Why Link needs to be nerfed

[shellshoked]

I have heard a lot of people calling for nerfs for Wolf,Peach,Pichu,etc, which I agree with, but I have seen nothing for Link so far. I believe that Link needs to be nerfed for one of main reason, there is very little counter play. If you are fighting against a link who likes to use melee attacks then your first reaction is to shield, but the moves that they usually spam, F smash, Up smash, and dash attack, do a ton of shield damage, and come out surprisingly fast. So then you try to run away and camp them out, but then they just start spamming arrows and bombs, and in a blind rage you throw your controller against the wall so you never have to play against a Link online again. The point is that Link has almost no weaknesses, besides recovery, but as a Ness main I know that after playing a character for a while recovery isn't really a problem. So you may be asking "how can we nerf link" well I believe that the best way to nerf him with out making him terrible ,because I don't want another Bayonetta situation is to nerf his shield damage, and maybe slightly nerf his frame data this way there is more counter play but the character still has his core values. If you disagree with me I don't blame you, (this is my first post on the website), so please tell me your opinions on the sunject

 

[Bobert]

Link's frame data is pretty mediocre except for nair. Hero's Spin is his fastest move at frame 7. His jab is slower than that, and his dash attack is one of the riskiest dash attacks in the game to throw out. You can usually dash back and dash back in when he whiffs, or f-air/up smash out of shield if he uses any smashes or dash attack. Link honestly gets completely smothered when somebody gets in on him because his attacks are so telegraphed and slow, which is why he's played at mid range mostly. I understand you're having a hard time with the matchup, but he doesn't need to be nerfed. He's considered to be sitting around bottom of high tier of top of mid currently. He excels at zoning and edge guarding, but he can get eaten alive by good jugglers and rushdown. Samus has multiple shield break combos and she still isn't that great, so I don't know why we should nerf Link for the same thing, but way worse because he gets punished so easily for throwing out those moves.

 

[USAnyan]

Links frame data is actually not that good, it only kinda feels that way because his swords basically a few steps away from being clouds so he has a lot more time to space.Weave in and out and you should be able to punish him. But yeah, Trust me young link is 20x worst in this regard

I do kinda wish however they made the attacks range of up b smaller, or at least matching with the animation better, because I swear that thing is a vacuum, more or less the same thing with up air and dair.

The only really other nerf I’d put is maybe make his million projectiles stale faster(something I think they should do universally to all characters tbh)

 

[CrusherMania1592]

Nah this is the best Link has ever been in any Smash game. There's no need to nerf him

 

[Aquamentii]

If you want to start a different discussion on how to defeat Link as Ness (or just in general), I'm totally behind you.
But I don't like the idea that because a character is good you want them nerfed.
You don't want to learn the matchup, so you want the game to learn it for you.

 

[Firox]

If you want to start a different discussion on how to defeat Link as Ness (or just in general), I'm totally behind you.
But I don't like the idea that because a character is good you want them nerfed.
You don't want to learn the matchup, so you want the game to learn it for you.

Totally agree. If anything, I would be more a fan of buffing a particular character rather than tearing down one just because there's people that don't know how to deal with it.

 

[BuddyBaker52]

IDK I feel link needs buffs lol his frame data is trash and it's really hard to deal with fast characters at times. I personally don't think he's anywhere near top tier. He's flashy and fun but even one big Nerf could make him unplayable imo

I'd like to see his jab get buffed a frame or two and maybe make his grab range just a little wider. I know it's really good but I just wish it was a little easier to Nair to grab. And I'd like his bombs to not take damage. I understand the timer but it's frustrating sometimes cuz the bomb is a good security blanket even can stop people mid combo sometimes.

 

[MASTER719]

Nerfed? Lmao! He needs a few buffs if anything

5 frame jab, earlier FAFs
Increased grab range
3 frame bomb detonation
Detonate when opponents are holding the bomb
All moves should be cancelable into detonation
Bomb toss damage increase

 

[BuddyBaker52]

Nerfed? Lmao! He needs a few buffs if anything

5 frame jab, earlier FAFs
Increased grab range
3 frame bomb detonation
Detonate when opponents are holding the bomb
All moves should be cancelable into detonation
Bomb toss damage increase

Lol IDK I kinda like not being able to detonate. It gives them a reason to grab it and then takes away a lot of their moves til they drop it

 

[KarenInHR]

Nerfed? Nah. He's in a decent spot, could use better frame data but otherwise hes pretty solid. My only wish would be to somehow have the square bombs so they dont roll as easily. It would make positioning them slightly easier. Completely unnecessary but I'd be happy with it. As it stands I like to use the bombs to keep between my opponent and me and smack it towards them to make them nervous. I am still a beginner with Link but he's pretty damn solid imho.

 

[Babajabadahut]

I think that the current iteration of link should be heralded as the embodiment of balance that I feel ultimate has achieved. Also you say you're a ness main, due to ness' frame data, super good out of shield options having Pkfire to deal with bombs, bat to deal with arrow and boomerang and honestly pretty decent disjoints on his aerials ness is probably one of Links biggest counters in my experience. Although my experience is biased, my practice partner is a ness main and slightly better than me so that skill gap might influence how I view the matchup.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Nerf remote bomb, buff frame data. That's how you handle Link.

 

[MERPIS]

Screw dash attack

 

[DelugeFGC]

Link is far from needing nerfs, he's not even a damned top tier.. Why are so many of you eager to ruin the meta before it even starts by crying out for nerfs?

You people harm the community AND game as a whole and come off like a bunch of chumps. Just being honest.

 

[Wunderwaft]

Link isn't broken and he doesn't require any nerfs. As a matter of fact there aren't any characters that are so blatantly overpowered on the roster. The only character that comes to my mind is Wolf and his ridiculous frame data and kill power, but even then I'm hesitant to call for nerfs on him since it's too early to judge him and the rest of the cast. Let the meta develop and then we can take a more critical look on the characters.

 

[DelugeFGC]

For example, my main Falcon let me and a lot of people down when I first got this game and I didn't think I could use him. As players like Fatality developed him and I kept using him, I learned he's still a VERY viable character and is just VERY execution / timing heavy and he requires extensive knowledge of his MU's.. he actually reminds me of another iteration of Falcon that was slept on in the early meta only to rise to close to the top as time passed.

^ Reasons like this are why we don't need nerfs right now above all else, the meta isn't developed. If you want to cry out for anything right now, make it buffs. You and hundreds cry for nerfs, you get it.. then it turns out there were several natural ways for multiple characters to counter that. Now they still have their strengths, and the nerfed character has been taken down a peg.. we don't need ANY nerfs right now in reality. I wish Nintendo would back off until about Month 6 in honesty.

 

[ChinaCat]

is this a troll? Nerfing link is a laughable idea. I agree with the sentiments of those above me, noone needs to be nerfed right now, learn the matchup before asking daddy sakarai to fix your problems.

Also i see people saying that we can buff link so that people holding his bombs will still detonate. Although as a link main i'd love this, i disagree that this is a good idea. I think the bomb is perfect how it is. Grabbing the bomb is a strategic risk when playing against link. If you grab it quick enough you're safe, but if he detonates before you grab it you might have just screwed yourself. With bomb being arguable the best projectile in the game, i think that having something to temper it is a good balance.

 

[Firox]

Link isn't broken and he doesn't require any nerfs. As a matter of fact there aren't any characters that are so blatantly overpowered on the roster. The only character that comes to my mind is Wolf and his ridiculous frame data and kill power, but even then I'm hesitant to call for nerfs on him since it's too early to judge him and the rest of the cast. Let the meta develop and then we can take a more critical look on the characters.

Wolf is no where near broken enough to warrant nerfs. His frame data may be good, but his range is painfully lacking on most of his moves (swordies trump him all day) and his recovery is pretty sad. Any character with a weakness cannot be considered broken enough to warrant nerfs. In Link's case, he has FAR too many weaknesses to deserve getting screwed over. Just look at the pro tournament results. How often does Link make top eight? Top 16? How many tournies has he even won???? These are real statistics that should be looked at. Not someone's biased whining over a match up they can't handle.

 

[DelugeFGC]

I think Wolf is an easy character that will fall to the ass end of top tier or maybe even high tier outright (esp. if he gets nerfed, which is likely with how many people are crying for it) as the meta develops and a lot of people are way too quick to defend his flaws. All the frame data in the world doesn't do jack when you get outspaced

Wolf doesn't even have super fantastic top notch kill power either, once he racks up heavy percent on you he's usually relegated to fishing for BAirs in neutral or going for grabs / USmash.. all of his popular kill options aren't being confirmed / combo'd into and require reads / punishes. One of his throws (I cannot recall) confirms into side B, which can cause all sorts of **** like him instastocking you at 40% (the range for this is around 28-45% depending on weight) if he throws you offstage (which is gonna kill him too after you die, but if he's up a stock or you're on your last it doesn't matter) or if onstage, stage spike you so hard you'll likely not be able to land again before he kills you. That's his best early kill option, and that's really not that fantastic compared to what other characters have. He has the DThrow > Side B option still at later percents, but this one doesn't give you the option to kill NEARLY as early as the other one, I believe that one may be DThrow too? Or perhaps BThrow, I forgot.

Full waft can kill at 0 and nobody on the roster is surviving it past 40-50% or so anywhere on the stage, and with Wario hitting like a sack of bricks a stray dash attack in neutral is all he needs before he goes for the UTilt combo confirm as the combo will rack up the rest of the needed %, then your stock is invalidated. It's one of the most busted kill options in the game, and I love it. I wouldn't ever advocate its nerf, I'm just using it as an example of how other characters have kill options leagues ahead of what Wolf has, and that's just one of several examples.

I know the appeal of Wolf is the package, not the individual parts, and you can't deny he's very well rounded in a lot of areas. That said, he's not perfect. His recovery is total ass. He eats combos harder than some other characters due to his fall speed. He doesn't really have any sort of guaranteed way to kill you off of a stray / weak hit in neutral like other characters do, he's usually stuck fishing for BAirs or punishes. Neutral airdodges really **** up his UAir if timed well because it doesn't linger long. Same with FAir. Wolf has piss range outside of his specials. Wolf has really bad disadvantage state in some MU's. Wolf has really bad neutral options in some MU's. Etc.. Etc..

Wolf is a very good character, right now no doubt somewhere on top tier. Will that last? I doubt it, he'll fall some. I'm not saying he's bottoming out into mid-tier or anything, but people are too quick to look past his flaws when tacking him onto the #1 spot of tier lists and asking for nerfs.

 

[~?~]

Link isn't a problem character. Link has a standing issue as a character within Smash Ultimate, that being, he's either REALLY good in the matchup, or REALLY bad in the matchup. His start frames on his attacks are dumb long and he isn't exactly "mobile" as a character overall, either. So he's really easy to pressure with any character that doesn't have high start frames and/or they have great mobility. Link has the honor of being a character with a very high skill ceiling as a sub-zoner midrange fighter. In the hands of good enough players, the edge guarding can become quite insane, but that's about all he has going for him. Outside of this, he abuses big bodies that are slow and dumb, but really, when it comes down to fighting the top 10 characters, Link gets shattered in the matchup spread because he's really just a mid-tier slayer.

EDIT: I'm a dual main for a reason. I don't just have a Link, I also have Wario and with good reasons. He covers the characters that just outright beat Link, that being, most the top through high tier roster.

 

[~?~]

Lol IDK I kinda like not being able to detonate. It gives them a reason to grab it and then takes away a lot of their moves til they drop it

This is false. Anyone playing a high level Link knows how false this is, especially me. Any player who knows how to bomb aerial with their character competently enough because they practiced it will also tell you how false this is. I don't want a Peach player, a Diddy player, a Rob player, or any player who can Z drop combo like I can, to have a hold of my bomb. Not only can they z drop aerial, but all special moves are still able to be used, so really, no options are cut off for a competent opponent while they are holding Link's bomb.

Also, you CAN blow up the bomb when the opponent is holding it, specifically if detonated on the first frame of them holding it. That's officially recognized, and also something I've done to people with high frequency.

 

[BuddyBaker52]

This is false. Anyone playing a high level Link knows how false this is, especially me. Any player who knows how to bomb aerial with their character competently enough because they practiced it will also tell you how false this is. I don't want a Peach player, a Diddy player, a Rob player, or any player who can Z drop combo like I can, to have a hold of my bomb. Not only can they z drop aerial, but all special moves are still able to be used, so really, no options are cut off for a competent opponent while they are holding Link's bomb.

Also, you CAN blow up the bomb when the opponent is holding it, specifically if detonated on the first frame of them holding it. That's officially recognized, and also something I've done to people with high frequency.

I'm aware that you can detonate on the first frame and opponent grabs it. 1 frame. The bomb itself takes 14 frames to detonate and only stays active for 2. Meaning that one frame is a nice buffer but not exactly reachable or game breaking like being able to detonate at any point would be. I can't speak for "high level" links but I am also aware of z drop combos. They are a big part of why I enjoy the character. But I think you're being pretty dismissive of the fact that an opponent grabbing the bomb is absolutely a mind game. If you could detonate at will it would take away any incentive for them to do so. A lot of characters aerials are too laggy to really take advantage of z dropping and I'd rather take a bomb throw then an fsmash from let's say ganondorf. Plus things like for example: you throw a bomb in neutral and they are limited by how they can react to basically shield. Right now they can throw out and aerial and hope to grab it before you can detonate. Otherwise you basically have to run any time a bomb is out. I don't really think that's fair or fun. I like the way it is. Maybe add a few frames to it but don't just let it blow whenever. Link is a trap based character. And I like the scrambles that this dynamic creates. Like for example: even if the do intercept it with an aerial if they don't space correctly they can be punished for it. Plus what if an opponent is holding a bomb off stage? You're saying link should have another way to gimp people? I'm just saying it's fine as is and changing it could break the game. Sounds like people just want more braindead kill options...

 

[Haden]

I'm aware that you can detonate on the first frame and opponent grabs it. 1 frame. The bomb itself takes 14 frames to detonate and only stays active for 2. Meaning that one frame is a nice buffer but not exactly reachable or game breaking like being able to detonate at any point would be. I can't speak for "high level" links but I am also aware of z drop combos. They are a big part of why I enjoy the character. But I think you're being pretty dismissive of the fact that an opponent grabbing the bomb is absolutely a mind game. If you could detonate at will it would take away any incentive for them to do so. A lot of characters aerials are too laggy to really take advantage of z dropping and I'd rather take a bomb throw then an fsmash from let's say ganondorf. Plus things like for example: you throw a bomb in neutral and they are limited by how they can react to basically shield. Right now they can throw out and aerial and hope to grab it before you can detonate. Otherwise you basically have to run any time a bomb is out. I don't really think that's fair or fun. I like the way it is. Maybe add a few frames to it but don't just let it blow whenever. Link is a trap based character. And I like the scrambles that this dynamic creates. Like for example: even if the do intercept it with an aerial if they don't space correctly they can be punished for it. Plus what if an opponent is holding a bomb off stage? You're saying link should have another way to gimp people? I'm just saying it's fine as is and changing it could break the game. Sounds like people just want more braindead kill options...

Little do you know that I rather take an F Smash from Ganondorf than take 90% off of a character who has item combos. Also, Link is quickly dropping tiers because his bad frame data holds him back against the majority of the high and top tiers. All attacks outside of Nair or Up Special out of shield are sad. Link doesn't need nurfed, no character that isn't in the top 20 should be nurfed.

 

[BuddyBaker52]

Little do you know that I rather take an F Smash from Ganondorf than take 90% off of a character who has item combos. Also, Link is quickly dropping tiers because his bad frame data holds him back against the majority of the high and top tiers. All attacks outside of Nair or Up Special out of shield are sad. Link doesn't need nurfed, no character that isn't in the top 20 should be nurfed.

I'm speaking in general terms and more so once you get into high percents. It just creates more options on both sides as apposed to a 50/50 and I agree I even have said it multiple times on this site that his frame data is the real problem. My only point was it really only benefits link to do this and gives him one more kill option that he doesn't need. Bomb is already really good no need to change it

Edit: also I don't think people are accounting for accidental regrabs from an opponent. I wanna play a fair balanced and fun game. And the bomb can already do so much. For example say I izac Nair on Roy and he jabs me out of it dropping the bomb, there's a chance he will accidentally regrabs it before he fsmashes for a kill confirm. I'm just saying bomb is not the issue

 

[~?~]

I'm speaking in general terms and more so once you get into high percents. It just creates more options on both sides as apposed to a 50/50 and I agree I even have said it multiple times on this site that his frame data is the real problem. My only point was it really only benefits link to do this and gives him one more kill option that he doesn't need. Bomb is already really good no need to change it

Edit: also I don't think people are accounting for accidental regrabs from an opponent. I wanna play a fair balanced and fun game. And the bomb can already do so much. For example say I izac Nair on Roy and he jabs me out of it dropping the bomb, there's a chance he will accidentally regrabs it before he fsmashes for a kill confirm. I'm just saying bomb is not the issue

Being at kill percents and walling out ganon so you don't get hit with a kill move OR a good character piloted by a good player holding Link's bomb?
I still rather the ganon swing at me at kill percent than a character taking me to kill percent in one combo because they had my bomb in hand, like Peach, Wario, Pichu, Chrom can just outright kill combo you will it 0 to death, literally, and even DK has a kill combo, etc etc.
Tweek showcased the threat of having a Link Bomb or Peach Turnip in hand with several characters, even Esam showed that Wario can instantly take you to kill percent with Links bomb. These are 100% true item combos too. You can actually Bomb Nair Bomb Fair Bomb into Fart with Wario for a stock with Wario, it's crazy.

The reason I highly disagree with Link's bomb being nurfed is because it can be used against him, and with extreme measure by a good portion of the cast, some taking him to near kill percent and others just outright killing.

 

[BuddyBaker52]

Lol I think we are having two different conversations. I agree with everything you're saying and there is always that threat but all I was saying was messing with the bomb is not going to help link. It will make his good matchups better and not really help the bad ones. (Aside from item combos, like you said but you have that power too with link so I feel the opponent should too if they can). I don't think link needs ANY nerfs. He's my favorite character to watch and to play. I just want a faster jab. Like why is up b faster? It makes no sense. Or if he had a little bit better run speed. IDK exactly what would make him top tier without breaking him but as of now I just don't think he can handle fast characters

 

[~?~]

Lol I think we are having two different conversations. I agree with everything you're saying and there is always that threat but all I was saying was messing with the bomb is not going to help link. It will make his good matchups better and not really help the bad ones. (Aside from item combos, like you said but you have that power too with link so I feel the opponent should too if they can). I don't think link needs ANY nerfs. He's my favorite character to watch and to play. I just want a faster jab. Like why is up b faster? It makes no sense. Or if he had a little bit better run speed. IDK exactly what would make him top tier without breaking him but as of now I just don't think he can handle fast characters

Links Bomb combos are about half as good as other characters who use his bomb better and this is very obvious when I invite the high caliber players to my arena. They know how to use the bomb against me. I don't see a point in making Link faster. We already have Young Link.

 

[BuddyBaker52]

Being at kill percents and walling out ganon so you don't get hit with a kill move OR a good character piloted by a good player holding Link's bomb?
I still rather the ganon swing at me at kill percent than a character taking me to kill percent in one combo because they had my bomb in hand, like Peach, Wario, Pichu, Chrom can just outright kill combo you will it 0 to death, literally, and even DK has a kill combo, etc etc.
Tweek showcased the threat of having a Link Bomb or Peach Turnip in hand with several characters, even Esam showed that Wario can instantly take you to kill percent with Links bomb. These are 100% true item combos too. You can actually Bomb Nair Bomb Fair Bomb into Fart with Wario for a stock with Wario, it's crazy.

The reason I highly disagree with Link's bomb being nurfed is because it can be used against him, and with extreme measure by a good portion of the cast, some taking him to near kill percent and others just outright killing.

Links Bomb combos are about half as good as other characters who use his bomb better and this is very obvious when I invite the high caliber players to my arena. They know how to use the bomb against me. I don't see a point in making Link faster. We already have Young Link.

Well for one, comparing Young link to botw link is like comparing ganon to captain falcon. They have completely different play styles are trying to accomplish very different goals. Two, link has a pretty bad disadvantage state. A quicker get off me tool and a little more mobility will help that a lot more than changing the bomb. As for the item combos I can't really debate you on that because you are isolating one aspect with out acknowledging any other. Like I said links bomb is pretty unique and being able to detonate it off stage while an opponent is holding it seems a bit much. Plus, yes item combos are very tech and will be more and more common, but it takes skill and I think that should be rewarded. Just speaking my mind. We are obviously not going to agree so thank you for the spirited debate lol

 

[~?~]

Well for one, comparing Young link to botw link is like comparing ganon to captain falcon. They have completely different play styles are trying to accomplish very different goals.

You're correct, those SPEED VALUES determine their playstyle. Tweek Links speed to mimic Yinks and you end up with Link doing Yink stuff.
If you take away Fox's speed, you think he'd do standing laser keep away into rush down mixup? No. Speed and frame data to effect, have everything to do with what options are chosen as the "goal" for said character. Can't compare Yink and Link because of speed for the same reason you cannot compare ganon to falcon because of speed. You COULD compare them by making changes to a character that would essentially mirror the values of X character. If I could run away with Link like I can Yink, YES, I WOULD shoot more arrows. Links arrows are bod because he's not mobile enough to make it safe. Yink, not only has better frames on his arrows, but mobility to keep away in the process. All of this is just a digression tho. I stand by what I said. We already have Yink, we don't need Link to be faster, just play Yink. They both space downtilt for combos, they both nair train, and they both focus on edge guards. They are already VERY similar. No need to make them exact.

EDIT: I'll also have you know, I have youtube highlight videos of me effectively using Links arrows like Yink does for stringing arrows into arrows and for edge guarding. Sooooooo... yeah, just thought I should mention that.

 

[BuddyBaker52]

Wow you are a master of over simplification. I'm not really sure where you got the idea that I wanted link as fast as young link or to do a wholesale change to the character. Go back and read my comment. I said his JAB and possibly up his run speed a bit. Nothing major. And the arrows bombs and rang all have different properties than each other. Not to mention hitboxes and a ton of other factors. You're the type of person who equates speaking louder to winning an argument. Have a good one.

Edit: I'm not looking to talk trash or make you feel like I'm attacking you so I'm not really sure how or why you got so aggressive but it's not doing you any favors. I'm sure you are a superior player than me but I'm allowed to have an opinion. And I love theory crafting this game. I don't really have the energy anymore to break down why I think you're wrong and the fact that link and Young link are a lot more different than you portray but you win.

 

[Haden]

Edit: also I don't think people are accounting for accidental regrabs from an opponent. I wanna play a fair balanced and fun game. And the bomb can already do so much. For example say I izac Nair on Roy and he jabs me out of it dropping the bomb, there's a chance he will accidentally regrabs it before he fsmashes for a kill confirm. I'm just saying bomb is not the issue

Even if a roy jabs resulting in Link dropping the bomb, smash attacks dont regrab the bomb. Hed have to accidentally grab it attempting the jab itself, in which case,that only happens to bad players because I don't know any good roys jabbin out of shield on the regular my dude

edit: also if a bomb has just hit you, the least intelligent thing to do is try to jab. thats not the bombs fault, that is the players fault. Another less intelligent thing to do is try to F smash after you grab a bomb.

2nd edit: if you get hit out of a z drop and they regrab the bomb, so what? Now they have your bomb and you don't, there isn't a real disadvantage for that person, in fact, for some characters, it's an accidental advantage.

In general, the scenario you explained is something I only see happen to casuals and low level competitors.

 

[BuddyBaker52]

Now that I did not know lol I was trying to think up something off the top of my head and I appreciate you letting me know. I'm still learning. This is my first smash game but it doesn't relate to bomb detonation which is what we even been talking about. The game developers try to stick as closely to the source material as they can right? So that means somewhere in development they realized they had to change the bomb. I can think of several reasons why too. All I was trying to do was voice my opinion on why it can't be detonated at any point. And the bomb IS a combo breaker in some instances. I was incorrect with my example hut I was trying to state that it's a lot more nuanced than that.

Edit: I do know that smash moves can't grab the bomb. I did say before... And like I said I was just trying to think of a quick example. I do admit it was a bad one tho lol

 

[~?~]

Wow you are a master of over simplification. I'm not really sure where you got the idea that I wanted link as fast as young link or to do a wholesale change to the character. Go back and read my comment. I said his JAB and possibly up his run speed a bit. Nothing major. And the arrows bombs and rang all have different properties than each other. Not to mention hitboxes and a ton of other factors. You're the type of person who equates speaking louder to winning an argument. Have a good one.

There isn't much space between Yink and Links speed. Tweeking Link to be faster is a really bad idea. His jab being faster also doesn't sound balanced because it's disjointed and spaced. He doesn't need a handy-jab. There is no reason to buff or nurf a character that needs neither and that would just make him more like a character that already exists. I can replicate similar effects to Yinks arrows using Links arrows just by hopping forward while I shoot them. Again, I have it recorded and uploaded. I'm also aware that the hitbox and hitstun values of the rangs are different, but they ultimately lead to the same bread and butter as each other in spite of that, and are used to control midrange the exact same way as each other. Completely comparable.

 

[BuddyBaker52]

Even if a roy jabs resulting in Link dropping the bomb, smash attacks dont regrab the bomb. Hed have to accidentally grab it attempting the jab itself, in which case,that only happens to bad players because I don't know any good roys jabbin out of shield on the regular my dude

edit: also if a bomb has just hit you, the least intelligent thing to do is try to jab. thats not the bombs fault, that is the players fault. Another less intelligent thing to do is try to F smash after you grab a bomb.

2nd edit: if you get hit out of a z drop and they regrab the bomb, so what? Now they have your bomb and you don't, there isn't a real disadvantage for that person, in fact, for some characters, it's an accidental advantage.

In general, the scenario you explained is something I only see happen to casuals and low level competitors.

There isn't much space between Yink and Links speed. Tweeking Link to be faster is a really bad idea. His jab being faster also doesn't sound balanced because it's disjointed and spaced. He doesn't need a handy-jab. There is no reason to buff or nurf a character that needs neither and that would just make him more like a character that already exists. I can replicate similar effects to Yinks arrows using Links arrows just by hopping forward while I shoot them. Again, I have it recorded and uploaded. I'm also aware that the hitbox and hitstun values of the rangs are different, but they ultimately lead to the same bread and butter as each other in spite of that, and are used to control midrange the exact same way as each other. Completely comparable.

What are you even talking about at this point? So many other swordies have a quicker jab. Young link has a rapid jab. And even up b is faster. And I'm saying MAYBE. Besides we are talking about a game that has 75 characters and Samus and dark Samus. And as far as run speed there are multiple different values to it and many was to make them feel different. Going back to the bomb, which completely changes the dynamic of the characters, I'm confused on what point you're even trying to make. You just said you don't want buffs.

 

[Haden]

To be honest ~?~ has made very valid statements. Links jab is slower than other swordies, but it also launches people at a good angle to chase with, unlike the other swordies. I assume by swordies you mean Fire Embelm, not yink and tink. Also, Link having the 3 hit jab means you can check the opponent with a single hit, or a double hit, and if you play against experienced Links like ~?~ and have the timing and muscle memory then you know you can also jab 1-2 and then Hero Spin as a confirm. You appear to be a Link main yourself, so you should know that Hero Spin kills.

 

[BuddyBaker52]

To be honest ~?~ has made very valid statements. Links jab is slower than other swordies, but it also launches people at a good angle to chase with, unlike the other swordies. I assume by swordies you mean Fire Embelm, not yink and tink. Also, Link having the 3 hit jab means you can check the opponent with a single hit, or a double hit, and if you play against experienced Links like ~?~ and have the timing and muscle memory then you know you can also jab 1-2 and then Hero Spin as a confirm. You appear to be a Link main yourself, so you should know that Hero Spin kills.

Before I say anything else I want to say thank you for talking to me like an adult and genuinely trying to inform me instead of steamrolling me. That being said I am aware of literally everything you just said. But for one I'd take Roy or chroms jab over links since it can set up combos. And I'm aware that jab 1 and 2 set up hero's spin and it def is cool tech but that doesn't negate the fact that hero spin is faster. Also lol yeah I know it's a kill move. And a great combo extender and reverse edgeguarding tool. It's a dope move and I love link. I just do think he is held back by his speed. Not his bomb. Literally the only point I've been trying to make.
Edit: also any swordies. Cloud for example has a quicker jab

 

[Haden]

Before I say anything else I want to say thank you for talking to me like an adult and genuinely trying to inform me instead of steamrolling me. That being said I am aware of literally everything you just said. But for one I'd take Roy or chroms jab over links since it can set up combos. And I'm aware that jab 1 and 2 set up hero's spin and it def is cool tech but that doesn't negate the fact that hero spin is faster. Also lol yeah I know it's a kill move. And a great combo extender and reverse edgeguarding tool. It's a dope move and I love link. I just do think he is held back by his speed. Not his bomb. Literally the only point I've been trying to make.
Edit: also any swordies. Cloud for example has a quicker jab

Jab 1 has far less risk than Hero Spin. I wouldn't think anyone would want to check shields and spot dodges with a Hero Spin. If you're looking for reverse edge guarding tools, Link has a great plethora of them. ~?~ mentioned his videos and in a couple of them, they display something he does quite often at least once a game when people try to edge guard him. I'll link them with time stamps HERE and HERE.

Link can protect his recovery with both arrows and boomerangs, and the bomb is there to always help you recover if you do end up being swatted in an edge guard attempt. Link has a pretty dirty trick actually. He's one of the few characters with a consistent scenario of edge guarding a character trying to edge guard him. He doesn't just swat you away, he outright kills you. I've been hit with it a million times already and it's stupid but it is what it is.