Why is Rainbow Cruise CP?

[teluoborg]

Good question. Has it ever actually been looked into? Like, is gameplay broken and non-competitive (not non-"normal", non-competitive) on it?

Constant walk offs, impressive number of walls and ceilings, top blast zone so low Snake's Utilt kills at like 80%...
But I know that "making the game ********" doesn't mean "non competitive" to you, so go ahead and test.

 

[lordhelmet]

RC is ****ing legit. Falcon counter-pick ftw

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Constant walk offs, impressive number of walls and ceilings, top blast zone so low Snake's Utilt kills at like 80%...
But I know that "making the game ********" doesn't mean "non competitive" to you, so go ahead and test.

It's funny because every flaw the stage has seems to be almost balanced out by the hazards. Walkoffs? DDD is gonna have one hell of a time CGing you over those koopas and sidesteppers (who hit the walkoffs so that walkoff camping kinda sucks). Ceilings? Yeah, you live forever. The turtles and crabs kill at like 50% and have an extremely low angle. Low blast zone? You're going to be getting kills super early anyways...

I'm not making the game ********, blame nintendo for that. But if the stage is competitively legitimate, why not use it? Because "baww we don't want to"?

 

[DMG]

You can kill people at 0% by grabbing an enemy and throwing it at them. If they do not catch (or shield correctly, they shield stab pretty scary) or avoid it, they tend to outright die regardless of %. "Regular" fighting consisting of attacks is diluted, as people can DI into the ceilings and have multiple places to tech.

The best overall strategy on Mario Bros is to HEAVILY abuse what the stage gives you: Quite powerful enemies that you can throw. There is no "Well MK can use Tornado" or "Plank here" or "Run in circle". But gameplay boils down into "Ok, do I have an item/does the opponent have an item?" the ENTIRE match. There will not be a single instant, besides cursing at the screen, where you are not gonna forget who has the items, and if they can kill you with the items.

 

[Raziek]

Mario Bros. is pretty much banned because it's a COMPLETELY different game.

Yeah, it might be competitively fair in one sense or another, but you're effectively no longer playing Smash Bros.

You're instead playing Smash MARIO BROS, which throws away almost all the fundamentals of what is considered "traditionally acceptable play".

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

And is that a legitimate reason to ban a stage?

 

[Raziek]

And is that a legitimate reason to ban a stage?

I would consider a complete derivation from the game's original competitive design unacceptable, yes.

There's also the problem with degenerate gameplay as outlined by DMG, which ties in with the "different game" thing.

 

[-LzR-]

The legitimate reason is the very lack of competitiveness of it.

 

[Enzo]

Since this thread talks about Cp'ing i'm gonna give a strong statement about this whole counterpicking situation. WHY THE **** are stages like RC, Picto, green greens, and lets not get inot the rest of what the BBR said is legal to counterpick on. I mean SERIOUSLY? I dont understand at all, obviously the BBR wants to decrease the skill factor of brawl by letting stages in which so much ****ing BS can occur. I just posted a youtube video showing my brother's marth just die on a transformation Glitch on Castle siege here's the link.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hIYHvaFWmYE

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

We allow them because there is no reason to ban them. To be perfectly clear, every stage the BBR has legal has no real reason to ban it. At least, none that was sufficiently tested. Learn to adapt to stages and you'll realize that not only do they not remove skill, but in almost every case, they raise the skill level involved. Learn to play on the stages and such bull**** will not happen to you. Ever. That glitch? Would not have happened if he hadn't done something very wrong during the end of the (regular, non-random) transformation.

 

[Enzo]

I guess you're right but, regarding CP i still think that RC should be banned due to one character that excels to stupid levels on that stage. And if you ban RC he'll take you to Brinstar and let's not get into that or vice-versa

Though I main and love MK i'd liek to see him get "nerfed" by removing RC from CP

 

[Gifts]

Yeah you can sort of nerf meta a bit by removing RC as a CP. I'll ask you this question... what about other characters that use RC as a CP. i.e. Wario, they ban Brinstar I'll usually take them to RC. I know there are other characters who benefit from RC. And I though CP's where suppose to help characters out. Hence if you loose game 1 you get to CP to a stage your character excels at/you feel more comfortable on.

[sorry I'm uber tired at the moment just thought I'd throw this post out there.]

 

[Enzo]

Yeah you can sort of nerf meta a bit by removing RC as a CP. I'll ask you this question... what about other characters that use RC as a CP. i.e. Wario, they ban Brinstar I'll usually take them to RC. I know there are other characters who benefit from RC. And I though CP's where suppose to help characters out. Hence if you loose game 1 you get to CP to a stage your character excels at/you feel more comfortable on.

[sorry I'm uber tired at the moment just thought I'd throw this post out there.]

That is true, but still i think they shoudl remove RC IMO again IMO, this is obviously a controversial matter

 

[Reducas]

ok i read all the comments but on rc its harder to fight and come back. on Mario bros stage its easy to fight and its fair to all characters. rc is just 4 characters that can fly imo. even if snake up tilt kill at 80% it takes away his c4 and dsmash and for D3 it would be hard to chain grab(camp away and stay away from close pipe areas). to me it makes mk B tier and all A tier go lower on the tier list.the underground board will be hard to kill( and different story). MK is too S tier on that Rainbow Cruise .

 

[Gifts]

ok i read all the comments but on rc its harder to fight and come back. on Mario bros stage its easy to fight and its fair to all characters. rc is just 4 characters that can fly imo. even if snake up tilt kill at 80% it takes away his c4 and dsmash and for D3 it would be hard to chain grab(camp away and stay away from close pipe areas). to me it makes mk B tier and all A tier go lower on the tier list.the underground board will be hard to kill( and different story). MK is too S tier on that Rainbow Cruise .

RC is one of D3's better CP I think.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

The issue with banning a stage because a character (not a tactic, a character) is too strong on it is that you are essentially tweaking/nerfing that character. You are saying "this character is too broken when this perfectly legitimate stage is legal". Either that, or "This character is not broken, we just want to nerf him anyways". And, by the way, in RC's case, it's probably the latter.

 

[DMG]

Actually, there are tactics the character in question is exploiting; that's what makes him so strong on the level generally. MK dominates Brinstar. Why? Because he's a good character? Well depends. He can Shark and plank and beat anyone in the cast on here solidly, once he uses those tactics. Other characters that can shark well here also get a noticeable boost, G&W being the obvious one.

When someone says ban RC because of MK, they mean Ban RC because MK can abuse x tactics.

 

[Raziek]

Sharking is neither dominate nor degenerate though, and planking is a completely different story.

Doesn't seem legit to me.

 

[DMG]

It dominates the hell out of Brinstar lol.

 

[Enzo]

Is sharking like going udner the stage and coming up thru the stage or soemthing else :/

 

[lordhelmet]

Sharking is basically jumping just under the stage and spamming uair where you can't reliably get hit.

And whoever said sharking isn't a dominate factor on Brinstar...




















LOL!

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Pretty easy to Shark on Brinstar btw.

 

[Raziek]

I was referring to Sharking in general, not sharking on Brinstar specifically. I don't think I'd consider it a reason to ban the stage though. You still have full control of your character, unlike wall infinites. However, I question how feasible it is to hit him, if this might be something you would lump in with the likes of planking.

 

[Inferno3044]

And is that a legitimate reason to ban a stage?

Yes.........

 

[Evil-Guy]

sharking means to pull someones clothes off in public

 

[BSP]

Sharking is a powerfull strategy to use, but remember guys, MK, and Pit maybe, are the only two characters who would actually shark you and it would be difficult to beat. If it's only a problem for 1/2 characters, meaning that EVERY MU in the game on that stage resorts to the strategy, it's probably not enough to ban the entire stage.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Sharking is effective against some members of the cast, but most viable ones have options against it, even simple ones like "wait it out and punish it". It's not possible to shark safely for the whole game without going over LGLs, and it's especially not possible on Brinstar.

 

[DMG]

Actually it is, at least for MK.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Really? Can you show me a match where it happened?

 

[DMG]

On Brinstar, if they are anywhere but the bottom part, you can simply hop back onto the stage freely. At the bottom if they are to the left, you can Tornado through them to the other side. Vice verse if they are on the right. You can also Shuttle Loop where it passes through and lands/cancels on the first platforms, and most characters can't punish that even if they know it's coming. You can also abuse things like jumping off, and gliding under the stage coming up through it/feinting it.

What makes it bypass the LGL is that MK isn't forced to grab the edge at any part of this. If he wants to shark normally, he can fall off without grabbing the edge, and then go to work. He's also not fun to follow as he does it, since going airborne usually lets him get back safely, and following him along the ground is just asking for trouble lol.

 

[Raziek]

The more we talk about this, the more reason I see to ban MK.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

So, to be perfectly clear, according to you, on Brinstar, MK is effectively unbeatable if correctly played (including LGLs)?

 

[Simno]

Do things have to be ultimatums? You could argue either way and theorycraft all day. The reality is MK sharks all day on brinstar (and a few other stages). Whether or not you see this as a reason to ban Brinstar, MK, or do nothing is a personal choice.

 

[DMG]

Frankly if played correctly, yes. Brinstar is quite a strong CP for MK. It would be different if the stage did not allow sharking, it would just be a jankier BF basically. But being able to go under the stage freely like that puts MK in a powerful position if there are few to none realistic expectations of stopping him.

It's the only permanent sharking stage besides Norfair (which I think is pretty strong in its own right for MK). Anything besides a short, no platformed version of Brinstar would be great for MK if you could shark it like that.