Wobbling: To ban or not to ban on our side of the Atlantic?

[shoe]

Considering the discussion currently going on about wobbling in the US, I wonder whether we should ban it in Europe. Seeing how we are a different continent with another version even I figured that we could use a wobbling topic of our own.

Wobbling: Alternating headbutts and f-tilts (or d-tilt, leaving an unrealistically small room of 1 frame to escape) during an Ice Climber grab in order to keep the opponent stuck in the grab, resulting in an infinite.
Needed to set-up infinite:
- Nana synched
- Some damage (realistic to say it’s a 20%-death combo)
- No stage interference (stage changing on Pokémon Stadium/moving stage etc.)
- A bit of timing

I have read numerous posts that advocate the banning of Wobbling. Calling it an unbreakable and overpowering tactic, because it is a guaranteed combo leaving no room for DI and is easy enough to never mess up. I have also read posts that state that it will be extremely dominating on lower levels of play. Some people even fear that Ice Climbers will remain the only playable character because of their immunity to Wobbling.

I for one am against the banning of wobbling. I don’t see how people can already call it overpowered without ever being proven so. All I see is a fear for a change in the game. Wobbling certainly is a meta-game changing technique, it is certainly unbalanced, but which top tier character doesn’t have something unbalanced? Isn’t imbalance in many characters another word for balance? With all of the Sheiks, Foxes and Falcos around I cannot see how we would be against a character being able to counter them, also allowing for characters like Peach and Samus to make more of an appearance again.

Why would the fact of the combo being guaranteed, or the opinion of it being easy make it ban worthy? We might just as well ban Peach’s chaingrab on fastfallers than. And ease of use is way too subjective to be viable. I find L-cancelling to be easy, all of these space animals that L-cancel aerials into shine on my shield all day can never get sheildgrabbed anymore. I say that is broken, let’s ban L-cancelling! Of course, none of this is quite as powerful as a Wobble, and Wobbling will easily be the most powerful technique in the game If Ice Climbers can get a grab off under quite situational circumstances.

I wouldn’t like to see the technique banned, or at least, not yet. Certainly on a lower level of play Ice Climbers will dominate, but after getting wobbled all day mostly anyone will be able to train a somewhat Ice Climber countering Peach.

I think that, if anything, a metagame changing technique should be encouraged, because from my point of view smash is more and more turning into a Fox, Falco and Sheik game. Perhaps Wobbling is overpowered, perhaps not. I think we should find out before banning it. At this point I believe it wouldn’t be a wise decision to ban it, let’s see how it turns out; let’s see whether n00bs can beat pros with Wobbling, because I highly doubt it. Let’s see how everyone is going to be playing Ice Climbers and Peach. If any of this happens, than we can say that this tactic is overpowered, and than we can make a more educated decision on the banning of Wobbling.

 

[Ryuker]

I already posted about this in the ros4 thread when the discussion was going on. What your saying all sounds really nice in theory but it really is in a league of it's own. Get one grab and it's goodbye stock. I don't fear the n00bs using it but what I fear is the pro's using it. Try fighting amsah's icy's now since he uses the wobble for fun sometimes and you'll say it's a **** pain in the ***. He outthinks you and at the same time that mistake cost you an entire stock. In my opinion we shouldn't be afraid of n00bs beating pro's we should be afraid of pro's beating n00bs like it's nothing at all that they can hardly stand a chance against.

Now your comparing it to shorthoppen attack on shield that get l- cancelled but you can't even draw that comparison since you can avoid it by either clashing or escaping. If you mess up you can still shield and other wise you can get out of the setup or make them miss their combo since a shorthopped attack that get's l-cancel doesn't immidiatly take that stock. Thats the big difference it allows you to make atleast 1 mistake. Wobbling doesn't. At the same time ice climbers got so many other infinites that can be used that can be just as deadly but just require a bit more effort and skill so I see no point in allowing wobbling.

On top of that it is a infinite that can be executed at a lot of places other then waveshine infinites which can only be done in a few places and hardly any stage allows for a true infinite. That means that wobbling became more easy then a 4 hit combo which is just rediculous if you ask me.

 

[shoe]

The shffl comparision wasn't supposed to make it seem comparable to wobbling, just to show how trivial the arguement of 'ease of use' is. And you could very well be right about it being in a league of it's own, but seriously, I don't believe we should ban something even before it has been proven to be overpowered. And most other 'infinites', like the d-throw-d-air chain can be smash DI'd, so there is certainly a point to using it.

Seeing no point in allowing it can just as well be turned around and saying there is no point in banning it because Ice Climbers are equally deadly without it, according to you.

And yes, it's a powerful technique that is less situational than waveshine infinites. And I still cannot agree on an arguement based on 'ease of use'.

Again, I'm not saying that it should never be banned, I'm saying that we should wait and see where it goes before banning it.

 

[Helios]

I likey this thread <3

This is why I haven't banned wobbling for ros4.. at least not yet

 

[7!11]

Hm...Wobbling is required to be banned, if someone defeats top players such as Ken, PC Chris and Nihonjin by means of the usage of Wobbling. It didn´t happen yet. Wobbles is even not the best player in his state Arizona. So in my opinion you can call Wobbling an overpowering tactic as soon as an ice climbers player wins a big tournament mainly because of the usage of Wobbling. Then you can ban this tactic but as long as there are still players who deal with Wobbling there´s no reason to ban it. And indeed there are still enough players who do.

You should also see that Wobbes demonstrates an intensive usage of Wobbling but he shows alot of other ice climber skills for example awesome spacing, good desynching etc.. So you can´t play ice climbers really well just because of desynching. You need alot of practice and experience to play good ice climbers.

 

[Ryuker]

Even if the dair chain is smash DI'd it can still follow up. It's a infinite that requires more skill and effort which is why I think wobbling is just to easy. Heck I managed to win a match vs helios's falco once even though my icy's suck using wobbling. Now I don't see a reason why it should be allowed but everytime there is a arguement about it I see more reason coming up to ban it. The arguement if wobbling is gonna beat Amsah or ken or whatever is a bit stupid IMO since those players are at such a high lvl that it takes a lot more then just wobbling to beat them. However since there has never been wobbler's in europe before the wobbling was known I don't see why we should allow this. Like I said Icy's have plenty of infinites to make up for the lack of wobbling that just require more effort and give there opponent atleast some chance of escaping.

Instead of talking about why we should ban it I'd like to hear some more reasons why wobbling should be allowed cause none of the reasons seems really valid or necessary to me.

 

[Nihonjin]

I can't believe what I'm reading.
I'll edit my post when the shock clears.

Hm...Wobbling is required to be banned, if someone defeats top players such as Ken, PC Chris and Nihonjin by means of the usage of Wobbling. It didn´t happen yet. Wobbles is even not the best player in his state Arizona. So in my opinion you can call Wobbling an overpowering tactic as soon as an ice climbers player wins a big tournament mainly because of the usage of Wobbling. Then you can ban this tactic but as long as there are still players who deal with Wobbling there´s no reason to ban it. And indeed there are still enough players who do.

And oh, wobbles won Evo without losing a single match.
And sure, wobbles isn't best in Arizona, but I'm pretty sure he's ALOT higher than he would be without wobbling.

*edit*

Saying "until a random n00b wins a tournament it shouldn't be banned" is the biggest bull**** I've ever heard in my life.
Wobbling by itself isn't tournament winning, but it DOES let you compete with people tier(s) above your skill level.

Look at our dutch tier list. (sadly enough we don't have an IC player I can use as an example)

*note*The tiers represent major gaps in skill, people from one tier most likely won't beat people from a higher tier in a tournament match.

1st tier
1) Amsah

2nd tier
2) Faab
3) Dave
4) Remen
5) Marc
6) Choco
7) Rens\NGCXX***
8) Ivo
9) Johnny Boy

3rd tier
10) Utto
11) Adam
12) Zgetto
13) Linkje
14) Beunhaas

4th tier
15)Down A
16)NGCXX
17)C&B
18)Reffie
19) Biscuit

NGCXX*** = Coen + Wobbling

If Coen mained IC's and started wobbling then he'd probably be able to compete with everyone up to Ivo, maybe even more.
Sure, he wouldn't win the tournament, but he'd place alot higher than he should.
All that because he practiced wobbling for 5 mins because he was bored and its not banned.
Its easy, its broken.

 

[Ijuka]

Ban it. >__________> I wont bother even arguing, I'm sure Amsah does that way better.

 

[Marc]

I personally haven't really taken a stance on the whole wobbling issue yet, as in that I don't think it should be banned immediately. I do think that it's at risk to get banned in the (near) future.

When you get grabbed by a good Ice Climbers player, you are certain to take a lot of damage and there's a good chance of you dying. Although it varies with the character (Sheik often gets punished far more than, for example, Marth), players like Chu Dat don't let anyone get away with just a scratch. Wobbling is basically an extension of the chain grab combo's that hurts all characters equally bad. However, it's true that your chances of escaping are even smaller.

Wobbling doesn't take much effort for an experienced wobbler, but does that really matter? Ease shouldn't be a factor imo, it's not like the 'regular' combo's Ice Climbers have are all that hard, especially on characters like Sheik. There's also the point that certain conditions have to met in order for it to be even possible (Nana has to be there, no stage interference etc).

It is also very true that no one in the entire world has reached the absolute top with it. Although Chu uses it now every so often, he was already up there to begin with. Wobbles has had some successes with it, but nothing THAT big. It also wouldn't prove that much if Amsah were to take some Dutch tournament using wobbling, he'd probably have won anyway.

Personally, I think wobbling is totally gay. I already disliked how Ice Climbers play before the whole wobbling thing came up and I sincerily hope they won't return in Brawl. The entire character can be banned for all I care, what I wrote is for argument's sake more than anything else. Stuff shouldn't be banned just because you don't like it though.

 

[Marc]

I can't believe what I'm reading.
I'll edit my post when the shock clears.

Can't believe what? Both stances have been taken. :S Here's hoping that you actually will edit some arguments in for a change.

Also, good **** @ shoe for making a topic that actually has value.

Btw, we could get this over with by simply banning Moreno. There, problem solved.

 

[Nihonjin]

No, I can't believe you guys want to wait until it destroyes a tournament before you ban it.

Its like leaving a loaded gun in a class full of children saying "Well, until one of them picks up the gun and shoots someone I don't see any reason to remove it"

What the hell happend to PREVENTIVE Action?

 

[Marc]

1. I'm not saying we wait until someone uses it and destroys the community, I'm saying we wait until there's some more reason and logic behind banning it.

2. It's already been used and didn't break tournaments, at least not on a big scale. Wobblers still lose.

3. It isn't as easy as you make it out to be, there is no consensus whatsoever on the matter.

 

[shoe]

@ Amsah: I know you, and most of the other players that have posted here are better players than me, and most of them also have a much better insight in the game. Especially you, and I respect you and your opinions on smash, and even believe that there is quite a large chance of you being right. But come on, I don't see a way to debate in posting something along the lines of 'I don't believe what I'm seeing', and afterwards posting some random guess of where Coen would stand while using Wobbling, seriously, maybe he would place there, maybe lower maybe higher, but I don't see a viable arguement. No single person, as far as I am aware, in Europe, has made any accomplishment using wobbling. I know you can win tournies using it, but hell, you can win tournaments with a lot more challenging factors, so I don't really see that as a point. I think we should allow it for a while, and see what it does.

By the way, I think that Wobbling is totally gay, I have recently picked up Ice Climbers, and refuse to Wobble ever (except Maybe in friendlies against down-gAys Peach MMMaybe lol). But I really think that there is no valid arguement for banning it yet. It has been proven to be gay, but not to be broken. A tactic being gay is a reason to step it up, a tactic being broken is a reason to ban the tactic imo.

Why would we wait untill it destroys a tournament? Because it might never ever do so.


@ Ryuker: You ask for arguements for Wobbling. Well, first off, the first and foremost arguement for the use of Wobbling is because it is in the game. Why do we edgehog? Because it is in the game, play the game, not your version made at home (even though we already play a pretty limited ruleset already, but there's another thread for that =P). There are more tactics that seemed broken at first sight. I know Wobbling is the worst one we have encountered as of yet, but it hasn't been proven to be game-breaking just yet.

Another thing is that Wobbling makes Ice Climbers a more competing character. At this late point in smash, I see more and more players switching to three characters mostly: Sheik, Fox and Falco. Ice Climbers could even bring a lot more of Samus back in the tournament scene, which allows for counterpicks even lower in the tiers, especially in a best of three setting. Wobbling allows for a change, and a change at this point is very welcome in my opinion.

A third point is that Wobbling will strenghten our competition level more than ever. People will learn how to avoid getting grabbed better than ever. Players like Forward actually want Wobbles to Wobble them, because it will make them even more cautious for getting grabbed by the Ice Climbers, which he sees as a good thing.

So yes, I stand by my point, Wobbling is gay, and maybe broken, but maybe not, which is why we shouldn't ban it.

 

[Moggie]

Okay, I've played with Wobbles and I can tell you he is extremely good without Wobbling in the first place. He is at least as good as Caveman is, in my opinion.

Anyways, onto the subject. I do think that Wobbling should be banned, simply because of its ability to completely stall a match. This is exactly the reason that Wall-Bombing with Peach and the IC's freeze glitch are banned; once they are started, the player on the defensive can do NOTHING to stop them. You are at the mercy of the offensive player to stop the combo, and since it is very easy to do, it is extremely unlikely.

Nihonjin's post is EXTREMELY correct: Wobbling should be banned BEFORE another Evo South happens. If everyone remembers, Wobbles beat through Caveman pretty easily because the infinite was allowed (Wobbles 3-stocked him, if I remember correctly), and everyone was disgusted at him for using the attack to win.

And to whoever said the PROS shouldn't use it, you are missing the point. This moves DOES ALLOW less-skilled players to beat better players, and that is what makes it overpowered and nearly game breaking. The moment a nobody starts to beat the best players in the world, this move is going to be banned. but like I told Wobbles, if the scrubs don't ban it, use it ;D

edit :

Why would we wait untill it destroys a tournament? Because it might never ever do so.

Another thing is that Wobbling makes Ice Climbers a more competing character. At this late point in smash, I see more and more players switching to three characters mostly: Sheik, Fox and Falco. Ice Climbers could even bring a lot more of Samus back in the tournament scene, which allows for counterpicks even lower in the tiers, especially in a best of three setting. Wobbling allows for a change, and a change at this point is very welcome in my opinion.

A third point is that Wobbling will strenghten our competition level more than ever. People will learn how to avoid getting grabbed better than ever. Players like Forward actually want Wobbles to Wobble them, because it will make them even more cautious for getting grabbed by the Ice Climbers, which he sees as a good thing.

1. It already destroyed Evo South. Listen to Smashcast 2, they even talked about it there.

2. The fact that more competitive Ice Climbers would bring more characters into the top of the metagame has absolutely no bearance on whether or not the move is gamebreaking; if players who are less skilled are beating better players JUST BECAUSE OF THIS MOVE, then it shouldn't belong in our metagame. This is the reason Akuma is banned from ST tournaments: theres a difference between being HARD and being BROKEN.

3. It's very hard to argue that the best players want to have the move used on them, but it also lends more to the anti-wobbling side if you really think about it. At the very top of the metagame, most matches usually come within a stock of each other in a win or loss. Watch any match of the pros online, and you will see that, no matter how important it is for their character to not get grabbed, because of leads into combos or chaingrabs, they get grabbed anyway. If ChuDat decides to start using Wobbling in tournaments, do you have any doubts that he will win ? ChuDat WILL grab you, no matter who you are, and since he can beat you without this move, just imagine what he can do with an instant-stock move.

The opponent may get better at dodging the move(which is the basis of your argument), but you forget that the Ice Climbers will also get better at getting the grab they need to start the combo. Think about that one, it makes all the difference in the world.

 

[Savior]

I agree with amsah here, leaving it unbanned is like having a loaded gun in a classroom.

This clearly IS overpowered, it should be banned before anybody ever plays a match again, why would you want to leave it in the tournament scene, because if you do, well, im going to train that straight away now because else i'd get ***** by random noob X that played smash for the first time in his life 2 days ago and started surfing forums and read up on it.

Sure, nobody thats not in the powerrankings of lets say, holland, will beat nihonjin with this technique, but if the ENTIRE top 2 - 20 of holland would start playing IC with this technique, it won't be long untill they will kick him out of the tournament before the finals or atleast beat him in those finals.

Lets be reasonable, Nihonjin (Amsah) is by far the best player, recently only Faab managed to get closer, and well, they play togeter like 24/7. How would you feel if you got talents for some sport or game and someone uses a good technique wich would make it 100x easier for him to win, wich he would then. Skill!!!

The point of Shoe that wobbles will strenghten the competition level sux, sure people will learn not to get grabbed, but after all, when you do get grabbed, wich sometimes is out of your controll, you WILL DIE.

On the fact that there are other infinite combo's, well, this is a grap people, shine infinite against a wall isn't like posible each match (stages lol!) and not against alot of characters often either. And usually escapable too btw. And this is just -grab to death combo- not a chaingrab to be honest.

And i think wobbling IS gamebreaking if some guy suddendly ***** all high level players that beated him before using it and wins tournament X with it, we don't want any of that to happen in the dutch scene atleast don't we? And the europe scene?

Wobbling is gay, broken, and in my eyes, b-a-n-n-e-d

 

[juganthestar]

I say theres no point as using 'the infinite' alone cannot win a tournament like Nihonjin said. Think of it as a Marth chaingrab, do you ban that because it allows you to destroy any falco and fox? (there are so many falco's here). If i can remember, peach bomber stalls and nothing else. It also takes that timing, which many of you guys can easily say, you can keep it up easily, well guess what, i play against Jiggs. When your sweating yourself trying to get nana to dodge any form of REST, do you really think you can keep an infinite up? Also Ive played scrub IceClimbers, they BUTTON MASH to keep it up, that means it WILL BREAK. AND MORE they dont start it properly since their scrubs, they blizzard first which makes it you can mash out at like 70, if you can mash at 70 then whats the point?

Anyways...who uses IceClimber as a main in Uk right now?

 

[Savior]

No-one yet, but well, didn't players start playing falco masively after they saw bombsoldier with his -awesome uber hard waveshine combo's- against ken? Think of what will happen if this wobbling becomes like that, random noobs somehow DO learn how to waveshine, no spacing at all, but they CAN do it.

Let say this random noob manages to get a hold on amsah three times, thats 3 KO's, then a suicide from amsah, GAME! wow, what skills must that player have.

 

[Ijuka]

I say theres no point as using 'the infinite' alone cannot win a tournament like Nihonjin said. Think of it as a Marth chaingrab, do you ban that because it allows you to destroy any falco and fox? (there are so many falco's here). If i can remember, peach bomber stalls and nothing else. It also takes that timing, which many of you guys can easily say, you can keep it up easily, well guess what, i play against Jiggs. When your sweating yourself trying to get nana to dodge any form of REST, do you really think you can keep an infinite up? Also Ive played scrub IceClimbers, they BUTTON MASH to keep it up, that means it WILL BREAK. AND MORE they dont start it properly since their scrubs, they blizzard first which makes it you can mash out at like 70, if you can mash at 70 then whats the point?

Anyways...who uses IceClimber as a main in Uk right now?

Lol. Chaingrab with Marth=works on FD against Fox and Falco, with DI-ing, shining, and ability to jump out.
Wobbling with IC=Works on every char almost everywhere, no ability to DI, no jumping out, no nothing.

So scrub ICs do that? What does that have to do with anything?

 

[Marc]

Anyways, onto the subject. I do think that Wobbling should be banned, simply because of its ability to completely stall a match. This is exactly the reason that Wall-Bombing with Peach and the IC's freeze glitch are banned; once they are started, the player on the defensive can do NOTHING to stop them. You are at the mercy of the offensive player to stop the combo, and since it is very easy to do, it is extremely unlikely.

Though not exactly your point, the stalling issue is easily solved by making it obligatory to kill after 200%.

I don't know about Evo South really, what exactly happened that was so extremely broken?

From my understandings, Chu has actually used wobbling on occasion. Though his style isn't based around it (although he does go for grabs all the time), he didn't place higher than he normally would. Living in Europe and all, we don't get all the facts from the US scene, so feel free to provide us with actual up to date facts.

I'm also wondering, what is FC going to do with it?

 

[Marc]

Oh, and for all the people who say 'all n00bs who read about it can pick it up and beat Ken the next day', wobbling has been around for MONTHS already. I also don't see a random n00b grab for example Amsah FOUR times UNDER THE RIGHT CIRCUMSTANCES.

Oh, and I can only think of a few actually successful Ice Climbers players in the US, who actually reached the top with and because of that character.

 

[Nihonjin]

...

You're missing the point.
Like I said before, wobbling itself isn't tournament winning, what it does is allow the player who uses it to **** everyone on his skill lvl and beat people who are FAR above him. You might call my example with Coen random, but its not.
Thats what wobbling does.
Why am I saying that? Well, to get kills in SSBM, you have to outsmart your opponent, for every time you outsmart him you deal about an avarage of 10% - 30% on someone your lvl. And ofcourse, outsmarting someone at a high percentage results into a kill. Seeing that normally people kill their opponents round 130%, you'd have to outsmart your opponent about 4.3 times to get a kill right? (and thats assuming you deal 30% damage every time).
Now I'm going to use the dutch tier list again ^^

4th tier
15)Down A
16)NGCXX
17)C&B
18)Reffie
19) Biscuit

In NGCXX's tier, his outsmart ratio should vary approximately from 1:0.9 to 1:1.1.
Because they outsmart eachother almost 1:1 its impossible to predict who's going to win because the damage given for every time they outsmart varies from 10% - 30% (or with a **** combo 60%).
So the matches end up being close every time.
*Now we add wobbling to NGC.*
What it does is raise the damage given everytime he outsmarts someone from 10% -30% to death.
So now, if two players have a 1:1 outsmart ratio the person who wobbles has a certain win.

*C&B outsmarts NGC and deals 30% damage*
*NGC outsmarts C&B and kills him*
*C&B outsmarts NGC and deals another 30% damage*
*NGC (now at 60%) outsmarts C&B and kills him again*

Even the people outside of his tier are screwed even if the have a 1:3 outsmart ratio:

*Utto outsmarts NGC and deals 30% damage*
*Utto outsmarts NGC and deals 20% damage*
*Utto outsmarts NGC and deals 30% damage*
*NGC at 80% outsmarts Utto and kills him*

Wobbling is simply far too rewarding for something you can perfect within 10 mins in training mode.
It ruins competitive play.
I still don't understand why you guys want someone to prove it first.
If you use plain logic you can predict what will happen if someone decides to actually use it in a tournament.
Heck you don't even have to use logic, look at America, its already happening there.

 

[Marc]

Yes, it is VERY rewarding, but there are more strategies that reward a player with far more than 30%. Of course, those are much more match up dependent, but it's safe to say every grab Ice Climbers get is rewarding, even without wobbling (and imo more rewarding than it should be). The tactic might be powerful enough to make a difference in the same skill level, but the same would go for adopting chain grabbing with multiple characters, for example.

 

[Marc]

I went through the MBR infinite topic for a bit and I came across this post by King. There's also a link to another one of his posts in there, it's definitely a good read.

Christ, this debate is starting to sound like a broken record. Every 100 posts or so, the same points start getting repeated, with the same concerns being brought back up again and again.

I posted some stuff back in the EVO results thread here http://smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=2211375&postcount=147 which covered most of the points I would just end up retyping here, but I'm gonna reclarify a couple things I failed to mention in my post (which, coincidentally, I brought up a while ago in this same thread, which was addressed and accepted/debated over. Gotta love old points coming back up as if they were ignored.)

Kish's example of a Jigglypuff dominating the early stages of this game with flawless and efficient rests every stock draws more parallels to this situation than you realize. It isn't that Rest wasn't inescapable back then, because it was (hell, this is the same game as it was a few years ago, right?). The point was that people wouldn't have been prepared for such a tactic back then, and didn't have the correct solutions worked into their game to deal with it (read: being proficient with DI, Lcancelling and spacing to avoid the setups for rest combos). Hence, it would have been overpowered at it's time, and would probably have caused much outrage and concern over back then.

Fast forward 3 years to our current situation. We've got a tactic that, when performed and executed perfectly, is a reliable finisher to a stock regardless of the percent the infinite began at, or where on the stage the infinite was started. But it's funny. We've all got an "understanding" of the technical skills and spacing options that are needed to overcome this tactic. Yet few seem willing to accept or admit that overcoming this technique will take work. "Zomg, it's less fun when I need to try harder and play more patient to win!" With some adaptation and concentration, you'll stop putting yourself into situations during the match which would make this technique possible.

Another thing, and I think Gimpy tried to argue against this point. No offense, but don't even talk about or compare the infinite of ICs to the chaingrabs of characters like Sheik. I'll say this right now: If FOX or SHEIK was capable of killing someone from anywhere on the stage, regardless of percent, from just one grab, I guarantee you there would be no debate...it would be banned. But the funny thing is, the wobble needs both ICs alive, next to each other, both of which not incapacitated, and have the IC player be ready to set up the grab opportunity whilst being desynched. This isn't the same as sheik or fox claiming as grab, as they can actually run in at any time they please and get a grab, then procede to do w/e they want. For IC to pull off their infinite, a lot of prerequisites must be met.

And that's where the adaptation and skill of a player come in. Recognize what the Ice Climbers need in order to do a successful infinite, and eliminate them. They need nana next to popo? Separate them, while still not needlessly putting yourself into danger. Take your time doing it. Nana needs to be alive? Kill her first. If you happen to separate them, solve the problem for the rest of the stock and gimp Nana off the stage. They need to be on the same height level/platform as you? Stay on a different one. ****, this isn't hard.

Yes, there's no arguement that when the infinite is pulled off, it can be considered extremely broken at that point. Regardless of your percent or character or position, your stock is now effectively over. This is something I don't believe the Smash community was prepared for: having a technique that took the opposition's efforts of escape out of the equation. But just remember, there's a lot you can do about it to completely avoid it. Time to accept this and actually try to improve and adapt to it. Give it some time, and you'll be proud in yourself for how a little bit of effort allowed you to overcome such a dangerous tactic as this.

King Out

 

[Nihonjin]

Thats nice and all...but thats basically the "don't get grabbed" argument.

 

[Moggie]

In reply to Marc : while I do respect your opinion and King's opinion also, I think he completely forgoes the fact that once you are caught in the move, it's unescapable. Although you can do a fair amount of things to not get wobbled in the first place, there is one fundamental difference between rest and wobbling: rest combos are escapable with DI and wobbling is not. The freeze glitch requires a set-up also, but that is banned, so why is Wobbling allowed ? If you allow wobbling, you have to allow the freeze glitch; after all, they both require setups, and they both are inescapable.

As far as Evo south goes, I live in Texas where it took place, and there was ALOT of debate here about the move. What happened was it was Evo's first tournament and didn't have MLG's rulesets(thus wobbling was not banned), and there were time constraints as Smash matches take considerably longer than other fighter's matches.. WobblesThePhoenix used the infinite in the single-elimination tournament to win against Caveman EXTREMELY easily, 3-stocking him most of the time I believe.

What everyone in Texas was basically saying is this: if Caveman (who has beaten Ken, Chu, Isai before) , who knew about the infinite, was 3 stocked so easily, then why is it being allowed ? As I have said, I think that Wobbles and Caveman are nearly even, having played with them both, and both having won no-wobbling tournaments here in Texas while the other was in attendance. We had a local tournament in Houston just a few weeks after Evo, wobbling was not allowed and both Wobbles and Caveman made it to the finals once again, Wobbles winning by less than a stock. In just the example of two tournaments, Evo and the Houston tournament, there is a difference of MORE THAN TWO STOCKS. If you don't think that is overpowered, well....I don't know what is lol.

Also, to wrap things up, you can't really force someone to kill at a certain percent. Let's allow the freeze glitch as long as you have to kill by 200% also!

 

[Thomaz]

Eh, Smash DIing during the Freeze glitch allows you to be unreachable, thus outstalling the match. Don't even think that you can compare the Wobbling with the Freeze glitch.

 

[Nihonjin]

You're right, you can Smash DI yourself to safety with the Freeze glitch, with wobbling you're rendered completely helpless.
And if thats the only real difference between the Freeze glitch and wobbling, why not ban smash DI'ing to an unreachable place instead of banning the entire move?

 

[Marc]

Thomaz is absolutely right on the freeze glitch, and it's also not what we're discussing now. Make a new topic if you want to unban it.

In reply to Marc : while I do respect your opinion and King's opinion also, I think he completely forgoes the fact that once you are caught in the move, it's unescapable. Although you can do a fair amount of things to not get wobbled in the first place, there is one fundamental difference between rest and wobbling: rest combos are escapable with DI and wobbling is not.

Hm, I think we both realise your stock is effectively over one you do get grabbed under the right circumstances. There are more combo's in the game that basically take you from low percentage to (near) death, especially with the Ice Climbers. They take more effort, but that's not what we're discussing. There's also the point that it's only 1 stock out 4 (25% health? Some fighting games have combo's that take at least 50%!).

His post was only one of many, I quoted it because I think it touched upon most major arguments. Scamp also made a nice point about the ramifications of banning something like this when we look at the upcoming Brawl. If we ban a rewarding move like this, there's not much logic involved with banning stuff anymore and we can basically ban whatever move we don't like/think is too overpowered etc. Most arguments of used by people against wobbling actually come down to that btw. My first response also was that it wasn't fun and outrageously broken, because smash just didn't really have something like this before when looking at ease and reward.

KishPrime also pointed out the NTSC Sheik started off as being seen as quite broken because of the chainthrow. After playing the 'don't get grabbed' game for years, there's hardly a successful Sheik player left in the US. I'm not doubting Caveman's skill, but he probably wasn't used to/ready for it when Wobbles 3-stocked him. Wobbles also beat him without it, but with less ease. Well, his best technique was taken away, of course he had to work harder. Husband also reported various players have beaten a wobbling Chu and I think King pointed out some effective strategies to prevent it from destroying you. Of course, you need exerience against it.

In order to prevent stalling, you can enforce a rule that states you have to finish the wobbling off between 200 and 220% (just an example). It's probably easier to enforce than a complete ban of wobbling at a big tournament.

I still think we should AT LEAST wait with banning it in Europe. While we can discuss it a bit more, we'll probably go in circles soon. The only consensus I got from the MBR is that many players, debaters and tournament hosts feel it shouldn't just be completely banned (yet). I'm really wondering what Helios is going to do at RoS4 at this point.

 

[ivootjes(nr18)]

I say theres no point as using 'the infinite' alone cannot win a tournament like Nihonjin said

So we're going to ban a tactic that's 'extremely broken' but cannot win tournaments itself? Then how broken is the tactic we're talking about?

there's hardly a successful Sheik player left in the US

KoreanDJ, best or second best player in US? That's pretty succesful if you ask me.

 

[Marc]

I said 'hardly', and he doesn't even main her. -_-

 

[Moggie]

Eh, Smash DIing during the Freeze glitch allows you to be unreachable, thus outstalling the match. Don't even think that you can compare the Wobbling with the Freeze glitch.

Okay, so according to your logic, being unreachable makes it a non-bannable offense? So, according to you, we should allow Fox to play on Hyrule Temple. After all, he can just shoot a laser and run, and he will be completely unreachable. Thus, it is impossible for anyone to beat him. But that's not the point, is it ?

As a matter of fact, THAT IS THE POINT EXACTLY! The reason that any tactic in our game (not including stages, I can get to that later if you want me to) is banned is not because it is too powerful/broken, but because, once performed, they render the person on defense INCAPABLE OF WINNING.

Regarding the Shiek chaingrabbing, there is a fundamental difference between it and wobbling: if Shiek is chaingrabbing you, there are a couple variables that can end the chaingrabbing. Those variables are the weight of the character, DI, and platforms for teching. These variables are the reason that cg's are not banned. (Now, if there is a character that CANNOT escape Shiek's chaingrabbing once it is initiated, then it SHOULD be banned against that character. I realize this is not the case, but maybe with a bit of discussion we can change that?)

I think that everyone who argues my side says "but you can't get out of it," but in fact they mean "but once you are in it, it can technically be impossible to win."

With wobbling, all of these variables are removed from gameplay. All characters in the game are COMPLETELY UNABLE to escape it, and thus it should be banned. In other words, lets say that we ban it against characters that cannot escape. Since no character can escape it, we say "ban the move," but we mean "ban the move against anyone who cannot escape it."

Now, I realize you can (and probably will say) "Oh, but if you don't get grabbed it doesn't even matter!," but a fact of the game is that you WILL be grabbed, and probably more than once. That is our entire argument!

p.s. - I'd also like to thank everyone, and Marc especially, for a friendly, intellectual debate on this subject rather than just repeating the same old lines

 

[juganthestar]

Well i can wobble but i dont do it.

i was at TNJ2 yesterday! yayyay and i was playing Lord rust and other peaches and i hardly get any grabs on them. Honestly its alot harder to grab someone then you really think.

Stupid peaches -_-

 

[ivootjes(nr18)]

Ah, but now you're totally ignoring that it's also possible to make a rule that enforces you to stop the wobbling after a given percentage (like marc pointed out)

In that way we don't have to ban wobbling. The only thing that we ban is stalling the match.

"but once you are in it, it can technically be impossible to win."

Not with an anti stalling rule, the only thing that makes it impossible to win once you're in it is being on your last stock.

 

[Ijuka]

>_> I don't understand why you're still arguing about it. Just ban it. -.-' The point with wobbling vs chainthrow is that there's DI and the IC needs reflexes and mindgames in order to chainthrow, but can still do 0-death if he can do it perfectly. Wobbling doesn't sllow the other player do anything, DI for example. -_- Which is the thing that makes smash different from all the other games. So blah, I really don't see whyy~

 

[Marc]

As a matter of fact, THAT IS THE POINT EXACTLY! The reason that any tactic in our game (not including stages, I can get to that later if you want me to) is banned is not because it is too powerful/broken, but because, once performed, they render the person on defense INCAPABLE OF WINNING.

Being incapable of winning against something seems pretty broken to me. Exactly what is banned, besides glitches? Items weren't banned because they were broken, just because people could get random explosions in their face. Stages were often banned because people agreed particular strategies on those stages (like wallcamping) were too powerful when someone was in the lead. Some stages were just too random or too heavily in favor of one character (mostly Fox). We never banned characters or techniques, which leads me to...

Regarding the Shiek chaingrabbing, there is a fundamental difference between it and wobbling: if Shiek is chaingrabbing you, there are a couple variables that can end the chaingrabbing. Those variables are the weight of the character, DI, and platforms for teching. These variables are the reason that cg's are not banned. (Now, if there is a character that CANNOT escape Shiek's chaingrabbing once it is initiated, then it SHOULD be banned against that character. I realize this is not the case, but maybe with a bit of discussion we can change that?)

Some characters simply get destroyed by Sheik's chainthrow in the NTSC version. Not the entire cast, not the top tiers, but some characters really don't stand a chance against her (Doug's Sheik chain throwed Chu Dat's Pikachu to hell in a recent tournament). Also, an experienced Sheik player won't screw up often. Of course, there can be stage interference, but the same goes for wobbling. Chainthrowing has never been banned, and it probably never will.

I think that everyone who argues my side says "but you can't get out of it," but in fact they mean "but once you are in it, it can technically be impossible to win."

The worst case scenario is that you get grabbed at around 20% and lose one of your four stocks. Often you'll grabbed at a later percentage or not get grabbed at all. In a close match it can make a difference, there's no denying that. But the same goes for chainthrowing.

With wobbling, all of these variables are removed from gameplay. All characters in the game are COMPLETELY UNABLE to escape it, and thus it should be banned. In other words, lets say that we ban it against characters that cannot escape. Since no character can escape it, we say "ban the move," but we mean "ban the move against anyone who cannot escape it."

So basically, as long as you have a chance of escaping (which can be ridiculously small in some cases, like NTSC Sheik chainthrowing), a technique is okay? I think that with both chainthrowing and wobbling it really depends on the person executing the technique. If he doesn't screw up, you're screwed.

Now, I realize you can (and probably will say) "Oh, but if you don't get grabbed it doesn't even matter!," but a fact of the game is that you WILL be grabbed, and probably more than once. That is our entire argument!

Many people who have experience against Chu Dat have become quite good at not getting grabbed all the time, and have openly stated so. Chances are you will get grabbed some time, but that will also happen against Marth, Sheik etc. Grabs are quite powerful in this game. Also note that Ice Climbers are still considered high tier (although some people consider putting them in top now). They can easily be separated and killed by many of the top and high tier characters. Of course, Pikachu won't enjoy playing them so much, but he doesn't enjoy playing NTSC Sheik either.

p.s. - I'd also like to thank everyone, and Marc especially, for a friendly, intellectual debate on this subject rather than just repeating the same old lines

Cheers.

 

[shoe]

I do not see how being able to DI on chainthrows makes it more legitimate to use than Wobbling. In NTCS when Sheik grabs another Sheik its stock over just as well as Wobbling is, whether or not you can see yourself fly into a slightly other direction when DI’ing in order to just get grabbed again. When getting Wobbled you can just as well have input, you can button mash and hope for your opponent to mess up, just as well as you hope for your opponent to mess up during a chaingrab when you DI.

Regarding the Shiek chaingrabbing, there is a fundamental difference between it and wobbling: if Shiek is chaingrabbing you, there are a couple variables that can end the chaingrabbing. Those variables are the weight of the character, DI, and platforms for teching. These variables are the reason that cg's are not banned. (Now, if there is a character that CANNOT escape Shiek's chaingrabbing once it is initiated, then it SHOULD be banned against that character. I realize this is not the case, but maybe with a bit of discussion we can change that?)

There are also a couple of variables that can end a Wobble, namely messing up the rhythm, and a platform coming up. This is my point exactly, if we ban Wobbling, what is left that makes chaingrabbing an unbanned technique? When Ice Climbers grab you at 25% you will lose your stock if they don't mess up. If Peach grabs Fox at 30% he will lose a stock if the Peach doesn't mess up. If Captain Falcon grabs Marth at 70 % Marth will lose a stock if the Falcon doesn't mess up. Where do we draw the line? What do we ban, what do we not ban? Once we ban wobbling there's a slippery slope towards banning anything we don't like.

This also goes for Amsah's argument, you say that when player A outsmarts player B player B will take approximately 20% of damage. But, getting a grab is already a more rewarding way of outsmarting your opponent than most other ways. When Ness grabs a fastfaller he is guaranteed to get a nair in, when Falcon grabs Peach he is guaranteed to get either a regrab, nair or a knee in. When Peach grabs Fox over 30% she is guaranteed to get a lot of regrabs following in a guaranteed n-air at 90% in. When Fox grabs a fastfaller at 35% he is guaranteed to get a lot of regrabs into a n-air in. When Ice Climbers grab their opponent at over 20% they are guaranteed to get a lot of f-tilts in into a guaranteed smash.

The grand question being, where to draw the line? Your argument of Coen grabbing Utto with Ice Climbers can just as well be applied to any other large guaranteed combo. Ivo outsmarts Down-A and deals 20%, Ivo outsmarts Down-A again and deals 25%, Ivo outsmarts Down-A again and deals 20%, Ivo outsmarts Down-A and deals 25%, Ivo outsmarts Down-A and deals 20%, Down A outsmarts Ivo and D-smashes him to a techchase, while chasing, Down A outsmarts Ivo again and chaingrabs him for 70% in order to edgeguard him into a KO. Well, Ivo seems to be outsmarting Down-A a lot, but, Down-A uses a much more rewarding technique to punish Ivo. Its not that black and white, Peach hardly gets grabs on Fox, just like Ice Climbers hardly get synched grabs. Some techniques are more rewarding than others. You can't just ban techniques that are more rewarding than the average, we might just as well be playing rock-paper-scissors than. Variable rewards for outsmarting your opponents are what make fighting games what they are. A synched grab with the Ice Climbers is a very rewarding thing to get, but it is also very hard to get by, and when predicted, whiffed grabs are very punishable as well.

While being totally against the banning of Wobbling, I can certainly understand that people do want it banned. With this topic I don't just want to keep it unbanned, I want to get everyone to take a look at both sides of the argument. Most of all, I want us to be able to draw an educated conclusion that we can all agree with in regards to the banning of this technique. I am quite open minded towards the banning of Wobbling, and I wanted to state a fact that helps the debaters that do want to ban Wobbling. I made this topic in the European zone, which gives us a reason for banning Wobbling. This is PAL version, there is no such thing as Sheik chainthrowing characters 0-death, and put aside the Ice Climbers chaingrabbing, Peach's chaingrabs on fastfallers are pretty much the largest inescapable chaingrabs in the game. While quite lethal, they still don't guarantee a KO on their own. This is one of the reasons why I figured that we needed a European Wobbling debate of our own, while Wobbling is being devastating already in the US, I wonder how much more devastating it could be in Europe, which doesn't even know a slightly comparable technique.

 

[Nihonjin]

I do not see how being able to DI on chainthrows makes it more legitimate to use than Wobbling. In NTCS when Sheik grabs another Sheik its stock over just as well as Wobbling is

False, Sheik on Sheik chainthrows don't always mean bye bye stock, you can DI towards the middle of the stage, then DI the fair/bair/wair*(whatever air) and you'll survive (with +100% or so, but you can still fight back even with that much percentage).

whether or not you can see yourself fly into a slightly other direction when DI’ing in order to just get grabbed again. When getting Wobbled you can just as well have input, you can button mash and hope for your opponent to mess up, just as well as you hope for your opponent to mess up during a chaingrab when you DI.

Button mashing doesn't help against wobbling.
You can button mash with AR speed or go to the supermarket and buy some cookies, it has the same effect on the game once your opponent starts wobbling you, none at all.
Stop comparing it to regular chaingrabs, its not even close to being the same.

There are also a couple of variables that can end a Wobble, namely messing up the rhythm, and a platform coming up.
This is my point exactly, if we ban Wobbling, what is left that makes chaingrabbing an unbanned technique?

Thats all luck dependant.
The defender is still completely at the mercy of his attacker and stage randomness to not lose his stock.

When Ice Climbers grab you at 25% you will lose your stock if they don't mess up. If Peach grabs Fox at 30% he will lose a stock if the Peach doesn't mess up. If Captain Falcon grabs Marth at 70 % Marth will lose a stock if the Falcon doesn't mess up. Where do we draw the line? What do we ban, what do we not ban? Once we ban wobbling there's a slippery slope towards banning anything we don't like.

Peach:
Chainthrows Fox & Falco from 30% to +100%
The only way the actually die is with bad DI.
If you DI towards the middle of the stage and DI her neutral air (the most common thing she uses to end the chainthrows) you'll survive.
Also, Peach her "devestating *cough*" chainthrows are character dependant.
Ever heard of the term "counter character"?

Captain Falcon:
If Captain Falcon grabs Marth at 70% he's dead?
Are you comparing his Upthrow/Downthrow to knee to wobbling?
Gimme a break..
The only way Falcon can knee you with 70% is if he predicts your DI.
If you DI towards him, downthrow.
If you DI away, upthrow.
Its skill dependant.
Besides, even if he knee's you, you can still DI and survive.

Character, DI and Skill dependant escapable combo's that don't necessarily kill you.
vs
Inescapable instant kill move

Bad example shoe.

When Ness grabs a fastfaller he is guaranteed to get a nair in, when Falcon grabs Peach he is guaranteed to get either a regrab, nair or a knee in. When Peach grabs Fox over 30% she is guaranteed to get a lot of regrabs following in a guaranteed n-air at 90% in. When Fox grabs a fastfaller at 35% he is guaranteed to get a lot of regrabs into a n-air in. When Ice Climbers grab their opponent at over 20% they are guaranteed to get a lot of f-tilts in into a guaranteed smash.

When Ness grabs a Fastfaller he gets a free nair
When Falcon grabs a Peach/Marth he gets a free regrab/knee/nair
When Peach grabs a Space Animal she gets a 100% chaingrab combo
When IC's grab Anyone they get a kill

Another bad example Shoe.

I'll read the rest of your post somewhere later today.
*note*
I'm completely done arguing against wobbling, I'm just pointing out the (IMO) flaws in your post.

 

[Smasher89]

Button mashing doesn't help against wobbling.
You can button mash with AR speed or go to the supermarket and buy some cookies, it has the same effect on the game once your opponent starts wobbling you, none at all.
Stop comparing it to regular chaingrabs, its not even close to being the same.

It Certainly helps escaping the grab before the opponent manage to start the wobbling, if you escape tha grab fast enough=no wobbling, seriously, Dev for example can do that making it almost impossible to start wobbling below certain percentages, and the about counterchar, it´s the same way against climbers, use peach/CF/samus and you´ll be fine...

 

[shoe]

I'm not comparing Wobbling to the other techniques as in being evenly powerful, I'm stating how we are getting onto a slippery slope once we ban Wobbling, because there won't be a clear line on what's banworthy anymore.

 

[Nihonjin]

@Smasher
Again, thats basically the "don't get grabbed" argument.
Also, Peach, CF & Samus can all get wobbled.
They're just harder to get grabbed (its pretty much the don't get grabbed argument put in characters).

@Shoe
Inescapable instant kill moves = should be banned
Broken stall techniques = Ban worthy (peach bomber stalling, Freeze Glitch, Fox on certain stages, rising pound with jiggly, Luigi's ladder etc)
Wobbling is worlds appart from all accepted techniques.
There's no fine line between it and the second strongest technique in the game (what ever that may be), so how this is supposed to be a slippery slope is beyond me.
If there was even one move remotely similar to wobbling that wasn't banned I'd agree with you, but there is no such thing.