D
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Character: Wolf
Current BBR MU Rating: -1
What to watch out for: Shine Gimping, Grab Release into F-Smash
Stages
-Strike: Yoshi's Island, Battlefield
-Ban: Lylat, Yoshi's Island
-Counterpicks: Brinstar, Frigate Orpheon
Lucas Boards Matchup Rating: -1
[COLLAPSE="Matchup Summaries"]
Well, I was playing this match up last night for the first time, but this is what I got:
Wolf needs to approach; he can't try to camp us since we can just magnet his lasers. If he tries to stay away, we can just harass him with pkf, and if he sits on his reflector we can quickly approach and grab/fair/nair/something. When he approaches, hes hella dangerous. He has LOTS of approaches, like walking ftilt (really safe attack), SH-fair, SH-bair (un-punishable if well spaced), SH-shine, DACUS; he can even approach and laser (which, unless you predict, you won't me able to magnet, and if you try to magnet on reaction, you'll get hit). So this is where the problem is: How can we deal with his approaches? I dealt with them with ftilt and retreating fair the most, and it worked fairly well. However, it's really a problem when wolfs use Fsmash as an approach, because, though it's really punishable on block, it's fast to come out, it covers a lot of space quickly and deals a nice enough amount of damage. It really messed up my spacing when wolf used it. I found retreating pivot grab a nice way to deal with this and his other ground approaches. Still, in the end, I really felt this a +1 for wolf, since he can rack up damage way faster than we can, he kills easily with dacus, bair and dsmash (also, shine to dsmash needs to be perfect shielded or will hit), and can gimp us, be it a spike or a shine against the pkt1.
Shine> jab is truecombo, btw.
I have trouble fighting Lucas as Wolf if the player uses the mobility of the character well. Sure, we have reflector to stop the PK Fire, but that only goes so far 'till they begin to bait and punish. Camping with Blaster also isn't too wise, but it's good at close range because of the bayonet.
Our horizontal range on our F-air and B-airs is pretty reliable though, so Lucas needs to watch out for that. Lucas can run away fairly well, but Wolf is also known for mobility in the air. Wolf also has a strong ground game, so.....yeah. It's also extremely dangerous to recover low vs. Wolf. Better to come in from a distance horizontally.
While Lucas can give Wolf some trouble, he has just too many options that beat ours. -1 at best.
what to watch out for
1: wolfs back air is legit, it is a combo starter as well as a decent kill move. so you know. bair to fsmash is combo that you should most def. look out for.
2: DONT GET GRABBED. if your grabbed, its and automatic GR to fsmash.
recovering
id recommend switching up the recovery a lot. you have a lot of options. otherwise it;ll lead to an easy gimp for wolf.
1: if you tether near the ledge. a wolf that knows the matchup will spike you if theyre anywhere near the ledge.
2: not sure if its a better idea to recover high or low. wolfs uair is pretty legit. but im fairly sure dair beats it out *correct me if im wrong, the wolf i play doesnt do it often so i cant remember if that's the reason or not*
Range wise:
1: you can out camp this domestic mutt, magnet those lazers and makem come towards you.
2: generally try to play close range and long range for
- long range to camp
- short range but in burst. you dont want to get grabbed. remeber if you nair to always land behind the wolf. if wolf takes flight into SH's and FH's back out of it. this is partially where we lose the MU. Shine and most of his aerials are trouble if you have nooooo idea what to do.
- if you play mid range, you wanna play in FAir range. not pk fire range.
3: Wolfs dacus is actually pretty good and has pretty decent range, dont let it catch you off guard. dont spot dodge it either, just shield and ftilt.
Stages
Strike- Yoshi's island, Battle Field.
Ban - Halberd, or CS and the strikes.
CP- pokemon 1, frigate(if your felling ballzy)
i feel like this is even.
lol @ +1. I've said that this matchup is almost even, probably closer to +1 wolf than +1 Lucas, that's for sure.
What happens when you play someone who doesn't calm down with bair walling? A lot of us Wolves are as aggro as Seagull at low% but can mix up speeds when necessary.
What happens when you play someone who can actually laser camp you? Wolfs laser works to approach and retreat with and the gun has a hitbox.
What happens when they decide to SPAM (at appropriate times) d-smash instead of relying on it for killing? That move outspaces everything, is fast and deals a lot of damage.
What happens when you play someone who actually waits til ~130 to grab release f-smash you AND it's FRESH. Good luck with that DI.
Also, would like to point out that d-throw does more damage than GR-Fsmash.
Also, a fresh Fair is hard to DI as well.
FAE and I played about 8 matches of Wolf-Lucas this past weekend, I won the first 3, he won the next 4 and I won the last one, so that's even. (as a tie breaker, he ***** drunk MRM in the crew battle).
That being said, here's what Wolf has to worry about.
#0-Obviously, don't spam blaster. He will heal a lot or bat it back at you.
#1-Dair/nair/ftilt mix ups. Wolf can beat them if he knows what's going to happen, but with proper mixups, it's tough mcgruff. Dair can be beaten if you get to it on the start up with upair, but bair/fair trade better, though sometimes that's impossible. Nair is just best to shine, and f-tilt you can get around with whatever, but know that mix up is coming.
#2-Magnet Beaming the entire screen in less than a second. That stupid move has the weirdest hitbox and seems to be the move that gimps me, because it will knock me far enough off stage that lucas can use his magic and then time the ledge grab.
#3-Verticle PK fire gimps. I did a really good job avoiding this when I played FAE, but whenever he'd hit me upward at a non-killing, but almost % he'd come up and shoot me dead or almost off stage.
#4-D-tilt is b.s. and will lock you I should have won a match...really...but I got d-tilted and died at like 80% :/
Don't spot dodge too much or you will eat d-smash's. Shine is really helpful because Lucas isn't used to people getting out of his combo.
I think that's allf or now.
I tend to kill with Fair or Bair. Fsmash doesn't kill till very high percents. It shouldn't kill you. Dsmash is hard to land on because he is a character that generally is grounded and his moves have little lag. Only way Dsmash should work on him is if is recovering, close to the edge offstage, or he DI's into you during a GR.
In the realm of intense theorycraft, then this matchup would go to time everytime because would reflect 's projectiles and avoid him while would heal from lasers and his own reflected back moves.
There isn't such a thing as perfect recovery for a character that isn't in brawl in my honest opinion.
I didn't say perfect recovery. I said a mastery of recovery. This means u can use all of lucas' options in recovery at your disposal. With that u can add mixups, bait(force your opponent to do what you want), and make it back to the stage.
I rarely get gimped because I force my opponent to do what I want via making them back up, shield, etc, while recovering. One of my favorite things to do is to pika fire my opponents shield as I'm falling. As they shield I will make my next move and depending on what they do, is what option I will choose. Kinda hard to explain but that's why i keep saying smash is a mental game.
For example in me vs esam in this match...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHQ8Yh7NVqU
watch at 3:24. I knew exactly what esam was going to do because he had punished me earlier for recovering a similar way. So I mixed it up. I knew that by starting that recovery that he would get ready to punish. I baited him into that and then mixed it up at the last second.
So when talking about matchups if we are assuming the player has full mastery of all of the characters abilities and uses them in a smart manor, then we can say that Wolf's downthrow off the stage isn't that bad.
Like for example, Falco's chain grab to spike is deadly for lucas players who do not have full mastery of the zap jump, but if they do that makes the matchup completely different.
@Striker - I don't have to worry about that because lucas is very quick and powerful himself. So if you can learn to read the wolf's habits and playstyle u can get inside and punish accordingly. U have to attack in situations before his attack can come out(spacing). That is the key imo to being a successful lucas player. He doesn't gimp us easily unless yer talking about a lucky lasor off the stage on wifi lolol. He will gimp a lucas player easily who doesn't Di well and doesn't have many different options to recover at his disposal.
Well, at least I can respond to posts about Wolf, so here goes...
While I think it's kinda really out there to say that Lucas beats Wolf, I can maybe see it being in the .5 range if we had decimals :/
Wolf kiiiinda needs to approach, maybe. If we shine projectiles and jump out of it, you really have a hard time punishing us for it. However, same goes for you using your magnet. It's a stalemate, I'd say.
If you get grabbed and Wolf goes for the grab release, make sure you do the far release and hold up. The close release means you can get dsmashed (but few Wolves will react to that and just fsmash on instinct anyways), and if you hold up + some extra SDI it'll be easy to get out after the first hit with only an extra 5%. Jab should beat out most dashgrab mixup attempts.
As Mekos said, once Lucas learns to get around bair it's a whole new ball game. Every other Lucas I've played (nobody notable unfortunately) had a real issue dealing with bair, but at higher levels Lucas can really mitigate its impact with his overall mobility.
For getting dthrown near the ledge, just tether the ledge lol. Solves basically everything. It's pretty tough to get Lucas into bad positions offstage too imo, or at least at high levels.
Fair is a good kill move, I find that to be useful since Lucas jumps around a lot with aerials and it can trade/beat a fair amount of his stuff.
Gimping Lucas is pretty hard if he's smart about it imo.
Uhh yeah don't spotdodge, don't get locked out of dair. Those are important things for Wolf.
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Only high-leve Lucas I've played is Mekos, who I think is quite noticeably better than me. I used to think we could more or less just bair and do well, but he showed me otherwise lol, that set did not go well xD
[/COLLAPSE]I like discussing this topic with Ishiey. Good comments man. I'm assuming were talking about high level play and trying to give examples of that as well. We have played!? Cool But like I said my first tourney ever this wold player messed me up and all he really did was back air lol. I also agree that wolfs need to approach us which I love. I bait every wolf into shooting their lasors. At a certain distance yall can't resist and I'll get a heal every once in a while . After that most of them say ff it and go aggro lol.
@Striker u aren't reading my comments obviously. I said it should be 0 or +1 in wolfs favor.
But yer logic is wrong. Smash is about spacing. So u cant just say one move beats another. It depends on the spacing of the characters. That is what I am trying to explain to you. It doesn't matter if wolfs attacks have more range if lucas has the correct spacing. Wolf does not have a long sword like Marth. So I am talking about the ease of our ability to use spacing to get inside and attack accodingly. It is much easier for us to space against wolf than marth or mk. Once we get inside he can not up b like mk or sword dance like marth. Most of alot of wolfs do their reflector once they have been pressured or hit. I read that most of the time and get a heavy punish. Anyways my logic does not mean that every matchup is +4. U get what I am trying to say?
At high level play wolfs doesn't have a great amount of better options than lucas. Read what Ishiey wrote. My point is if the lucas has mastery of all his options then what most people claim to be wolfs advantages on lucas or not in fact that big of a deal.
@Seagul - Here is a match of u vs PF on the same level(halberd) actually and yer playstyle really hasn't changed _-_. And that is tourney. U got a big lead and still went aggro. no johns
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDo4aTKaOfM&feature=related