Why was Olimar so downgraded?

[9-bit the Platyhog]

Although I did main Olimar for a while, he wasn't that great in Brawl. So why did they downgrade him so much in SSB4? I was thinking about using him in SSB4, but after I saw his details, I'm not so sure.

 

[Jerry Applesauce]

I'm guessing that having that many Pikmin onscreen (and considering there could be three other Olimars with Pikmin onscreen as well) would not have worked well on the 3DS version technically, and so they had to reduce the amount of Pikmin he carried so it could be the same on both versions.

 

[The Drilling Juggernaut]

I'm hoping now that he has three Pikmin keeping them alive to flower actually boost them a considerable amount. That in mind Olimar could actually be a monster. If you manage your Pikmin (like in the series) they'll do more damage and be able to take more hits. Instead of flinging them at any given opportunity, bid your time, wait for them to grow, and then unleash them at their full potential. That way they'll hold on longer, do more damage, and when they are finally shaken off they are more likely to return instead of dying on the way back.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Although I did main Olimar for a while, he wasn't that great in Brawl.

He's third on the tier list...

 

[Burigu]

Although I did main Olimar for a while, he wasn't that great in Brawl. So why did they downgrade him so much in SSB4? I was thinking about using him in SSB4, but after I saw his details, I'm not so sure.

No offense to you, but Olimar is acording to tiers very good, maybe you are not good with him, having 3 pikmin or 5 is no necesary a "downgrade" it's to be about the among of characters on screen being a problem, Rosalina and Luma etc they might have more problems the more characters a cpu has to mantain so that is a hipotethical reason, other is to keep the randomness to a minimum the other of the pikmin is now fixed

 

[9-bit the Platyhog]

He's third on the tier list...

I never look at the tier... But nobody I knew was good with him, so I assumed he wasn't good.

 

[Jackson]

He was broken in Brawl... he deserved a nerf. IMO playing against him in SSBB was very frustrating.

 

[SmashBro99]

3DS crap cant handle Brawl Olimar obv.

 

[Jackson]

3DS crap cant handle Brawl Olimar obv.

That's kinda mean... I think it could.

 

[Jerry Applesauce]

Think four Brawl Olimars on a cruise-style stage with all items turned on high (i.e. this means Poke Balls and Assist Trophies), and to top it off, over Wi-Fi on a 3DS. I don't know man.

 

[Oatmeal.]

Downgraded? This is better! So much easier to keep track of three instead of six. That's all I really need anyway. Plus, they're plucked in a certain order, so I can do so knowing which one's next, making fishing for certain colors easy. And that recovery looks a crap ton better than friggin' Pikmin Chain.

I think he's got nothing but upgrades.

 

[Jackson]

Downgraded? This is better! So much easier to keep track of three instead of six. That's all I really need anyway. Plus, they're plucked in a certain order, so I can do so knowing which one's next, making fishing for certain colors easy. And that recovery looks a crap ton better than friggin' Pikmin Chain.

I think he's got nothing but upgrades.

I guess that's a good way to look at it. I do agree that the recovery seems to be better.

 

[Katakiri]

I think the only nerf Olimar got was that killing his Pikmin now affect him.

I've argued since the Balance Brawl mod was big that Olimar's Pikmin numbers was why he was so good. When he has 6 Pikmin, you can kill 3 of them at the same time (not easily done anyhow) and Olimar is entirely unhindered on-stage; doesn't have to slow down his attacks to wait for his Pikmin and can pluck 3 more at a moment's notice. You might as well have not have bothered killing them.

But now if you crush 2 Pikmin, Olimar is actively gimped and MUST pull more Pikmin. Additionally when Olimar fishes for Purple Pikmin, he has to throw them away one at a time or he risks gimping himself terribly so that tactic is practically non-viable.

Pikmin management is more important than it was previously and it make Olimar a character that really has to rely on safe hits and great prediction to keep his Pikmin safe. As long as Olimar's moveset is up to par for these changes, the Pikmin nerf is a very healthy one overall.

 

[Jackson]

I think the only nerf Olimar got was that killing his Pikmin now affect him.

I've argued since the Balance Brawl mod was big that Olimar's Pikmin numbers was why he was so good. When he has 6 Pikmin, you can kill 3 of them at the same time (not easily done anyhow) and Olimar is entirely unhindered on-stage; doesn't have to slow down his attacks to wait for his Pikmin and can pluck 3 more at a moment's notice. You might as well have not have bothered killing them.

But now if you crush 2 Pikmin, Olimar is actively gimped and MUST pull more Pikmin. Additionally when Olimar fishes for Purple Pikmin, he has to throw them away one at a time or he risks gimping himself terribly so that tactic is practically non-viable.

Pikmin management is more important than it was previously and it make Olimar a character that really has to rely on safe hits and great prediction to keep his Pikmin safe. As long as Olimar's moveset is up to par for these changes, the Pikmin nerf is a very healthy one overall.

Very intelligent post, I agree with your points. So, did the Direct show that purple pikmin will weigh down his recovery more than other types? I didn't catch that.

 

[9-bit the Platyhog]

He was broken in Brawl... he deserved a nerf. IMO playing against him in SSBB was very frustrating.

Yeah, I could never beat him when he was a computer...

 

[Jackson]

Yeah, I could never beat him when he was a computer...

Haha, I didn't think CPU Olimars were all that fearsome because in my experience they wouldnt always pluck pikmin when needed, so they couldn't recover when knocked offstage.

 

[9-bit the Platyhog]

I guess that's a good way to look at it. I do agree that the recovery seems to be better.

Although the recovery does look a bit better, I don't think it's good for the fact that if you have pikmin, you don't go as high.

 

[Jackson]

Although the recovery does look a bit better, I don't think it's good for the fact that if you have pikmin, you don't go as high.

I felt the exact same way. If you have to ditch all your Pikmin to get back from a long hit, you're gonna have trouble when you get back on the stage. (Olimar, in Brawl, had like one or two attacks that he didnt need Pikmin for)

 

[Morbi]

No offense to you, but Olimar is acording to tiers very good, maybe you are not good with him, having 3 pikmin or 5 is no necesary a "downgrade" it's to be about the among of characters on screen being a problem, Rosalina and Luma etc they might have more problems the more characters a cpu has to mantain so that is a hipotethical reason, other is to keep the randomness to a minimum the other of the pikmin is now fixed

Tiers based on neutral stages in a competitive meta-game with no items MIGHT be different from what the OP is used to playing. Obviously.

 

[Substitution]

Honestly, here's how I see it.
The only issue I see him having in the future is his projectile and grab game.
But other than that, he could still be decent.

 

[9-bit the Platyhog]

I felt the exact same way. If you have to ditch all your Pikmin to get back from a long hit, you're gonna have trouble when you get back on the stage. (Olimar, in Brawl, had like one or two attacks that he didnt need Pikmin for)

That makes it sound awful, just "ditching the Pikmin"... but I do agree, and that's my main concern.

 

[Demon-oni]

I actually love the sound of how olimar works now. Pikmin management is not only risk/reward but also has visual evolutionary match progressions, which is fricken sweet.

Think of it this way. Sure, having less pikmin now means that you can't just send them to their deaths. It really sucks because that leaves you open to attacks if you have no pikmin at your side when they charge, even if they are just returning because you side b'd them all at once. Essentially the nerf to him was to tone down the frequency of attacks by giving him less ammo capacity, causing him to need to pluck more often to go offensive, and not send a roflstomp of attacks because he would be pretty vulnerable with no pikmins at his side. Originally this would've killed his game, but the two buffs that he got were rather astronomical.

Having flying pikmin as his recovery move means he is not nearly as insta-gimped as he was recovering in Brawl. In fact, one could say recovering off stage with no pikmin is the preferred choice. His recovery patterns will likely act like we saw in the direct, throwing all or most remaining pikmin at the opponent to prevent edge guarding as well as getting a really strong recovery. He might have less pikmin when he lands, but a forward smash usually give you the space to get a pluck or two to regroup so long as it isn't straight up dodged, so his recovery game is solid, especially if he has some purples.

Having a fixed order is....insanely good. I don't see why they're giving him something so strong. Ok my first point is obvious, you will always know what pikmin you're getting, which will greatly benefit you in times in the match where you need to focus on aerials (red), throws (blue/purple), zoning (purple,white), kill (purple,red) and combos (yellow). But there's also the secondary buff that comes with it that most people don't seem to get. Because you pluck in a fixed order, it is incredibly easier to get a team of the same colored pikmin. While some match ups this does nothing for, it allows him to absolutely stomp characters that have elemental affinities. Say for example, you're fighting a Pikachu. Yellow pikmin obviously counter him because they die only to certain attacks from Pikachu. With Brawl Olimar, at best you could counter pick a stage with floors that had a high likelihood of spawning yellow pikmin, and otherwise at best had to pray to RNGesus. In Smash 4 though, because your guaranteed a Yellow every sixth pluck, it's very likely you'll see a 3 yellow team in a match. Even in the event that the opponent is competent and even tries to kill a yellow, they are restricted to a small portion of their move set to kill it, all while focusing on a move that won't just hit it but also be useful against you or at the very least not leave himself open. While your other pikmin will die really easily to Pika, your Yellows will more likely persevere than not. Eventually, through process of evolution so to speak, a team of yellows will emerge mid match through your intervention or not and start allowing you to take hard control of the match, thereby inherently teaching you the best pikmin for the matchup even without you originally knowing. Sounds cool right? Now how likely is it? I'm not sure, and it's probably a bit lower than I'm giving credit in my example, but conceptually it's sound with Sm4sh Olimar whereas with Brawlimar is was just a roll of the dice.

I might pick him up as a sub again because of this. Sounds a lot better than side b spam with the most bs grab in the game.

 

[Jackson]

I actually love the sound of how olimar works now. Pikmin management is not only risk/reward but also has visual evolutionary match progressions, which is fricken sweet.

Think of it this way. Sure, having less pikmin now means that you can't just send them to their deaths. It really sucks because that leaves you open to attacks if you have no pikmin at your side when they charge, even if they are just returning because you side b'd them all at once. Essentially the nerf to him was to tone down the frequency of attacks by giving him less ammo capacity, causing him to need to pluck more often to go offensive, and not send a roflstomp of attacks because he would be pretty vulnerable with no pikmins at his side. Originally this would've killed his game, but the two buffs that he got were rather astronomical.

Having flying pikmin as his recovery move means he is not nearly as insta-gimped as he was recovering in Brawl. In fact, one could say recovering off stage with no pikmin is the preferred choice. His recovery patterns will likely act like we saw in the direct, throwing all or most remaining pikmin at the opponent to prevent edge guarding as well as getting a really strong recovery. He might have less pikmin when he lands, but a forward smash usually give you the space to get a pluck or two to regroup so long as it isn't straight up dodged, so his recovery game is solid, especially if he has some purples.

Having a fixed order is....insanely good. I don't see why they're giving him something so strong. Ok my first point is obvious, you will always know what pikmin you're getting, which will greatly benefit you in times in the match where you need to focus on aerials (red), throws (blue/purple), zoning (purple,white), kill (purple,red) and combos (yellow). But there's also the secondary buff that comes with it that most people don't seem to get. Because you pluck in a fixed order, it is incredibly easier to get a team of the same colored pikmin. While some match ups this does nothing for, it allows him to absolutely stomp characters that have elemental affinities. Say for example, you're fighting a Pikachu. Yellow pikmin obviously counter him because they die only to certain attacks from Pikachu. With Brawl Olimar, at best you could counter pick a stage with floors that had a high likelihood of spawning yellow pikmin, and otherwise at best had to pray to RNGesus. In Smash 4 though, because your guaranteed a Yellow every sixth pluck, it's very likely you'll see a 3 yellow team in a match. Even in the event that the opponent is competent and even tries to kill a yellow, they are restricted to a small portion of their move set to kill it, all while focusing on a move that won't just hit it but also be useful against you or at the very least not leave himself open. While your other pikmin will die really easily to Pika, your Yellows will more likely persevere than not. Eventually, through process of evolution so to speak, a team of yellows will emerge mid match through your intervention or not and start allowing you to take hard control of the match, thereby inherently teaching you the best pikmin for the matchup even without you originally knowing. Sounds cool right? Now how likely is it? I'm not sure, and it's probably a bit lower than I'm giving credit in my example, but conceptually it's sound with Sm4sh Olimar whereas with Brawlimar is was just a roll of the dice.

I might pick him up as a sub again because of this. Sounds a lot better than side b spam with the most bs grab in the game.

Fantastic analysis. I hadn't even thought of the one color team idea. You have single-handedly interested me in this character. Great work!

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

Olimar was goddamn broken and annoying next to Meta Knight and Diddy Kong. His great number of Pikmin allowed him to attack at a decent range and keep the opponent at bay; if you wanted to get to him you had to get through his Pikmin first which is a whole challenge by itself, and by the time you were done with them you were too damaged to stand a fair chance as he could easily knock you off thanks to his ranged and fairly quick Smash attacks. Yes, his recovery was not very good but getting him off the stage was no easy task.
I welcome this nerf since it means that he won't be as unfair as before and hopefully still be competent.

This reminds a little of Ultimecia's Knight's Spear nerf in Dissidia Duodecim. She was able to pull up to six stationary projectiles in the original but were reduced to three in the sequel. And yet, she remained top tier in that game.

 

[9-bit the Platyhog]

I actually love the sound of how olimar works now. Pikmin management is not only risk/reward but also has visual evolutionary match progressions, which is fricken sweet.

Think of it this way. Sure, having less pikmin now means that you can't just send them to their deaths. It really sucks because that leaves you open to attacks if you have no pikmin at your side when they charge, even if they are just returning because you side b'd them all at once. Essentially the nerf to him was to tone down the frequency of attacks by giving him less ammo capacity, causing him to need to pluck more often to go offensive, and not send a roflstomp of attacks because he would be pretty vulnerable with no pikmins at his side. Originally this would've killed his game, but the two buffs that he got were rather astronomical.

Having flying pikmin as his recovery move means he is not nearly as insta-gimped as he was recovering in Brawl. In fact, one could say recovering off stage with no pikmin is the preferred choice. His recovery patterns will likely act like we saw in the direct, throwing all or most remaining pikmin at the opponent to prevent edge guarding as well as getting a really strong recovery. He might have less pikmin when he lands, but a forward smash usually give you the space to get a pluck or two to regroup so long as it isn't straight up dodged, so his recovery game is solid, especially if he has some purples.

Having a fixed order is....insanely good. I don't see why they're giving him something so strong. Ok my first point is obvious, you will always know what pikmin you're getting, which will greatly benefit you in times in the match where you need to focus on aerials (red), throws (blue/purple), zoning (purple,white), kill (purple,red) and combos (yellow). But there's also the secondary buff that comes with it that most people don't seem to get. Because you pluck in a fixed order, it is incredibly easier to get a team of the same colored pikmin. While some match ups this does nothing for, it allows him to absolutely stomp characters that have elemental affinities. Say for example, you're fighting a Pikachu. Yellow pikmin obviously counter him because they die only to certain attacks from Pikachu. With Brawl Olimar, at best you could counter pick a stage with floors that had a high likelihood of spawning yellow pikmin, and otherwise at best had to pray to RNGesus. In Smash 4 though, because your guaranteed a Yellow every sixth pluck, it's very likely you'll see a 3 yellow team in a match. Even in the event that the opponent is competent and even tries to kill a yellow, they are restricted to a small portion of their move set to kill it, all while focusing on a move that won't just hit it but also be useful against you or at the very least not leave himself open. While your other pikmin will die really easily to Pika, your Yellows will more likely persevere than not. Eventually, through process of evolution so to speak, a team of yellows will emerge mid match through your intervention or not and start allowing you to take hard control of the match, thereby inherently teaching you the best pikmin for the matchup even without you originally knowing. Sounds cool right? Now how likely is it? I'm not sure, and it's probably a bit lower than I'm giving credit in my example, but conceptually it's sound with Sm4sh Olimar whereas with Brawlimar is was just a roll of the dice.

I might pick him up as a sub again because of this. Sounds a lot better than side b spam with the most bs grab in the game.

This was beautiful. It may have changed my opinion on this whole subject. I may start rethinking mt life now.

 

[Burigu]

Tiers based on neutral stages in a competitive meta-game with no items MIGHT be different from what the OP is used to playing. Obviously.

You might be right I didn't think of that, but in the end someone who is really good with a character is going to be good with said character no matter what are the circumstances, I have main Yoshi since melee and became really good with him, and I can bet other top tiers with or without items and in no competitive stages, my point being that OP said he main Olimar and didn't find him good enough, but if you are good you will do well playing for fun or competitive, again no offense to you OP only saying maybe you need to polish yourself a bit more based on you own perception

 

[negativeX]

One - Olimar wasn't "downgraded" just changed (or more precisely we don't know if he's now better or worse).
Two - The first opponent I actually considered better than myself used Olimar and dude, he's a boss.

 

[Altais]

Though I seriously doubt I will main Olimar, as he is just not the fighter for me, I must say I rather like this change. What I like most is how the Pikmin now come out in a fixed order instead of at random. Like above posters have said, this just encourages players to manage their Pikmin better. And look on the bright side: at least your chance of recovery is no longer dictated by the amount of Pikmin you have. It is like a game of chess: you have to know how and when to use your pieces as well as when to sacrifice them. Though, I must say, I was hoping to see the Rock Pikmin...

...You know, I am starting to regret never playing Pikmin for the GameCube... Hopefully they will release it on the Wii U virtual console. Honestly, I do not see why they did not release downloadable GameCube titles on the Wii U in the first place, especially since the Wii U is not backward compatible with GameCube discs.

But anyway, to get back on topic... I guess I will try out Olimar nevertheless, though again, I seriously doubt he will be mine main character.

 

[Wii Twerk Trainer]

Man olimar got hit with the nerf train hard. Oh well I'll still use him but he won't be as good as brawl olimar

 

[lordvaati]

A good chunk of the game is being balanced around FD-like stages.

Guess which character had a bit too much of an advantage on FD in Brawl.

 

[Demon-oni]

Too be fair Diddy had the most insane advantage on FD in Brawl, though Olimar was a near second.

I will say Olimar is overall more nerfed than he was buffed, but because of his other changes he isn't on the nerf train to trench tier. I still say just by generally move set alone he'll sit around higher mid. Not to mention the fact that fixed order allows him to tailor his team to his matchup, which means stomping elemental users and being able to compete match ups similar to MK by forming a team of purples.

 

[L9999]

Too be fair Diddy had the most insane advantage on FD in Brawl, though Olimar was a near second.

Well, if bananas are techable this time around then Diddy's metagame goes to hell. I too agree Olimar was more nerfed as it is easier to gimp his recovery.

 

[Demon-oni]

Well, if bananas are techable this time around then Diddy's metagame goes to hell. I too agree Olimar was more nerfed as it is easier to gimp his recovery.

I wouldn't think it's easier to gimp him at all. If anything his recovery got severely buffed. The sheer distance that recovery covers is huge, the only trade off being the more distance you get the more vulnerable you'll be when you land. And rather than tripping be techable, I just want him to have one banana. Fixed character.

 

[Wii Twerk Trainer]

I believe diddy still has 2 bananas. Uhh seems like he will be a top tier threat again. Guess I'm gonna have to secondary rosalina to counter him xP

 

[G-Sword]

olimar needed to have less pikmin just beca

Olimar was goddamn broken and annoying next to Meta Knight and Diddy Kong. His great number of Pikmin allowed him to attack at a decent range and keep the opponent at bay; if you wanted to get to him you had to get through his Pikmin first which is a whole challenge by itself, and by the time you were done with them you were too damaged to stand a fair chance as he could easily knock you off thanks to his ranged and fairly quick Smash attacks. Yes, his recovery was not very good but getting him off the stage was no easy task.
I welcome this nerf since it means that he won't be as unfair as before and hopefully still be competent.

sums up my opinion. he needed to have less pikmin or just make the character weaker somehow. in his game it was about managing your pikmin carefully, knowing when and how to use them, and not just spamming throwing pikmin with no care in the world like it was in brawl. in ssb4 there actually making you use olimar the way he should be used if you ask me. olimar was a cheap character and way overpowered.

 

[HermitHelmet]

Olimar was a cheap ass character. Wait for Purples, then profit after F-Smashing.

 

[Jackson]

Olimar was a cheap *** character. Wait for Purples, then profit after F-Smashing.

Or Up-Smashing, or Down-Smashing. All of 'em were pretty broken. Add that to the fact that approaching him without taking upwards of 30 % is very hard, and you have an unfair character.

 

[Yomi's Biggest Fan]

I bet people were whining over him being high tier or too overpowered. His 6 Pikmin limit and random Pikmin chances made him a tricky fighter in Brawl.

 

[Jerm]

Though I seriously doubt I will main Olimar, as he is just not the fighter for me, I must say I rather like this change. What I like most is how the Pikmin now come out in a fixed order instead of at random. Like above posters have said, this just encourages players to manage their Pikmin better. And look on the bright side: at least your chance of recovery is no longer dictated by the amount of Pikmin you have. It is like a game of chess: you have to know how and when to use your pieces as well as when to sacrifice them. Though, I must say, I was hoping to see the Rock Pikmin...

...You know, I am starting to regret never playing Pikmin for the GameCube... Hopefully they will release it on the Wii U virtual console. Honestly, I do not see why they did not release downloadable GameCube titles on the Wii U in the first place, especially since the Wii U is not backward compatible with GameCube discs.

But anyway, to get back on topic... I guess I will try out Olimar nevertheless, though again, I seriously doubt he will be mine main character.

They've made re-releases of both Pikmin 1 and 2 for Wii. You should definitely invest since they are really great games!

 

[leprechaunlink727]

Olimar was by far my favorite character in Brawl and his ability to completely overwhelm my foes with little vegetable men was a large part of that. That said, the nerf of only having three Pikmin seems balanced by the buff of them appearing in a fixed order, and he'll probably end up being just as good without being quite so spammy.