Why Ken need a buff

[Baptiste2]

Why I think Ken need a buff

-Side B:
The side B of Ryu is a combo finisher, and th side B of Ken is a combo starter. But it doesn't work.
If you hit someone with it, the opponent can react before you because the move doesn't do enought hitstun, and it does no damage to shield.
The aerial version of the move as less lag, but still not enought to react in time.
All you can do is hope that your opponent try to do a move with slow start-up or doesn't tech.
-Kill power:
Ryu as no real trouble for killing, because he have is shoryuken, but Ken's shoryuken doesn't have a lot of range on the ground, but more in the air (wich is harder to hit with).
Ken have some kill confirmed with his tilt, but after 110%, they just doesn't work.
He doesn't have a kill throw, down trow kill only at >150% and back throw never kill.
-Some bugs:
Ken and ryu always face their opponents.
But their are sometimes able to Adoken or Tatsumaki without facing their opponent, wich is realy confusing and can be punish.
The hits of Ken's shoryuken sometimes doesn't connect.
Sometimes while using his down B (focus attack), he can stun his opponent but be hit at the same time, so the opponent is stun but he's hit too, make almost impossible to punish.

Probably forget others problems

 

[Deleted member]

Why I think Ken need a buff

-Side B:
The side B of Ryu is a combo finisher, and th side B of Ken is a combo starter. But it doesn't work.
If you hit someone with it, the opponent can react before you because the move doesn't do enought hitstun, and it does no damage to shield.
The aerial version of the move as less lag, but still not enought to react in time.
All you can do is hope that your opponent try to do a move with slow start-up or doesn't tech.
-Kill power:
Ryu as no real trouble for killing, because he have is shoryuken, but Ken's shoryuken doesn't have a lot of range on the ground, but more in the air (wich is harder to hit with).
Ken have some kill confirmed with his tilt, but after 110%, they just doesn't work.
He doesn't have a kill throw, down trow kill only at >150% and back throw never kill.
-Some bugs:
Ken and ryu always face their opponents.
But their are sometimes able to Adoken or Tatsumaki without facing their opponent, wich is realy confusing and can be punish.
The hits of Ken's shoryuken sometimes doesn't connect.
Sometimes while using his down B (focus attack), he can stun his opponent but be hit at the same time, so the opponent is stun but he's hit too, make almost impossible to punish.

Probably forget others problems

Um the fact they face thare opponent is not a bug it's an actual mechanic

 

[Orlando BCN]

This thread would be better suited in the Ken discussions.

-Some bugs:
Ken and ryu always face their opponents.
But their are sometimes able to Adoken or Tatsumaki without facing their opponent, wich is realy confusing and can be punish.

What makes the fact that you’re wrong about the auto-facing mechanic being a glitch even funnier is that you misspelled Hadoken.

 

[Deleted member]

This thread would be better suited in the Ken discussions.

What makes the fact that you’re wrong about the auto-facing mechanic being a glitch even funnier is that you misspelled Hadoken.

Ya I would guess English isn't his first language

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Ya I would guess English isn't his first language

...

Sir... His English was fine. Why do you even say that when he misspelled a Japanese word?

 

[Orlando BCN]

...

Sir... His English was fine. Why do you even say that when he misspelled a Japanese word?

All you can do is hope that your opponent try to do a move with slow start-up or doesn't tech.

Ryu as no real trouble for killing, because he have is shoryuken,

Ken have some kill confirmed with his tilt, but after 110%, they just doesn't work.

Don’t see any problem myself.

 

[Deleted member]

...

Sir... His English was fine. Why do you even say that when he misspelled a Japanese word?

There's a little bit of misgramer like the title but nothing major

 

[Swordmaster102]

Ken is fine. In my opinion, he is good where he is. Ryu on the other hand is the one who needs changes.

 

[Shieldlesscap]

Alright let's take this post apart, shall we?

1. Ken's Tatsu is a combo extender, not a combo starter. The opponent has time to react at low %s which makes it a 50/50 where either they shield or they try to attack. Trying to attack will beat your grab but not your own attack, while trying to shield can either block your attack or result in them being grabbed.
2. Ken's Tatsu has MORE lag in the air, not less
3. Ken's Tatsu is pretty hard to tech if you do the light version so it's not a thing you need to hope for
4. Ken is better at killing if anything because Ryu struggles to get the opponent to kill % while Ken has a boatload of confirms and combos. You can literally kill confirm off of a dair at 55, for example.
5. Neither Ken nor Ryu need kill throws, though I'll admit I'd like Back Throw having a lower angle.
6. Facing the opponent isn't a bug.
7. Doing HADOKEN away from the opponent means you messed up the input and accidentally did half circle forward + B. This will turn you around, and then during the animation you won't be able to act, while the game also considers you still facing the opponent. This will buffer a Hadoken while you turn around, and you'll do it facing away from the opponent. To prevent this, get better with your inputs or use A instead of B.
8. This is also exactly what happens with Tatsu except reversed. This notably happens while running forward. To prevent it, add a slight delay between stopping your run and inputting Tatsu, or simply use the B version. You really shouldn't be using Tatsu while running very often though.
9. If all of the hits of dp don't connect, it means you misspaced the move.
10. And if you trade during Focus, it means you mistimed the move.

 

[Baptiste2]

Um the fact they face thare opponent is not a bug it's an actual mechanic

I don't want to say that the auto-facing is a glitch, I just want to mention it, but the way I placed it above the text can be confusing.

 

[Baptiste2]

This thread would be better suited in the Ken discussions.

What makes the fact that you’re wrong about the auto-facing mechanic being a glitch even funnier is that you misspelled Hadoken.

First post on SmashBoards, don't even know there is a Ken discussions chanel

 

[Deleted member]

First post on SmashBoards, don't even know there is a Ken discussions chanel

its ok we all make mistakes

 

[Deleted member]

First post on SmashBoards, don't even know there is a Ken discussions chanel

its ok we all make mistakes oof...

 

[Baptiste2]

Alright let's take this post apart, shall we?

1. Ken's Tatsu is a combo extender, not a combo starter. The opponent has time to react at low %s which makes it a 50/50 where either they shield or they try to attack. Trying to attack will beat your grab but not your own attack, while trying to shield can either block your attack or result in them being grabbed.
2. Ken's Tatsu has MORE lag in the air, not less
3. Ken's Tatsu is pretty hard to tech if you do the light version so it's not a thing you need to hope for
4. Ken is better at killing if anything because Ryu struggles to get the opponent to kill % while Ken has a boatload of confirms and combos. You can literally kill confirm off of a dair at 55, for example.
5. Neither Ken nor Ryu need kill throws, though I'll admit I'd like Back Throw having a lower angle.
6. Facing the opponent isn't a bug.
7. Doing HADOKEN away from the opponent means you messed up the input and accidentally did half circle forward + B. This will turn you around, and then during the animation you won't be able to act, while the game also considers you still facing the opponent. This will buffer a Hadoken while you turn around, and you'll do it facing away from the opponent. To prevent this, get better with your inputs or use A instead of B.
8. This is also exactly what happens with Tatsu except reversed. This notably happens while running forward. To prevent it, add a slight delay between stopping your run and inputting Tatsu, or simply use the B version. You really shouldn't be using Tatsu while running very often though.
9. If all of the hits of dp don't connect, it means you misspaced the move.
10. And if you trade during Focus, it means you mistimed the move.

I'm right with some points, but not with others:
3.Tatsu is not rly hard to tech, maybe the first few times, but you get the timing quickly. The opponent will tech more than 60% of the time after a few tatsu.
5.Not be able to kill with your throw before 200% is a huge problem. I agree with your back throw change.
9.Even if it's rare, shoryu need a little buff for better connecting.

Thanks for your answer :D

 

[Megamanxtreme Unlimited]

Ken is fine. In my opinion, he is good where he is. Ryu on the other hand is the one who needs changes.

What praytell about him needs to be changed? Explain.

 

[Swordmaster102]

What praytell about him needs to be changed? Explain.

-Well first off, his N-air needs desperately to be reduced back to 28 frames (which was the duration for him in smash 4, as well as the same as ken’s). This would actually let him have an aerial game that was stripped from him in ultimate.

-His shakunetsu has way too little priority. This move needs more.

-in general, his “fireball game” needs improvements. I believe that his hadoken could go with slightly less endlag. (And to be frank, imo Ryu should have slightly less endlag for his hadoken than Ken)

-tatsumaki needs greater priority. If you have a read on your opponent, tatsu should be able to go through about all projectiles.

-Light up tilt needs a slightly larger horizontal hitbox. (The hitbox can wiff in some situations which are ridiculous. An example is out of a FA it can wiff)
Also this change should be universal, so it can apply to Ken.

-Ryu’s shoryu needs its invisibility back, or at least less endlag.

- Medium down tilt send out a more horizontal launch angle. This will make combos into Tatsu/hadoken more reliable at higher percents and on floaties. (This can also be applied to Ken, but I see it not very necessary since Ken has the command roundhouse kick. He can do it out of a medium d-tilt which works on every weight class. Ryu doesn’t have an option like that. Floaties for example can get out of a hadoken and tatsu finisher.



There’s definitely more I can list for you.

 

[~?~]

I like seeing low level players say Ken is fine as he slowly falls to the bottomless abyss of the bottom tier list where he belongs.

No for real tho. Ken is pretty bad, not going to lie. You can cheez people with him but that's about it. Same as Ryu. They don't have good enough hit boxes and down special gets stuffed super duper EZ in this game as everyone and their mother is dropping multi-hits on your dome-piece. The characters have toolkits that just don't have a place in this version of smash, not to mention how TERRIBLE their projectile actually is in neutral.

If I were to call out character names that do in fact need help, Ken and Ryu are 100% for sure 2 of them.

 

[Shieldlesscap]

I like seeing low level players say Ken is fine as he slowly falls to the bottomless abyss of the bottom tier list where he belongs.

No for real tho. Ken is pretty bad, not going to lie. You can cheez people with him but that's about it. Same as Ryu. They don't have good enough hit boxes and down special gets stuffed super duper EZ in this game as everyone and their mother is dropping multi-hits on your dome-piece. The characters have toolkits that just don't have a place in this version of smash, not to mention how TERRIBLE their projectile actually is in neutral.

If I were to call out character names that do in fact need help, Ken and Ryu are 100% for sure 2 of them.

It's not that Ken is bad so much as his punish game is extremely complicated and we're still learning it, and the fact that his neutral is really easy to mess up. He's not bad, we're just bad.

Reason everyone says Ken is better than Ryu is because Ken will have much better combos once we finally master him, while Ryu will still be held back by weaker moves like his Nair, lack of CK, etc. Right now both are bad, but Ken will get better as the players start to get good, while there's only so far Ryu can be pushed.

 

[~?~]

It's not that Ken is bad so much as his punish game is extremely complicated and we're still learning it, and the fact that his neutral is really easy to mess up. He's not bad, we're just bad.

Reason everyone says Ken is better than Ryu is because Ken will have much better combos once we finally master him, while Ryu will still be held back by weaker moves like his Nair, lack of CK, etc. Right now both are bad, but Ken will get better as the players start to get good, while there's only so far Ryu can be pushed.

When a character is complicated but not optimal, it's a low tier. No consistent kill confirms, combo weight, bad recovery, mediocre neutral game, outclassed movement speed both in air and on ground by a major portion of the cast. Lacks disjoints, lacks actual range, struggles against zoning (which is available to half the cast) but can't zone with his own projectile, best move he has (down special) is virtually useless at high levels, and much much more. The only 2 things Ken does well is anti-air with Up B and poke with down tilt.... which leads to nothing particularly special. All these issues on top of having a complicated guessing game to play which is easy to error in execution makes him a pretty unwise pick against a good player, as everything Ken struggles to do for minimum reward, the top tiers do for free for high reward.

 

[Shieldlesscap]

When a character is complicated but not optimal, it's a low tier. No consistent kill confirms, combo weight, bad recovery, mediocre neutral game, outclassed movement speed both in air and on ground by a major portion of the cast. Lacks disjoints, lacks actual range, struggles against zoning (which is available to half the cast) but can't zone with his own projectile, best move he has (down special) is virtually useless at high levels, and much much more. The only 2 things Ken does well is anti-air with Up B and poke with down tilt.... which leads to nothing particularly special. All these issues on top of having a complicated guessing game to play which is easy to error in execution makes him a pretty unwise pick against a good player, as everything Ken struggles to do for minimum reward, the top tiers do for free for high reward.

Thing is, he does have consistent kill confirms, some disjoints, decent range on a lot of things, some amazing anti airs, varied movement if you mix in wavebounce Focus and stuff like that, and a couple other things, like having a bunch of antiairs, a bunch of combo extenders that also condition, some of the best ledge traps in the game (even if they're also some of the harder ones to get consistently), like 6 really good antiairs (Up Air, both Up Tilts, Up Smash, Shoryuken, roundhouse), invincible kill moves with a lot of range (Roundhouse) and multiple ways to confirm into spikes. More importantly though, he DOES have higher reward than a lot of really good characters, because playing optimally you can kill confirm at stupid low %s using things like Medium Shoryuken and Majin Airlines, but playing optimally is so hard that no one has actually been able to do it yet except for Venom.

Again, the character isn't bad, the players are bad, and we still have a long way to go before this character actually shows his potential. Once we do actually get good though, this character is going to be ridiculous.

 

[~?~]

Thing is, he does have consistent kill confirms, some disjoints, decent range on a lot of things, some amazing anti airs, varied movement if you mix in wavebounce Focus and stuff like that, and a couple other things, like having a bunch of antiairs, a bunch of combo extenders that also condition, some of the best ledge traps in the game (even if they're also some of the harder ones to get consistently), like 6 really good antiairs (Up Air, both Up Tilts, Up Smash, Shoryuken, roundhouse), invincible kill moves with a lot of range (Roundhouse) and multiple ways to confirm into spikes. More importantly though, he DOES have higher reward than a lot of really good characters, because playing optimally you can kill confirm at stupid low %s using things like Medium Shoryuken and Majin Airlines, but playing optimally is so hard that no one has actually been able to do it yet except for Venom.

Again, the character isn't bad, the players are bad, and we still have a long way to go before this character actually shows his potential. Once we do actually get good though, this character is going to be ridiculous.

There's a golden standard for viability in both high and top level play. Consistency. If your character doesn't have that, don't expect it to top a major. I really don't ever expect Ken or Ryu to top a major, especially considering that he's been pretty labbed out by the high level players who USED TO main him, until they boarded the Wolf and Lucina trains so they can stop losing matchups to bad players who are carried by good characters.

 

[Shieldlesscap]

There's a golden standard for viability in both high and top level play. Consistency. If your character doesn't have that, don't expect it to top a major. I really don't ever expect Ken or Ryu to top a major, especially considering that he's been pretty labbed out by the high level players who USED TO main him, until they boarded the Wolf and Lucina trains so they can stop losing matchups to bad players who are carried by good characters.

That's the thing, the characters can be consistent, but getting them to that level is difficult. Hell, Nairo was the only top player who tried Ken and he didn't play him for long enough to know what Medium Shoryuken did, so I wouldn't consider him to have really labbed him out that much.

Right now the character is difficult to get consistent, but once people do master him, he's gonna be stupid good. Right now he isn't worth the investment for top players who can't win tournaments while still learning him, but once they see what high level shotos actually have access to, he will be.

 

[Megamanxtreme Unlimited]

-Well first off, his N-air needs desperately to be reduced back to 28 frames (which was the duration for him in smash 4, as well as the same as ken’s). This would actually let him have an aerial game that was stripped from him in ultimate.

-His shakunetsu has way too little priority. This move needs more.

-in general, his “fireball game” needs improvements. I believe that his hadoken could go with slightly less endlag. (And to be frank, imo Ryu should have slightly less endlag for his hadoken than Ken)

-tatsumaki needs greater priority. If you have a read on your opponent, tatsu should be able to go through about all projectiles.

-Light up tilt needs a slightly larger horizontal hitbox. (The hitbox can wiff in some situations which are ridiculous. An example is out of a FA it can wiff)
Also this change should be universal, so it can apply to Ken.

-Ryu’s shoryu needs its invisibility back, or at least less endlag.

- Medium down tilt send out a more horizontal launch angle. This will make combos into Tatsu/hadoken more reliable at higher percents and on floaties. (This can also be applied to Ken, but I see it not very necessary since Ken has the command roundhouse kick. He can do it out of a medium d-tilt which works on every weight class. Ryu doesn’t have an option like that. Floaties for example can get out of a hadoken and tatsu finisher.



There’s definitely more I can list for you.

Nah, I've heard more than I needed to hear thanks!!