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Will Nintendo help support the FGC for Smash 4?

VA3TO

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jun 25, 2013
Messages
75
One of my favourite YouTubers Maximillion Dood just uploaded this video and I must say it puts a lot of things into perspective for loyal followers of the Smash series.

Here is the video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gg0qY8hphCs

I think Max nails it right on the head; this game has a very, very loyal fan base which deserves recognition from Nintendo. Yes we want Smash to be a casual game with friends but we ALSO want it to be as competent, complex and deep as Melee.

Who knows? Sakurai may ACTUALLY take notice this time.
 

Infinitroll

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jul 7, 2013
Messages
20
I think sakurai has listened. The new game appears to be a balance between melee and brawl. A good middle ground/comprimise.
 

Ulevo

Smash Master
Joined
Dec 5, 2007
Messages
4,496
Location
Unlimited Blade Works
I think sakurai has listened. The new game appears to be a balance between melee and brawl. A good middle ground/comprimise.

It isn't just the design philosophy that's important, mind you. This game needs to be properly playtested and at least moderately balanced. Melee wasn't balanced amongst its entire tier list, but the top and high tiers were all really close together, so it functioned well in that respect. If Smash Wii U doesn't have this and we have another highly imbalanced roster from top to bottom, I feel a lot of the loyal fans from the competitive scene will either just revert back to Melee or drop Smash.

The game also needs to have a lot less political friction. If Nintendo doesn't want to support or sponsor their game and its players in the tournament scene, then that's fine. We've managed on our own for a while now. But having lawyers from Nintendo trying to shut down streams and events is unacceptable, and it will make things difficult if it continues.
 

Hong

The Strongest
Joined
Jul 6, 2004
Messages
23,550
Ha ha. I told Sakurai-san to tune in to evo, though I am not sure if he watched all of it. The Smash Bros tournament actually had waaaaaaaaay more viewers in Japan than NA, so at least some people on the dev team have seen it.
 

Ulevo

Smash Master
Joined
Dec 5, 2007
Messages
4,496
Location
Unlimited Blade Works
Ha ha. I told Sakurai-san to tune in to evo, though I am not sure if he watched all of it. The Smash Bros tournament actually had waaaaaaaaay more viewers in Japan than NA, so at least some people on the dev team have seen it.

How many viewers did it have over in Japan?
 

Hong

The Strongest
Joined
Jul 6, 2004
Messages
23,550
How many viewers did it have over in Japan?
Speaking for Smash Bros and not the entire event:
I wasn't on Niconico for the finals, but when Twitch.TV had 26k viewers (with most IPs coming from the US), Niconico had 105k. While Niconico now has foreign support, I didn't see any English comments at all and almost everyone was watching from Japan. For what it's worth, there was also coverage on Naver (kind of like Korean YouTube), so they weren't padding the Niconico numbers, either. Unfortunately I didn't record numbers beyond the first day, but generally it was roughly twice as many viewers overall. Considering we broke 100k people on the Melee stream on Twitch, there must have been lots of people watching elsewhere!

I think what impresses me most is that for the most part, it was airing in Japan at ridiculous hours (starting around 5AM), and we still got the amount of viewers we did. I know the Japanese stream team at Evo had a good time, so I hope for an even better event next year. ( 〞▽ 〝)
 

nat pagle

Smash Ace
Joined
Jul 18, 2013
Messages
507
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Dustwallow Marsh
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This game really needs a beta or some feedback from good players.

That's really tough to carry out though. Even if we put all our most technical guys like M2K and co., they still wouldn't be able to find the minute stuff than people would exploit later on after the metagame evolves. Yeah you can get an overall feel, but eventually the tier lists will change up and unforeseen dominance will come to light for some characters.

I think it's a good way to prevent another Meta Knight from emerging, but overall balance is just going to be pretty much like it was in Melee. A few characters will be at the top with a slight gap between them and the B tier, and then from then on down it gets worse and worse. But, I just don't see Nintendo giving the top competitive guys access to the game early to give their thoughts on it. I doubt they are interested enough in the competitive aspect as to invite these guys to come along so late in the development stages and risk development issues. They wouldn't want to go back and fix everything instead of just have it right the first time.

And I don't see a beta happening at all. I don't think Nintendo ever has released a beta for any game they've had. It's not like Halo where they fine tune everything in the Beta and repeatedly update in order to keep the online community stable. They've never had that narrative, they've always just released the game and went with it. Hence, tiers exist, metagame is built off of a static and unchanging game, and they have enough trust in their staff to build a good game. And I frankly think it'll be just fine. They don't need to fine tune everything to be in absolute balance like COD or Halo.
 

nessokman

Smash Lord
Joined
Sep 4, 2012
Messages
1,641
Sakurai said he is interested in patches. This could fix game breaking exploits
 

Infinitroll

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jul 7, 2013
Messages
20
I don't think balance will be as big of an issue. Sakurai has expressed interest in patching the game. Best case scenario is that sakurai follows what capcom does with street fighter 4. Years later it is still receiving balance patches and dlc. Maybe we dont need dlc, but the balance patches would be great years down the line with the evolving metagame.
 

Hong

The Strongest
Joined
Jul 6, 2004
Messages
23,550
More important than patches is the fact Masahiro Sakurai is not the one balancing the game this time around. He knows how to make fun, unique and interesting games, but everything he has said leaves me to believe he is terrible at balancing a game.

Case-in-point: He uses the results garnered from online matches to suggest the game is balanced, completely disregarding how much latency favours some characters more than others. Not to mention most online matches occur under a very specific set of rules that does not reflect on how most people play the game.

I can understand if he wants to have a game that is balanced at a specific skill level (as opposed to balancing the game at the highest skill level), but even for his intended target he was really off his mark. Of course nothing will have perfect balance, but some of the discrepancies we have seen thus far are a bit extreme and I am surprised they made it into release. Don't get the wrong idea... I don't mean any disrespect and I love the games he makes, but I think allowing his staff to dictate character balance this time around will make for a much better game. Just having a wider range of perspective, opinion and experience will work wonders. There will still be some high highs and low lows, but I can't see it being as bad as we have experienced thus far.

While Smash Bros is not a fighter in the purest sense, many of the same principles apply and I can trust Namco with this.
 

Infinitroll

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jul 7, 2013
Messages
20
More important than patches is the fact Masahiro Sakurai is not the one balancing the game this time around. He knows how to make fun, unique and interesting games, but everything he has said leaves me to believe he is terrible at balancing a game.

Case-in-point: He uses the results garnered from online matches to suggest the game is balanced, completely disregarding how much latency favours some characters more than others. Not to mention most online matches occur under a very specific set of rules that does not reflect on how most people play the game.

I can understand if he wants to have a game that is balanced at a specific skill level (as opposed to balancing the game at the highest skill level), but even for his intended target he was really off his mark. Of course nothing will have perfect balance, but some of the discrepancies we have seen thus far are a bit extreme and I am surprised they made it into release. Don't get the wrong idea... I don't mean any disrespect and I love the games he makes, but I think allowing his staff to dictate character balance this time around will make for a much better game. Just having a wider range of perspective, opinion and experience will work wonders. There will still be some high highs and low lows, but I can't see it being as bad as we have experienced thus far.

While Smash Bros is not a fighter in the purest sense, many of the same principles apply and I can trust Namco with this.
Some stuff sakurai has done is questionable, but like you said he seems more focused on balancing the game. That along with patches will help close the gap between teirs. I think there will still be tiers, but not like brawl where you had to play top tier or lose.
 

Amazing Ampharos

Balanced Brawl Designer
Writing Team
Joined
Jan 31, 2008
Messages
4,582
Location
Kansas City, MO
Honestly if you just ignore Meta Knight and then play on a diverse array of stages (so you aren't always playing on Olimar and ICs counterpicks which is dumb and hurts the game's balance), Brawl's balance is fairly decent. Again just pretending that MK isn't in the game, I'd be confident to say that Diddy Kong, Wario, Toon Link, Zero Suit Samus, Ice Climbers, Pit, R.O.B., Kirby, King Dedede, Olimar, Falco, Pikachu, Lucario, Marth, Mr. Game & Watch, and Snake are all tournament viable characters. Honestly even with MK they're all viable; it's just that there's a strong argument that using non-MK characters is irrational in an environment that includes MK since he's the easiest to play and wins every match-up to at least some extent and some match-ups to a great extent. Add in patch support to only fix infinites and near infinites while not changing the balance otherwise and you could add Donkey Kong, Fox, and Ness to that list; all three have clearly "high tier" worthy movesets that are just shot down by gimmicks in small numbers of match-ups. Most of the mid-tiers are decent enough to use as well; it's not hard to find people who can be scary with Luigi, Peach, Zelda & Sheik, Wolf, Pokemon Trainer, Ike, or Sonic with some people being advocates that any number of them are better than commonly perceived (apparently the BBR itself is an institution that believes in Wolf!). Even your low tiers aren't THAT dreadful; it's really only Ganon who is a total joke. MK was a terrible mistake who really ruins people's perceptions of the balance, but just look past MK and you see a really diverse game. They know what a big mistake MK was I'm sure, and as long as we avoid that one towering character, I'm extremely confident in the dev team's ability to deliver a well balanced fighter as they did in the last two entries.

In terms of beta testing and such, a few things are being missed. For one, being a super strong player is not what you really need to balance an unfinished game. You need people to explore heavily and are good at system analysis, especially since pre-release testing is going to worry about all the characters. Remember how long the BBR tier lists lumped Ness and Lucas together despite how much wildly better a character Ness is; it's because of a tendency to focus on the top and ignore characters not seen as credible contenders for high tier (sadly Ness really was, but grab release was discovered before the reasons he's an otherwise good character). Also remember that early gameplay seemed convinced that MK was strong but fair and that Snake was broken; we know now that's backwards, and you have to be pretty good at picking these games apart to tell that Snake is going to fall and MK is going to rise in a more mature metagame.

The whole beta test thing has a bigger fundamental problem though. Nintendo just doesn't balance like that. They want the game to be "balanced" with a variety of settings and skill levels. In Brawl Zelda is a good case. In no items singles with good players, Zelda is pretty awful. Start changing some of those statements and Zelda becomes much more of a force; she's one of the best characters in the game in items FFA with bad players (as long as the one using Zelda is just good enough to hit with lightning kicks... which is a pretty low bar) and is generally at least somewhat improved by changing many settings (just going to teams and sticking with no items and good players really helps Zelda a lot). It's possible to make the game work across the board, but it's a far harder task than balancing a traditional fighter that only concerns itself with balance on one level. When you consider that Nintendo has these priorities and not just balancing our singles events in mind, I'd say how well balanced the previous games are speaks very well of them (and seriously, Brawl top tier or lose? That's not the Brawl I know). Have some faith guys.

To address the original topic, it would be nice if Nintendo supported events and such but I wouldn't count on it at all. Nintendo is just a very aloof company. This works to their favor in terms of making good games most of the time (they don't listen to the peanut gallery's endless stupid ideas), but for community stuff you really can't work with them. Luckily we have a lot of systems in place that let us work on our own, and if we work together with the new game, I think we can make things big on our own with at least a pretty good assurance that Nintendo is probably going to leave us alone.
 

El Duderino

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 21, 2011
Messages
570
Both Melee and Brawl (ignoring MK) have a range of tournament viable characters. When you consider Brawl's expanded cast, the ratio is actually pretty similar between the two tittles. The takeaway here is, despite the balancing issues across the entire roster, we've still been able to enjoy each game. Sure, ignoring the high-level competitive players feedback certainly won't help Smash 4's balance, but it's not going to necessarily make or break the game.

I don't expect Smash 4 to achieve much better balance. Obviously not ideal, but we can look past it. What will likely be far more difficult to overcome though are any busted aspects of the game, which if history repeats itself, Smash 4 will have no short supply of. That's where the lack of play testing from top tournament players could really drag the game down.
 

Ulevo

Smash Master
Joined
Dec 5, 2007
Messages
4,496
Location
Unlimited Blade Works
More important than patches is the fact Masahiro Sakurai is not the one balancing the game this time around. He knows how to make fun, unique and interesting games, but everything he has said leaves me to believe he is terrible at balancing a game.

Looking back at Smash's history, as well as specific interviews with the man, I think this is false. I don't think Melee was some glorified accident. Sakurai stated he led a very destructive lifestyle during Melee's development, opting to work tirelessly to get the game just the way he wanted. Between his resentment towards having to do this again, having Miyamoto announce the next Smash Bros. Game without first addressing Sakurai about its development and thus subsequently throwing the responsibility on his lap, catering towards a casual demographic with the Wii being the system of choice, and clearly not having enough time to playtest and finish the game properly, I would say that a lot of consequences we saw with Brawl weren't from a mere absence of talent, just a lack of time and care.

I don't think 64 and Melee were as great as they were and he just dropped the ball incredibly hard on Brawl by sheer dumb luck.
 

Forde

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jul 16, 2013
Messages
60
Dev support is something that is almost mandantory nowadays for competitive play. As a competitive Halo/CoD player, I can say that CoD's competitive scene is doing very well right now because of the amount of developer support it is getting. It had a 1 million dollar tournament a few months ago, for those who are unaware. The viewership it got was excellent. Unfortunately, Halo 4 has not had that much developer support, among other things, and is suffering.

If SSBM can pull 134k viewers at Evo without any major dev support, imagine what it could bring to nintendo if they supported it competitively.
 

DraginHikari

Emerald Star Legacy
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Draginhikari
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Nintendo can have kind of a strange relationship with it's fanbase. On the one hand as a company they survived a number of things that devasted other console manufactors all because of the staying power and tendcity to try things with hardware people don't expect they've held throughout the years, but on the other hand they are still a very converstative company when it comes to other matters such as the online aspect and many of the legal issues surrounding things such as EVO.

I would be strangely surprised if Nintendo suddenly jumped with full support of competitive scene for Melee or any other Smash game. At the most the EVO situation may have at least given Nintendo a clue on how fan generated press and events are not bad for them, which seems to have been their opinion for awhile now and at least keep them for going too far in the opposite direction. Though this is very hard to say, upper management in a large company is a very complicated when it comes to pretty much anything.
 
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