Wobbling: To ban or not to ban on our side of the Atlantic?

[Marc]

Not really, as his example of Akuma illustrates. But what are we talking about, that isn't even the case. -_-

 

[Ryuker]

Peach bomber stalling is not as instant like you make it sound. How is it game breaking. You can go after the peach. It has a really high chance of being screwed up and if you attack the peach most opf the time it means bye bye stock for the both. Actually a fairer trade then wobbling.
Now if that is seen as game breaking what makes it so different from wobbling?

Actually your basically proving here that peach bomber stalling is not game breaking so why is it banned actually? Why is yoshi island banned? Cause of fox right and the slope on the right. It is more balanced then allowing wobbling... . If we are allowing wobbling it is time to open up the entire discussion again about what is game breaking and where we cross the line. All the other stuff banned in the past have to be debated again. I don't really feel like that too be honest but if were gonna do it the right way this is the only way...

Also you state this not a thread to make up a new rule then this thread is basically done but it means there is a high need for a new thread that discusses just that.

Also why is pausing banned? First thing your gonna say is cause it freezes the game. But it doesn't the game is still running. It takes control away from 1 player. And it can be stopped whenever the other wants. Sounds a lot like what wobbling does as well ....

Also does it really have to come to a point that there is hardly any fun left in playing this game. That is also what I mean by the loss of depth all the other stuff have in some way added depth while wobbling doesn't. I think that should be open for debate as well.

 

[Marc]

Peach bomber stalling is not as instant like you make it sound. How is it game breaking. You can go after the peach. It has a really high chance of being screwed up and if you attack the peach most opf the time it means bye bye stock for the both. Actually a fairer trade then wobbling.

No, it's often not byebye stock for both. And it's also a fairer trade than the opponent hitting you and you not hitting back, but since when are we doing trades?

First of all, the wobbling debate has nothing to do with stages, stuff like ASP, or even rules about pausing or beating up your opponent in real life. It also isn't a stalling technique when a limit is imposed. So no, debating it doesn't mean we should debate EVERY SINGLE THING we have established throughout the years again. If wobbling was that similar to other stuff, there wouldn't have been a debate. I certainly don't see the US in chaos because wobbling has destroyed their rulesets... =X Also note that stuff like wobbling is much more like stuff other fighting game communities face, whereas stages playing differently is something pretty much unique for smash. It also doesn't help your case at all to just get other stuff involved, and debating it any further will turn this topic into a mess.

For the record, this is also the last time I will actually respond to ridiculous claims and remarks like this. If you want to seriously unban something, make a case for it somewhere else, it doesn't have anything to do with wobbling. Please keep some logic in it and don't try to push everything in the absurd. You're basically acting like Ice Climbers wobbled your mother and got her pregnant, don't do that. =p

Also does it really have to come to a point that there is hardly any fun left in playing this game. That is also what I mean by the loss of depth all the other stuff have in some way added depth while wobbling doesn't. I think that should be open for debate as well.

Hardly any fun left? I could call you a scrub and leave it at that... I personally feel more and more things have popped up in this game throughout the years that aren't fun or at least weren't fun at the time. The point is I don't let my feelings dictate my opinion and honesty.

At this point, my proposal is to give this debate a rest for a while, before it turns into a mess, and see how things play out in the US. This obviously means wobbling won't get banned for the time being, but that was to be expected, since there is no consensus on it anywhere and the majority of smash players, hosts and debaters seem to be against banning it at the moment.

 

[Fuzzyness]

peach bomber stall was banned because you can stall time and win by time default (8 min rule), Would you like it if you was losing and the peach player stalled 30 seconds or more doing it? This is the same for jigglypuff or whatever char stalling is banned, not just the peach bomb stall..Jiggz can do just as lame stuff =)

 

[shoe]

Shoe, I don't want to sound harsh, but ffs stop making stupid examples.

Like Marc said those are analogies, and mostly driven into the extreme. I use stupid examples to show how stupid logic can lead to stupid discussions. Its supposed to sound ridiculous in order to illustrate how the rules you guys come up with sound ridiculous in my ears.

For the example that probably looks the most stupid to you, Mewto's upthrow. I'm not saying its like Wobbling, I'm just countering Ryuker's 'a technique that gives a KO out of a grab after x percent should not be allowed'. And yet, it still makes a better comparission to Wobbling than Bomber stalling does, but that's not the point, so let's not get into that .

 

[Ryuker]

No, it's often not byebye stock for both. And it's also a fairer trade than the opponent hitting you and you not hitting back, but since when are we doing trades?

Have you even experienced it? I haven't seen anyone stall like this in europian tourney. It was banned before it had a chance to have an impact like that. You know why it's actually banned. Cause one player would have to go down there all the time and hit the peach from that position often meaning both losing stocks. We found this no way to fight in this game. That is why people wanted to see it banned.

First of all, the wobbling debate has nothing to do with stages, stuff like ASP, or even rules about pausing or beating up your opponent in real life. It also isn't a stalling technique when a limit is imposed. So no, debating it doesn't mean we should debate EVERY SINGLE THING we have established throughout the years again. If wobbling was that similar to other stuff, there wouldn't have been a debate. I certainly don't see the US in chaos because wobbling has destroyed their rulesets... =X Also note that stuff like wobbling is much more like stuff other fighting game communities face, whereas stages playing differently is something pretty much unique for smash. It also doesn't help your case at all to just get other stuff involved, and debating it any further will turn this topic into a mess.

It does. You say something is only banned when it is gamebreaking however if you allow wobbling it means your allowing something more game breaking then some stuff we have banned is. There is something wrong with that. I brought op pausing cause if you could pasue during wobbling it would actually not be a problem but that would mean there wouldn't be a point in wobbling at all. You said punching someone is out of the scope of the game but pausing isn't. I was just asking for clear reason why pausing is banned but you haven't answered it cause you think it is a rediculous question but if you think about it it isn't at all >.>. If you can say that I can say your points are rediculous as well and we wouldn't be able to have any kind of debate then.

For the record, this is also the last time I will actually respond to ridiculous claims and remarks like this. If you want to seriously unban something, make a case for it somewhere else, it doesn't have anything to do with wobbling. Please keep some logic in it and don't try to push everything in the absurd. You're basically acting like Ice Climbers wobbled your mother and got her pregnant, don't do that. =p

I'm not trying to unban anything I'm trying to make our judgement fair....

Hardly any fun left? I could call you a scrub and leave it at that... I personally feel more and more things have popped up in this game throughout the years that aren't fun or at least weren't fun at the time. The point is I don't let my feelings dictate my opinion and honesty.

Then you mean we do not play this game in some way to have fun? Fun does matter in a way otherwise we wouldn't be playing.

At this point, my proposal is to give this debate a rest for a while, before it turns into a mess, and see how things play out in the US. This obviously means wobbling won't get banned for the time being, but that was to be expected, since there is no consensus on it anywhere and the majority of smash players, hosts and debaters seem to be against banning it at the moment.

If I understand all that you said then wobbling never had a chance to be banned cause it doesn't become banworthy however I agree with amsah it is time to start redefining game breaking or make up a new one.

Also Shoe peach bomber stalling is a great example on what is ban worthy. Mewtwo uthrow isn't cause it goes above 100 %. Wobbling is a special case.

 

[Faab]

The pausing argument is one of the most stupid things i've heard so far. Even though it can have the same effect as wobbling. When someone is recovering and you press start, they're screwed. (Tried it a few times in friendlies ) And unless you can wobble in the **** air while they are recovering the whole argument is nothing. Besides that you can press start at any moment of the game while you can't do that with wobbling.

 

[Marc]

The Peach often has a chance to get back on the stage and starts stalling because she's in the lead to begin with... If she has 2 stocks and the opponent has 1, both losing a stock still lets Peach win.

I still enjoy the game, but there are certainly things about it I don't really like or found fun when they first came up. Adapting and getting better however, is fun. =]

I consider pausing to be outside the scope of the game, besides the stuff Faab said.

I was not in charge of everything that got banned in this game worldwide, but I also don't have many complaints really. Because SSBM's stages are so unique, there aren't set rules to banning them everyone agreed on (no Sirlin answer ), although there are of course some guidelines. That's why stage sets are a bit different everywhere (but really not that different). People generally agreed that stages with walls, stages where you can walk off the screen and stages where you can run away and camp badly can lead to situations where the person in the lead can put himself in a very favorable position that makes the opponent's comeback very unlikely. Some stages are just random or glitched, and some stages make you fight the stage instead of your opponent. While not everyone agrees on all this and there are a few grey areas, there definitely is some logic behind it.

Besides the fact that it's completely different from stages, when you start discussing the banning of characters and techniques, you get into a topic all fighting game communities face. Many of those games have strong (boss) characters and/or techniques that deal a lot of damage easily or glitches that make a certain tactic very powerful. So looking at how those communities deal with it, is certainly a good way to approach this, which is also why I think some of Sirlin's articles are such a good read for everyone involved with competitive gaming. Even if you don't agree with it, you'll have to accept most competitive players do, maybe the article wasn't meant for you because you're really not as competitive as you think.

 

[Ryuker]

The Peach often has a chance to get back on the stage and starts stalling because she's in the lead to begin with... If she has 2 stocks and the opponent has 1, both losing a stock still lets Peach win.

It is a lot harder then that. She needs to be at the right hight and pretty low so she has a hard chance making it back and she can getspiked or hit out of it by really strong moves. Because both player lose a stock in exchange it makes for a fairer trade then wobbling ...

I consider pausing to be outside the scope of the game, besides the stuff Faab said.

Can you explain why? I consider wobbling out side the scope of the game. Also would there be a possibility that pausing during wobbling and only wobbling is allowed besides the other stuff that is just common sence like game interruptions and such?

I was not in charge of everything that got banned in this game worldwide, but I also don't have many complaints really. Because SSBM's stages are so unique, there aren't set rules to banning them everyone agreed on (no Sirlin answer ), although there are of course some guidelines. That's why stage sets are a bit different everywhere (but really not that different). People generally agreed that stages with walls, stages where you can walk off the screen and stages where you can run away and camp badly can lead to situations where the person in the lead can put himself in a very favorable position that makes the opponent's comeback very unlikely. Some stages are just random or glitched, and some stages make you fight the stage instead of your opponent. While not everyone agrees on all this and there are a few grey areas, there definitely is some logic behind it.

And there isn't logic in my points? A wobbler puts him self very fast in favorable position. If you wanna beat a camper keep the lead. If you wanna beat a wobbler don't get grabbed that's what you saying. Yet we ban other game changing stuff. I just don't see a line crossed between the 2.

Also about stages I was more looking for an answer that clears up what kind of matches we wanna see up to a point cause that is the reason they are banned. Cause it changed the gameplay so dramatically. However if you look at a match at yoshi island with a fox it is actualy a fairer match to play then when you play a wobbling ice climber since the slope is at the same place all the time. It would be a different fight yet but you can't deny a ice climber player is in a favored position when nana is close aswell especially cause they can dodge what ever you do and go in for the grab and bam you just lost a stock.

Besides the fact that it's completely different from stages, when you start discussing the banning of characters and techniques, you get into a topic all fighting game communities face. Many of those games have strong (boss) characters and/or techniques that deal a lot of damage easily or glitches that make a certain tactic very powerful. So looking at how those communities deal with it, is certainly a good way to approach this, which is also why I think some of Sirlin's articles are such a good read for everyone involved with competitive gaming. Even if you don't agree with it, you'll have to accept most competitive players do, maybe the article wasn't meant for you because you're really not as competitive as you think.

I'm not getting in other fighting game communities face cause this is smash not a other fighter. There is no other fighter like smash and thus I think we need different rules. By saying we need to redefine gamebreaking I don't mean we redefine game breaking for other games just the one we play. I especially think we need to reconsider stuff that we have taken from other figting game communities cause smash is so different.

 

[Moggie]

. If wobbling was that similar to other stuff, there wouldn't have been a debate. I certainly don't see the US in chaos because wobbling has destroyed their rulesets...

I was planning on lurking this thread from now on, but this post and a couple of other points have made me want to share my opinion on this again.

Actually, yes. There ARE debates in the US about wobbling, haven't I already said that ? Wobbling is not the same as any other technique in that it is inescapable by ANY character, and it is always an instant kill when used.

The reason that our rulesets aren't "in chaos" is because there are, what, 2 or 3 good IC's in the entire world ? The Wobbling technique has a major impact on TWO areas of skill; the best players in the world and those who are not skilled. Now, no one has bothered to refute this, so I am going to post about it again.

1. If Chu Dat, who normally gets grabs on the likes of Ken/Isai/PC starts to use wobbling seriously, who is going to beat him ? Chu can go stock for stock with ANYBODY in the world WITHOUT this technique, much less handing him a free kill everytime he grabs you. For your information, Chu has used Wobbling a few times, but never tried winning a tourney with this move.
2. On the other hand, we give a technique for mid-level players to beat people better than them, which is implied considering that we are handing them a top-tier type technique, which is easy to perform (especially at this level of play)and STILL inescapable. What do we do about this ?

There aren't very many IC players, much less one for every community, and thus the reason again that it isn't upsetting the rulesets: the technique isn't used enough (yet) to MAKE people see that it IS making a difference. This is the difference between myself and any European player; I have PERSONALLY seen the aftereffects, and you guys have not because it has not yet happened in Europe.

At this point, my proposal is to give this debate a rest for a while, before it turns into a mess, and see how things play out in the US. This obviously means wobbling won't get banned for the time being, but that was to be expected, since there is no consensus on it anywhere and the majority of smash players, hosts and debaters seem to be against banning it at the moment.

Do you want to know how much the outcome of Evo South impacted Smash in Texas, where I live, and where Evo took place ? It is an unspoken rule that Wobbling is permanently banned from EVERY tourney. Everyone would refuse to attend tourneys if it was allowed, which hasn't even been SUGGESTED, because everyone already knows it. THAT is how broken this move is, that our entire state knows that this move WILL change tourneys for the worse and doesn't even allow it.

---------------------

Kudos to whoever posted that WE are the governing community for what happens with our game. Some people act as if the rules can't be changed, and they forget that the players are the ones who make the rules! This alone makes us different than any other competitive community, in that there is no untouchable governing body who tells us how to play our game. Honestly, knowing that we have that freedom gives me a GREAT sense of pride in our community, and makes me never want to leave it.

Say for instance, that this thread changes the mind of the person holding a local tournament. So that person decides to allow/not allow wobbling, thus changing how their community plays the game. If everyone doesn't like that tactic being allowed/not allowed, they can all decide that they want that rule changed. That is awesome :D gj smash.

edit : btw, we've known about Wobbling for years, there was just an unspoken rule to NOT use it. Now that it is being used, the community has to decide if we want to allow this tactic or not. Again, this makes us very unique.

 

[Marc]

Ryuker: Pausing the game is just that, pausing the game. It's not a move. And for the other stuff, I was explaining the reasoning behind it, not really defending it or whatever. Like I said before, I consider stages to be a completely different aspect of the game, besides the fact I like to give everything a fair chance and discuss it on its own. If you really want to go into stages, you can look up a random discussion thread on Smashboards or ask me about it on MSN, this thread isn't right for it. Stage debating has been done to death though, even a recent attempt in the MBR to go over them again has lead to nothing, people are done with it. Bomber stalling etc too, there are topics out there with much more info on it than I can give you now while I'm actually here to talk about something else.

How do you want to redefine 'game breaking', when the meaning is in the term itself?

Actually, yes. There ARE debates in the US about wobbling, haven't I already said that ? Wobbling is not the same as any other technique in that it is inescapable by ANY character, and it is always an instant kill when used.

I've stated many times that wobbling is unique, that why I think people are scared of it to begin with. I'm also very well aware of the fact it has been debated a lot, BUT those debates haven't lead to banning wobbling everywhere. The chaos bit was in response to Ryuker, who claimed that we should redo our entire ruleset because of wobbling, that doesn't happen anywhere.

The Texas people might have concluded wobbling is broken because of their experience with Wobbles, but people who have played against Chu have concluded the opposite, that it's beatable and not broken at all. There's actually a tournament match of him wobbling against Azen's Falcon on Youtube at a tournament, he kills him with it twice, but loses the match. That just doesn't seem broken to me. So basically we have experienced opinion vs experienced opinion. You can say we haven't really experienced it yet, which is true, but that seems like all the more reason not to ban it yet imo.

Kudos to whoever posted that WE are the governing community for what happens with our game. Some people act as if the rules can't be changed, and they forget that the players are the ones who make the rules! This alone makes us different than any other competitive community, in that there is no untouchable governing body who tells us how to play our game. Honestly, knowing that we have that freedom gives me a GREAT sense of pride in our community, and makes me never want to leave it.

There's not really a community with a rule god, it's just that most communities use the same style of reasoning. Our community allows for minor personal differences on ruleset views with stages, ASP etc, but some things are simply true for all fighting game communities. They work, there's reasoning behind it. It's not lack of freedom, it's lack of anarchism. The basic mechanism being that when you're playing to win, in a competitive setting, you don't ban stuff you 'just don't like', you only ban stuff that breaks the game and turns it into a 'who-does-it-first' bloodbath. Improving also means overcoming stuff that seems very hard to deal with at first. Of course, when something becomes instant-win and impossible to beat, you can ban it. I acknowledge smash as a competitive game, so I embrace the logic that comes with it worldwide. Sirlin put it to words nicely, but it's still something that lives among many players and is more of a general opinion written out by one person. Anyone involved with competitive gaming should have at least read his 'playing to win' articles some time imo.

Say for instance, that this thread changes the mind of the person holding a local tournament. So that person decides to allow/not allow wobbling, thus changing how their community plays the game. If everyone doesn't like that tactic being allowed/not allowed, they can all decide that they want that rule changed. That is awesome :D gj smash.

You could say the same has happened with Akuma in Super Turbo Street Fighter (yes, another Sirlin example). It's a very extreme case of a top tier character, against whom most characters don't ever have a chance to win. The community of that game decided to just ban him from serious matches. If the entire community says 'we don't want wobbling in our game', it will get banned, every fighting game community has power like that, there's no government here.

edit : btw, we've known about Wobbling for years, there was just an unspoken rule to NOT use it. Now that it is being used, the community has to decide if we want to allow this tactic or not. Again, this makes us very unique.

Hm, I don't know about the unspoken rule, I think it's partially true though. I also think no one tried to use it seriously before, so I doubt everyone knew it could be implemented so well in tournament play. So far, the community has mixed feelings about it, so banning it won't happen until more people feel it's broken.

 

[Nihonjin]

Marc, link me to the chu vs azen match.

 

[Zgetto]

volgens mij is het deze match^^
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xlhEaP-EeOI

 

[Thomaz]

Azen is te goed. En Falcon ook.