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Why isn't Doc an echo?

pupNapoleon

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I am just wondering if there is any stated reason as to why Dr. Mario isn't considered an echo.
While this is an argument that might be made for many characters- Falco, Roy, Pichu, Young Link...there are two big differences.

1- Roy couldn't be an echo, because then Marth would have three echoes. Likely that isn't the image echoes are to have. This could be said for the Links, as well.
2- Doctor Mario was in the same category as Lucina and Dark Pit as recently as Sm4sh.

Is there any reason, assumed or stated (Ideally stated), as to why Dr. Mario isn't an echo?
 

Marcus the Red

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While Mario and Dr. Mario are incredibly similar, there are some major differences that prevent them from being considered as echo fighters. The most obvious difference is the difference in their move sets.
  • Side-B: Dr. Mario's cape does not stall him in the air like Mario's does. Doc's cape's hitbox is also taller than Mario's and it has a greater damage multiplier.
  • Down-B: In exchange for Mario's FLUDD, Doc retains Mario's old down-b prior to Brawl where he spins (and mashing B allows you to rise in the air during the attack).
  • Fair: Dr. Mario's forward air does not meteor like Mario's. It instead sends opponents at an upward angle.
  • Dair: Because Dr. Mario's down-b is the spinning tornado move, Dr. Mario's dair is a downward kick that meteors.
That being said, the most important difference between the two fighters to more experienced players is Dr. Mario's reduced air acceleration, air speed, ground speed, and jump height. This greatly reduces Dr. Mario's abilities to combo, recover, and win neutral. This is why you'll see Dr. Mario placed so lowly in tier lists. To balance this out, Dr. Mario deals more damage for almost all of his attacks.

If you look at the other echo fighters (e.g., Daisy, Dark Samus, or Richter), the differences between them and their respective "original fighters" are nearly non-existent. The gulf between Mario and Dr. Mario is significantly greater.
 

Pupp135

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I assume it’s just because he was added in Melee.
Lucina and Dark Pit are echoes, but Dr. Mario was also a last minute clone in the For games. Also, he’d be the only one that would fit echo from the Melee clones since Falco, Ganondorf, and Roy are different enough now, and Pichu and Young Link’s model has some differences from their original fighters (same reason Isabelle is not considered an echo), so the developers might have thought it’d be awkward to only have one echo from Melee.
 

1FC0

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Here's a better question: why was Doc even chosen, even considering the little time the team had in Melee? You could've not included him or Pichu and the game wouldn't be affected that much.
Leaving out Dr. Mario is a terrible idea. They would give up the "Everyone is here!" slogan just for the sake of not having to add one easy-to-add semi-clone in a roster of 69 characters!
 

1FC0

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I meant not have added them in Melee.
Oops, I misread.

You have a decent point, but personally I am still glad that he got in. Back in the Melee days I was completely unaware of the Dr. Mario series and having a character that is just Mario as a doctor was hilarious to me. Imagine going to the doctor and then instead of having a licensed professional you get treated by your goofy plumber! Dr. Mario is by far the funniest character on the roster.
 

Janx_uwu

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Here's a better question: why was Doc even chosen, even considering the little time the team had in Melee? You could've not included him or Pichu and the game wouldn't be affected that much.
I suppose they wanted to bump up the number of characters while also not spending so much dev time on them-same thing with echoes these days.
 

1FC0

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I have a theory of why they put in Dr. Mario. For the theory you need to know the shape of the Melee roster:

It has a symetrical shape and every character that is on a very side of the roster are clones of the characters that are next to them on the same row. Mario must to be the first normal character on the roster because it is Nintendo's mascot. That means that the clone character that occupies the spot next to him on the very side of the roster must be his clone. And thus why they needed a Mario clone.

I guess that they could have stretched it and place Luigi there again, but Luigi was a semi-clone instead of a full clone.

This might also explain why Ganondorf is a Falcon clone; the unlucky ******* just getting the wrong spot on the roster!
 
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