Why someone should be an Echo VS Alt

Koopaul

Smash Lord
Joined
Oct 29, 2013
Messages
1,668
#1
I don't know if this has bee a topic before but it's something I've been thinking about. We have Echo fighters who are only slightly different from their counterpart. And we have Alts which are exactly the same right down to every little animation. So what makes some characters worthy of being an Echo Fighter while others are just alts? Back when Smash 3DS/Wii U was out, I was annoyed by Dark Pit. "Why wasn't he just an alt?" I questioned. But the more I thought about it, the more I realized he couldn't be. Regular Pit's taunts were too cheerful and heroic for Dark Pit. It wouldn't look right. Then you had Pit's Final Smash: Three Sacred Treasures, which wouldn't seem right for Dark Pit either.

I realized that was the key factor. A character should only be an alt if they have the exact same abilities/equipment and would look right sharing the same animations. It's why Dry Bowser would be perfect for an alt since all of Bowser moves and taunts would work for Dry Bowser as well. And it's why Daisy shouldn't be an alt for Peach since Peach's idle and taunts are too dainty for the more sporty princess. It just wouldn't look right.

I want to talk about Bowser Jr. and the Koopalings. Normally I would say that there would be no way that the Koopaling should be alt of Junior or of each other. But because they are all fighting in the Clown Car things check out a little better. The taunts seem to be generic enough that any Koopaling could do them too. The one thing that doesn't work is the Final Smash: Shadow Mario. Why on earth did they choose this for the Final Smash? It's something only Bowser Jr. could do. And Sakurai even used the excuse that Dark Pit couldn't be an alt because of the Three Sacred Treasures. Alph is also a problem, because he is an alt he flies Olimar's ship, the S.S. Dolphin. I suppose the ship could change model along with Alph. But I feel like every echo fighter had a minor excuse to have them be an echo and not an alt. So that should apply to Alph and the Dolphin.

Finally there's Simon and Richter. The more I think about it the more I realize that Richter could have just been an alt like Alph. None of Simon's taunts or animations contradict Richter's personality. And aside from their Holy Water having different elemental properties and having different taunts (which aren't even that much different), everything else about them is the same.

In conclusion I think that Alph should've been an Echo and Richter should've been an alt. But what do you think? What do think makes something a candidate for echo and what characters are suited to be an alt?
 
Last edited:

osby

Smash Legend
Joined
Apr 25, 2018
Messages
14,126
#2
I think if it's possible, every character should be their own fighter. The more the merrier.

If possible, make :ultalph: an echo. If not, we're good. I don't see how anyone gains anything by reducing echoes into alts.
 

Koopaul

Smash Lord
Joined
Oct 29, 2013
Messages
1,668
#4
I think if it's possible, every character should be their own fighter. The more the merrier.

If possible, make :ultalph: an echo. If not, we're good. I don't see how anyone gains anything by reducing echoes into alts.
Development time and CSS space (although you can stack echoes on top of their repective fighter). If you can have the character properly represented through an alt then that seems like a great way to squeeze in more fighters. Look at Hero. That fighter is an easy way to get 4 distinct heroes from Dragon Quest in Smash all at once.

I personally don't see what Richter gained by being an echo. Daisy was able to have her sporty personality by being an echo. Dark Samus was able to have a floating run, creepy animations, and Phazon effects. Chrom got his famous Aether and Great Aether attack. But what did Richter gain by being an echo? And what would he lose if he wasn't? Would it really make that much of a difference if he was an alt constume? He'd still have his unique voice clips. The announcer would still say "Richter Wins!" Not much would change if Richter was an alt.

Now that he's an echo, he's an echo. And I'm not suggesting that he should be turned into an alt. I'm just questioning why they went and did that to begin with.

Anyway, Hero proves that "the more the merrier" can still be applicable to alts. And being an alt should be considered a fine way to play as extra characters (like the Koopalings too). The only reason I make a case for Alph being an echo is because being an alt doesn't work. I think Alph was a prime candidate for being an echo. He has something important that sets him apart from Olimar for him to be an alt, and yet he is one.
 
Last edited:

Xelrog

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 24, 2019
Messages
941
Location
Battle Ground, WA
Switch FC
SW 2367 4933 3404
#7
Does Richter not have unique animations? He and Simon seem to carry themselves pretty differently, I thought. Though honestly I don't different animations is enough to merit an echo. Even echoes should have at least one noticeable gameplay difference, like Marth and Lucina. A simple stat tweak is all it takes.

If it's just animations they should just make them alts. Who says alts need to share animations? Keep them programmed internally as separate characters if need be and shove them onto the same character space. Animations alone aren't worth a screen slot.
 

Opossum

Thread Title Changer
GRimer
Joined
Aug 10, 2011
Messages
30,374
Location
This Thread
3DS FC
4742-4911-3431
NNID
OpossumGuy
Switch FC
SW 2859 6322 5208
#8
Does Richter not have unique animations? He and Simon seem to carry themselves pretty differently, I thought. Though honestly I don't different animations is enough to merit an echo. Even echoes should have at least one noticeable gameplay difference, like Marth and Lucina. A simple stat tweak is all it takes.

If it's just animations they should just make them alts. Who says alts need to share animations? Keep them programmed internally as separate characters if need be and shove them onto the same character space. Animations alone aren't worth a screen slot.
It's because animation differences, if they're drastic enough, can alter hit boxes, technically making them a gameplay difference. That's why alts don't have different animations.
 

Koopaul

Smash Lord
Joined
Oct 29, 2013
Messages
1,668
#9
Exactly. Victory poses don't matter though since they have nothing to do with gameplay. That's why Inkling and Pokémon Trainer can have slightly different victory animations.
 

Xelrog

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 24, 2019
Messages
941
Location
Battle Ground, WA
Switch FC
SW 2367 4933 3404
#10
It's because animation differences, if they're drastic enough, can alter hit boxes, technically making them a gameplay difference. That's why alts don't have different animations.
I understand that, and it's still not worth an echo. Let them share a space, and if you don't like that one character's taunt makes you ever so slightly more vulnerable, don't use it.

It's such a small difference that it wouldn't even make consideration on a tier list, just as several of the current echoes don't.
 
Last edited:

Koopaul

Smash Lord
Joined
Oct 29, 2013
Messages
1,668
#11
It can make a difference. And there's also idle animation differences and run animation differences. Daisy's run. And idle is different and therefor there are some slight hitbox differences as a result.

Richter, however, has literally no differences outside taunts. And those taunts are basically variations on Simon's taunts. He doesn't have a different idle, he doesn't have a different run, jump, or anything. He is the closest to an alt than any other echo fighter. And I was just saying, it really wouldn't have made much of a difference in Richter's case if he was just an alt. In fact, the only reason why I'd prefer it is if Simon was like Hero and you could play as a few different Belmonts.
 

Koopaul

Smash Lord
Joined
Oct 29, 2013
Messages
1,668
#13
Yes but so do alts. The male and female Pokemon Trainer have different voices. Bowser Jr and the Koopalings do too. Wii Fit Trainer, Corrin, Robin, and even Ike.

Having different sounds is fine for an alt, it litterally comes down to animations and hitboxes.
 
Joined
Feb 8, 2014
Messages
4,133
Location
Australia
#16
Yeah, thinking about it, they probably should have gone the Hero route with Castlevania and make a "Belmont" character. Simon, Richter, Trevor and some other one.
 

Arcanir

An old friend evolved
Joined
Jul 8, 2013
Messages
5,250
Location
Getting geared up for the 20th
3DS FC
4253-4855-5860
NNID
Shoryu91
#17
Honestly, the victory animations show why the two Belmonts likely weren't merged. Richter has a clear distinctive personality from Simon and vice versa and slapping one over the other would remove what makes them stand out outside of design. Even the taunts, while similar, still give that distinction as all three of Richter's are direct references to his game appearances such as the 'It's time!' taunt being a reference to Rondo of Blood's cover art. So there is a level of individuality that is kept even at a minor level, and an alt probably wouldn't have carried it over as well as the Echo treatment did.

If anything, I would rather Richter be given more distinctive animations and they upgrade Alph rather then trade off and downgrade the former. Both are characters that benefit from what an Echo offers in terms of uniqueness, not downgrading them to Simon/Olimar with different voice clips.
 

Guybrush20X6

Smash Legend
Premium
Joined
May 22, 2012
Messages
13,201
3DS FC
4253-3477-4804
NNID
Guybrush20X6
Switch FC
SW-2140-7758-3904
#18
Thinking about some other characters who could be Echos instead of alts

Crash/Coco Bandicoots: Coco does a spin kick instead of her brother's iconic Tasmanian Devil impersonation.
Zelda/Hilda: Hilda's mood is more in line with the more solem Zeldas of the 3D games so could reuse the old animations.
Luigi/Gooigi: Like Dark Pit, it wouldn't make canonical sense for his to have fireballs as he's weak to fire.
 

Koopaul

Smash Lord
Joined
Oct 29, 2013
Messages
1,668
#20
Yeah, thinking about it, they probably should have gone the Hero route with Castlevania and make a "Belmont" character. Simon, Richter, Trevor and some other one.
Possibly Christopher Belmont.
Not exactly. Richter's Holy Water doesn't have a fire effect unlike Simon's.
True but I was more refering to animations. The lack of a fire effect to his Holy Water wasn't exactly vital to Richter as a character character, unlike Alph's ship.
 
Joined
Jul 28, 2013
Messages
6,269
Location
Infinite Glacier
#21
Alph would be great with Rock Pikmin and eyes that can blink. Rock Pikmin would be like Purple Pikmin I guess, but they can't die from attacks like Bowser's and Yoshi's ground pound or Jigglypuff's Roll Out.

They could also add his and Olimar's voices.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Aug 29, 2018
Messages
942
#22
Unlike with the Dragon Quest protagonists, who are largely devoid of too much personality and are silent, each of the Belmonts has their own flair for how they go about their mission and quite a few of them talk. So I don't think a Koopaling situation would have been possible with Simon where 7 of his color slots were each a different character because it would rob them all of their individuality.

I also don't think anyone should be given the Alph treatment, so no, Richter shouldn't just be an alt of Simon. Poor Alph needs to be an Echo Fighter already.
 
Last edited:

Koopaul

Smash Lord
Joined
Oct 29, 2013
Messages
1,668
#23
I'd argue the same can be said for the Koopalings. Each one has their own flair as well. And yes I know that Simon and Richter have different personalities in their games, but boy did Smash not help in that department. Like I said before, in terms of animations Simon and Richter are barely different in Smash. It's pretty much their victory animations that really set them apart.

If you are worried about the Belmonts being robbed of individuality then Smash has already done that.
 
Last edited:

JDCabrera

Smash Legend
Joined
Oct 14, 2018
Messages
13,365
Location
An island
NNID
Wakagoodbiehello
Switch FC
SW-0890-1538-2701
#24
Honestly, while it would be amazing to have Eight/Guv as an echo fighter instead of a Hero alt, I understand that the choice Sakurai made was the only possibility for this title.

Yeah, it would be amazing to see more characters get in as echoes instead of alts (Alph could even use Rock Pikmin that way)... But if it wasn't for alts I wouldn't have my most wanted besides Crash Bandicoot in.
 

Koopaul

Smash Lord
Joined
Oct 29, 2013
Messages
1,668
#25
Well like I said in my first post, I kind of feel like there needs to be a reason why a character should be an echo. Something that one character should/shouldn't do that the other doesn't/does.

For example, Dry Bowser. I've seen many people ask for him as an echo. But I don't understand why. Bowser and Dry Bowser are identical aside from an aesthetic change. There's nothing Bowser does that Dry Bowser couldn't do. Dry Bowser could be an alt and still be faithful to his appearances in his own games.
 

JDCabrera

Smash Legend
Joined
Oct 14, 2018
Messages
13,365
Location
An island
NNID
Wakagoodbiehello
Switch FC
SW-0890-1538-2701
#26
Well like I said in my first post, I kind of feel like there needs to be a reason why a character should be an echo. Something that one character should/shouldn't do that the other doesn't/does.

For example, Dry Bowser. I've seen many people ask for him as an echo. But I don't understand why. Bowser and Dry Bowser are identical aside from an aesthetic change. There's nothing Bowser does that Dry Bowser couldn't do. Dry Bowser could be an alt and still be faithful to his appearances in his own games.
That is true, tbh.

I feel that Eight/Guv was made into an alt just because of the lack at the team regarding any other choices for Ultimate.

Mostly since he has enough stuff for an own moveset such as Munchie or his transformation.
 

osby

Smash Legend
Joined
Apr 25, 2018
Messages
14,126
#27
Well like I said in my first post, I kind of feel like there needs to be a reason why a character should be an echo. Something that one character should/shouldn't do that the other doesn't/does.
Why? It gives both characters more small stuff like alts and animations and it doesn't have a significant development cost.

I can't help but think it's a very arbitrary and unnecessary standart.
 

JDCabrera

Smash Legend
Joined
Oct 14, 2018
Messages
13,365
Location
An island
NNID
Wakagoodbiehello
Switch FC
SW-0890-1538-2701
#28
Why? It gives both characters more small stuff like alts and animations and it doesn't have a significant development cost.

I can't help but think it's a very arbitrary and unnecessary standart.
I think I see where you are coming from.

There can be some cases where an echo could work without really needing to stand out from the other character.

Some examples that may come to my mind are the idea of a DQ Heroine echo fighter or Mach Rider as a Captain Falcon one.
 

Koopaul

Smash Lord
Joined
Oct 29, 2013
Messages
1,668
#29
Why? It gives both characters more small stuff like alts and animations and it doesn't have a significant development cost.

I can't help but think it's a very arbitrary and unnecessary standart.
Then would you be okay if every Koopaling was their own echo fighter?
 

osby

Smash Legend
Joined
Apr 25, 2018
Messages
14,126
#31
Then would you be okay if every Koopaling was their own echo fighter?
Comparing an echo fighter with seven of them seems like a hyperbole than anything.

I get it if you want Koopalings or Alph to be their own characters but it's not a great reason to make Richter an alt.
 

JDCabrera

Smash Legend
Joined
Oct 14, 2018
Messages
13,365
Location
An island
NNID
Wakagoodbiehello
Switch FC
SW-0890-1538-2701
#32
Comparing an echo fighter with seven of them seems like a hyperbole than anything.

I get it if you want Koopalings or Alph to be their own characters but it's not a great reason to make Richter an alt.
Yeah, Richter is perfect as an echo fighter.
 

Koopaul

Smash Lord
Joined
Oct 29, 2013
Messages
1,668
#33
Yeah, Richter is perfect as an echo fighter.
I would normally agree. But Smash Ultimate did very little to separate him from Simon. That's what I'm saying. I was actually pretty excited to play as both Simon and Richter. Then I was hugely disappointed to find that Richter was the least different echo of them all (in terms of animations) and so I asked "What was the point?" If you are going to make someone an echo, do something with it.

Richter should be perfect as an echo but he's not. And if you aren't really going to do much to make the two different then they might as well be an alt. That is the crux of my argument. Not that I believe Richter should have always been an alt, because I don't. I just think that how they made him in Ultimate he is pretty much an alt already.
 
Last edited:

Wiziliz

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Sep 6, 2018
Messages
435
#35
Is everyone trying to pretend Richter's down special doesn't work differently to Simon's?
Simon is the character for Belmont mains to pick against Link, Richter is the character for Belmont mains to play against Olimar.
Though I prefer to just go with Simon no matter the matchup, haha.
 

Xelrog

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 24, 2019
Messages
941
Location
Battle Ground, WA
Switch FC
SW 2367 4933 3404
#36
Is everyone trying to pretend Richter's down special doesn't work differently to Simon's?
Simon is the character for Belmont mains to pick against Link, Richter is the character for Belmont mains to play against Olimar.
Though I prefer to just go with Simon no matter the matchup, haha.
Why would Simon be preferable against Link? Does fire have some effect on him that aura doesn't?
 

Quillion

Smash Master
Joined
Sep 17, 2014
Messages
3,254
#38
I'll just plug that I wish OoT and/or TP Link got something. I think they're solid echo material given that Smash 4 Link's animations can be recycled and tweaked a bit, but alts would be tolerable since BotW Link can cosplay as them.

Somehow, we don't get as much as a spirit of them.
 

Xelrog

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 24, 2019
Messages
941
Location
Battle Ground, WA
Switch FC
SW 2367 4933 3404
#39
I'll just plug that I wish OoT and/or TP Link got something. I think they're solid echo material given that Smash 4 Link's animations can be recycled and tweaked a bit, but alts would be tolerable since BotW Link can cosplay as them.

Somehow, we don't get as much as a spirit of them.
They're present in costume form. Honestly if any Zelda character is going to have old versions as alts, Link (or any version of him) is the last one I care about. Zelda and Ganondorf's differences in design between games is way more noticeable. I'd kill to have TP Zelda back, or TP Ganondorf. I'm sad that Ike gets both versions but Dorf doesn't. Wind Waker Dorf would be amazing but that wouldn't be too fitting considering his fighting style and proportions. TP Zelda also sadly isn't realistic as an alt because the way she carries herself is so very different from the current Zelda and her animations.
 

Quillion

Smash Master
Joined
Sep 17, 2014
Messages
3,254
#40
They're present in costume form.
Are you talking about the Wild Tunic and its palette swaps? Because, especially considering how much work was put into DQ Hero...


Also, it doesn't help that the Wild Tunic itself is ugly as sin.

Honestly if any Zelda character is going to have old versions as alts, Link (or any version of him) is the last one I care about. Zelda and Ganondorf's differences in design between games is way more noticeable. I'd kill to have TP Zelda back, or TP Ganondorf. I'm sad that Ike gets both versions but Dorf doesn't. Wind Waker Dorf would be amazing but that wouldn't be too fitting considering his fighting style and proportions. TP Zelda also sadly isn't realistic as an alt because the way she carries herself is so very different from the current Zelda and her animations.
Definitely agree with TP Ganondorf being an alt. He still has the same personality and everything; just swap his voice and he's good. His sword might be problematic since the Six Sages' Sword is clearly slimmer and lighter than the Spaceworld sword, but I don't think it's a big deal.

Maybe TP/OoT Zelda can be a Richter-level Echo with their different animations, but TP/OoT Link and BotW Link have wildly different animations as well as some different mechanics entirely: TP/OoT Link is left-handed, has a hookshot, and has classic bombs, BotW Link is right-handed, has a regular grab, has remote bombs, and the double arrow mechanic. That's at least a Ken-level echo there.

It wouldn't even take them much work to implement TP/OoT Link. Ultimate's engine was designed to easily accept everything from all of the previous games. All they have to do is port over the Smash 4 data, maybe adapt a few from Young Link, tweak them, and they're done. They were smart enough to not be like Game Freak and redo everything from scratch due to lack of foresight in model porting.
 
Top