Will there ever be hope for playable western-made third-party characters (both Ultimate and/or the future)?

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#41
Commander Shepard is another character I'd be completely alright with... so long as we get Marauder Shields as an Assist Trophy. :p

I was hesitant to mention Lara Croft on account of her possibly being an Eastern-made character. Either way, yeah I'd be completely alright with her, too.

Agent 47... That's a tough one. On one hand, he doesn't exactly strike me as Smash material like the above two. On the other hand, the only thing I find outright objectionable to Hitman's inclusion is something that Cloud is guilty of, and he got into Smash just fine.

Marcus Fenix... I'd rather not say, because I know someone who wants him in Smash and I don't want to worry about accidentally coming off as mean to that person.

Sam Fisher, on the other hand, I'm not going to be nice about: **** Tom Clancy's games and everything they stand for.
 
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staindgrey

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#42
Lara Croft is definitely a Western-made character. Her rights are simply owned by Square Enix. Which, fun fact, so is Mass Effect's in Japan, which is why FFXIII-2 had those weird Mass Effect crossover costumes.

There's also some precedent for Marcus Fenix, since he and Dom were big crossover characters in Lost Planet 2, an Eastern-made game.

To clarify, I'm not saying any of these characters are remote possibilities. Just refuting the idea that Western IPs, or shooters in general, lack identifiable, fan-favorite characters.
 
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#48
Is Waluigi, Toad, the Contra duo and James Bond from the N64 Classic shooter made by westernes? Is that why we get anime characters most westernes doesnt know about in the roster instead since Smash 4?
I'd say James bond is the only one there made by Westerners (Rare in this case), the rest were made in Japan (Contra is Konami). As for why anime style characters tend to get it, it's likely because of popularity or marketing (usually the former I think)
 

Bolshoi

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#49
If you wanna get technical, the current iteration of DK and K. Rool were created by Rare, a western company.
 
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#50
Would you count the Big Daddy from Bioshock?
Maybe, but at the end of the day he's more of a mascot enemy than a big name villain.

Yall are forgetting goddamn NIGHTMARE.

HE'S IN THE GODDAMN LOGO.
Now this guy knows what he's talking about. Jin and Heihachi from Tekken also counted for a time.

If you wanna get technical, the current iteration of DK and K. Rool were created by Rare, a western company.
Yes, but they're still derivative of a Japanese IP. We're specifically talking West-made from the inception.
 
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soviet prince

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#54
Would you count the Big Daddy from Bioshock?
I don't think Big daddy's as necessary bad guys,
there just individuals that dared to oppose Andrew ryan that were attached to the suit and brain washed into protecting little sisters
There story quiet sad actually
 

Quillion

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#55
You know, if we're looking for some fresh faces from the west, there's always Tracer from Overwatch. She'd "fit in" just fine.

Admittedly, I'm still having trouble thinking of iconic "modern" western characters short of her and Master Chief...
 
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volbound1700

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#57
I would say the most likely (and most deserving) Western Characters described in this thread are Rayman, Doomguy, other Bethesda Character (Elder Scrolls or Fallout), and a Blizzard Character (mostly likely from Diablo series). Lara Craft is more known for being on Playstation and would belong in a new Playstation All-Star Battle Royale if they ever brought it back.

Western games focus more on FPS and strategy. Western gaming for example dominates the PC market with classic games like Age of Empires, Warcraft, Starcraft, Diablo, Civilization, the Sims, Sim City, Total War series (now owned by SEGA), Europa Universalis, Command and Conquer, Doom, Master of Orion, Heroes of Might and Magic, etc. All our great series but most, if not all, don't tend to go well with the genres used in Smash.
 
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#58
For reference, these are the three fully western franchises covered in Ultimate: Shovel Knight, Rayman and Shantae. The first was "assisted", but the other two got representation even when it was far from necessary to do so.
 

DBPirate

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#59
I think that it's highly likely that a western third-party character gets in as DLC this time around, however I wouldn't be surprised if it didn't happen. Banjo and/or a Ubisoft character are who I'd watch out for. If they don't make it, then I would be shocked if a western character didn't make it in the next game.
 

Christian_CAO

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#61
ew western characters
kidding.
I'm only interested in seeing "indie" reps from the west honestly.

--disclaimer---the following will be opinionated malarkey, sensitive readers, go home and cry about it elsewhere---

For shooters, besides Master Chief (no personality whatsoever but meh, male samus clone with snake ballistics echo fighter to the tenth degree), Doom guy (again gross character without any qualities of interest past the environment you play as him in, you could make him look like anything and no one would give a damn), Duke Nukem (this is the epitome of western, he might as well have a star spangled banner slapped on his chest, full on dork of a character, the people who want him in have literally just tossed their standards to the wind and just want ANYONE at this point), who else is "iconic"?

Lara Croft (boobs the character, samus called she wants her check sent by mail), Sam Fisher (could we get anymore SOLID reps out here? Sure you could be a bit sneaky like a SNAKE in the grass, but honestly splinter cell is a meh franchise), Marcus Fenix (see doom Guy for a reference to describe my feelings for the Gears of War franchise...but that, like everything else is just an opinion)

Who's left for shooters?
Alien Hominid?... oh wow...actually... hmm... nah (we can dream)
(shooters besides team fortress can go to hell, but I still wouldn't want them in smash because no thank you)

Leaving shooters where they belong (since the good reps are already in smash. Snake is all we need), let's look at rpg's
IGNORE EVERYTHING BLIZZARD ENTERTAINMENT and BETHESDA SOFTWORKS HAS EVER MADE...

hmmm.... well then. picking back up from alien hominid, castle crashers was fun, but who cares enough to want a crasher in the game?

kidding, we can look at blizzard and bethesda, I guess... the characters have names... yup, they sure do.

Does anybody really care? I mean, do you? I honestly am curious. Now remember, when I say "care" I mean, without a shadow of a doubt do you really and truly wish to abdicate for characters, while engaging and thematically interesting their lore and backstories may be, all have the physical qualities of cardboard cut outs due to the nature of most western rpgs. Will you, nay, CAN you defend your stance on your desire for that "characters" (using the term loosely because i'm a jerk) inclusion? If your answer is yes then you are clearly a dirty liar.

To help in your decision, I give an example:

Dragonborne without his helmet is just some jobber without an identity.
Mario without his hat is still Mario.

Use that for your own personal reflection on what makes a character "Iconic"

Now that's not fair and it's entirely biased of me but It's fine. Agree to disagree. I'll root for whomever you folks wish to be in the game and all but...platforming is the best genre for actual character representation, because platformers have to have decent and unique character design to be visually engaging. The protagonist has to be appealing. That physical appeal and escape from the bland confines of realism is what makes the characters interesting.

Banjo, Crash, Spyro. (Cut Conker from the list because he's a pos)
That's basically it. Is that enough? I think so.

Am I a weeb for not wanting almost any western representation of game characters in smash? Well... huh... I think that has more to do with japan kind of monopolizing the industry early on but if I'm a weeb for liking the "good" characters in videogames over the... to be nice, I'll say the "other" characters... well then I guess that makes me a weeb...

Kiite kurete arigatō
 

Quillion

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#63
Does anybody really care? I mean, do you? I honestly am curious. Now remember, when I say "care" I mean, without a shadow of a doubt do you really and truly wish to abdicate for characters, while engaging and thematically interesting their lore and backstories may be, all have the physical qualities of cardboard cut outs due to the nature of most western rpgs. Will you, nay, CAN you defend your stance on your desire for that "characters" (using the term loosely because i'm a jerk) inclusion? If your answer is yes then you are clearly a dirty liar.
Hey, like I said earlier Smash focuses mostly on what the characters do rather than who they are. As long as they have cool abilities and a (somewhat iconic) appearance, western characters absolutely should be in.

Also, your dismissiveness towards Lara Croft is petty as ****. She is absolutely one of the most iconic westerners in gaming, and having a sexy appearance isn't the whole story here.
 

Christian_CAO

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#65
Hey, like I said earlier Smash focuses mostly on what the characters do rather than who they are. As long as they have cool abilities and a (somewhat iconic) appearance, western characters absolutely should be in.

Also, your dismissiveness towards Lara Croft is petty as ****. She is absolutely one of the most iconic westerners in gaming, and having a sexy appearance isn't the whole story here.
Smash most certainly doesn't focus on what characters "do" rather than who they are. That's nearly on the same level as "Characters are just functions" bs that marvel vs capcoms rep spewed out his mouth. If that was the case, Captain Falcon wouldn't be who he is represented to be as he is now. Ganondorf would use ****ing magic and Sonic would at least attempt to do something other than spindash in four different ways, Who a character is is indeed tied to what they can do (or at least it should be, dammit ganondorf) since it's what makes them unique so it's not even on the table. Anyone with legs and arms can punch and kick, things with wings should be able to fly, common sense should apply where it is needed. That stuff comes after/during selection with research and development. Every single character out there has unique and interesting aspects and abilities to them (except fire emblem lord protagonists apparently/shade tons of shade).

It's not a matter of what they do. (every character under the sun "Does things")
It's a matter of what they SHOULD do within the limits of smash brothers. That's up to the HAL Team under sakurai to flesh out a characters traits, physical attributes and abilities to create the most "iconic" representation of that character in smash brothers.

Though you did say "mostly", so it doesn't really mean much on my end to mention any of that.
Even considering all that, Piranha Plant tosses everything under the bus and makes your case far more convincing.
It isn't about who the character is anymore. Back in the beginning it most definitely was but that was the pull. That was the reason people picked it up.
Everybody's favorite nintendo characters beating the snot out of each other and sending one another careening to their explosive deaths in epic battles? Sign me the hell up. Now that smash is a house hold name, they can deviate all they want and nobody can question them because it's smash, Sakurai and team can turn doodoo into diamonds.

Anyway, I've already set my mind on not caring who gets in the game next and I'll root for whomever everyone else wants in because it matters to them and more characters are always a good thing no matter who gets in next. However, I shared my shallow bias on western representation because I didn't know I never wanted anything less than a visual of an FPS character in smash bros. Like... ew.

No really. Other than Team Fortress and Laura Croft, most of them are just gross representations of violence that'd make any nintendo villain look like a puppy, and that's just the protagonists. Lara Croft is easily the most visually appealing (two good reasons why~) fps rep (fps is used lightly here because adventure feels more or less the genre of her games with the platforming and puzzle aspects presented in her games). Angelina Jolie doesn't get rights for her likeness right? I mean, we already have zerosuit samus...that's practically just laura croft in space. She would be a great character in smash. Do I want her in? No. No I don't. But this isn't about what I want, now is it?

And my dismissive comments towards Lara Croft was indeed petty as ****. thank you for noticing. I did my best.
 

Davidk92

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#66
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Really?

So a Japanese game made by a Japanese company based on Japanese series goes out of their way to include characters that they know are popular in the west, including entirely Western-developed characters like Diddy and K. Rool... and it's still not enough?

I don't see American-developed games shoe-horning in Japan-only characters, do you? But apparently America still expects special treatment.

Jesus ****ing Christ. I thought only GameFAQs did this ****.
 

ps_

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#67
Really?

So a Japanese game made by a Japanese company based on Japanese series goes out of their way to include characters that they know are popular in the west, including entirely Western-developed characters like Diddy and K. Rool... and it's still not enough?

I don't see American-developed games shoe-horning in Japan-only characters, do you? But apparently America still expects special treatment.

Jesus ****ing Christ. I thought only GameFAQs did this ****.
Diddy and K. Rool aren't exclusively popular in the west, Japan frequently requested them as well. The biggest examples of direct pandering are Ridley, who Sakurai name-dropped very specifically as "a character western fans like", and Little Mac, whose games only sold well in the Americas. Besides that, the closest you get to "picks for the west" are Dark Samus (again: only the west seems to like Metroid) and... I don't know. Maybe Snake?

More importantly that's not what this thread is about. There are plenty of iconic western franchises and people want to fantasize about which ones would make it into Smash Bros.
 

Quillion

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#68
Warned for flaming
Really?

So a Japanese game made by a Japanese company based on Japanese series goes out of their way to include characters that they know are popular in the west, including entirely Western-developed characters like Diddy and K. Rool... and it's still not enough?

I don't see American-developed games shoe-horning in Japan-only characters, do you? But apparently America still expects special treatment.

Jesus ****ing Christ. I thought only GameFAQs did this ****.
Will you just chill? You're being just as big a self-righteous prick as the people on GameFAQs you hate so much.

Anyway, I'm NOT expecting special treatment for America. And I'm not sure you can comprehend this with how much of an intellectual defective you seem to be, but the west is not just America.

I'm not sure if you're aware (oh what the hell, you're clearly ignorant about these matters), but Geralt of Rivia, a POLISH book-originating character, has made it into both Soulcalibur 6 and Monster Hunter World. So there clearly is precedent for western characters making it into Japanese games here.

If you're just going to be a POS, then you can get out.
 

RileyXY1

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#69
Will you just chill? You're being just as big a self-righteous prick as the people on GameFAQs you hate so much.

Anyway, I'm NOT expecting special treatment for America. And I'm not sure you can comprehend this with how much of an intellectual defective you seem to be, but the west is not just America.

I'm not sure if you're aware (oh what the hell, you're clearly ignorant about these matters), but Geralt of Rivia, a POLISH book-originating character, has made it into both Soulcalibur 6 and Monster Hunter World. So there clearly is precedent for western characters making it into Japanese games here.

If you're just going to be a POS, then you can get out.
Well, of Soul Calibur's guest characters, only Link, Heihachi, and 2B were actually created in Japan. Here's where the rest of the guest characters came from:

Spawn (USA)
Starkiller (USA)
Darth Vader (USA)
Yoda (USA)
Kratos (USA)
Ezio (France)
Geralt (Poland)

There's also the fact that Negan from the Walking Dead (an American comic book and TV series) is playable in Tekken 7.
 
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#70
Honestly, what's the deal with all the sudden outpouring for Master Chief? I don't mean to attack anybody who wants the character in but I just can't see the reasoning behind it. Yeah, he's cool and all, and I like Halo as much as the next guy, but he has no connection to Nintendo. I don't mean "only a little" connection like Cloud and Joker, I mean absolutely no connection. Neither Halo nor Master Chief have made any sort of remote appearance on Nintendo platforms. Yeah, I know Nintendo is on good terms with Microsoft, but you think they'd go for a character with shared history first, like Banjo or Steve.

Furthermore, Doomguy does everything that Master Chief does but better. They're both mean green gunslinging space marines, but DOOM basically paved the way for the FPS genre as well as massively influencing pop culture, while Halo was just a popular entry in the genre. Sakurai has even acknowledged the contributions of John Carmack to the FPS genre, and Carmack was heavily involved in the development of the original DOOM. DOOM also has fairly noteworthy history with Nintendo, with ports on the SNES, GBA, and Switch, a totally original entry on the N64, and the announcement of DOOM: Eternal being available for the Switch on release.

Yeah, I know that Smash is mainly about gaming icons, but I'm gonna be honest... Doomguy/marine/slayer is the bigger icon, and heck, I would argue the entire DOOM brand barely outshines Halo.
 
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#71
What’s really crazy is how I don’t really want western characters in the game, but Joker’s reveal has set up an ungodly standard for the character choices that it almost seems possible for Steve and Tracer to show up.
If anything, Joker hurts western third-parties even more. Joker is a pretty low key character who is still a Japanese character. This doesn't help western characters at all but only shows more than Japanese characters are far, far more likely.

Not that I'm going to suggest third-party western characters are impossible, but certainly not as likely as even more Japanese characters.


Honestly, what's the deal with all the sudden outpouring for Master Chief? I don't mean to attack anybody who wants the character in but I just can't see the reasoning behind it. Yeah, he's cool and all, and I like Halo as much as the next guy, but he has no connection to Nintendo. I don't mean "only a little" connection like Cloud and Joker, I mean absolutely no connection. Neither Halo nor Master Chief have made any sort of remote appearance on Nintendo platforms. Yeah, I know Nintendo is on good terms with Microsoft, but you think they'd go for a character with shared history first, like Banjo or Steve.

Furthermore, Doomguy does everything that Master Chief does but better. They're both mean green gunslinging space marines, but DOOM basically paved the way for the FPS genre as well as massively influencing pop culture, while Halo was just a popular entry in the genre. Sakurai has even acknowledged the contributions of John Carmack to the FPS genre, and Carmack was heavily involved in the development of the original DOOM. DOOM also has fairly noteworthy history with Nintendo, with ports on the SNES, GBA, and Switch, a totally original entry on the N64, and the announcement of DOOM: Eternal being available for the Switch on release.

Yeah, I know that Smash is mainly about gaming icons, but I'm gonna be honest... Doomguy/marine/slayer is the bigger icon, and heck, I would argue the entire DOOM brand barely outshines Halo.
I think Master Chief mostly gets brought up as a counter to all the people still asking for Banjo. When people say they want Banjo, others jump in and say "OMG WHY BANJO MASTER CHIEF AND STEVE ARE FROM FAR BIGGER FRANCHISES!!!"

Master Chief does get some love from FPS fans, of course, and that argument does come down between Doomguy and Master Chief. So that aspect does happen... but again, pretty sure the primary reason Master Chief or Steve even get brought up is as a counter to all the fans asking for Banjo.
 

ps_

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#72
Honestly, what's the deal with all the sudden outpouring for Master Chief? I don't mean to attack anybody who wants the character in but I just can't see the reasoning behind it. Yeah, he's cool and all, and I like Halo as much as the next guy, but he has no connection to Nintendo. I don't mean "only a little" connection like Cloud and Joker, I mean absolutely no connection. Neither Halo nor Master Chief have made any sort of remote appearance on Nintendo platforms. Yeah, I know Nintendo is on good terms with Microsoft, but you think they'd go for a character with shared history first, like Banjo or Steve.

Furthermore, Doomguy does everything that Master Chief does but better. They're both mean green gunslinging space marines, but DOOM basically paved the way for the FPS genre as well as massively influencing pop culture, while Halo was just a popular entry in the genre. Sakurai has even acknowledged the contributions of John Carmack to the FPS genre, and Carmack was heavily involved in the development of the original DOOM. DOOM also has fairly noteworthy history with Nintendo, with ports on the SNES, GBA, and Switch, a totally original entry on the N64, and the announcement of DOOM: Eternal being available for the Switch on release.

Yeah, I know that Smash is mainly about gaming icons, but I'm gonna be honest... Doomguy/marine/slayer is the bigger icon, and heck, I would argue the entire DOOM brand barely outshines Halo.
Agreeing with all of this. In fact, I'd argue DOOM nowadays is more popular than Halo. The Bethesda rendition was pretty well-received.
 
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#73
I think its possible to get 1 or 2, theres still 4 dlc fighters to announce and lots of possibilities especially if there is a lot of 3rd party stuff coming
 
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#74
Agent 47... That's a tough one. On one hand, he doesn't exactly strike me as Smash material like the above two. On the other hand, the only thing I find outright objectionable to Hitman's inclusion is something that Cloud is guilty of, and he got into Smash just fine.
47's chances are even lower now that IO broke off from SE, so he'll still remain anywhere but on a Nintendo console. So I understand the concern in his case.

If anything, Joker hurts western third-parties even more. Joker is a pretty low key character who is still a Japanese character. This doesn't help western characters at all but only shows more than Japanese characters are far, far more likely.

Not that I'm going to suggest third-party western characters are impossible, but certainly not as likely as even more Japanese characters.
The thing with Joker is that it's indirectly pointing out how options for globally-known JP franchises are steadily running low, even if just sticking to the companies Nintendo currently collaborates with. It's like, "okay, we got the biggest names, so now what"? At that point most of the rest of their stuff aren't exactly huge names. and they might resort to bringing in folks from dead series.

So either they eventually scrape the bottom of the barrel, or they take the next logical step and venture into foreign waters.

Well, of Soul Calibur's guest characters, only Link, Heihachi, and 2B were actually created in Japan. Here's where the rest of the guest characters came from:

Spawn (USA)
Starkiller (USA)
Darth Vader (USA)
Yoda (USA)
Kratos (USA)
Ezio (France)
Geralt (Poland)

There's also the fact that Negan from the Walking Dead (an American comic book and TV series) is playable in Tekken 7.
Bamco's household fighters generally are far less fussy about who gets in, and only a handful of these Western characters are even from game franchises.
 
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#75
I think Doom Slayer has a good chance of DLC. From its impact on games to Sakurai's acknowledgement of John Carmack as the FPS Father to two games for the Switch (Not to mention there's a prominent DOOM fan artist in Japan), I'd say he has a shot.

Diablo could be the first character in history to have a franchise only represented by a villain, and Diablo contributed a lot to the dungeon crawler genre. The Switch port kind of raises his chances, too.

I'm surprised nobody is talking about the chances of a Mortal Kombat character in Smash, considering that most of the games in the franchise have appeared on Nintendo consoles (Except for MK9 and MKX), and with MK11 coming to Switch, I'd say the chances are high there, too. I support Sub-Zero for Smash Bros because not only is he more tame than fellow mascot Scorpion in terms of violence, but he's a character that mainly uses ice, which only 3 characters in Smash use (Ice Climbers, PK Freeze for Lucas and Judge 8 for G&W).
 
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#76
I think Doom Slayer has a good chance of DLC. From its impact on games to Sakurai's acknowledgement of John Carmack as the FPS Father to two games for the Switch (Not to mention there's a prominent DOOM fan artist in Japan), I'd say he has a shot.

Diablo could be the first character in history to have a franchise only represented by a villain, and Diablo contributed a lot to the dungeon crawler genre. The Switch port kind of raises his chances, too.

I'm surprised nobody is talking about the chances of a Mortal Kombat character in Smash, considering that most of the games in the franchise have appeared on Nintendo consoles (Except for MK9 and MKX), and with MK11 coming to Switch, I'd say the chances are high there, too. I support Sub-Zero for Smash Bros because not only is he more tame than fellow mascot Scorpion in terms of violence, but he's a character that mainly uses ice, which only 3 characters in Smash use (Ice Climbers, PK Freeze for Lucas and Judge 8 for G&W).
Censorship of super-violent games in Japan is what prevents MK from getting a foothold there, I think. The modern iterations in particular would be a headache for CERO to deal with.
 

Quillion

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#77
Censorship of super-violent games in Japan is what prevents MK from getting a foothold there, I think. The modern iterations in particular would be a headache for CERO to deal with.
Wait, that's a thing in Japan now? Isn't that the same country that markets Fist of the North Star and JoJo's Bizarre Adventure to preteen boys?
 
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#78
Wait, that's a thing in Japan now? Isn't that the same country that markets Fist of the North Star and JoJo's Bizarre Adventure to preteen boys?
Yes. Incidentally, the latest FOTNS game has shadowed-out gore (while the US release has that be optional). Even as far back as No More Heroes, you can see blood being censored in the Japanese release.

These days, ultraviolence is okay to be displayed in manga and some TV channels and home video, otherwise it's a no-no.
 

Quillion

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#79
Yes. Incidentally, the latest FOTNS game has shadowed-out gore (while the US release has that be optional). Even as far back as No More Heroes, you can see blood being censored in the Japanese release.

These days, ultraviolence is okay to be displayed in manga and some TV channels and home video, otherwise it's a no-no.
Well that's strange. Either way, M-rated characters are by no means barred from Smash, so I don't think that's going to be too much of a snag.
 
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#80
Censorship of super-violent games in Japan is what prevents MK from getting a foothold there, I think. The modern iterations in particular would be a headache for CERO to deal with.
I heard rumors of a Mortal Kombat Trilogy remaster, and considering MKT blood is really tame in this day and age of games, I’d say that that would be okay in Japan if they keep the blood to ‘96-levels and add that shadowed-out gore from the FOTNS game you mentioned. That is, if it’s real.
 
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