Wobbling

[ArcNatural]

I'm not sure why this is even in discussion. It's always been TO discretion and we can't force TOs to just accept whatever we throw out if they still don't like it.

I'm in favor of it being legal, I don't like how long it takes to do but other than that I don't think it breaks the game.

Any more than upthrow rest does.

 

[pockyD]

EVERYTHING is 'TO discretion'

Doesn't mean we shouldn't try to find the 'right' answer anyway, even if half the TOs will ignore it

 

[AXE 09]

Everyone has some pretty interesting arguments about why this should/shouldn't be banned.

Some people see it as a technique that should not be banned. Why would you take away a technique from a character who's barely at high tier? If a character like Fox or Marth had this, it would be a different story. Also, this technique apparently isn't broken because it isn't winning any nationals or major tourneys.

Personally, I don't think wobbling should be allowed in any tournament. This technique will ALWAYS lead to death from a single grab at an extremely low percent, and is not difficult to perform. The only comparable move to this would be Jigglypuff's rest, but there's a major difference. If jiggs misses a rest, it can mean death for her or at least some major damage depending on the opponent's character. Even if Jiggs lands the rest, she will still get punished after the opponent respawn's depending on the DI of the rest. It's a high risk, high reward move. For the IC's, they will have no punishment (or very little punishment) for missing a grab. Basically a very low risk, extremely high reward technique.

At professional levels of play, players are capable of using their mobility to avoid being grabbed when Popo and Nana are synched together. This is why even the best IC's players do not win nationals when wobbling is allowed. However, at mid-lower level tournaments where less skilled players attend, someone that knows how to perform this technique correctly is likely to win the tournament. Someone like Wobbles will most likely not have a drastic change in tournament placings whether wobbling is turned on or not, because the players that are able to beat him excel at the ability to avoid getting grabbed when both climbers are together. However, a lesser-skilled IC's player with wobbling turned on will result in much more drastic changes when he fights another apponent. Most likely, he will be able to beat a lot of people who would've beaten him if wobbling is turned off. Even if the skill difference is large, he could still win almost solely because of wobbling.

Yes, in order to be a very good player you must learn how to avoid getting grabbed, but at lower levels of play, this just isn't fair.

Anyways... that's just my opinion on the whole thing. Please don't bash me for providing my input on the topic lol. Just trying to share my thoughts.

 

[swordgard]

Everyone has some pretty interesting arguments about why this should/shouldn't be banned.

Some people see it as a technique that should not be banned. Why would you take away a technique from a character who's barely at high tier? If a character like Fox or Marth had this, it would be a different story. Also, this technique apparently isn't broken because it isn't winning any nationals or major tourneys.

Personally, I don't think wobbling should be allowed in any tournament. This technique will ALWAYS lead to death from a single grab at an extremely low percent, and is not difficult to perform. The only comparable move to this would be Jigglypuff's rest, but there's a major difference. If jiggs misses a rest, it can mean death for her or at least some major damage depending on the opponent's character. Even if Jiggs lands the rest, she will still get punished after the opponent respawn's depending on the DI of the rest. It's a high risk, high reward move. For the IC's, they will have no punishment (or very little punishment) for missing a grab. Basically a very low risk, extremely high reward technique.

At professional levels of play, players are capable of using their mobility to avoid being grabbed when Popo and Nana are synched together. This is why even the best IC's players do not win nationals when wobbling is allowed. However, at mid-lower level tournaments where less skilled players attend, someone that knows how to perform this technique correctly is likely to win the tournament. Someone like Wobbles will most likely not have a drastic change in tournament placings whether wobbling is turned on or not, because the players that are able to beat him excel at the ability to avoid getting grabbed when both climbers are together. However, a lesser-skilled IC's player with wobbling turned on will result in much more drastic changes when he fights another apponent. Most likely, he will be able to beat a lot of people who would've beaten him if wobbling is turned off. Even if the skill difference is large, he could still win almost solely because of wobbling.

Yes, in order to be a very good player you must learn how to avoid getting grabbed, but at lower levels of play, this just isn't fair.

Anyways... that's just my opinion on the whole thing. Please don't bash me for providing my input on the topic lol. Just trying to share my thoughts.

Since when do we cater to low level of gameplay? I thought our motto was somewhere along playing to win.

 

[AXE 09]

Since when do we cater to low level of gameplay? I thought our motto was somewhere along playing to win.

Of course in a tournament, everyone should play to win. I'm just saying that I think the lower someone's skill level is, the greater of an effect wobbling will have.

 

[Luma]

= the less we should care about it

good marth grabbing a "bad" spacie means the stock is gone aswell

 

[Luma]

= the less we should care about it

good marth grabbing a "bad" spacie means the stock is gone aswell

 

[AXE 09]

good marth grabbing a "bad" spacie means the stock is gone aswell

Well yeah, but that's not what I'm saying.

I'm saying a "bad" IC's player who knows how to wobble grabbing a good (insert ANY character besides another IC's) means the stock is gone too, which just doesn't seem fair to me.

 

[Deleted member]

Anyways... that's just my opinion on the whole thing. Please don't bash me for providing my input on the topic lol. Just trying to share my thoughts.

On the contrary, welcome to the debate. As a member, new or old, being added here means that your input is valued.

The main subject of debate here I think has been skewed. I do not feel that the MBR should address the utility of playing Ice Climbers with or without this tactic. Instead, we should decide if the full removal of the opponent's control should be kept legal or not. Following Wobbles post from a few days ago, I have changed my mind after several years and I think it is acceptable regardless of the character that has it. However, I respect those arguments that maintain that it should be banned.

Let's make the best parallel we can for the time being. In the hands of any character, are we willing to accept a low risk OHKO that fully negates the control of the opponent?

 

[Pink Reaper]

Im in the same boat, this isnt a debate on the Ice Climbers, it's an examination of the technique itself. And unlike Mow I actually switched from a long time belief that it shouldnt be banned to a banned mindset.

If this was a technique that Pichu/Kirby(which ever you consider worse) had that gave them an unpunishable low % inescapable kill from a grab, even though both characters are ****ing terrible and would have trouble properly using it, it is still what fits the description of a broken technique(at least in my mindset) and should still be banned.

 

[D1]

Hax you sir are ********, and even though getting grabs w/ ICz are hard enough, it still happens. We want to encourage people to keep playing Melee remember?

This is definitely a step in the wrong direction.

 

[pockyD]

Im in the same boat, this isnt a debate on the Ice Climbers, it's an examination of the technique itself. And unlike Mow I actually switched from a long time belief that it shouldnt be banned to a banned mindset.

If this was a technique that Pichu/Kirby(which ever you consider worse) had that gave them an unpunishable low % inescapable kill from a grab, even though both characters are ****ing terrible and would have trouble properly using it, it is still what fits the description of a broken technique(at least in my mindset) and should still be banned.

please list any criteria that you would use to qualify any technique as 'broken'

Hax you sir are ********, and even though getting grabs w/ ICz are hard enough, it still happens. We want to encourage people to keep playing Melee remember?

This is definitely a step in the wrong direction.

If we want people to stay interested in the game, we really should not set a precedent of arbitrarily banning tactics that players invest time mastering and integrating into their gameplay

 

[Tero.]

Hax you sir are ********, and even though getting grabs w/ ICz are hard enough, it still happens. We want to encourage people to keep playing Melee remember?

This is definitely a step in the wrong direction.

We could encourage Low Tier players if we ban Fox, Sheik, Marth, Falco and Jigglypuff.
Who's with me?

 

[Mew2King]

edit - lag

 

[Mew2King]

edit - smashboards lag

 

[Mew2King]

that's why there's a thing called "low tiers" at certain tournaments. Such as Supercon coming up on Aug 13-14. Well, it's not really low tiers, but the highest low tier placer gets an extra 200 dollar bonus!!

banning sheik would be the best if low tiers want to compete

 

[Hax]

very good argument d1

 

[Mew2King]

falcon counters ice climbers imo. I 3 stocked Chu in tourney more than once using falcon against his ICs by just making sure to do long knee combos and avoid getting grabbed.

 

[pockyD]

neat .

 

[D1]

please list any criteria that you would use to qualify any technique as 'broken'



If we want people to stay interested in the game, we really should not set a precedent of arbitrarily banning tactics that players invest time mastering and integrating into their gameplay

Who really invests much time into mastering wobbling?

I learned it in a second. I've seen people come back from shinespikes but not wobbling. Even tho most Fox/Falco mains hate fightin M2K-like Marths on FD we still can beat 'em. Hell M2K beat Ken before on FD w/ Fox vs. Ken's Marth. (Not only once either.) History can definitely be repeated. Regardless of the fact that Marth can CG Falco and Fox to near death, they can still DI, come back...and **** Marth for not edgeguarding properly. Wobbling on the other hand is basically GG, onto the next stock.

banning sheik would be the best if low tiers want to compete

Also there aren't many Sheik mains around anymore tbh, reputable ones at least. Nowadays everyone uses spacies, and low tiers just love to fugg up spacies anyway so they shouldn't even complain about Sheik in the first place. I've seen low tier mains mixup their DI in hopes of getting outta a CG, if the player's messes up he can get out...with wobbling is there really a threat of not reading and reacting to the opponents DI to continue wobbling?

No.

As I said before, with the way the game is now with the release of Brawl...I say its for the best that this tactic stays six feet under. Lets keep people liking this game, regardless of how old it is.

I've seen worse destructive things w/ ICz anyway...especially after watching Fly Amanita matches.

 

[pockyD]

the technique itself, sure; takes 10-20 minutes tops probably

building an entire playstyle around getting grabs? takes considerably longer

some of the largest tournaments ever have had it legal; I haven't observed it discouraging anyone

...aside from those who we all know will just find the next most powerful technique to complain about

 

[D1]

That's a good point. Well we'll see what the public says, we're only individuals in the end, just speaking what's on our mind. Thanks for showing me the other side of the spectrum at least.

As far as Umbreon is concerned are you speaking of gimps to be exact? As a player of the caliber of Mang0 clearly displayed against M2K's Sheik while he was using Falco, the idea of escaping a low percent gimp is definitely feasible w/ the right DI, smart usage of the second jump, and correct means of returning back to the stage via a recovery move or a 2nd jump and fast/high priority attack used in conjunction to thwart the attempt.

 

[Mew2King]

chu's play style isn't around getting grabs, but he has ***** people by wobbling and is much harder to beat with wobbling legal than when it is not

 

[pockyD]

chu's also a significantly better player overall than most people he '*****' by using such a one-track strategy

that's like saying you (m2k) can '****' the average smasher with dr. mario... doesn't make dr. mario broken or even good

 

[Mew2King]

doc is amazing

 

[Tero.]

falcon counters ice climbers imo. I 3 stocked Chu in tourney more than once using falcon against his ICs by just making sure to do long knee combos and avoid getting grabbed.

Peach counters Ice Climbes imo. I 4 stocked some random in tourney more than once using Peach against his ICs by just making sure to do long dsmash combos and avoid getting grabbed.

Now how's that relevant to the current discussion?

[...]
Also there aren't many Sheik mains around anymore tbh, reputable ones at least.
[...]

You don't have to be a reputable Sheik main to **** LT players up.

 

[Marc]

How is Chu Dat someone random? -_- He's the pinnacle of ICs play, so him losing to Falcon is relevant.

EDIT: Thought this was the tier list thread. M2K mindgamed me. D:

 

[Deleted member]

I have already stated that chu has a personal distaste for the tactic and he does not want this debate centered around his performance. drop it guys.

 

[pockyD]

I don't understand how that's relevant [his permission to use him as an example]

We aren't making any assumptions about his beliefs or motives; we are only judging his results... which would be just as relevant if his name was subbed with "Player 2" in all results threads

 

[swordgard]

On the contrary, welcome to the debate. As a member, new or old, being added here means that your input is valued.

The main subject of debate here I think has been skewed. I do not feel that the MBR should address the utility of playing Ice Climbers with or without this tactic. Instead, we should decide if the full removal of the opponent's control should be kept legal or not. Following Wobbles post from a few days ago, I have changed my mind after several years and I think it is acceptable regardless of the character that has it. However, I respect those arguments that maintain that it should be banned.

Let's make the best parallel we can for the time being. In the hands of any character, are we willing to accept a low risk OHKO that fully negates the control of the opponent?

Alright, lets make a similar paralee. Let us judge rest as a technique on its own, are we willing to accept such a move?

OTKO move with virtually no risk if comboed into. Only drawback is you get a smash after if you mess up or get comboed. Take that move, and put it in fox's hands for example, as far as I know, he is part of the "any character" list. Fox+Rest seems kind of broken to me, up throw to rest, drill to rest, up tilt to rest. What about Marth? Seems to me like getting in close range has never been riskier. It is only risky to use rest with jiggs because she is light, but on most other chars eh, they can even combo into it often better than jiggs can and won't die if they fail to use it properly. Now lets say mewtwo. Still no better than mid-tier at best. What about Pichu? Still no better than decent either.

Conclusion? Take into account the character, a technique is only as good as what the character can make out of it. Otherwise I swear we should ban sheiks down-throw chaingrab, as it destroys so much of the cast. It is "broken" until you take into account the fact that sheik still loses to top tiers. It destroys character diversity, but since sheik still loses to spacies/others, the technique should not be banned.

The same thing can be applied to whobbling. We do take into consideration the character, otherwise we are going to have to ban alot of other techniques.

 

[AlphaZealot]

I agree here, I don't understand why you would look at the move as if it could be applied to other characters. It can't, it is a useless hypothetical. In the end this move isn't in the hands of any character. It is in the hands of the Ice Climbers, and because it requires both Nana/Popo present it also requires a bunch of other preconditions that can never be met by any other character in the game simply because no other character exists as two controllable entities. Creating a "broad" definition of a bannable move when it really is only this move that people want to target is also useless, considering all it would do is bring in other moves into the debate of things to ban when clearly no other move causes the same hysteria.

There is no debacle. This is all simple eye-of-the-beholder stuff. You are trying to elevate combo-to-deaths to a higher prestige label than a Wobbles, despite the same complexity of initial requirements and same end result. That the middle differs in execution is not a reason to treat them differently.

This is more or less how I feel, along with Wobbles arguments which I've almost always agreed with in regards to this move.

People for some reason have always hated extreme punishes in Smash. The reality is there are a few that exist and unlike other fighting games, at worst you lose "25%" of your "health bar". You have to make 4 very huge mistakes to lose a game solely to wobbling.

 

[Wobbles]

People for some reason have always hated extreme punishes in Smash. The reality is there are a few that exist and unlike other fighting games, at worst you lose "25%" of your "health bar". You have to make 4 very huge mistakes to lose a game solely to wobbling.

Wrong. The moment I have decided to Wobble, your fate is sealed. Just give up and hand me your money.

 

[swordgard]

Wrong. The moment I have decided to Wobble, your fate is sealed. Just give up and hand me your money.

We heard it here first.

Wobbles now has apex 2010 and genesis 2.

 

[SwiftBass]

*chimes in about wobbling*

I feel like IC as a character is enough of a handicap. I wonder how people would feel if a character like marth or fox could wobble.

Aren't I supposed to get some text color change?

 

[Pink Reaper]

User CP->User Groups->Identify as MBR

 

[DoH]

If Nana is alive you're not doing your job right. She's a ****ing computer and you know when she's going to try and double jump back on the stage.

Also, banning things without warrants/evidence? What in the actual ****? Arbitrary decisions are the worst.

 

[Hax]

the fact that wobbling has never actually proven to be even remotely devastating during tournament play means it should not be banned until its proven to be such a threat

 

[Divinokage]

the fact that wobbling has never actually proven to be even remotely devastating during tournament play means it should not be banned until its proven to be such a threat

Well I've personally never had that issue.. I guess it's the match-up advantage?

 

[Mew2King]

ganon and falcon do amazingly vs ICs

ICs can't grab those characters at all

 

[Magus420]

Stumbled on something: http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=10701222&postcount=737

Blizzard infinites.