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So for we have seen some good footage of the new Princess Zelda. She has had major changes and improvements done. Some examples are free-fall free dins fire, Zelda can now move around while charging phantom slash, and many other improvements. She has been analyzed in this video:
Hard to say for now. If lightning kick is really looking like what I think I am VERY excited for that alone.
A super sweet spot with a regular Melee sweet spot with radial mathematics to amplify damage and kb? The art of actually landing kicks will be back, and the best part is I don't have to wait a century for the lag to end anymore.
I'm putting a spoiler thing here because I went on a detailed explanation rant, and It keeps the comment nice and short(ish)
Knight has such huge application it's absurd, not to mention each stage snuffs a different type of approach (kick stuffs small characters or a run-duck/d-tilt, punch stuffs run-jump or run, slash forces jump or dodge into a follow up from Zelda, down slash snuffs jumps and aerials and is shorter, stage 5 is the odd one out going pretty far and covering kinda nothing, good edgegaurd tool though, and stage 6 is a frame trap that you can self combo or apply such astounding pressure on shield and dodge that the implications are huge, though I doubt we get to charge it to 6 often).
Dins not free-falling is nice, but we lose the horizontal float it always gave us, which is a bummer because dins fire float into an opponent's aerial whiff into explosion was a thing you (theoretically) could do. I don't mind it being gone if we get no freefall though, a worthy sacrifice.
Up-air has me intrigued, I'm not sure if it still has that minor hitbox it did in Smash 4 that could combo with some more aerials, and the couple of times I did see it used Zelda had almost no end lag from what it looked like, meaning we could possibly fast fall chain the 1st hitbox into free damage if it still exists...but idk. Of course, it still kills though, so if all else fails it forces an airdodge every time, which is great in this game.
Teleport has a huge advantage compared to everyone else as well, watching Zero's commentary on his matches, he talks about how hard it is to get out of Mario's up-b but every time it's a situation where Zelda gets out for relatively free. Not to mention it's still probably one of the best recovery tools in the game with its absurd range and dangerous hitbox. The elevator is overrated all in all, and I hate seeing people fish for it like 6 times in a match, it works like once or twice, and every time after it kills you...people need to stop with that when they get ahead. But I'm glad she still has the tool.
She kills pretty early as well, netting good kills at around 80 regularly on the sides of the screen.
Other then that, f-tilt looks good, up-tilt still looks like it can combo, d-tilt I'm not sure...it might still combo. The smashes still have some hitbox issues with people commenting about characters still falling out of them, so they have to work on that YET AGAIN, it must be a complicated problem to still not be fixed, but other then that up-smash is said to have pretty good range, and in general the smashes seem hard to perfect shield counter, down smash looks the same, but I'm not sure if it's exactly the same as in smash 4 yet, could have become a frame or so faster, could have gotten slightly more range...hard to tell.
And that final smash. IT. IS. SO. FREAKING. AWESOME.
Words just can't express, the style Zelda has now.
That is just my take on what I have seen, thankfully a lot of people say she really is better. No one is including her in their top 10 though (-_-). So idk how much flies on her cute looks alone...But she seems miles ahead of Smash 4 Zelda.
TLDR: I think this Zelda is truly better then what we have had. I am very happy...I still wish we could cancel Teleport like PM, but hey I'll take all these changes with a smile and a "Thank you finally". The Knight alone sports a huge variety to her defense and offense and the overall nerf to recovery largely ignores Zelda, which also means her edgeguard game is actually a thing now with recovery nerfed across the board, and truly offstage Zelda is the scariest thing EVER when done right.
I was kinda depressed at first, but now after seeing all these changes...I'm eager to play smash ultimate with my favorite character. What an unbearable 6 month wait
I'm confused about this statement. I hope you're seeing something I'm not cause that would be awesome, but I don't know what evidence points to her new kicks working like this
I'm confused about this statement. I hope you're seeing something I'm not cause that would be awesome, but I don't know what evidence points to her new kicks working like this
From some data I pulled Each time Zelda lands a sweet spotted kick the damage is different, I've seen damage from 15% to 26% (and possibly 30% at maximum). It's odd that the sour spot damage is always the same though...
Here are my findings on some of the treehouse footage that i've posted a few times now
I'm going to copy and paste some Lightning kick data I gathered over here from the main thread, better place for it anyway
Leffen played Zelda at 7 hours 35 mins in. (Credit to KlicKlac for the OG Twitch link, converted over to youtube)
Lightning kick sweetspots: 13.3-34.8 (21.5) B-air [7:35:30], 76-102 (26) F-air kills [7:36:24], 0-21.4(21.4) B-air [7:36:43], 54-71 (17) B-air [7:37:34]
killed with F-air at effectively 76% (102% at end of damage calculation) on the right side [7:36:24]
(Credit to KlicKlac for the link)
Lightning kicks:
73-98.2 (15.2) bair [4:42:42], 112-137.2 (25.2) fair kills[4:43:26], 39-61.4 (22.4) fair [4:43:54], 21.7-43.6 (21.9) bair[4:44:23], 58.6-78.7 (20.1) bair[4:44:49]
Faroroe's Wind:
F-Wind sweet spot: 140.8-155.9 (15.1) Kills easily [4:43:35], 158.9-169(10.1) Kills easily [4:45:18]
F-Wind seems to still have that quality that when it hits an object it scales up (you can follow some sparkles to see Zelda traveling, and when it hits the train it shoots up at an angle, speeding up to recover lost time) [4:43:35]
Notes:
Every F-air and B-air sweet spot is on frame 6 every time if youtube's frame by frame is anything to go by.
Auto SH into B-air was 11 frames total. [7:36:42] Video 1
Lightning kick seems to vary from the lowest point (15.2 possibly a minimum of 15?) to the highest point (26, possibly a max of 30?), The average, however, is a solid 21.134. I find it pretty odd, perhaps there is some super sweet spot like in PM and some radius math shenanigans that give Zelda more damage and knockback the closer she is to the super sweet spot? It's the conclusion I come to anyway...
It seems like it is easier to land in the second video, where it seems 8/10 hits with a kick will net a sweet spot, at least it looks like that to me. Idk if Roxy has played Zelda a lot in her free time so I can't be sure.
at 0:46 Lightning kick does 53.5-74.5 (21), 1:36 sweet spot does 70.8-91.8 (21), 2:38 lightning kick does...21 again?
Huh maybe it was a bug in the E3 version...maybe the scaling was messing up...on this version it seems to only do 21 with a sweet spot...
Another video to see, perhaps our version was just messed up (or one of them is a previous build)
7:16 the sun hit at the exact same time so I can't get an exact damage, 8:53 76.5-97.5 (21)
Hmm apparently the Japenese version only does 21 on a sweet spot, but the E3 version did 15-26...Something seems to be wrong somewhere...I guess I'm more inclined to go with they just made the sweet spot bigger and go with the 21 damage only version.
Aww kinda lame, Why would they release 2 different versions for the demo though
Well, least her other changes look fine...and the kick still looks easier to land
Guess I better go paste this stuff in the other forum post to tell everyone. How odd that the 2 versions are that different, maybe there are other inconsistencies...
btw, Sorry it took so long I was busy with college stuff...but an interesting find none the less
I should disclose that I don't play Zelda and that I have obtained my information from lurking the SmashWiki, so do take what I say with a grain of salt, since you'll probably know better than me. However, what I do see is recurring patterns as to why she's always low tier in all three games (and Project M).
She has poor mobility
She has poor approach
She has poor neutral
She is light
She is tall
She is floaty
Her recovery is unreliable and/or predictable
Many moves have high landing lag, bad sourspots or both
There will be variation between games, but I do think that in order to make her at least viable, some of her negatives need to be amended. At least with the newer mechanics, it seems Ultimate will have less lag, so there's that.
I don't think we'll be seeing a Zelda with a normal weight, size and fall. But improving her sweetspots, frame data, recovery and KO potential can make her viable in my opinion.
Hard to say for now. If lightning kick is really looking like what I think I am VERY excited for that alone.
A super sweet spot with a regular Melee sweet spot with radial mathematics to amplify damage and kb? The art of actually landing kicks will be back, and the best part is I don't have to wait a century for the lag to end anymore.
I'm putting a spoiler thing here because I went on a detailed explanation rant, and It keeps the comment nice and short(ish)
Knight has such huge application it's absurd, not to mention each stage snuffs a different type of approach (kick stuffs small characters or a run-duck/d-tilt, punch stuffs run-jump or run, slash forces jump or dodge into a follow up from Zelda, down slash snuffs jumps and aerials and is shorter, stage 5 is the odd one out going pretty far and covering kinda nothing, good edgegaurd tool though, and stage 6 is a frame trap that you can self combo or apply such astounding pressure on shield and dodge that the implications are huge, though I doubt we get to charge it to 6 often).
Dins not free-falling is nice, but we lose the horizontal float it always gave us, which is a bummer because dins fire float into an opponent's aerial whiff into explosion was a thing you (theoretically) could do. I don't mind it being gone if we get no freefall though, a worthy sacrifice.
Up-air has me intrigued, I'm not sure if it still has that minor hitbox it did in Smash 4 that could combo with some more aerials, and the couple of times I did see it used Zelda had almost no end lag from what it looked like, meaning we could possibly fast fall chain the 1st hitbox into free damage if it still exists...but idk. Of course, it still kills though, so if all else fails it forces an airdodge every time, which is great in this game.
Teleport has a huge advantage compared to everyone else as well, watching Zero's commentary on his matches, he talks about how hard it is to get out of Mario's up-b but every time it's a situation where Zelda gets out for relatively free. Not to mention it's still probably one of the best recovery tools in the game with its absurd range and dangerous hitbox. The elevator is overrated all in all, and I hate seeing people fish for it like 6 times in a match, it works like once or twice, and every time after it kills you...people need to stop with that when they get ahead. But I'm glad she still has the tool.
She kills pretty early as well, netting good kills at around 80 regularly on the sides of the screen.
Other then that, f-tilt looks good, up-tilt still looks like it can combo, d-tilt I'm not sure...it might still combo. The smashes still have some hitbox issues with people commenting about characters still falling out of them, so they have to work on that YET AGAIN, it must be a complicated problem to still not be fixed, but other then that up-smash is said to have pretty good range, and in general the smashes seem hard to perfect shield counter, down smash looks the same, but I'm not sure if it's exactly the same as in smash 4 yet, could have become a frame or so faster, could have gotten slightly more range...hard to tell.
And that final smash. IT. IS. SO. FREAKING. AWESOME.
Words just can't express, the style Zelda has now.
That is just my take on what I have seen, thankfully a lot of people say she really is better. No one is including her in their top 10 though (-_-). So idk how much flies on her cute looks alone...But she seems miles ahead of Smash 4 Zelda.
TLDR: I think this Zelda is truly better then what we have had. I am very happy...I still wish we could cancel Teleport like PM, but hey I'll take all these changes with a smile and a "Thank you finally". The Knight alone sports a huge variety to her defense and offense and the overall nerf to recovery largely ignores Zelda, which also means her edgeguard game is actually a thing now with recovery nerfed across the board, and truly offstage Zelda is the scariest thing EVER when done right.
I was kinda depressed at first, but now after seeing all these changes...I'm eager to play smash ultimate with my favorite character. What an unbearable 6 month wait
Ok changed to a blue. I was never sure about the clarity of the red when I set it 3 years ago.
I personally like a dark color scheme on dark, but I hope it's easier to read now, and thanks for saying something.
(here for future reference RED I used Blue I use now) Let me know if I need to change it again I just wanted to use one of my favorite colors is all, and I dislike white text.
Ok changed to a blue. I was never sure about the clarity of the red when I set it 3 years ago.
I personally like a dark color scheme on dark, but I hope it's easier to read now, and thanks for saying something.
(here for future reference RED I used Blue I use now) Let me know if I need to change it again I just wanted to use one of my favorite colors is all, and I dislike white text.
Perhaps try this. It's hex code is #FF6B56. It's more of a salmon colour, but it provides a nice contrast with the black background and is easy to read. Anyway, getting back on track, one thing as well is Zelda's current moveset encourages more defensive play. As I stated early on, if they amend a lot of the negatives about her like her lacklustre air speed, she will have the capability to play offensively because she can approach her opponents.
Ok changed to a blue. I was never sure about the clarity of the red when I set it 3 years ago.
I personally like a dark color scheme on dark, but I hope it's easier to read now, and thanks for saying something.
(here for future reference RED I used Blue I use now) Let me know if I need to change it again I just wanted to use one of my favorite colors is all, and I dislike white text.
Perhaps try this. It's hex code is #FF6B56. It's more of a salmon colour, but it provides a nice contrast with the black background and is easy to read. Anyway, getting back on track, one thing as well is Zelda's current moveset encourages more defensive play. As I stated early on, if they amend a lot of the negatives about her like her lacklustre air speed, she will have the capability to play offensively because she can approach her opponents.
What I don't get is characters like Rosilina are floaty and she is really tall! And she is still high tier. Sure she has Luna, but I feel like sometime characters are just put in place based off the fact they just don't like a certain character...
What I don't get is characters like Rosilina are floaty and she is really tall! And she is still high tier. Sure she has Luna, but I feel like sometime characters are just put in place based off the fact they just don't like a certain character...
That's pretty much why she's so good. Luma improves Rosalina's neutral game incredibly. But Rosalina also has an average dash speed and air speed, so it's not like she can't approach her opponents, as well as a lot of her good KO moves aren't burdened with sweetspots or huge end lag.
I think that it's really too early to call on this. Everything is still at the behest of Sakurai to change all the way up until release. Let's not forget the last minute nerfs of Lil Mac and Bowser after 3DS release either.
All that we can say is that there are some signs of potential with the system changes, Up/Side-B mobility improvements and Down-B mixups, but Zelda's had more problems than just those by a long shot, and until we get our hands on release version frame data there's nothing we can confirm. We just know that there aren't going to be glaringly obvious issues with her specials that shouldn't have made it through 1-3 games depending.
I am just going to outright say it that with the total amount of characters in this game, and with some of the technology we have seen so far I am going to go ahead and say for most people "no". I mean shoot if you think we had a little mac problem in smash 4, the ultimate matchup is probably going to be a straight nightmare. BUT if you stick with the character and learn the ways of the triforce this character CAN be viable if you learn to push her meta, its just with zelda you have to go above and beyond with 300 iq plays and learn the character more so then others to be successful. Within the first 3 months of ultimate there will probably be a lot of zeldas having minimal success but after that her flaws will eventually shine through and it will take those players with dedication and S O U L to take her to the next level. Just like in Smash 4.
To be honest though I have enjoyed this character for all her flaws since brawl, since the various incarnations of P:M and honestly I love playing smash 4 Zelda. I love how she moves, even though her movement speed isn't that great her foxtrot perfect pivot and ability to change direction feels fantastic to me. I think her combo game within her confines can be sometimes pretty explosive, and her ability to put enemies at disadvantage position at early percents is downright lovely.
TL;DR I think some of us have already gotten the Zelda we have always wanted or else some of else wouldn't have played this character. Playing Zelda in smash 4 is like every match being akin to a Dark Souls boss battle. Even with significant buffs to her frame data and dins having free fall removed it dosen't mean the other characters aren't getting insane buffs as well. Its probably gonna be the same uphill battle Zelda mains have always faced for the last 1000000 million years just not as bad, I for one welcome it at the moment but I understand how others wish for a change in viability.
Yeah, but their nerfs are not that strong. The ones that got nerfed the most are looking like they'd be mid tier at worst, whereas Zelda with her buffs is looking like she'll be a mid tier at best.
Yeah, but their nerfs are not that strong. The ones that got nerfed the most are looking like they'd be mid tier at worst, whereas Zelda with her buffs is looking like she'll be a mid tier at best.
Worst case scenario the 1 or 2 top tiers that got nerfed enough (Because others like Bayonetta are still top and very dominant) would end up in mid tier, Zelda at best would be mid tier, but it's kinda tough because the other low and mid tiers (That were considered better than her in smash 4) are getting a lot of buffs as well.
What do you even mean with "sucking"?
If "high-tier" is the treshold, then she sucks indeed.
There's a very, very tine chance she gets something in 6.1.0 but I doubt she gets touched at all.
Heartening to say that she sucks just like plenty of her fellow mid and low tier compatriots suck.
As for 6.1.0, I'm honestly just praying they leave Nayru's Love alone. I don't need any trogolodyte Twitter hoes ruining a tool that's already weak in neutral, if not terrible.
