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Rant / Other Why is it so hard to read and punish in this game?

Oz o:

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I'm going to give examples, and they're not necessarily just limited to characters like Ike, Ganondorf and Wario. These are characters that can, a lot of the time, hit your shield and autotically do something afterwards (aka get away with it). I'm constantly having to read the action they perform afterwards, and it's not that easy to be consistent with it. It's never something straightforward. This is also true for things like when you think you can punish a whiff or a landing and they can just attack or shield afterwards, even though you were sure you catch something like an airdodge.

It bothers me when people say "oh just grab bro" like when a person is sitting in shield but they can just automatically do something afterwards. Sometimes this game is so weird, like that.
 
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ZephyrZ

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It's because of some of the changes made to make Ultimate more aggressive compared to 4. Decreased landing lag, weakened shields and increased start up on shield grabs all add up to a game where it's much easier to aggressively pressure your opponents and get away with it.

That said, it's still often possible to punish poorly spaced more laggier moves, so understanding your out of shield game is still important. For a lot of characters, Grab isn't their fastest shield grab option. Up Specials, Up Smashes and rising aerials can all bypass the shield drop animations.

Banjo's fastest OoS move his his frame 9 Up Smash, while Zelda's fastest OoS move is her Up Special at frame 6 (although its high commitment, so only use it if you're sure it'll connect).

You don't always have to go for the punish, though. If you're not feeling confident you're going to get the punish, spot dodging, rolling, or full hopping away are always options to. They're punishable if your opponent reads it though, so like all things in Smash, be sure to mix it up.

Edit:
It bothers me when people say "oh just grab bro" like when a person is sitting in shield but they can just automatically do something afterwards. Sometimes this game is so weird, like that.
It just occurred to me that when you said this, you were referring to grabbing shields, not shield grabbing as a way to punish shield pressure. I hope I didn't come across as condescending explaining OoS to you if you already knew that.
 
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Oz o:

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It just feels a little off that I'm having to read this far ahead and constantly, and it makes me wonder if I'm just playing the game wrong. I'd have to look at how top players do this kind of stuff, more often. Apparently, half the time they're just taking turns at each other's shield without really getting anything straight off of it. Two of the people I play consistently play a lot of OoS. They don't overextend with grabs, and even shield grabs a lot of the time. They just tend to prefer to swing first and something like like a Nair OoS (with Wario or Ridley, in this case).

It just occurred to me that when you said this, you were referring to grabbing shields, not shield grabbing as a way to punish shield pressure. I hope I didn't come across as condescending explaining OoS to you if you already knew that.
Well, no. It doesn't feel that way, if only because I technically asked for the specifics this way. Regardless, thank you for clarifying that.
 

Spinosaurus

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It just feels a little off that I'm having to read this far ahead and constantly, and it makes me wonder if I'm just playing the game wrong. I'd have to look at how top players do this kind of stuff, more often. Apparently, half the time they're just taking turns at each other's shield without really getting anything straight off of it. Two of the people I play consistently play a lot of OoS. They don't overextend with grabs, and even shield grabs a lot of the time. They just tend to prefer to swing first and something like like a Nair OoS (with Wario or Ridley, in this case).
You're pretty much getting it. This is how it is with pretty much every other traditional fighter, when you're blocking you lost your turn and it's theirs. By that point all you have to do is wait for an opportunity to escape/they do something punishable or, if you figured out their patterns, hit them before they swing but that's mad risky this game. Remember that blocking is a disadvantaged position, so you def wanna work on avoiding getting in that situation too often.

As a general thing don't look at just punishing the endlag of a move, look at punishing start ups as well. It's obviously way harder to do, since again you have to figure out their patterns and adapt to that, but considering how moves are generally safer this game it's an exceedingly valuable skill to develop. This is also how it is in traditional fighters.
 
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