WIP: The Robin Discord JMU Match Up Chart (the closest to being the definitive MU chart for Robin)

[Avokha]

Over in the smash character discords, each discord will periodically hold 'Joint Match Up' events in which 2 character discord communities come together to discuss the matchups between their characters and culminating in a crew battle between the 2 characters. I've been a participant in these JMU events for Robin since launch, and have decided to work on a MU chart based entirely on the findings of each of them. As it is derived from the analysis of both character communities pre- and post-crew battle, rather than being based purely on results or personal experience (which has a number of flaws when used in determining things like matchups and tier placements on it's own), I am confident that this MU chart will be the closest to being the most accurate MU chart of them all, and am eager to discover just what the truth behind our matchups is.

Here is what has been determined so far:

Keep in mind, this is going to be a looooong work in progress. I will be updating it every time a new JMU event concludes, and I am planning on including writeups for each character and details on their particular MU. Stay tuned!

 

[Zareidriel]

I am definitely a fan of this idea and would like to volunteer my Robin power for the crew battles if you have need of more However I also wanted to point out that I don't believe the culmination of a couple discussions between two communities (multiple personal experience) plus a single crew battle using players of random skill levels constitutes a strong methodology; between the subjectivity of the first part and the wildly fluctuating variables of the second without a good ten or more trials it's still plenty flawed. Maybe if we could somehow combine the JMU results with results from regionals or majors or something...

But without a better idea myself I'm just gonna stfu and wish you luck 8D

 

[Avokha]

I am definitely a fan of this idea and would like to volunteer my Robin power for the crew battles if you have need of more However I also wanted to point out that I don't believe the culmination of a couple discussions between two communities (multiple personal experience) plus a single crew battle using players of random skill levels constitutes a strong methodology; between the subjectivity of the first part and the wildly fluctuating variables of the second without a good ten or more trials it's still plenty flawed. Maybe if we could somehow combine the JMU results with results from regionals or majors or something...

But without a better idea myself I'm just gonna stfu and wish you luck 8D

I should probably illustrate in a little more detail exactly what goes down in these events lol.

So when a new JMU begins, a new channel dedicated to the event opens on the character discord server hosting the event, with the other community joining said channel to participate in the discussion. Because the event is segregated from other activity on both servers by being it's own channel, only those interested in participating and learning the match up will join the channel and do so. As such, those who enter are open minded and willing to listen to arguments/counterarguments to the topics at hand, not to mention that biases towards characters are, a vast majority of the time, counterbalanced by the presence of the opposing characters mains and their perspectives, which results in both sides striving to get to the bottom of the inner workings of the MU. I also forgot to mention that both communities can freely have friendlies anytime during the event, so everything talked about during the JMU can be proven/disproven through hands-on gameplay.

You are right about it not being a perfect system, though. Like you said, there are varying levels of skill involved in JMUs, and the best players aren't always available to lend themselves towards the crew battle at the end, as some communities will often prioritize including players who haven't participated in a crew battle over simply reusing their best players from the last one. However, something that needs to be remembered is that the crew battle isn't held as a "winner decides the match up" sort of thing. The crew battle is primarily held as a means to showcase the execution of everything learned from the week prior (JMUs are generally week long events) and to provide gameplay of several different players to review together (after all, different players will play the same character in different ways, and thus will try different things). So yes, the variety of skill levels can cause wildly different results than would be expected from rehashing the servers best players each time, but I believe it's made up for in playstyle variety, which I feel weighs more in determining match ups overall than mere player skill. Playing a matchup against a better player will only really tell you that the player is better than you, not necessarily that the character is. It's vitally important that we can make a distinction between player and character merit.

At the end of the day though, whether the method is flawed or not, I'm certain that this MU chart will be a helluva lot better than you're average personal MU chart we all see players posting so much, lol.

 

[Nah]

After the discussion phase and the crew battle phase, how do you guys make the final decision on what the MU is to be labeled as? Is there a vote, or do you have another discussion until some sort of consensus is reached, or something else?

 

[Avokha]

After the discussion phase and the crew battle phase, how do you guys make the final decision on what the MU is to be labeled as? Is there a vote, or do you have another discussion until some sort of consensus is reached, or something else?

There will generally be a post-crew battle discussion where we go over the different interactions that were observed in the crew battle and note what worked and what didn't, and compare that to what was thought prior to the battle. Then someone (often times me lol) will ask for a consensus on the MU from everyone, occasionally necessitating the use of a poll if opinions still remain divided (as was the case during the snake JMU, opinions were divided between it being pretty even to being slight disadvantage for robin, hence my making the 55:45/45:55 spots on the chart "or even" to account for the blurred line between even and slight disadvantaged/slight advantaged MUs).

 

[Zareidriel]

It's a good thing you did that if opinions are going to run so close. I'm glad Snake ended up on that side of the line though, he's one I've fought a lot and I definitely think we have some level of disadvantage. The Marcina results surprised me even more though, they completely rocked us in the last game. I don't have much Marcy experience but I have some, and I would have sworn we'd get disadvantage on that one as well.

Did you say there would be some kind of summary paragraph for each MU as well? If not I think it might be a good idea at least to see where everyone was coming from. More work for you, yay!

 

[Avokha]

It's a good thing you did that if opinions are going to run so close. I'm glad Snake ended up on that side of the line though, he's one I've fought a lot and I definitely think we have some level of disadvantage. The Marcina results surprised me even more though, they completely rocked us in the last game. I don't have much Marcy experience but I have some, and I would have sworn we'd get disadvantage on that one as well.

Did you say there would be some kind of summary paragraph for each MU as well? If not I think it might be a good idea at least to see where everyone was coming from. More work for you, yay!

Yeah, write ups are pending, lol. It's possible one of the other JMU participants might beat me to it for some characters though, in which case I'll probably just post theirs and credit them.

I can see Marcinas placement being surprising, considering the lucina half of them is more or less top tier and all. As I said, detailed write ups are pending, but some things that contributed to placement:

• Pro: Levin sword aerials are able to match the Falchions in terms of range, and in some cases even beats them. This, combined with their greater strength, results in trades being in Robin's favor, especially at higher percents.
• Pro: Robin possesses far deadlier ledgetrapping tools, which can be abused against marcinas that are forced to ledge to continue the advantage state or even to net kills.
• Con: Marcinas have a much better time edgeguarding Robin than vice versa, due to the lack of hitboxes covering Robin when recovering, which forces Robin to work harder and make life-depending reads to make it back onstage.
• Con: Marcinas speed and sheer frame data means that they have an easy time whiff punishing Robin, and Robin's lack of get off me options means that if Robin slips up, it will often mean big damage. Because of this, Robin generally can't afford to make mistakes in the neutral. Every move Robin makes needs to calculated, lest they be overwhelmed.

 

[Zareidriel]

Ah, very good then. Interesting, I can see those matchup notes being theoretically even. However I still have a personal feeling that when the heat gets turned up for both players, Robin will be the one to slowly lose out on sheer general speed alone. Of course the reverse could happen, if Robin in reality does have the frame data for it, to keep it balanced out. We'll just have to hope we get some Robins placing well so we can actually get some real results for once.

 

[Avokha]

The next JMU has finally been announced! The next character to be added to this chart will be /

 

[Deleted member]

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[Avokha]

Samus/Dark Samus JMU complete, original post has been updated.

 

[HenryXLII]

Samus/Dark Samus JMU complete, original post has been updated.

What makes the match up VS Samus even? Perhaps I was just clueless on how to fight, but when I go against really good Samus players they tend to shut me down with morph ball traps into missiles. It feels like Robin is too slow to get out of their traps.

 

[Avokha]

What makes the match up VS Samus even? Perhaps I was just clueless on how to fight, but when I go against really good Samus players they tend to shut me down with morph ball traps into missiles. It feels like Robin is too slow to get out of their traps.

Can't perfectly paraphrase (and again, I'm aiming to get write ups for each individual MU), but it essentially boiled down to both characters being able and aiming to do very similar things to one another. Both Samus and Robin are adept at catching jumps with aerials and both are good at projectile zoning one another should one decide to try to go in on the other. It's important to maintain the lead in this MU, as having the lead will incentive the samus to stop zoning and move in if the robin is able to withstand samus' onslaught of weaponry.

Anyhow, the next JMU has been confirmed to be against the Hero!

EDIT: Hero JMU complete, chart has been updated.
EDIT 2: The next JMU was with Wolf! As this edit is being made post JMU, the chart has been updated.