Fly_Amanita
Master of Caribou
I believe there's also a jab-cancel variation of the infinite, which would further complicate any attempts to ban wobbling as it makes the definition of the infinite even muskier.
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Wobbling
- Thread starter Hax
- Start date
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
Geez why don't we just ban Ice Climbers from grabbing?
I'm still wholly confused by the way people approach this technique. When we analyze a technique for brokenness, we really only care about one thing: the average end result of attempting to apply the technique throughout a match.
We don't care about how hard it is. Difficulty of execution is already incorporated into that definition.
We don't care about how risky it is. The amount of risk is already incorporated into that definition.
We don't care about how dumb it looks. Dumb is an opinion.
Even Ice Climbers players that liberally use infinites don't swing results in a dramatic way. Fox's shine alone probably swings more matches and affects gameplay far, far more than the Wobbles technique. It's comparable to plenty of other 15- or 25-to death situations in the game that don't get any attention for banworthiness. This conversation is just silly.
I'm still wholly confused by the way people approach this technique. When we analyze a technique for brokenness, we really only care about one thing: the average end result of attempting to apply the technique throughout a match.
We don't care about how hard it is. Difficulty of execution is already incorporated into that definition.
We don't care about how risky it is. The amount of risk is already incorporated into that definition.
We don't care about how dumb it looks. Dumb is an opinion.
Even Ice Climbers players that liberally use infinites don't swing results in a dramatic way. Fox's shine alone probably swings more matches and affects gameplay far, far more than the Wobbles technique. It's comparable to plenty of other 15- or 25-to death situations in the game that don't get any attention for banworthiness. This conversation is just silly.
ArcNatural
Banned ( ∫x, δx Points)
I agree with KishPrime
The only thing I truly dislike about wobbling is how long it takes if you happen to get grabbed at a low percent for ice climbers to get you to a kill %. That alone sometimes is a little annoying. I would probably ask the ice climber if I could just kill myself if it was apparent that he got the wobble down just for the sake of not having to wait so long.
But that isn't a reason for a ban, wobbling only swings matches for average players imo. No reason for a ban.
The only thing I truly dislike about wobbling is how long it takes if you happen to get grabbed at a low percent for ice climbers to get you to a kill %. That alone sometimes is a little annoying. I would probably ask the ice climber if I could just kill myself if it was apparent that he got the wobble down just for the sake of not having to wait so long.
But that isn't a reason for a ban, wobbling only swings matches for average players imo. No reason for a ban.
AXE 09
Smash Master
This is exactly what I think and what I was trying to say earlier. I think that whether it should be banned or not depends on how much we care about average - lower leveled players. I happen to care about those players a lot and personally think that this technique deserves a ban. I do not think that wobbling will effect the outcome for the top placers in a national or other major tournaments, but I think that it will have a greater effect on local or non-major tournaments.
Yes, let us handicap ice climbers and dumb the game down for those mid level players. It clearly isn't their job to get better anyway. I guess we should remove any form of technical skill required too, because it favors too much who can WD/LCancel at very low level, and I happen to care for these players.
Not.
Its just not how we work. Play to win, get better. We are the keepers of the ideals of this community, when someone comes and whines about wobbling, we should be the one to tell them to "step it up", not that we are going to ban it...
Divinokage
Smash Legend
The evidence we have is too much in the past to count anymore. The top players mostly all have ways to deal with it right now. Not banning Wobbling really makes no difference anymore for tournament results, I say for the IC players.
Luma
Smash Lord
Most of us can clearly agree with "being wobbled can be gay".
Loss of character control is a very frustrating situation for the player getting gay´d, thus making wobbling a hated technique all over the world/community.
Now, why do people compete in tournaments?
A. Because of fun/friends
B. money (lol)
C. They wanna become better
D. They wanna know who´s best
If we forget the former two (since they are not really relevant to the metagame/rulesettings) and look at C. and D. people who take this game seriously tend to "Play To Win".
They are also the ones that keep pushing the Metagame,the ones that try to exploit every single aspect and technique of the game,the ones that keep Melee fresh and alive.
After having read Wobbles` post the desire to have this "really gay" technique allowed seems more understandable to me now, even though i do hate getting Wobble´d.
So.
Why ban Wobbling, when it´s your own fault getting grabbed?
High-Level Players just avoid it.And lower skilled ones have to either learn how to handle these unusual situations or they just don´t deserve to win.
C. and D. definitely do.
Playing to win means making the right decisions,
only the smarter player,the one with the stronger mind and nerves will be ultimate champion in this cruel battle.
Also,this is not Luma,this is AE. being bored and hungover trolling MBR while Luma is asleep.
Loss of character control is a very frustrating situation for the player getting gay´d, thus making wobbling a hated technique all over the world/community.
Now, why do people compete in tournaments?
A. Because of fun/friends
B. money (lol)
C. They wanna become better
D. They wanna know who´s best
If we forget the former two (since they are not really relevant to the metagame/rulesettings) and look at C. and D. people who take this game seriously tend to "Play To Win".
They are also the ones that keep pushing the Metagame,the ones that try to exploit every single aspect and technique of the game,the ones that keep Melee fresh and alive.
After having read Wobbles` post the desire to have this "really gay" technique allowed seems more understandable to me now, even though i do hate getting Wobble´d.
So.
Why ban Wobbling, when it´s your own fault getting grabbed?
High-Level Players just avoid it.And lower skilled ones have to either learn how to handle these unusual situations or they just don´t deserve to win.
C. and D. definitely do.
Playing to win means making the right decisions,
only the smarter player,the one with the stronger mind and nerves will be ultimate champion in this cruel battle.
Also,this is not Luma,this is AE. being bored and hungover trolling MBR while Luma is asleep.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
Quite honestly, at low-mid level, people can still lose matchups like Sheik vs Pichu, or Marth vs Mr. Game & Watch, or Falco vs Bowser, or Falcon vs Zelda, so I don't really give two ****s about that player crowd.
Matchups barely matter at low-mid level. Anyone can lose to anything.
Matchups barely matter at low-mid level. Anyone can lose to anything.
"Protecting" the lower leveled is not the same as caring about them. Conversely, we should make every effort to ENGAGE and INVOLVE them. Why coddle low-level players when you can use things like the Wobbles as a teaching moment for how competitive gaming works. Rather than allowing them to say "THAT WAS SO CHEAP," correct them and teach them that you play to win the game. That's what they'll find at the upper levels.
Why would you give lower-level players the delusion of being included in this atmosphere at the lower levels with banned "scrub" tactics when you can offer them the actual experience of playing in a cutthroat, winner-takes all gaming tournament? It's not for everyone, and watering down the experience simply to try to please low-level players is simply not honest.
Why would you give lower-level players the delusion of being included in this atmosphere at the lower levels with banned "scrub" tactics when you can offer them the actual experience of playing in a cutthroat, winner-takes all gaming tournament? It's not for everyone, and watering down the experience simply to try to please low-level players is simply not honest.
Slhoka
Smash Lord
[Edit]Ninja'd, as always...[/edit]
I actually agree with Axe, because my understanding of such a situation is the opposite of swordgard : I see this as a tournament host, who wants to take care of the community. When I'm hosting a tournament, I try to give a good tournament experience to everyone. And when it comes to local/fairly large tournament, I think that it may be useful not to focus on the competitive aspects only.
This point of view kinda comes from what I see around me : the Parisian -not to say French- community isn't that active at the moment and is endangered by the lack of tournaments. Its activity relies a lot on new and average players, as qui a few good players recently retired. Now, all those average players are the kind of guys who know how to play, can do some quite a few good things, but aren't good enough overall to avoid being grabbed for a whole game, in short, the perfect targets of also average IC players whose strategy is to abuse wobbling. I know for sure that if such an IC player was able to place fairly well thanks to the use of wobbling (it never happened yet because 1) Wobbling is usually banned over here 2) our ICs players don't like to use it), many average players wouldn't attend tournaments anymore. If a guy loses a match because his opponent uses "regular" IC chaingrabs on him, you can tell him something like "Well, the best thing to do is not to get grabbed, but if it happens, on this kind of chaingrab, you can try to get out DIing like it was another character's chaingrab, and on this kind of chaingrab, you can smash DI there." If the guy loses because of wobbling, you can't tell him anything but "don't get grabbed", which gives a pretty bad feeling.
So you will tell me "this is not the kind of reaction of a competitive player, so we don't have to care", and in a way, you'll be right. But if it happened to you when you started playing smash, would you have had a different reaction ? Considering the amount of highly skilled players in this backrom and the necessary mindset one need to become a very good player, I'd tend to think that the percentage of people who would have seen this would be higher than the average of the Melee community, but I'm pretty sure many would have said "**** this, it's broken" and would have been annoyed to enter a tournament to lose to a player using wobbling.
So now you'll say "again, who cares ? This is not what we want to see in a competition, this is just a scrub reaction". The problem is, this reaction is the reality of the smash scene. I think wobbling is ont of the things that shows the limits of smash as a competitive game : we are not professional players. We don't have a coach telling us that no matter why and how we lose, improving is the only way to become really good. A significant part of community simply doesn't have a competition-only mindset, and because of the lack of knowledge about Ice Climbers, wobbling gives the image of a technique which isn't acceptable to many (most ?) people. And we cannot shrug and say it doesn't matter, because new/low level/average players are essential to the smash community : they are the ones who allow to reach high numbers in tournament attendance, and they encourage competition as their entry fee represent a major part of the cash prizes.
Overall, I think that because Melee has been out for almost 10 years, and because our community hasn't been endorsed by any reliable institution, we need to nurture our community, and especially new and average players. It may means that trading a small part of the competitive aspect of the game for a more average player-friendly one could be a good thing.
Wobbling doesn't bring enough advantages to match its disadvantages (its impact on the average players results and on their minds being the most important in my opinion). You could say the same about the shine spikes, the rest or many chaingrabs, but none of those gives the player this impression of helplessness, and to me, it makes the difference a loss whose reasons are easy to explain and show under a positive light, and another loss where I cannot say much more than "Dont get grabbed. =/"
I know that this idea of mine is controversial and is a bit like renouncing to competition while it is one of our primary purposes, but because of what I experienced as a TO and a community leader, it would have an overall positive impact. This may not be as useful on a really active community, however.
Uh... who is AE?
Luma
Smash Lord
best swiss player, he is at my place right now
i was sleeping, he was bored = he went to swf and checked the mbr ^^
i was sleeping, he was bored = he went to swf and checked the mbr ^^
I'm not amused...
Don't just tell people "don't get grabbed." Give them helpful advice on how to avoid getting grabbed, how to split the ICs, tell them that Nana can't DI and if you're patient you can easily get shield stabs and bait things like rolls to land big hits on them. Tell them to mash like a crazy person when they get grabbed. Give them useful advice on all the conditions to fulfill in order to play against the ICs properly.
And tell them that if all that stuff fails to happen, that "it's kind of like getting shine-spiked except it takes longer." Because if you think of this thing as a combo, it's easier to hate it. If you think of it as a gimp kill with breaktime in between where every now and then you magically get your life back, it feels a lot better!
If they're doing all that stuff and STILL getting grabbed, then odds are they're getting outplayed. It happens you know. Sometimes the IC player is just better than you and gets those grabs and then you eat ****. You can pay attention to avoiding everything in this game but better players will still find ways to land even the dumbest stuff. And if you haven't met the conditions for avoiding the infinite and then it happens to you.... practice more?
And tell them that if all that stuff fails to happen, that "it's kind of like getting shine-spiked except it takes longer." Because if you think of this thing as a combo, it's easier to hate it. If you think of it as a gimp kill with breaktime in between where every now and then you magically get your life back, it feels a lot better!
If they're doing all that stuff and STILL getting grabbed, then odds are they're getting outplayed. It happens you know. Sometimes the IC player is just better than you and gets those grabs and then you eat ****. You can pay attention to avoiding everything in this game but better players will still find ways to land even the dumbest stuff. And if you haven't met the conditions for avoiding the infinite and then it happens to you.... practice more?
Grabs aren't some obscene difficult tech that takes some ungodly amount of skill to get, even for the ICs and i dont know why we're treating them like they are.
Cause the ics have to both be present and set up to land the tech, clearly making it more difficult. Also you can easily split them up, removing the risk of the technique entirely. Why are you pretending they are like others?
People who know how to fight the climbers keep those guys split up more often then not. Regardless though, even if they could land a grab as easy as fox, that does not change much of the concept we are talking about. It would still come down to the overall performance at tournaments. Clearly the evidence does not exist to handicap a character that isn't even consistently winning.
Also for low level play: I've seen more people not play smash simply cause of ATs and getting trounced then I ever have seen quit cause of wobbling. The low level argument is terrible logically because it is so easily slippery sloped to other techniques or styles of play. Using that argument shows little skill in debate or in being able to apply your concepts across the board. You can't just pick and choose what low level players don't like, cause honestly the options are so diverse you should probably just reduce that game to a single character with a single move on a single stage.
People who know how to fight the climbers keep those guys split up more often then not. Regardless though, even if they could land a grab as easy as fox, that does not change much of the concept we are talking about. It would still come down to the overall performance at tournaments. Clearly the evidence does not exist to handicap a character that isn't even consistently winning.
Also for low level play: I've seen more people not play smash simply cause of ATs and getting trounced then I ever have seen quit cause of wobbling. The low level argument is terrible logically because it is so easily slippery sloped to other techniques or styles of play. Using that argument shows little skill in debate or in being able to apply your concepts across the board. You can't just pick and choose what low level players don't like, cause honestly the options are so diverse you should probably just reduce that game to a single character with a single move on a single stage.
Against a patient player with good spacing and matchup knowledge, it's VERY hard to land the kind of grabs you need with ICs.
I have no problem grabbing people worse than me left and right all the time as much as I want, usually. But even if somebody is--by standards of who we can beat and how we play--worse than I am, just by knowing stuff about the matchup they can make it very difficult to land sync'ed grabs. I'm not saying it's some near-impossible feat, but it's way harder than landing grabs with the other high-tiers, which most people arguing against the infinite play as. Then they go and play their friend with NO practice versus ICs and go "I got a bunch of grabs my first time playing them, clearly 'tis broken."
All it takes is a few good hits from the other guy--if you're Ganon for instance, two f-airs--and I won't even be able to do it anymore because Nana will be dead. Again, no other character loses more than half of their techniques and damage when they get hit a couple times.
I have no problem grabbing people worse than me left and right all the time as much as I want, usually. But even if somebody is--by standards of who we can beat and how we play--worse than I am, just by knowing stuff about the matchup they can make it very difficult to land sync'ed grabs. I'm not saying it's some near-impossible feat, but it's way harder than landing grabs with the other high-tiers, which most people arguing against the infinite play as. Then they go and play their friend with NO practice versus ICs and go "I got a bunch of grabs my first time playing them, clearly 'tis broken."
All it takes is a few good hits from the other guy--if you're Ganon for instance, two f-airs--and I won't even be able to do it anymore because Nana will be dead. Again, no other character loses more than half of their techniques and damage when they get hit a couple times.
SwiftBass
Smash Hero
to add....I do think that people neglect the fact that nana has to be sync'd and present for it to work. A great masher(i.e Cort) I feel takes away lots of potential wobbling situations. The fact that nana does not shield exactly when popo(you) do and gets hit sometimes even if pop(you) block I feel neutralizes alot of arguments in favor of high success wobbling attempts on EVERY grab. I am not suggesting that ICs only get grabs with shield grabs but lets face it, as IC I feel like they have to keep the opponent honest with it more so than with other chars.
unknown522
Some guy
Wobbling isn't overpowered. They have trouble grabbing + syncing up to even perform the wobble. It doesn't break the game for them, and make them unbeatable god characters or anything.
on top of that, even with top level pros using this character, they haven't even been winning national tourneys even when wobbling is on. It's an annoyingly frustrating move, but it's pretty much like another CG.
It definitely shouldn't be banned.
on top of that, even with top level pros using this character, they haven't even been winning national tourneys even when wobbling is on. It's an annoyingly frustrating move, but it's pretty much like another CG.
It definitely shouldn't be banned.
ArcNatural
Banned ( ∫x, δx Points)
The only trend I'm seeing that seems to have a disparity is in regards of low level play. If wobbling doesn't make a difference in terms of overall standings (ie the best players are still going to beat the best ice climbers) why should we allow a tactic that makes it easier for ice climbers to beat lower leveled players?
I mean if it doesn't make a difference at high level but it does at low level, isn't this what we are basically creating? Easier lower skilled matchups or matches against people of comparable skill while not making a difference at the top level.
I mean if it doesn't make a difference at high level but it does at low level, isn't this what we are basically creating? Easier lower skilled matchups or matches against people of comparable skill while not making a difference at the top level.
So ban Lcanceling or shine spiking or waveshining or shl or up throw rest or etc etc (would be the exact same thing you are suggesting)? Please think through your argument, especially since it has already been addressed. You can't dumb things down for everyone because some people are bad players. Just imagine if you applied your 'logic' across the board...it's absurd.
At this point, I'd have been content had you left it at "That's absurd."
<_<
Of course, I feel the same way about Jigglypuff edge play, yet that seems to be a hot-button topic too. If that junk is working now I need to start coming back to tournaments and abusing it.
<_<
Of course, I feel the same way about Jigglypuff edge play, yet that seems to be a hot-button topic too. If that junk is working now I need to start coming back to tournaments and abusing it.
ArcNatural
Banned ( ∫x, δx Points)
I'm not arguing against it since I already am anti-ban. But I see your point.
unknown522
Some guy
I'm one of those salty players that thought wobbling shouldn't be banned until experiencing it more.
I put a lot of thought into it so that I wouldn't let bias come into play, but I talked with a lot of smashers, and just about everyone (including chu dat) thinks it should be banned. I agree now. I used to think of it the same as getting u-throw -> rested, but there are much more circumstances that make wobbling way more broken than that.
Even Alex Strife realized it was a mistake to keep it on, but oh well. Live and learn.
Fly_Amanita
Master of Caribou
I'm a little confused by your change of heart because everything in your earlier post is still true, except arguably "They have trouble grabbing + syncing up to even perform the wobble."
The two best ICs were at Apex and got 5th and 13th. I still see no reason to nerf a character that isn't even dominating tournaments.
The two best ICs were at Apex and got 5th and 13th. I still see no reason to nerf a character that isn't even dominating tournaments.
SwiftBass
Smash Hero
*insert post contradicting my views*
>______>
I dunno what to think about wobbling anymore. I tried to make sense of it but it doesn't work. hence the edit.
>______>
I dunno what to think about wobbling anymore. I tried to make sense of it but it doesn't work. hence the edit.
Divinokage
Smash Legend
Well the current skill level of the top players and high level players is much higher than before. So to pull off something like that is kinda tough.. but it did happen often enough which led them to a win. My stance on wobbling, I'm not exactly sure. Those are the 2 things that makes me undecided.
unknown522
Some guy
I really don't want to be offensive because I like them both, but they didn't deserve those placings. I'll type up an actual reason as to why, once I get on a better comp.
pockyD
Smash Legend
oh boy, i can't wait!
HyugaRicdeau
Baller/Shot-caller
I don't really see what argument there could be that supports the idea that they didn't deserve their placings aside from "Wobbling takes little skill," which is mostly irrelevant to the ban discussion, whether it's true or not.
I argue that I deserved my placing at that tournament because under that tournament's ruleset I got 5th place.
There's no way this argument can be beat.
I also still fail to see the difference between this and a 0% rest combo.
0% rest combos are survivable and punishable?
forward
Smash Champion
I have a personal beef with wobbling. I've played Wobbles a lot and have been on the receiving end of it more than a lot of other players. It takes my mind out of the game, I could be flowing with my character and in the zone until I get grabbed, then there is no DI or anything to think of that can keep my mind flowing.
That's a personal problem though, I'm not going to put my problems onto other players.
I win tournaments more often when wobbling is banned when Wobbles is around, and it should be that way. I'd lose more tournaments if I couldn't shine combo or spike or use a method to kill my opponents that my character has.
There's no way I can objectively give a reason to ban it, though. The best I could say is that I lose control of my character, but Wobbling is simply a longer up throw rest, or a longer shine spike, in that once the initial circumstances are met that your character is going to die.
I've gotten very angry at Wobbling and at Wobbles himself, I'll be honest. I'd be willing to bet that most people who have an objection to wobbling do so out of emotion and not through logic.
I have to, and we all have to, be willing to admit our short comings, admit defeat, admit our mistakes and our wrong guesses that lead to being wobbled. It's not easy, but for the sake of knowledge I believe it's something that has to be done.
Don't ban wobbling.
That's a personal problem though, I'm not going to put my problems onto other players.
I win tournaments more often when wobbling is banned when Wobbles is around, and it should be that way. I'd lose more tournaments if I couldn't shine combo or spike or use a method to kill my opponents that my character has.
There's no way I can objectively give a reason to ban it, though. The best I could say is that I lose control of my character, but Wobbling is simply a longer up throw rest, or a longer shine spike, in that once the initial circumstances are met that your character is going to die.
I've gotten very angry at Wobbling and at Wobbles himself, I'll be honest. I'd be willing to bet that most people who have an objection to wobbling do so out of emotion and not through logic.
I have to, and we all have to, be willing to admit our short comings, admit defeat, admit our mistakes and our wrong guesses that lead to being wobbled. It's not easy, but for the sake of knowledge I believe it's something that has to be done.
Don't ban wobbling.
unknown522
Some guy
^ sounds like you want it banned by your post, but it's clear that you don't.
Anyways, sorry for taking so long with my post. Computer johns, then I went to a smashfest yesterday and got back today, then APEX shoutouts. Here you go:
It's kind of BS that they can play sub-par and make poor decisions all the time, and then be like "oops, you made a mistake", or "oops, I out-prioritized your move. Now you lose a stock". It's really stupid that even if you know that you're gonna get hit, then you can't do anything in advance to make it go from a 0-death, to something less. At least with just about any other matchup, you can somehow prevent yourself from dieing in one hit. Many things get involved, such as proper DI, tricking your opponent, edge-cancels, ground-techs/wall techs, CCing, the opponents room for error, recoveries, stage positioning, character selection, and various other things can/will potentially help you at one time or another. Wobbling gives you no room for that (unless some stages help you, which is pretty unlikely). There's also pretty much no chance of them screwing up, because you just have to press "A" rhythmaticly with the same rhythm. There's no change during the infinite.
Also, with CCing being pretty powerful in smash, the fact that you will always die in one hit because you took advantage of an opening, is really dumb. On top of that, I've seen random bull**** like trading hits with nana because an opening was found, then being grabbed by popo and wobbled. That really boggles the mind on how stupid that is.
Being an average/predicable player gets completely negated by the fact that you need one hit to kill them. It's dumb that they can continuously make unsafe or bad decisions, but still come out on top, because your opponent made one mistake, or you did something right only once. The only reason they are not winning tourneys is because they are being held back by the fact that they are average/above average players, not top-level.
There's also that arguement about Jiggs' rest combos are as stupid as wobbling. When it comes to that, you can actually DI/CC to get out of some combos. u-throw -> rest especially. It also doesn't kill directly at 0%. Also, jiggs runs an actual risk when using her rest. She can actually take damage, or lose a stock for missing. What happens to the ICs if the somehow (won't happen, but theoretically) fail their wobble? Nothing. Reset positioning sort of I guess? At least with jiggs, there's an actually downside to her failing her rest. On top of that, even if you get rested you still get to punish her when you come back on your next stock. You can still break even when you get rested, instead of getting put into this huge disadvantage. Don't get me wrong. Jiggs is increadibly stupid as a character, but this is on another level.
Also, random thoughts: If you're going to use something that auto-kills any character, while they have no involvement in it and leave everything into the other player's control, then I don't see the point of the freeze glitch even being banned (aside from potential unfinished matches). But that can be controlled anyway, so it doesn't matter.
Anyways, sorry for taking so long with my post. Computer johns, then I went to a smashfest yesterday and got back today, then APEX shoutouts. Here you go:
It's kind of BS that they can play sub-par and make poor decisions all the time, and then be like "oops, you made a mistake", or "oops, I out-prioritized your move. Now you lose a stock". It's really stupid that even if you know that you're gonna get hit, then you can't do anything in advance to make it go from a 0-death, to something less. At least with just about any other matchup, you can somehow prevent yourself from dieing in one hit. Many things get involved, such as proper DI, tricking your opponent, edge-cancels, ground-techs/wall techs, CCing, the opponents room for error, recoveries, stage positioning, character selection, and various other things can/will potentially help you at one time or another. Wobbling gives you no room for that (unless some stages help you, which is pretty unlikely). There's also pretty much no chance of them screwing up, because you just have to press "A" rhythmaticly with the same rhythm. There's no change during the infinite.
Also, with CCing being pretty powerful in smash, the fact that you will always die in one hit because you took advantage of an opening, is really dumb. On top of that, I've seen random bull**** like trading hits with nana because an opening was found, then being grabbed by popo and wobbled. That really boggles the mind on how stupid that is.
Being an average/predicable player gets completely negated by the fact that you need one hit to kill them. It's dumb that they can continuously make unsafe or bad decisions, but still come out on top, because your opponent made one mistake, or you did something right only once. The only reason they are not winning tourneys is because they are being held back by the fact that they are average/above average players, not top-level.
There's also that arguement about Jiggs' rest combos are as stupid as wobbling. When it comes to that, you can actually DI/CC to get out of some combos. u-throw -> rest especially. It also doesn't kill directly at 0%. Also, jiggs runs an actual risk when using her rest. She can actually take damage, or lose a stock for missing. What happens to the ICs if the somehow (won't happen, but theoretically) fail their wobble? Nothing. Reset positioning sort of I guess? At least with jiggs, there's an actually downside to her failing her rest. On top of that, even if you get rested you still get to punish her when you come back on your next stock. You can still break even when you get rested, instead of getting put into this huge disadvantage. Don't get me wrong. Jiggs is increadibly stupid as a character, but this is on another level.
Also, random thoughts: If you're going to use something that auto-kills any character, while they have no involvement in it and leave everything into the other player's control, then I don't see the point of the freeze glitch even being banned (aside from potential unfinished matches). But that can be controlled anyway, so it doesn't matter.
I'd like to point out the actual closest thing you can relate to wobbling is Kirby's Swallowcide Cancel. If done properly it's an unpunishable instant kill. It works on all characters at all %s. If you have to relate it to something relate it to that LOL
However to add on to what Unown said, Jiggs' rest differs hugely from wobbling in that it stops being a usable option at certain %s for BOTH characters. Because its so punishable if DI'd correctly even if it would kill Jiggs players wont use it if their opponent is at high %s as there's better options. Conversely, unless Jiggs is at a stock lead using when the jiggs player is at high %s makes it a 1 for 1 stock trade. The window for when rest is a super dangerous move IS large but there still exists a time when its not a good choice. Wobbling is always the best choice.
However to add on to what Unown said, Jiggs' rest differs hugely from wobbling in that it stops being a usable option at certain %s for BOTH characters. Because its so punishable if DI'd correctly even if it would kill Jiggs players wont use it if their opponent is at high %s as there's better options. Conversely, unless Jiggs is at a stock lead using when the jiggs player is at high %s makes it a 1 for 1 stock trade. The window for when rest is a super dangerous move IS large but there still exists a time when its not a good choice. Wobbling is always the best choice.