Why Sonic Sucks- aka learn to player.

[ShadowLink84]

Hmm i have to make that post about don't get hit soon.

 

[JayBee]

That was touching, thanks.

Wow you are retardedly funny. key word on "********"

 

[Tenki]

WTF!? Come on.

Like Umby said, fakeout maneuvers are a huge factor for a decent Sonic facing marth, or well any character. You need to be one step ahead. If you are playing a decent sonic, you can sometimes assume he/she will cancel the ASC into a shield if they are unlikely to make contact, so punish accordingly. Shield breaker is indeed very useful here. Sonics will use their shield in general probably moreso than any other character. We shield cancel dashes, SideBs and ASCs all the time.

Landing a tipper against a Sonic that is constantly on the run can be difficult, but not impossible. You will find their playstyles can vary immensely, however most decent sonics make use of their tools in some for or another, so know them, and punish them.

...

Sonic's SideB, UpB, and Usmash all have invincibility frames on their initial frames. SideB right after release, UpB for about a full hops height after release, and Usmash for a very small number of frames during the hop animation. Depending on the Sonic, you may see this put to use or not.

Don't counter too much. Sonic can obviously cover a lot of distance in a short amount of time, so if you whiff it, you while either be grabbed or homing attacked.

But yea, You guys still definately have the advantage, just please don't underestimate a good Sonic. You will get punished.

Do NOT think that way if you are ever to face a good Sonic. By now Sonics have either realized that priority is not an issue, or they have worked around the issue. What does priority matter when you can run up to your face from across a fourth of FD in 15 frames, powershield your jab or whatever grounded attack, and grab you to get a free 20+ damage after follow-ups?

Again...
Skill level doesn`t matter, this is a character match-up discussion.
This is not about who is going to win, but who have the advantage.

wtf. Did you see that reaction?

I thought you people read this thread.

meh.

 

[memphischains]

I did Tenki.

I did.

Steak.

 

[Tenki]

I made this thread to avoid repeating that very situation -_-;

Title is now dynamic.

 

[JMan8891]

Agreeing with Tenki
Notice how Mr.3000 places?? W/out AT?? He be a player. Knowledge and options are great... but basics deal/save damage and kinna dictate a match... not that smexy spinshot.
Im hitting my basics recently and low'n'behold... im doing better. Im aware and good at the AT, but spacing and reading has made me a better player...

Sonic is MY tool, and **** lucky to be. Don't let the opposite befall you...

 

[Dark Sonic]

wtf. Did you see that reaction?

I thought you people read this thread.

meh.

Well, I personally think they shouldn't be completely discounted, simply because Sonic is rather safe when using said fakout options, and will be using them throughout the match. Given the players are of equal skill, he will eventually succeed in one of his fakeouts, so I think it's only fair to include this in the matchup data (just like how it is assumed that characters will sometimes penetrate Marth's range, despite it being theoretically impenetrable).

 

[memphischains]

agree to agree about disagreeing or i'll steak you

 

[JMan8891]

Fears teh Steak*
Srryz... *sniffel*
AT are tools, obviously help. Any good Sonic won't run, spinshot away, SD shield cancel, spinshot... while breakdancing either

 

[Napilopez]

Loll I'm afraid now. What did I do wrong? Whats the point of a character discussion, when I can't give an idea as to how Sonics will react to certain situations? Especially if I'm trying to help the marth mains undertstand the match-up better? it wasn't as if I was arguing sonic has the advantage or anything.

It did come out harshly I can understand that, but just trying to make a point -_-

Confused and intimidated T-T

Edit:
Just to explain myself better:

I explained what I believed to be marth's advantages pretty clearly. The advantage he had as a character against Sonics. I was moreso trying to emphasize. I in no moment factored those things you bolded into the matchup itself. The matchup is 60:40, 70:30 whatever.

The things you bolded tenki were simply my advice as to how to better deal with a Sonic. A matchup discussion isn't ONLY about saying which character has an advantage over the other, it also discusses how to deal with those characters in certain situations. I'll edit that post so that it doesn't sound like such a harsh reaction but geez, =/. If in out matchup thread we just said "Oh marth has an advantage, lets say 65:35", that wouldn't actually help people out much would it? You should go into detail... which is what I tried to do.

 

[Tenki]

I explained what I believed to be marth's advantages pretty clearly. The advantage he had as a character against Sonics. I was moreso trying to emphasize. I in no moment factored those things you bolded into the matchup itself. The matchup is 60:40, 70:30 whatever.

The things you bolded tenki were simply my advice as to how to better deal with a Sonic. A matchup discussion isn't ONLY about saying which character has an advantage over the other, it also discusses how to deal with those characters in certain situations. I'll edit that post so that it doesn't sound like such a harsh reaction but geez, =/. If in our matchup thread we just said "Oh marth has an advantage, lets say 65:35", that wouldn't actually help people out much would it? You should go into detail... which is what I tried to do.

Oho.

But they want an objective matchup analysis.
and from the looks of this thread
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=186736

70:30 is exactly what they want. If they want real matchup help, they'll ask for it.

Again...
Skill level doesn`t matter, this is a character match-up discussion.
This is not about who is going to win, but who have the advantage.

see?

Umby gave them fair warning that a real game won't reflect what's on paper, and that should be fine for all my intents and their needs.

I'm helping them too. I'm helping them see what they want.

 

[Napilopez]

Oho.

But they want an objective matchup analysis.
and from the looks of this thread
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=186736

70:30 is exactly what they want. If they want real matchup help, they'll ask for it.

Umby gave them fair warning that a real game won't reflect what's on paper, and that should be fine for all my intents and their needs.

I'm helping them too. I'm helping them see what they want.

Fair enough.

However, you just linked to the index of the matchups. If you click on the links, the posters provide petty detailed informations on the matchups: the properties of certain moves in these opposing chars, how certain people will use these moves, how differen't players might make use of different moves, etc. Which is what i was giving them information on...

Buttt I do realize, mostly as I typed this lol, that they used that objective information to come up with that "on paper" match-up. While I was giving them information more so on how to deal with certain situations. Which is what I guess you were getting at, lol, my apologies. XD

 

[Boxob]

yo kis, jeruys mad drunk, ****.

hoi.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Agreeing with Tenki
Notice how Mr.3000 places?? W/out AT?? He be a player. Knowledge and options are great... but basics deal/save damage and kinna dictate a match... not that smexy spinshot.

btw, he uses snake and D3 more than sonic these days. and do you know why, i do.

its because his playstyle (along with most sonics) was learned, and he started getting predicatable because people figured out his tendencies. and beat on him.
yes he was good and a basic player but at the same time, with sonic, more than any other character, once you fall into any kind of pattern you lose. simple as that. and thats why we have the ATs. so that we have more options to be unpredictable with. but at the same time, if you spinshot 50 times per match, youre going to jump into a fully charged aurasphrere like those lucario scrubs were talking about earlier.

TL;dr: use every possible move AT adn option to be as unpredictable as possible

 

[Espy Rose]

btw, he uses snake and D3 more than sonic these days. and do you know why, i do.

its because his playstyle (along with most sonics) was learned, and he started getting predicatable because people figured out his tendencies. and beat on him.
yes he was good and a basic player but at the same time, with sonic, more than any other character, once you fall into any kind of pattern you lose. simple as that. and thats why we have the ATs. so that we have more options to be unpredictable with. but at the same time, if you spinshot 50 times per match, youre going to jump into a fully charged aurasphrere like those lucario scrubs were talking about earlier.

TL;dr: use every possible move AT adn option to be as unpredictable as possible

Source on that? I live near 3000, and many people that play him inform me that he's mostly Sonic.

Also, what you said in your second paragraph applies to pretty much everyone.

 

[Tenki]

wasn't there another 3000 who uses Dedede, and then Mr. 3000 who uses Sonic, or something like that?

 

[Browny]

that was a ZSS/Falco main

 

[JMan8891]

If what you say is indeed true KID, its news to me. Personally, its double-edged. Too many (for lack of a better word) nubz want to know what the AT are, and they get all caught up in it "Zomg! My air speed while spinshotting is like my uber runspeed! I pwn now!" and they get severly owned. Im in the school of though that AT are actually advanced tools. They enable more options, less predictability, and when coupled with general game skill (I.E: what you can likley do with an alternate such as... landing a smash?) it makes you that much better.

 

[ROOOOY!]

The most techical I am is really shield cancelling spins.
IMO spinshot should be used sparingly and is situational, so I often don't use it unless it's necessary to get past spam or whatever.

 

[infomon]

"Zomg! My air speed while spinshotting is like my uber runspeed! I pwn now!" and they get severly owned.

Yep! That sums up how I play Sonic quite nicely

 

[Napilopez]

IMO spinshot should be used sparingly and is situational

Unless you're Boxob.

=P

 

[Boxob]

Psh, I don't spin shot THAT much.

Maybe a little.

 

[JMan8891]

Lol, it you may as well force dub its title to "Box-shot" Boxob, xD
BTW... did you ever upload that steak photo?

 

[Boxob]

Hmm, well I did make the original thread for it.

IT MUST BE MY TECHNIQUE.

Boxlaunch? Boxshot? I think Boxlaunching sounds fancy, we'll call it that.

Lol, boxed lunch.

 

[darkNES386]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oQW0wXS57Q8 <--- lol... this was six minute match. How embarrassing to think we once played like that.

I count at least 10 whiffed fsmashes by us.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Sonic has a below average Fsmash so its gonna be whiffed.

 

[Boxob]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oQW0wXS57Q8 <--- lol... this was six minute match. How embarrassing to think we once played like that.

I count at least 10 whiffed fsmashes by us.

That was just silly. Lulz.

 

[Kyuubi9t]

.__.;

It's been kinda distressing to see Sonic board participation in inter-board matchup discussions, and it reared its ugly head in the (thank goodness it's locked)... Sonic's Tier Placement thread.

Sonic Sucks
omggmgg but u mainz sonic!!? u maed me disbeliv in tierz wen i plaed u!

I'm going to quote/re-fix something I put elsewhere.

Sonic:
+ can attack/airdodge/fsj out of up-B
+ invincibility frames on side-B (hop) release
+ side-B, aerial down-B are cancellable into shield
+ Fast run (full length of FD in a little over 1 second?!) for baiting, punishing, and avoiding attacks.
+ Good grab game (pummels, 'chase' throws, etc)
+ Comboability out of spindash and/or springs.
+ One of the most versatile foxtrots in game
+ Can attain temporary 'run speed' in the air via spinshot.
- Kill moves have generally low knockback and speed
- Low aerial acceleration (doesn't change directions easily)
- Low range on many moves (N-air, Jab, F-air, Spindashes)
- Spindash can be outprioritized or grabbed out of, due to its low range.
- Homing Attack has punishable ending lag and an exploitable trajectory.
- If spaced incorrectly, it's possible to get grabbed out of spring.
- Most moves are multi-hit with low damages per hit (easy to outprioritize)

I bolded things that affect or are put into use in most Sonic mains' gameplay. I highlighted what are, IMO, the major affecting factors of Sonic's gameplay.

I then proceeded to strike out things that factor more into mindgames/player ability.

Red text is stuff that we bring up often to support Sonic gameplay, but are written off.

now, the list, without all the crossouts.



Don't get me wrong, Sonic has tools a good player can have a field day with, but the problem is that most of his 'objective' character traits... aren't good.

In matchup discussions, bait+punish don't count. Avoiding projectiles... apparently doesn't count either. Doesn't it seem unfair? Doesn't it make you want to go superfanboy lvl3 and sonic pawnch someone?

Too bad. You can't change matchups or tier lists with that. Accept it. Spread it.


;__; baww now we're going to throw steak at you!



Quoted from the tier list post itself.

Wut iz ur point?

And another quote.


Point?

Be a better player.
There isn't an AT that, when learned, suddenly gives you 50 rings and bam, you're killing people with Sonic, when you were suiciding and getting OHKO'd just 2 games before.

All that stuff that got crossed out in the first list? You can't bring it up in matchup discussions, and it sure as heck didn't change his tier placement. But... Take as much advantage of it as you can. Matchup discussions can be as objective as they can be and still not reflect actual gameplay. Baww Wario can get standing infinite'd by tall characters! But it doesn't change how a good Wario can be almost impossible to grab when it comes to actual gameplay. Everyone can discard Ike's F-air, F-smash, etc, but when it comes to actual gameplay, well, you don't want to be the first Marth in this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yeOv-sBtBig

That said, join the bandwagon, tell people Sonic sucks. Go to matchup discussions and tell people about how much Sonic sucks and tell them how to counter standalone moves.

But when it comes down to actual gameplay, mind**** them. Outread, outmanuever, outplay.

Learn to player.

hey man, well received! This is the essense of Sonic in a single thread.

 

[RenegadeRaven]

Nice job Tenki very inspirational.

 

[aeghrur]

hey man, well received! This is the essense of Sonic in a single thread.

Memphis moment:
Why the hell are you here?

 

[Tenki]

Tenki's guide to learning Sonic!

hwo 2 train? p1.
1- Look at the [ B ]-button. DON'T USE IT FOR ANYTHING EXCEPT RECOVERY.
2- Play friendlies with people.
3- ??? [+pain]
4- Profit
You can use that profit to buy your winning steak or whatever.
But it's a pretty cool idea.
Screw using specials and AT's for now - there's a sufficient amount of stuff to vary your game later on.

Learn to use the non-B moves, and it'll make you a better Sonic user. lol.

Have fun with that. lol.

 

[Chis]

hwo 2 train? p1.

1- Look at the B-button. DON'T USE IT FOR ANYTHING EXCEPT RECOVERY.
2- Play friendlies with people.
3- ???
4- Profit

Hmm ...

 

[Tenki]

I edited it.

 

[Espy Rose]

hwo 2 train? p1.
1- Look at the [ B ]-button. DON'T USE IT FOR ANYTHING EXCEPT RECOVERY.
2- Play friendlies with people.
3- ??? [+pain]
4- Profit
You can use that profit to buy your winning steak or whatever.
But it's a pretty cool idea.
Screw using specials and AT's for now - there's a sufficient amount of stuff to vary your game later on.

Learn to use the non-B moves, and it'll make you a better Sonic user. lol.

Have fun with that. lol.

This.

In all seriousness, I've started to resort back to basics for everything Sonic related, and my spacing is improving little by little, as well as my timing on basic attacks.

The only two AT's I do anymore in friendlies are the DAC and Spinshot.

Played a friend in a few matches on Saturday, and I found that just dashing back and forth and weaving around is incredibly fun, AND screws with their heads.

It's too good. I want to experiment with this in tournament level play.

That, and I need to focus more on spacing/timing.

 

[Tenki]

The main point here, is that Fox is typically a reaction character. And this sounds worse than it is. He is one of the best at punishing moves or predictable gameplay. You ask for safe approaches, I can give just a few of them... so basically, yeah, he lacks a bit... but his whole game is centered around forcing something he can beat and beating it very harshly, whether this entails a roll, spot dodge, SH fair, or shuttle loop... if Fox guesses it, you have a serious problem.

Add to that his blaster, which is almost an auto-refill for his smash attacks and you have a powerful threat.

Against completely flawless and unpredictable play, Fox would have trouble... but that's never been seen...even in all the years of Melee, the game was about guessing your opponent out.

It's understandable the wanting Fox to have viable pokes and approaches, but be sure that you do not only measure him on that. In any form of reasonable play, both players will make mistakes, and Fox will usually have the better end of punishing them. He has a lot of options for creating these openings...and several decent approaches of his own...like SH Nair landing behind a shield... which place him higher than he is now.

...But this limitation of mostly only punishing, may be the thing that will keep Fox out of top tier...You can't be so sure about high tier, though - Fox has the ability to make everything count.

~~~


"Ghengis Kahn should have never won his battles."

From a Fox thread.

So ironic, so ironic.

edits:
- Replace blaster with grab+pummel
- Replace punishing hard with... punishing not so hard.

but still. lol.

 

[Espy Rose]

From a Fox thread.

So ironic, so ironic.

edits:
- Replace blaster with grab+pummel
- Replace punishing hard with... punishing not so hard.

but still. lol.

So ironic, like a chronic Sonic that had a bit too much tonic.

and avoided the bubonic...plague.
Not even a deadly, middle-age, species extinguishing disease can catch up to Sonic.

Hedgehogs > Rats

 

[darkNES386]

Tenki... are you telling me you only use B when recovering? I find that very hard to believe . I think you should quickly establish how much you can get away with spin specials in a match and then quickly lower your usage of it as necessary. Yes, most players though (myself included, as I said in D's thread) use it too much.

 

[Tenki]

Tenki... are you telling me you only use B when recovering? I find that very hard to believe . I think you should quickly establish how much you can get away with spin specials in a match and then quickly lower your usage of it as necessary. Yes, most players though (myself included, as I said in D's thread) use it too much.

I didn't say I actually did it.

But that is the suggested 'best plan' to learning Sonic correctly.

Learn moveset > become comfortable with A attacks > add specials.

I'm more like

Discover crap > spread it > wait for someone to pick it up > maybe not > learn moveset > become comfortable with A attacks [wip]

 

[InterimOfZeal]

Hay guize, footstool combo=dead Olimar. Dsmash sends him at an angle he's never coming back from.

 

[Napilopez]

Hay guize, footstool combo=dead Olimar. Dsmash sends him at an angle he's never coming back from.

Hmm? What do you mean Mr Zealy? Do you mean footstool, then land, then Dsmash? Kinda confused XD.

I need any help against Oli's I can get.

EDIT:

BTW... who here agrees that Tenki should eventually be accepted into the SBR? =P