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Why was sheik nerfed from melee?

foxygrandpa

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 30, 2013
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Compared to the other top tiers in melee, she has a relatively poor neutral game. The DI trap grabs are really cool and fun, but I think it hurt her overall. Her melee grab wasnt unfair at all, and plenty of characters in this game have better grab games than she did. She wasnt unfair in melee, I dont really understand why her grab game is literally half as good. It seems to me like although she is a viable character, she is slightly worse than her melee counterpart, with not much justification for it.
 

Pika_thunder

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Oct 26, 2013
Messages
112
I completely agree with you, I feel that I can deal with the changes, but I would really love to see a complete melee shiek. BUT with that said I feel that the dthrow was cheap. i feel like she should be buffed in other areas, but that's just me.
 

foxygrandpa

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I completely agree with you, I feel that I can deal with the changes, but I would really love to see a complete melee shiek. BUT with that said I feel that the dthrow was cheap. i feel like she should be buffed in other areas, but that's just me.
I understand why the down throw could have been thought of as unfair, but then I remember characters like pit, snake's grabs that are blatantly better than sheiks. I agree with you in saying that she needs a buff in a different area. If you ask me, she is well deserving of a buff to her side special. No one even can implement the chain, its time to buff it a little bit. I understand the spacie tweaks but nerfing sheik doesnt really have much justification.
 

Kit Cal-N

Smash Ace
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856
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St Louis, MO
Mostly what Sheik's throws did was make 2/3 of the cast unviable, and most of the other benefits she retains.
 

BJN39

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Also, for some reason Chain never gets punished.

At least, whenever I see it used... IDK if this was a buff though...

Also, Chain jacket glitch ftw.
 

popsofctown

Smash Champion
Joined
Mar 13, 2008
Messages
2,505
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Hm. Regardless about how people feel about its normal case, it would be a good idea to remove the crash. Even an easy work around like disallowing chain (except grounded chain) altogether before Sheik copies a move onto it.

When you crash the wii it makes a very distracting buzzing noise that sounds like it might be an alarm or an alert. It'd suck for nearby players at a tournament. You don't want TOs having to bother to resolve the issue and assign the DQ. And if heaven forbid it was a Sheik ditto and neither player wants to own up to the crash.. w
 

Arcalyth

GLS | root
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Hm. Regardless about how people feel about its normal case, it would be a good idea to remove the crash. Even an easy work around like disallowing chain (except grounded chain) altogether before Sheik copies a move onto it.

When you crash the wii it makes a very distracting buzzing noise that sounds like it might be an alarm or an alert. It'd suck for nearby players at a tournament. You don't want TOs having to bother to resolve the issue and assign the DQ. And if heaven forbid it was a Sheik ditto and neither player wants to own up to the crash.. w
The likelihood of someone accidentally crashing the game with chain jacket is pretty slim because it's a 1-frame window and the Sheik player would have had to not used any other attack beforehand. If they crash the game they deserve the DQ.
 

popsofctown

Smash Champion
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The likelihood of someone accidentally crashing the game with chain jacket is pretty slim because it's a 1-frame window and the Sheik player would have had to not used any other attack beforehand. If they crash the game they deserve the DQ.
They absolutely deserve the DQ.
Nearby players don't deserve the distraction and TOs don't deserve to need to know how to resolve the issue. Since there is no way to recover the replay enforcement is an issue.

The size of the window is not all-important to the likelihood of accidental crash. If a Sheik main is frequently incorporating shorthop chain jacket in their play, they could easily see the opponent do something they like to respond to with chain jacket, say Ike's side special, and execute a muscle-memory chainjacket absentmindedly even though it's the first move of the match.


I'm not really worried about the sheik player. If you want to fix crash by making the game go to a -silent- screen that says "player 1 is DQ'ed", then do that, whatever
 

RedEyesWhiteSwaggin

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jan 19, 2014
Messages
94
Sheik can't kill and she cannot recover. She is SIGNIFICANTLY worse than in melee.

This is mainly because of the new stages in PM and the new characters, NOT because she was changed.

The MAJORITY of the stages in PM are considerably wider than in melee and the vast majority of recovers travel a LOT further. All of this translates to Sheik not being able to kill with fair/gimp very well. Sheik kills waaaaaaay later than the majority of the cast. In fact she kills later that the majority of the casts' secondary/tertiary/throw KO moves.

This is based of KO testing a friend of mine did. Horizontal KOs done on Dracula's on Peach and vertical/diagonal on DL64 on Mario. NO DI was done. Please note the different tabs in the Excel file and the "Damage" column is the % at which the character died INCLUDING the % done by the KO move: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...SkN6Q1RoclFkYTNiZDBvcUxucGc&usp=sharing#gid=1

This is not to mention Sheik has (probably) the worse recovery in the game. Not only does it have the longest(?) landing lag in the game guaranteeing a bthrow/KO move for the edgeguarder but it also has no decent mixups to it. You can TRY to hit the edgeguarder with the explosion but if they refresh their invincibility correctly it will not matter. going on stage is irrelevant as it cannot be edge cancelled reliably and it can still be punished if you reach a platform. You can go high with the recovery and attempt to fall back to the edge but this can be reacted to. The only real mixup is to pretend to go for a platform and fall just short so that you end up below it. THIS CAN STILL BE COVERED.


I agree that the dthrow nerf is necessary and fair to remove all of her melee CGs but the bthrow/dthrow mixup can be reacted to consistently and hurts her game a LOOOT. Having a DI dependent throw is a great idea/design but it is hardly good when Mario/Link/Ivy/Ganny/Fox/TL/Zard/MK/ROB/Snake get guaranteed follow ups at low % and guaranteed KILLS at KO %. Also uthrow is still basically useless and fthrow isn't great.

Sheik is by no means low tier now, that is not at all what I am saying. Crawl is a GREAT addition as okami said and it helps with grab heavy characters and falco IMO. The only reason she is still "top tier" according to all the tourney placings is simply due to the sheer number of people who play her and play her well. The same people who are beating people now in PM with her were beating people in Melee with her. The VAST majority of new players/previously casual melee players/brawl players (which is a looooot of PM players) have trouble with the sheik matchup.
 

Cazobie

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jun 20, 2014
Messages
21
Im kinda upset they took out both melee sheik down throw and brawl sheik DACUS it was an amazing finisher move and i would LOVE to see it in PM but sheik is still strong dont get me wrong i just love DACUS :)
 

Searing_Sorrow

Smash Journeyman
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May 19, 2014
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433
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Alma/Statesboro Georgia
If sheik gets her brawl chain for recovery, I can see the down throw being warranted and her being an all around hi tier character that can keep up with the other newcomers and buffed veterans. The dacus is nice but may be overkill, the best thing for her is to address the terrible recovery, since that seems to be a universal buff. Though that may mean falco getting his brawl side b length and marth getting his brawl up b, oh no what have I started lol
 

|~J~|

Smash Rookie
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May 27, 2014
Messages
6
i agree with ppl when they to give her back her chain tether for another way to recover. i also think that her down b should be replaced with an attack instead of the transformation into zelda
 

Roxas215

Smash Lord
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Yeah, let's buff Sheik's recovery. Taking away one of the few ways to punish Sheik is a great idea. You know what this game needs? More good recoveries. Solid post.

Because good game design is 90% of the cast having great recoveries AND guaranteed kill setups. While Shiek doesn't have neither............
 

Scaremonger

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Nov 10, 2013
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News Flash ***** you're not a real gamer
Because good game design is 90% of the cast having great recoveries AND guaranteed kill setups. While Shiek doesn't have neither............
I don't get why so many people talk about Sheik being bad in this game. Dunno what you're talking about with Sheik having no guaranteed kill setups either. She has a good recovery for just getting back to the stage after going off for a kill of her own, but taking away her ability to be edgeguarded reliably is just stupid. If sheik wasn't able to be easily edgeguarded, she would be stupid good. I also have no clue what the hell OP is talking about with Sheik being relatively bad in neutral relative to other melee top tiers, because that's completely and utterly wrong, lol.

Sheik is still very, very good in PM. She lost her stupid downthrow and her recovery is relatively weaker to other characters, but she also gained a lot of tools (RAR is amazing for Sheik, just as an example)
 

Roxas215

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I don't get why so many people talk about Sheik being bad in this game. Dunno what you're talking about with Sheik having no guaranteed kill setups either. She has a good recovery for just getting back to the stage after going off for a kill of her own, but taking away her ability to be edgeguarded reliably is just stupid. If sheik wasn't able to be easily edgeguarded, she would be stupid good. I also have no clue what the hell OP is talking about with Sheik being relatively bad in neutral relative to other melee top tiers, because that's completely and utterly wrong, lol.

Sheik is still very, very good in PM. She lost her stupid downthrow and her recovery is relatively weaker to other characters, but she also gained a lot of tools (RAR is amazing for Sheik, just as an example)
Your not giving any examples on why Sheik is good. SHE SUCKS. She has no guaranteed kill setups even though 90% of the cast does(Any good player will DI her throws properly). She can't edgeguard properly when most of the cast recoveries are too good. She gets gimped so easily. Her recovery is terrible. WHAT MAKES HER GOOD?? (She can RAR) WTF??? SO CAN EVERYONE ELSE. Sheik didn't gain ANYTHING and lost what makes Sheik Sheik.

Only thing Sheik gained was being able to transform to a better character......... And crawling
 
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Scaremonger

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News Flash ***** you're not a real gamer
...do you seriously think that Sheik can't edgeguard properly? I don't even know how to respond to most of this, lol. If you think that Zelda is a better character than Sheik, then you're just bad.

And yes, I am aware that everyone is able to RAR. Sheik's, however, is just extra good.
 
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Roxas215

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...do you seriously think that Sheik can't edgeguard properly? I don't even know how to respond to most of this, lol. If you think that Zelda is a better character than Sheik, then you're just bad.

And yes, I am aware that everyone is able to RAR. Sheik's, however, is just extra good.
She can edgeguard certain recoveries yes. However there are plenty of recoveries that she can;t. Mewtwo/Pit/MK/Mario and tethers are the first to pop up in my mind.

And yes i fully believe Zelda is better then Sheik in this game.
 
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Scaremonger

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She can edgeguard certain recoveries yes. However there are plenty of recoveries that she can;t. Mewtwo/Pit/Mario and tethers are the first to pop up in my mind.
Lol, Mewtwo isn't a character you're really supposed to edgeguard. Nobody can gimp mewtwo, that's something that people need to start accepting. You're supposed to kill him off the top, which sheik is totally equipped to do. Pit is also not super hard to edgeguard. If you get him below stage level, you only need to bair like what 3 doublejumps? Once those are gone, his up+b is kinda ****. On top of that, Sheik is one of the best at edgeguarding tethers in the game.

And yes i fully believe Zelda is better then Sheik in this game.
Well, Zelda is the scrub killer, so based on your previous posts I'm not really surprised.

It's kind of surprising to me that someone who has apparently been into competitive smash games since 2008 can have such ridiculous opinions.
 

Roxas215

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T
Lol, Mewtwo isn't a character you're really supposed to edgeguard. Nobody can gimp mewtwo, that's something that people need to start accepting. You're supposed to kill him off the top, which sheik is totally equipped to do. Pit is also not super hard to edgeguard. If you get him below stage level, you only need to bair like what 3 doublejumps? Once those are gone, his up+b is kinda ****. On top of that, Sheik is one of the best at edgeguarding tethers in the game.



Well, Zelda is the scrub killer, so based on your previous posts I'm not really surprised.

It's kind of surprising to me that someone who has apparently been into competitive smash games since 2008 can have such ridiculous opinions.
There is documented proof Zelda places better then Sheik. So how is Sheik better? I don't even play Sheik anymore. I been dropped her cause she's horrible. I main ZSS and second MK. Both characters who do what Sheik does 10x better.

I keep asking for people to explain why Sheik is good and NO ONE DOES. You say "She has RAR" Other people say "She has 50/50 grab setups" (Which she really doesn't. If you DI down. it's not a 50/50 at all)

Everyone says Shiek is fine. yet she doesn't place at any tournaments. So whats going on??? Every character i think is good has tournament standings to back it up.

And what does Zelda being a "Scrub" killer has anything to do with her being better then Sheik? At any point did you read me say im having trouble with Zelda??? If anyone is a scrub killer it's Mario. Braindead fireball wall is soooooooooooooooooo effective.
 

Scaremonger

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There is documented proof Zelda places better then Sheik. So how is Sheik better? I don't even play Sheik anymore. I been dropped her cause she's horrible. I main ZSS and second MK. Both characters who do what Sheik does 10x better.
In what universe does better placement equal better character? People used to get ****ed up by Bowser all the time before they learned how to deal with his ****, lol.

I keep asking for people to explain why Sheik is good and NO ONE DOES. You say "She has RAR" Other people say "She has 50/50 grab setups" (Which she really doesn't. If you DI down. it's not a 50/50 at all)
Sheik is good because She has RAR and She has 50/50 grab setups.

And what does Zelda being a "Scrub" killer has anything to do with her being better then Sheik? At any point did you read me say im having trouble with Zelda??? If anyone is a scrub killer it's Mario. Braindead fireball wall is soooooooooooooooooo effective.
Because people who suck and/or don't know the matchup get killed by her bull**** when she's actually not a great character. People have been learning how to play vs Sheik for over a decade. Zelda is the scrub killer because people who aren't able to learn and adapt to her are going to lose.[/quote]
 
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strike42

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 11, 2007
Messages
256
Can someone please tell me how shiek is a bad character?

"
Lucas Inui DeLorenzo: sheik is bad
Lucas Inui DeLorenzo: my mains are widely considered awful"

Or is it just inui being inui?

I'm just curious because he constantly complains that shiek(and roy) are bad.
 

Arcalyth

GLS | root
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She can edgeguard certain recoveries yes. However there are plenty of recoveries that she can;t. Mewtwo/Pit/MK/Mario and tethers are the first to pop up in my mind.
Do you know how to ledgedrop or throw needles? Waveland>nair/Bair off the edge is also very effective. Sheik's strengths are fast movement that allows her to bait responses, a projectile that forces responses even without even throwing them, hard punishes via tech chasing, platform punishes, and juggling, as well as above-average edge guarding ability. She doesn't trade well and has below-average recovery. Work around these traits. I don't think you're using her tools effectively and she definitely did not lose what makes sheik herself.

Also if you're having trouble killing with fair and following up with a good edgeguard the just combo into uair instead to kill off the top. Everything in this game is about positioning and cutting off options. Killing the great recoveries in this game means getting them below the stage. Needles.
 
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DMG

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Inui complains a lot about his characters, but he's trying to play Roy and Sheik in a game where stuff like MK exists. From that perspective, every char is basically **** lol
 

DMG

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DMG#931
Imagine old Dthrow, with the current timing

The buffs are too real
 

Jinjo64

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Peeps are just mad because of the missing down throw. This isn't the same Sheik. We need to discover new things with her and use them in PM. The game is early in its meta! Which means we haven't discovered everything with Sheik. Also Zelda is technically "better" than sheik now. If you consider tournament placing and match ups. Which Zelda does well against more people than Sheik atm.

If Amsa could raise Yoshi up. I'm sure we could do the same for Shiek!
 

Lil Puddin

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All she needs is a less pathetic excuse for a recovery. Other than that she is kind of solid but isn't too good against people with expansive tool kits or safe+fast go to options.

I say give her that side B or extend her up B recovery. She has awful vertical recovery that is also pretty laggy for something so short. Oh and super easy to ledge hog which adds insult to injury. When she sweet spots a ledge with someone on it the target should get spiked. After all, it's easy to edge guard Sheik anyway. So if anything it'd be a little something to make her less of a joke when she is flung off stage. Something's gotta give.
 
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