Why Little Mac Shouldnt Be Low Tier

Birdygamer

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#1
I've had smash ultimate for a few months now and I feel that Little Mac deserves so credit. Now, I haven't been able to play online due to my weak Wi-Fi so I'm forced to do solo. In my opinion through gameplay and the videos ive seen, Little Mac is a good fighter. He has good speed and power and a powerful ground game, I literally have seen him take on linking whose been a high tier character and actually win. I know that its still early for tier lists and stuff but I nonetheless feel that if a Little Mac main were to take advantage of Little Mac's tilts and counter, they should achieve results.

:ultlittlemac:
 

Isaac4

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#2
The thing is, even if he can do good against Inkling, tier lists are based on all matchups. If one character had a good matchup with Cloud in smash 4 that still wouldnt be enough to make them top tier as you have to see every other matchup. He's regarded as low tier because recoveries are generally good for most characters and the top tiers and high tiers all have lots of projectiles, are fast, have decent recoveries, or have attacks with long range which is all things little mac does not to do good against. Of course, there's always patches which can improve him but for now he's definitely not amazing.
 

Buuhan

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#3
Imo I think he deserves. D/F Tier. He really isn’t that good because of his recovery, he can get demolished by a good jigglypuff, Kirby, or any decent off stage fighter that can yeet him off stage and keep him off. His air game is also really bad.
 
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Xelrog

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#4
They're adding more and more characters with garbage nothing recoveries, so either they'll all be sharing space at the bottom of the list or Mac will be higher up by extension of other no-recovery characters being worse.

I don't think anyone's going to consider him worse than the Belmonts, though, who seem to be doing all right in public opinion despite their no recovery. And yes, I know about the tether. No, it's not enough to make a difference.
 
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#5
Little Mac's recovery is a tad better with directional air-dodge, but it's still poor and he lacks decent aerials. He's a good example of a poorly designed character. If there is to be any balance, Little Mac needs more range for side special, his aerials need to be decent, and his smash attacks need to lack armor of any kind.

Xelrog Xelrog
With such good offensive tools, recovering is not an issue if the Belmonts control the stage. This is why I think the trade-off is lopsided. Cross knocks the opponent in the air. F-tilt does the same. Down tilt does as well. I loathe the Belmonts and wish for nothing more than their demise.
 
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Xelrog

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#6
Little Mac's recovery is a tad better with directional air-dodge, but it's still poor and he lacks decent aerials. He's a good example of a poorly designed character. If there is to be any balance, Little Mac needs more range for side special, his aerials need to be decent, and his smash attacks need to lack armor of any kind.
You're confusing "balance" with "homogenization." Or in layman's terms, just making him like everybody else.

I don't think his ground-only gimmick is a lost cause at all. We may find out he still needs some tweaks, but to abandon it? That's just quitter's talk.
 
D

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#7
Im sorry but Little mac is Bottom tier [Worst character in the game if Kirby didn't exist]
His lack of aerials and horrid recovery does him in.
 
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#8
You're confusing "balance" with "homogenization." Or in layman's terms, just making him like everybody else.

I don't think his ground-only gimmick is a lost cause at all. We may find out he still needs some tweaks, but to abandon it? That's just quitter's talk.
Nope. You can't make a character already have a strong ground game and then some. I also didn't say anything about abandoning Little Mac's ground game. As for "quitter's talk", uh, what?
 

Qualudes

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#9
I think Mac probably falls somewhere in mid-tier towards the bottom of that group; definitely not worst character in the game, but certainly not a tournament pick. I would argue that his biggest weakness is not his recovery, but his lack of any tool for dealing with zone control. The prolific volume of snakes, belmonts, etc. online that can simply win neutral by pushing special is a real problem for him especially when you can't guarantee a favorable stage, i.e. battlefield or other stages with platforms to escape to.
 

Birdygamer

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#10
I think Mac probably falls somewhere in mid-tier towards the bottom of that group; definitely not worst character in the game, but certainly not a tournament pick. I would argue that his biggest weakness is not his recovery, but his lack of any tool for dealing with zone control. The prolific volume of snakes, belmonts, etc. online that can simply win neutral by pushing special is a real problem for him especially when you can't guarantee a favorable stage, i.e. battlefield or other stages with platforms to escape to.
Wait, you don't think he's the worst character? Then who is?
 

Qualudes

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#12
Wait, you don't think he's the worst character? Then who is?
I just got Mac to Elite and after playing him for probably 20 hours I believe he is severely underrated. I would amend my previous post by saying that Mac does have tools for dealing with zone heavy characters, but they are sort of janky. His air speed is deceptively good and can aid in crossing up projectile based characters with empty-hops, and his counter is great for beating projectiles if well spaced.

As for who I think the worst character in the game is? I really couldn't tell you. I have never fought a truly amazing bowser jr. but is he the worst in the game? No idea. I just really doubt that Mac is the worst.
 

Gamer Cube

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#14
I just got Mac to Elite and after playing him for probably 20 hours I believe he is severely underrated. I would amend my previous post by saying that Mac does have tools for dealing with zone heavy characters, but they are sort of janky. His air speed is deceptively good and can aid in crossing up projectile based characters with empty-hops, and his counter is great for beating projectiles if well spaced.

As for who I think the worst character in the game is? I really couldn't tell you. I have never fought a truly amazing bowser jr. but is he the worst in the game? No idea. I just really doubt that Mac is the worst.
I agree with you on all the points you said there. Of course, he isn't the best at tournament play, but people don't recognize how strong he is. He doesn't have much combo game and his aerials are basically the worst in the game, but his ground game more than makes up for it. I play Ganondorf a little bit, and if you use principles from his playstyle such as predicting movement and planning each and every hit, he is an EXTREMELY fast character with armored smash attacks that come out faster than some people's tilts. His recovery has been buffed, and it is somehow better than some characters' recovery.
I play a ton of games with my friend who is a Dedede main, and I can tell you that all you need is a good use of his counters and use rolls and spot dodges rather than shield. His smash attacks do a ton of damage and you can mix up your play with his side special and rapid jab. He is a glass cannon, so all you have to do is not get hit. There is definitely promise in the new and improved Little Mac, and he is definitely not F tier anymore, in my opinion.

Btw, this is one of my first posts, so I might not have the best writing style.
 
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#15
Little Mac is definitely the worst character in the game. He gets absolutely bodied by maybe 80% of the cast. Sure he has a few good matchups but it doesn't matter due to his ****ty air game and recovery. In a game such as ultimate where aerials are very integral to the overall playstyle i dont think his ground game makes up for it. He has debatably the worst disadvantage in the game due to his horrible aerial mobility along with the fact he can barely land so juggling him is a piece of cake.
 

LightKnight

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#16
First off, I think its great that the balancing in this game is such that we have a hard time determining who the 'worst' character in the game is.

With that said, I think Little Mac is the worst… :nervous:
His recovery might be better than a couple select characters while having overwhelming ground game but I think his other huge weakness of an almost non-existant air-game really holds this character back. That doesn't necessarily mean his aerials need to be as effective as other characters but at least make them have a use. :ohwell:

If Little Mac isn't low tier then I don't imagine any other characters are low tier either which would be super cool. I don't think characters should be put in low tier just for the sake of filling empty space. If a character is mid tier thats a nice spot to start and can help people not feel they are playing a 'bad' character.
 

Qualudes

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#17
Feel free to think that B BossBabyInSmash , that is definitely the community consensus at this point, but I really doubt he's the worst character in the game. He has great combos and kill power but needs to be played defensively, and luckily he has great OOS options to compliment that. That said, he probably has the most polarizing matchup spread in the game with a likely 20/80 win/loss ratio against characters like Young Link , the Belmonts, Samus, and the rest of the pure-zone members of the cast. This makes him a perfectly valid secondary but definitely not a main. I agree with LightKnight LightKnight in his praise for the balance of the game; this is arguably the best launch of any Smash game in history as far as balance is concerned.
 

Qualudes

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#19
Great combos? They removed most of his combos from smash 4, also what's his good oos option?
He get's a lot of mileage out of utilt and dtilt on a lot of the cast, and his OOS options are Usmash and Up-B (obviously) depending on percent. I am not trying to place Mac somewhere above Mid-Tier, so I do not understand why you find my opinion so disdainful B BossBabyInSmash . I am a mediocre player at best and the fact that I can beat people with him with some regularity is a testament to the fact that he is not the worst character in the game. I do not think that he is an optimal pick for the competitive scene, but I also think the same can be said for 80% of the cast. My opinion is simply that this game is extremely well-balanced from a competitively-minded perspective, and that Mac while not a viable main is a perfectly viable secondary.

I also couldn't help but notice that you are a claimed Mac main in Ultimate, which leads me to believe that you are fully aware of the strengths of the character, so why are you asking me to rhetorically explain what the strengths of your main are?
 

Gamer Cube

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#21
Adding to my previous comment, at low percents, I don't know if it's a true combo, but if you stand still at the start, the second they start moving, dash up to them, to offset them, and you can chain up smashes up to like 50 percent and once you feel you're losing it, which is around 3 up smashes, you can up-b and it offsets the opponent for the whole match. I've done it a couple times and it works.

Edit: up tilt, not up smash. Sorry if you've been trying this!
 
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Blazeiken

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#22
Haha fools, little mac actually has "ok" (do not crucify me) air game, you can gimp people with your Aerials, especially FAir, and UAir actually can combo into UTilt and USmash if you can catch them on a platform. I've done it multiple times on Online and Tournaments. Honestly, if you completely stick with him as a main, you can definitely pull off a win in a tournament. He's a lot harder to play online due to lag, but LAN is just so much easier to pull off.

It's about your positioning, if you don't have good positioning, you'll get gimped or soak up combos. He isn't a rushdown character imo, he's a correcting your mistakes type of character, and since 99% of the people who play him don't realize this, they complain about his horrible recovery. You have to play him defensively and you'll succeed.
 

Gamer Cube

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#23
Haha fools, little mac actually has "ok" (do not crucify me) air game, you can gimp people with your Aerials, especially FAir, and UAir actually can combo into UTilt and USmash if you can catch them on a platform. I've done it multiple times on Online and Tournaments. Honestly, if you completely stick with him as a main, you can definitely pull off a win in a tournament. He's a lot harder to play online due to lag, but LAN is just so much easier to pull off.

It's about your positioning, if you don't have good positioning, you'll get gimped or soak up combos. He isn't a rushdown character imo, he's a correcting your mistakes type of character, and since 99% of the people who play him don't realize this, they complain about his horrible recovery. You have to play him defensively and you'll succeed.
I've noticed he is not an aggressive character. His combo game was reduced, and his knockback on his dash attack is too much to start anything from a dash. If you look at anyone in a tournament, they back off and wait until they counterattack. They rely on shielding and avoiding attacks until they can start a ridiculous chain of attacks, like a tilt combo into down-throw ub-b or hit their opponent with a heavy F-Smash, with kills at ridiculous percents. Who would've thought that the boxing character would have a play style similar to his game and other boxers? Playing on game of Punch-Out actually teaches you how to play Little Mac.

Btw, if you use your recovery right, it is actually better than most people think.
 
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SecretAsianMan

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#24
Personally, I belive that Mac is definetly Bottom 5 but not THE bottom. The characters I believe are worse are: Plant, and GnW.

Plant has many problems similar to mac, such as no real approach options and bad range on everything. What Mac Does have over plant is speed. Mac can at least approach by running on his fast tiny legs. Plant is kind of slow, and his approach moves kinda suck. Mac at least can armor projectiles with fsmash. Mac and plant share the same problem that their air game is out-classed by pretty much everyone else. Even if plant has a better recovery, this game is alot about edgeguarding anyway and on top of that his jumps don't go that high so plant is pretty limited to recovery anyway, and would end up in the same "repeat a boink until they die edgeguard" situation.

GnW has the other problems mac has: too light and almost always exposed. His rolls and techs are so goddamn slow, disjointed moves are either slow or crap range, you can literaly punch his Fair to cancel it, etc etc. His kill moves are really slow and has no way to combo into them. At least mac can Kill. However GnW's recovery is much harder to edgeguard than both plant and Little Mac so mabe GnW is above Mac, but I definetly think Plant is the worst

In any game with a roster like this someone has to be the best and someone has to be the worst, its just the way things are. At least all characters in this game are usable unlike other games (cough *Mortal Kombat* cough)
 
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$.A.F.

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#25
Personally, I belive that Mac is definetly Bottom 5 but not THE bottom. The characters I believe are worse are: Plant, and GnW.

Plant has many problems similar to mac, such as no real approach options and bad range on everything. What Mac Does have over plant is speed. Mac can at least approach by running on his fast tiny legs. Plant is kind of slow, and his approach moves kinda suck. Mac at least can armor projectiles with fsmash. Mac and plant share the same problem that their air game is out-classed by pretty much everyone else. Even if plant has a better recovery, this game is alot about edgeguarding anyway and on top of that his jumps don't go that high so plant is pretty limited to recovery anyway, and would end up in the same "repeat a boink until they die edgeguard" situation.

GnW has the other problems mac has: too light and almost always exposed. His rolls and techs are so goddamn slow, disjointed moves are either slow or crap range, you can literaly punch his Fair to cancel it, etc etc. His kill moves are really slow and has no way to combo into them. At least mac can Kill. However GnW's recovery is much harder to edgeguard than both plant and Little Mac so mabe GnW is above Mac, but I definetly think Plant is the worst

In any game with a roster like this someone has to be the best and someone has to be the worst, its just the way things are. At least all characters in this game are usable unlike other games (cough *Mortal Kombat* cough)
Difference is, you actually have to respect Plant in the air, and he has some stupid matchups with top 10 characters like Snake, Ness and Olimar. Also he can mix up His recovery. Game and Watch also at least does well against relevant characters like Snake. Also best OoS in the game.
 
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#26
I do think Mac is bottom.

When the first tip for any character is, jokingly or not, stand on the edge and backthrow, you know something is very wrong.

Add the fact that his side+b doesn’t refresh after being hit (by design, might I add) which is probably the only* character in the game with said flaw, then yeah, in my eyes these qualify him for bottom.

... but that’s not necessarily offensive. I mean Little Mac is the ultimate (no pun intended) underdog. I can accept that despite me doing really well as him online. Not by a landslide, but I still manage to win more than lose.

* Villager and Isabelle’s Up+B share the same “flaw” except their recoveries are polar opposites, and the AC duos must take 2 hits for this to happen.
 

Gamer Cube

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#27
I do think Mac is bottom.

When the first tip for any character is, jokingly or not, stand on the edge and backthrow, you know something is very wrong.

Add the fact that his side+b doesn’t refresh after being hit (by design, might I add) which is probably the only* character in the game with said flaw, then yeah, in my eyes these qualify him for bottom.

... but that’s not necessarily offensive. I mean Little Mac is the ultimate (no pun intended) underdog. I can accept that despite me doing really well as him online. Not by a landslide, but I still manage to win more than lose.

* Villager and Isabelle’s Up+B share the same “flaw” except their recoveries are polar opposites, and the AC duos must take 2 hits for this to happen.
Actually, with the addition of directional air dodge, his recovery was buffed from sm4sh. Also, back throwing launches them up, and Little Mac's recovery above the ledge is surprisingly good. Even if you do gimp him, though, he respawns center stage with invis, which is the best situation for a Little Mac. Ever since sm4sh, You really can't gimp mac with throws if he knows what he's doing.
 

Gamer Cube

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#28
Little Mac is definitely the worst character in the game. He gets absolutely bodied by maybe 80% of the cast. Sure he has a few good matchups but it doesn't matter due to his ****ty air game and recovery. In a game such as ultimate where aerials are very integral to the overall playstyle i dont think his ground game makes up for it. He has debatably the worst disadvantage in the game due to his horrible aerial mobility along with the fact he can barely land so juggling him is a piece of cake.
Honestly, man, this community isn't one where we just rage and diss our own mains XD. Little Mac may not be the best in the air, but may I mention he is a literal HUMAN BOXER. He obviously wouldn't be good at jumping off a ledge to hit his opponents into an abyss. He would however, be good at navigating the ground and punching people in the face. In short, don't diss the boxer for being a boxer.
 
D

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#29
The problem with Mac is that his core moveset design goes against Smash's general gameplay and strategies. His only positive is that he hits like a truck and is fast, but that means very little when all you gotta do is read/bait, poke him off the stage, and it's over.

Being good on the ground does nothing against a good shield or short-hop, things Mac can do nothing against. Mac is the worst Smash character viability wise, IMO.
 
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Gamer Cube

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#30
The problem with Mac is that his core moveset design goes against Smash's general gameplay and strategies. His only positive is that he hits like a truck and is fast, but that means very little when all you gotta do is read/bait, poke him off the stage, and it's over.

Being good on the ground does nothing against a good shield or short-hop, things Mac can do nothing against. Mac is the worst Smash character viability wise, IMO.
There are a lot of good things about Mac, you just haven't played a good one yet. He has great OoS options and a counter to go against short hops, and a good Mac will play conservative and not fall for most baits. and to counter shield, a downward f-smash will DECIMATE your shield and he can just down throw to up-b and then just juggle you for days. And shield does diddly squat about his KO punch. If you meet a good Mac, they will be reading/baiting you. If you think Little Mac sucks, I greatly encourage you to watch even one pro Little Mac match.
 
D

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#31
There are a lot of good things about Mac, you just haven't played a good one yet. He has great OoS options and a counter to go against short hops, and a good Mac will play conservative and not fall for most baits. and to counter shield, a downward f-smash will DECIMATE your shield and he can just down throw to up-b and then just juggle you for days. And shield does diddly squat about his KO punch. If you meet a good Mac, they will be reading/baiting you. If you think Little Mac sucks, I greatly encourage you to watch even one pro Little Mac match.
You're speaking as if Mac is indestructible. Everyone has a weakness in this game, and IMHO Mac's are by far the hardest hitting. Casual or lower level play is where Mac can potentially do well, but any character can in that scenario.

Mac can not:

-Recover
-Do literally anything in the air
-Has zero off-ledge options
-KO Punch is super predictable
-Has no options for neutral for characters that can out space him or poke him with projectiles

Not to mention spot dodge and simply jumping away from him takes care of any potential damage done to shield. Mac can't bait either because most would expect him to do that, knowing that trying to take people by surprise is one of the very few tools he has. People are gonna make you approach as Mac no matter what because they know that forcing you in that position already gives them an advantage. Mac also has no juggle game whatsoever on any stage with platforms, and even then it can be easily dealt with with a recovery mixup. Mac's only doing the things you're describing to someone who isn't playing the game well, which makes anyone look good.
 
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