Will this be the smash to reinvent the series?

[Rocket Raccoon]

Sakurai isn't gonna make Sma5h Brawl again. It was well recieved for the casuals and the Smash players who live in reality (AKA Smash players who know wavedash and other Melee mechanics won't come back). Turning back the clock to Brawl will not look good.

 

[LancerStaff]

Of course I pulled that out of my ***. Do you know how Nintendo works? Your theory about what Sakurai does with Sma5h is as good as mine.

We have a fairly good idea. Tons of devs have talked about working with Nintendo. The number of times we’ve had execs come in and say “sorry, take this and make it the complete opposite of before” is zero.

Lancer couldn't answer the counter argument that the tournament scene actually is important, so he switched up and is now talking about Nintendo & Sakurai's indifference towards the competitive scene.

Like... yeah? That is why we are even having this discussion to begin with: it doesn't make sense to not appeal to this quarter of the market.

Anyway, those are two different talking points, so just ignore the guy.

It’s not important. Look at Street Fighter and MvCI lmao. Making games solely for hardcores is an awful idea. It’s not sustainable, especially if you were trying to target the ever fickle Melee fans.

The topic is about if Smash is reinventing itself. It’s quite obviously not.

Sakurai isn't gonna make Sma5h Brawl again. It was well recieved for the casuals and the Smash players who live in reality (AKA Smash players who know wavedash and other Melee mechanics won't come back). Turning back the clock to Brawl will not look good.

...Who are you talking to?

 

[Rocket Raccoon]

We have a fairly good idea. Tons of devs have talked about working with Nintendo. The number of times we’ve had execs come in and say “sorry, take this and make it the complete opposite of before” is zero.

I can't even tell if you want Sma5h to be more casual or not.

...Who are you talking to?

You

 

[LancerStaff]

I can't even tell if you want Sma5h to be more casual or not.


You

What even gave you the idea that we were talking about what I want? That’s not even a little bit relevant.

I never so much as implied such a thing. Honestly, are you even paying attention?

 

[Rocket Raccoon]

What even gave you the idea that we were talking about what I want? That’s not even a little bit relevant.

I never so much as implied such a thing. Honestly, are you even paying attention?

Why are you so aggressive?

 

[LancerStaff]

Why are you so aggressive?

I’m not.

Now answer the questions.

 

[Rocket Raccoon]

I’m not.

Now answer the questions.

What questions?

 

[LancerStaff]

What questions?

“What made you think we were talking about I want,” and “are you paying attention?”

 

[TheMagicalKuja]

Just some thoughts.
In short-- NEW MOVES on VETERAN CHARACTERS instead of just adding 10 new characters to the Smash 4 roster.
This is one of Nintendo's BIGGEST franchises so they can't afford to be lazy with a new smash game.

Can I say just how much this is a great idea? Veterans need tweaks. Not just radical changes for the sake of it, but refinements and additions that show how they've grown. It will go a long way to freshening up a roster that's swiftly reaching 60 characters and is probably a balancing nightmare already. Yes, just because it's casual doesn't mean balance is thrown out the window. You think the casuals would have any fun if Ganondorf had speed/super armor for all of his punches?

We have a fairly good idea. Tons of devs have talked about working with Nintendo. The number of times we’ve had execs come in and say “sorry, take this and make it the complete opposite of before” is zero.

It’s not important. Look at Street Fighter and MvCI lmao. Making games solely for hardcores is an awful idea. It’s not sustainable, especially if you were trying to target the ever fickle Melee fans.

The topic is about if Smash is reinventing itself. It’s quite obviously not.

This is also correct though. SSB still reigns as king of its niche, no other fighter dreams of approaching it. Hell, some of the competitively balanced ones don't even register compared to even Brawl.

 

[TheSpitefulWolf]

nah, it's just smash 5

prolly still good tho

 

[LunchmanJ]

I'm here to argue, THERE ARE STILL TRUE ALL STARS EVEN BARRING THE INKLING. They are just not that popular, but they can be because the reaction for when a character is revealed is more positive than you otherwise might believe. Look at Ryu and Cloud's reception. Nobody wanted them before they were annnounced.

FIrst up is Toad. He's playable in every spinoff, appears sporadically multiple in each of the Mario games, and even is playable directly alongside Mario, Luigi, and Peach sometimes. Peach is also part of the main 4 playable characters as much as Toad, is playable minorly in all the spinoffs, and has sporadic appearances everywhere, but she's considered an All Star. People obviously consider Toad to be his own character (just look deep inside), but he isn't popular because they think Sakurai's gonna exclude him. The guy can change his mind. Dixie Kong, Bandana Dee, Ridley, Spring Man, Wolf, Ice Climbers, Fire Emblem Switch's hero, Rayman, Crash Bandicoot. All requested must have All Stars. I'm also going to have suggest Tails and Knuckles. They are practically Nintendo characters, just add them. Lastly, King K. Rool. Proof that relevancy can be bull****. Yeah, he hasn't appeared lately, but he's the MAIN villain. People can remember someone if he was that important. You recognized K. Rool. Everyone recognizes K. Rool.

 

[Lanky_Kong_the_Ungracious]

So, new characters are fun. Already theres a lot of different people sharing their character predictions in many different corners of the internet. Clearly the enjoyment people have from experiencing new characters in SSB hasnt subsided...... yet?!?

I cant be the only one who feels this way, but this unique appeal that SSB holds cant go on forever right? Theres only so many characters out there that are interesting to a large number of people and IMO a selectionscreen that exceeds 70 characters just seems ridiculous.

It is clear to me that eventually, SSB will have to reinvent itself. The core gameplay is extremely strong, maybe the focus should shift towards changing and improving that, but the character thing has an expiration date. Has "new character fatigue" already settled in for some of you guys, or are you every bit as enthusiastic about it as you always have been?

I think it’ll be more like smash 4.

 

[Freduardo]

Ever play Jump Superstars/Ultimate Stars?

I did.

Smash has a long way to go before I hit character fatigue.

 

[Tollhouse]

Like others have said, I don't think it's gonna be the smash game to redefine the series. Smash 4 hasn't even been out for 4 years. This game will be more similar to smash 4. And that's a first for any smash game; being similar to a previous entry.

 

[jwillenn]

I wouldn't "reinvent", but broaden the living daylights out of scope.

https://smashboards.com/threads/wishlist-of-stuff-for-smash-bros-for-switch.446712/post-22038808

I feel like I've imagined my dream fighting game for real this time.

 

[Crystanium]

The short development time and the highly similar art style makes me think that the game will be 99% the same as Smash 4.

Maybe, but consider that SSBM was made two years after SSB64.

 

[Cyclone studios]

Here's my Sad Excuse of a prediction of new comers.

Wild: As An Alternative to Regular Link

Shovel Night: New Game Plus 3 Amino

Cappy: but just as a Cameo for the New Donk Stage

Super Bomberman: New Game & Like Shovel knight Almost beat Bayoneta. Plus he's playable already In Flash 2 Beta

Tails: Technically he was in Two of Switchs Launch Games. Plus he's just as Iconic as Sonic himself, almost existing as long too.

Inklings: Duh

Spring-Man,
Ribbon Girl,&
Springtron: All are very,Very Similar & Act Exactly the same so they'll share a Single Slot

 

[Gimj]

My new character hype subsided until I began to sit down and really think about who could be possible. Look at my signature, and tell me it wouldn't be hype to see Rayman, Spyro, Banjo, or Crash in Smash? Those are some heavyhitting 3rd parties that would be even more hype than Cloud in my opinion. Everyone has their personal preference and wishes, mine in particular are Spyro, Waluigi and Sora. That would be absolutely insane to see them in Smash, and trust me I will be just as hype as when Mewtwo was announced(my favorite character and main). Once most of these characters are added though, my hype for newcomers will eventually die down because I don't particularly care about too many other characters. Even this is not necessarily a bad thing, because it turns the focus back to gameplay.

Smash doesn't have to "reinvent" itself in my opinion. That implies too much of an overhaul or change if I'm getting it right. The Smash formula works well, but I think it may need to evolve. What may need to be "reinvented" is the creative vision and direction of Smash. Perhaps there comes a time in the future where eSports is a more profitable target. In this case, I could see Smash being "reinvented" to be a more competitive leaning game. So Sakurai "reinvents" his vision into a more competitive-favoring one, for example. It all depends on how the wind blows, but something tells me Smash will always be successful even if little is changed about core gameplay.

We definitely know that theoretically there is an approaching limit of how many iconic/classic/all-star gaming characters that can be added. This seems to be true, but what we don't know is how fast this limit will be approached. Once we have most of the possible and feasible characters in Smash, the game can be refined with other things. To me, the next logical step is a greater focus on a Story Mode. I can envision Smash 6(if Smash 5 doesn't do something like this), to where we see a literal story mode surpassing the Emissary in length, depth, and cinematography. Imagine a story line or campaign that weaves in every single character on the roster. To put it into perspective, it could be the Infinity War of video games. Even if this is done on Smash 5, I think Smash 6 can push the envelope further or differently. I think there are possible game modes, general content, and features that can be added and expanded on to make the game feel fresh.

 

[LancerStaff]

Maybe, but consider that SSBM was made two years after SSB64.

Two years back then was exponentially more time then two years nowadays, as far as game development goes.

Truth be told I’d very much prefer it if the engine we’ve had since Melee was scrapped and they started fresh... There’s a lot of jank and holdovers that they could scrub out if they did. If they did do that however I’d expect it to be more or less just Smash 4 but rebuilt with this timeframe.

I’m feeling a little more optimistic about how will be different now but at absolutely max it’s going to be what Smash 4 was to Brawl, which I would consider to be 80% the old game.

 

[Crystanium]

Two years back then was exponentially more time then two years nowadays, as far as game development goes

You're going to do more than just assert this, I hope. I've no reason to believe you've ran a team of developers before, let alone ever worked in a gaming company.

Truth be told I’d very much prefer it if the engine we’ve had since Melee was scrapped and they started fresh... There’s a lot of jank and holdovers that they could scrub out if they did. If they did do that however I’d expect it to be more or less just Smash 4 but rebuilt with this timeframe.

I suspect you mean "game engine", which would be unusual, since SSBM's engine isn't remotely the same as that of SSBB. Do you mean "mechanic"?

 

[LancerStaff]

You're going to do more than just assert this, I hope. I've no reason to believe you've ran a team of developers before, let alone ever worked in a gaming company.



I suspect you mean "game engine", which would be unusual, since SSBM's engine isn't remotely the same as that of SSBB. Do you mean "mechanic"?

Everything else has gone up... Development costs, game complexity, graphical fidelity, amount of staff, actual quality... So why wouldn’t development time? Especially with Nintendo who doesn’t believe in throwing a ton of staff on a project to push it out.

Brawl was built with Melee as a base, and Smash 4 with Brawl. Sakurai has mentioned bringing character data from game to game many times...

 

[Crystanium]

Everything else has gone up... Development costs, game complexity, graphical fidelity, amount of staff, actual quality... So why wouldn’t development time? Especially with Nintendo who doesn’t believe in throwing a ton of staff on a project to push it out.

Brawl was built with Melee as a base, and Smash 4 with Brawl. Sakurai has mentioned bringing character data from game to game many times...

You would need to provide things increasing in price, as well as in businesses from Japan from 2001 to 2018. I don't know what "a ton of staff" means, since that's not quantifiable. Besides, there's the possibility that Smash 5 began development three or four years ago.

What do you mean by "base"? Do you mean as a foundation? What is meant by "character data"?

 

[LancerStaff]

You would need to provide things increasing in price, as well as in businesses from Japan from 2001 to 2018. I don't know what "a ton of staff" means, since that's not quantifiable. Besides, there's the possibility that Smash 5 began development three or four years ago.

What do you mean by "base"? Do you mean as a foundation? What is meant by "character data"?

You don’t remember when we had record breaking levels of studios shutting down? Honestly I think you’re being obtuse at this point.

I very severely doubt the game had any real development before Sakurai’s break. Maybe making 4 run well on the Switch for a base but that’s it.

I mean every game after Melee starts as effectively a port of the previous game before being hacked up into the new one. We’re still running on a large amount of Melee code.

Character data is character data. Everything that makes up the characters. Sakurai said that for example bringing a character directly from one game to the next is fairly straightforward, but skipping games doesn’t work because there’s too many changes. The implication being that it’s easier to just start from scratch rather than go two games back.

 

[Crystanium]

You don’t remember when we had record breaking levels of studios shutting down? Honestly I think you’re being obtuse at this point.

I can't remember that which I was completely unaware of. It's not my fault you can't back up what you say. Call me obtuse all you like. It doesn't change the fact that I'm using critical thinking.

I very severely doubt the game had any real development before Sakurai’s break. Maybe making 4 run well on the Switch for a base but that’s it

Your incredulity isn't an argument.

I mean every game after Melee starts as effectively a port of the previous game before being hacked up into the new one. We’re still running on a large amount of Melee code.

A port in gaming refers to a game that was produced for a particular console and was transferred over to another console. I still have no idea what you mean by "Melee code", or "base", or whatever else you wish to refer it as.

Character data is character data.

And all bachelors are unmarried men. A tautology isn't going to explain anything to me.

Everything that makes up the characters. Sakurai said that for example bringing a character directly from one game to the next is fairly straightforward, but skipping games doesn’t work because there’s too many changes. The implication being that it’s easier to just start from scratch rather than go two games back.

And what is meant by "bringing a character directly from one game to the next"? Are you referring to taking a character model like Ganondorf from Twilight Princess to Brawl, or Samus' model from Metroid: Other M to Sm4sh? It makes sense to do that, although there are slight modifications in appearance. You're saying character data is character data, so does that mean I could rip the model of Dark Samus from Metroid Prime 2: Echoes and bring her to the next Smash game?

 

[T-Donor66]

The short development time and the highly similar art style makes me think that the game will be 99% the same as Smash 4.

"Short development time = Port"

Yep, Melee is just a Smash 64 port guys.

 

[LancerStaff]

I can't remember that which I was completely unaware of. It's not my fault you can't back up what you say. Call me obtuse all you like. It doesn't change the fact that I'm using critical thinking.



Your incredulity isn't an argument.



A port in gaming refers to a game that was produced for a particular console and was transferred over to another console. I still have no idea what you mean by "Melee code", or "base", or whatever else you wish to refer it as.



And all bachelors are unmarried men. A tautology isn't going to explain anything to me.



And what is meant by "bringing a character directly from one game to the next"? Are you referring to taking a character model like Ganondorf from Twilight Princess to Brawl, or Samus' model from Metroid: Other M to Sm4sh? It makes sense to do that, although there are slight modifications in appearance. You're saying character data is character data, so does that mean I could rip the model of Dark Samus from Metroid Prime 2: Echoes and bring her to the next Smash game?

https://www.mcvuk.com/.amp/development/study-industry-hit-by-11500-layoffs-since-2008

For example, this article published in 2010.

Sakurai makes games as if they were the last... As in, he doesn’t cut ideas from one game to save them for a sequel. Revisiting ideas that couldn’t be realized sure, but certainly not developing a sequel while the previous game is being worked on. Or are you going to deny this too?

What is there to not understand? Like I said, they port the previous game over for use as a base and build upon it. Smash 4 is mostly running on Melee code... Or do you think that the modding scene for 4 just shot Up overnight?

Smash character data, genius. This is how we have things like Shulk and Bionis’ Leg getting back ported to Brawl, or how IIRC Dorf still has some broken autocancel windows. They all take all the same sort of animations and move data and whatnot. Now things can be interpreted and function differently in different games, for example how Smash 4 uses damage as a knockback multiplier, but in general it works much the same.

"Short development time = Port"

Yep, Melee is just a Smash 64 port guys.

I never said it was a port. I was talking about the gameplay side... I feel like Sakurai has most mechanics dialed in the way he wants them. Balance wise I don’t think it’ll differ a ton either. And obviously the art direction is the same too.

At it’s core, Splatoon 2 for example is still the same game as 1. Splatoon 2 is mostly just more and/or different content. Smash Switch I see going in the same direction. Just a bigger game with more and/or different content. They’re both 99% the same game.

 

[T-Donor66]

https://www.mcvuk.com/.amp/development/study-industry-hit-by-11500-layoffs-since-2008

For example, this article published in 2010.

Sakurai makes games as if they were the last... As in, he doesn’t cut ideas from one game to save them for a sequel. Revisiting ideas that couldn’t be realized sure, but certainly not developing a sequel while the previous game is being worked on. Or are you going to deny this too?

What is there to not understand? Like I said, they port the previous game over for use as a base and build upon it. Smash 4 is mostly running on Melee code... Or do you think that the modding scene for 4 just shot Up overnight?

Smash character data, genius. This is how we have things like Shulk and Bionis’ Leg getting back ported to Brawl, or how IIRC Dorf still has some broken autocancel windows. They all take all the same sort of animations and move data and whatnot. Now things can be interpreted and function differently in different games, for example how Smash 4 uses damage as a knockback multiplier, but in general it works much the same.



I never said it was a port. I was talking about the gameplay side... I feel like Sakurai has most mechanics dialed in the way he wants them. Balance wise I don’t think it’ll differ a ton either. And obviously the art direction is the same too.

At it’s core, Splatoon 2 for example is still the same game as 1. Splatoon 2 is mostly just more and/or different content. Smash Switch I see going in the same direction. Just a bigger game with more and/or different content. They’re both 99% the same game.

Except everything you just said has yet to be confirmed. Nothing has shown that this game will play like Smash 4, that it will be the same balance wise, or even have the same visual style.

Remember when Sakurai made Brawl because he didn’t want Melee on the Wii? Rather than making Brawl Melee with more content, he made a new game from the ground up, with new gameplay, assets, and everything. Not saying Smash 5 will have all of that, but it shows that Sakurai doesn’t like doing the same thing twice. And with a possible 2 and a 1/2 year development cycle for Smash 5 (on par with other Smash games), I don’t see why you would assume this is gonna be Smash 4 with extra stuff, or “99% Smash 4” as you said.

 

[LancerStaff]

Except everything you just said has yet to be confirmed. Nothing has shown that this game will play like Smash 4, that it will be the same balance wise, or even have the same visual style.

Remember when Sakurai made Brawl because he didn’t want Melee on the Wii? Rather than making Brawl Melee with more content, he made a new game from the ground up, with new gameplay, assets, and everything. Not saying Smash 5 will have all of that, but it shows that Sakurai doesn’t like doing the same thing twice. And with a possible 2 and a 1/2 year development cycle for Smash 5 (on par with other Smash games), I don’t see why you would assume this is gonna be Smash 4 with extra stuff, or “99% Smash 4” as you said.

I didn’t say it was all confirmed. Though unless you’re a fan of being obtuse as **** I’d say that the art style is confirmed because of what we saw in the trailer, with Mario namely. If he’s not changing the art style then I don’t think he cares about being different for the sake of it in other ways.

No, I don’t think it’s going to be Smash 4 with more stuff. I think it’s going to be like Splatoon 2 where it’s just enough to call it a sequel.

That’s the thing though. Smash 4, gameplay wise... It’s Brawl with different ledges and landing lag on airdodges. And customs I suppose but that’s a side thing, and not available with randoms. Maybe this time there’ll be something that’ll immediately set it appart from Brawl, but I severely doubt it.

 

[Deleted member]

With Sakurai at the helm I don't think we'll get a drastic shift towards revamping veterans instead of adding more characters. He hates making cuts and loves the characters. Besides, the roster is what sell the game to the widest audience, so it doesn't make much sense from a business perspective to cut down on new additions to update veterans. The only way I could see that happening is if the marketing is really on point, attempting to sell the game as a fresh re-imagining of the series with much more inspired movesets, justifying the smaller roster by saying the revamped big names are basically newcomers. Even then I don't think it would go over well. Only once Sakurai moves on and a new director takes over is when I think we could see a game with a smaller roster, especially since by then the roster could be pushing 90+ characters.

The most I can see happening in Smash Switch is an additional mechanic or move, sort of like how we got another special and Final Smashes in Melee and Brawl respectively. Maybe it'd be an assist or something like in other fighting games, but that's hardly what I'd call reinventing the series.

 

[osby]

With Sakurai at the helm I don't think we'll get a drastic shift towards revamping veterans instead of adding more characters. He hates making cuts and loves the characters. Besides, the roster is what sell the game to the widest audience, so it doesn't make much sense from a business perspective to cut down on new additions to update veterans. The only way I could see that happening is if the marketing is really on point, attempting to sell the game as a fresh re-imagining of the series with much more inspired movesets, justifying the smaller roster by saying the revamped big names are basically newcomers. Even then I don't think it would go over well. Only once Sakurai moves on and a new director takes over is when I think we could see a game with a smaller roster, especially since by then the roster could be pushing 90+ characters.

I agree. It's not like most of the people looking at the characters and say "hey, why this character can't do this thing they can do in their original games?" It's still a new type of game and Sakurai actually really good at adjusting characters' weight and speed to make them feel like that character, regardless of their individual moves. I don't think "we tweaked all veterans, they are like new characters now" would be well received in general, especially considering this means people are going to lose their mains.

It's simply inefficient and only would satisfy a certain group of fans.

 

[Crystanium]

https://www.mcvuk.com/.amp/development/study-industry-hit-by-11500-layoffs-since-2008

For example, this article published in 2010.

That was 10 years ago. That was around the time Super Smash Bros. Brawl was the current game. I don't see how this has anything to do with Sakurai's development team.

Sakurai makes games as if they were the last...

Do you have a source where Sakurai makes this claim?

As in, he doesn’t cut ideas from one game to save them for a sequel.

SmashWiki cites this as a source that Bowser, King Dedede, and Mewtwo were planned to be playable characters in SSB64. Two of those characters showed up in SSBM. Sakurai also planned on replacing Ness with Lucas.

Revisiting ideas that couldn’t be realized sure, but certainly not developing a sequel while the previous game is being worked on. Or are you going to deny this too?

I don't know what there is to deny. I don't find developing a sequel while its predecessor is being worked to be a good plan.

What is there to not understand? Like I said, they port the previous game over for use as a base and build upon it. Smash 4 is mostly running on Melee code... Or do you think that the modding scene for 4 just shot Up overnight?

You need to be clear on what you're saying. When you talk about a game engine (you said "engine" in a previous post), I'm under the impression that you're referring to hardware, not software. When you say "Melee code", this gives me the impression that Sm4sh's game engine is using data (software) that has been transferred from one game engine to the next. I don't know how this would work, so perhaps you could give me a source from Nintendo or its second- or third-party to show that this is what has been happening.

Smash character data, genius. This is how we have things like Shulk and Bionis’ Leg getting back ported to Brawl, or how IIRC Dorf still has some broken autocancel windows. They all take all the same sort of animations and move data and whatnot. Now things can be interpreted and function differently in different games, for example how Smash 4 uses damage as a knockback multiplier, but in general it works much the same.

There's no need to get snippy. I don't have any education in programming.

 

[Granite Countertop]

NEW MOVES on VETERAN CHARACTERS instead of just adding 10 new characters to the Smash 4 roster.

This definitely needs to happen. I love newcomers as much as the next guy, but many of the vets' franchises have evolved (BoTW, Odyssey, etc.). Smash should follow suit and better represent where these characters are now.