their second jump you probly won't be able to edgehog a good ivysaur.
DI towards Ivy when you get bullet seeded to avoid the rediculous amount of damage it can deal.
Charizard isn't too bad for wolf either really. You need to watch for fair gimps particularly on lower percentages. His fair will gimp you amazingly early if you're not careful. In most cases it can be shined if nothing else though.
Spam bair like crazy. Charizard doesn't really have anything that can beat it. Make sure you space well though because charizard's grab range is amazing.
Don't get jablocked. If you get jablocked by charizard you're done. Simple. The most common setup for the jablock is bthrow I believe. Also from the jablock they have a guarenteed rock smash which is one of the most gamaging moves in the game if sweetspotted and will kill really early. It's easy to escape it I know but always good to be aware.
Flamethrower can be damaging but it's easy to DI out of or even shine.
You can juggle charizard easily with uair. He doesn't have many options below him in the air at all and is really big. You can even finish by punishing a landing airdodge with usmash pretty easily.
I also have a fair bit of experience against ness if you're interested.
_Kain_
Smash Champion
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Pika has LOTS of CG options its best to jus try ur best at spacing and avoiding the grab the whole fight rather than play campy at the beginning percents
castorpollux
Smash Champion
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His cg only goes past 30% if his dthrow is stale
castorpollux
Smash Champion
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All matchup knowledge is welcome. I don't wanna risk losing to a good ness =)
THAT WOULD BE EMBARASSING
Against MK: Try to stay on the ground in the middle of the stage. Never get close to the ledge or above him in the air if you can help it. As JCav showed us Wolf can survive MKs dsmash over 180% and that's his best KO move. MKs best options to deal damage is to juggle you and his best option to land the KO are offstage gimps. You can prevent both if you manage to stay in the middle of the stage.
This is a tactic that works for most characters ... it makes the MK match-up a lot easier for me. In general having a good position > dealing damage vs MK. MK has to deal more damage than Wolf and his dsmash isn't much better than Wolfs.
Against ICs: Be campy as ****. Get a lead and camp on platforms. ICs usually use their uair to deal massive damage (22%) from but Wolf is mobile enough to move around platforms quickly without getting hit (and in the worst case you still have the shine). Always have them approach you and always keep your distance to avoid the grab. Once you're in grab range you should know your options: Rolling back, retreating fair and jab1 are the best moves to prevent a grab (spotdodge is very risky).
Against Wario: Don't try to shield his moves - he can poke shield extremely well with his dair as it's very spammy. You should always try to beat Warios aerials. Shine works very well although it's punishable if Wario just baits it. Spamming safe moves is generally good if you don't want to fall for Warios baiting game. Retreating fair beats Warios dair - if you manage to beat his dair consistently he'll have to mix it up with bite and dash grabs. Retreating fair in general is a very good move against Wario.
Warios like to aircamp to charge their fart...Wolf is mobile enough to deal with it perfectly fine. Furthermore he has a projectile and overall good range so you have the tools to stop Wario from camping you.
This is a tactic that works for most characters ... it makes the MK match-up a lot easier for me. In general having a good position > dealing damage vs MK. MK has to deal more damage than Wolf and his dsmash isn't much better than Wolfs.
Against ICs: Be campy as ****. Get a lead and camp on platforms. ICs usually use their uair to deal massive damage (22%) from but Wolf is mobile enough to move around platforms quickly without getting hit (and in the worst case you still have the shine). Always have them approach you and always keep your distance to avoid the grab. Once you're in grab range you should know your options: Rolling back, retreating fair and jab1 are the best moves to prevent a grab (spotdodge is very risky).
Against Wario: Don't try to shield his moves - he can poke shield extremely well with his dair as it's very spammy. You should always try to beat Warios aerials. Shine works very well although it's punishable if Wario just baits it. Spamming safe moves is generally good if you don't want to fall for Warios baiting game. Retreating fair beats Warios dair - if you manage to beat his dair consistently he'll have to mix it up with bite and dash grabs. Retreating fair in general is a very good move against Wario.
Warios like to aircamp to charge their fart...Wolf is mobile enough to deal with it perfectly fine. Furthermore he has a projectile and overall good range so you have the tools to stop Wario from camping you.
castorpollux
Smash Champion
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i'm not sure if camping against icys is the best strategy.... I've been really successful vs icys by playing smart while being aggressive at the same time.
I'll test this out but I doubt it will work. iirc, wolf is still in his blaster retracting animation by the time falco already touches the ledge. Im thinking of maybe using nair or shining him out of the side b as a possible solution. And you don't play brawl. That's why people don't take u seriously.
steersmash
Smash Rookie
nice thread
Anyone got some tips against pit, My mate mains him and really give sme trouble with just about everything.
Also, what is a 'buffered' Dsmash?
Anyone got some tips against pit, My mate mains him and really give sme trouble with just about everything.
Also, what is a 'buffered' Dsmash?
professor mgw
Smash Champion
wolf:down grab+forward grab.
easy combo for unaware players
easy combo for unaware players