Why is Falco alot worse in PM than Melee

Im Fragbait

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Im sorry the only difference i see is the dashing other than that he feels completely the same someone halp pls.
 

Hinichii.ez.™

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Maybe because, he has been nerfed a few times, and there are more than like, 8 viable characters he has to fight against???
 

Hinichii.ez.™

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Oh and his recovery is so crap in pm ... I mean this ***** be looking like little mac
Nah its way better than his and just play better. Watch axe play falco in PM or any good falco over on melee.
 

Crulex Crystallite

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Yea the main reason is because of the roster and matchups. It's gonna take more nuance and reads than just knowing the standard falco vs. fox/marth matchups.
 

V

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Maybe it's because of reduced shield stun and laser set ups on shield aren't super free anymore?
 

G13_Flux

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the main reason is because of the buffed cast, and additional characters from brawl that were redesigned to a melee environment. however, falco did undergo a few nerfs. these nerfs dont change the core playstyle of the character, but instead force you to be more precise to get similar rewards as melee falco, these nerfs are as follows:

1.) loss of invincibility on shine.
this one is seemingly unimportant, as the invincibility in melee was only a single frame on frame 1, but this actually is a big thing at a higher level of play, as it now means that moves can clank with the shine, and characters have one more additional frame to potentially escape shield pillars (i.e. if a grab and a shine collide on the same frame, the grab wins now, whereas in melee, shine wins. similarly, up b OOS options can clank now instead of being beat every time by it.). this nerf hit fox harder since it affects his shine spike as well, and he cant just run in > CC and shine.

2.) lasers decay in damage based on distance.
all this means is that camping yields less of a damage reward. its rather minute for falco, and hit fox harder since laser camping for damage was a bigger thing for his faster lasers.

3.) dair now has a sourspot.
doesnt mean you cant get the same kills, or the same gimps, but it means that you cant just throw a dair out offstage and have it last for 20 minutes, all the while still retaining the same hitbox size and spiking ability. now falcos foot sticks out from the hitbox and theres a negative disjoint, meaning that many recoveries will be able to beef through the sourspot. this forces you to be more patient and precise.

not game breaking, but just makes the MUs tighter and more fun, and less of a sh** show for some characters. but nonetheless, yes, this makes falco worse compared to melee.

Maybe it's because of reduced shield stun and laser set ups on shield aren't super free anymore?
theres no reduced shield stun, and laser set ups are the same on shield that they were in melee.
 
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Im Fragbait

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the main reason is because of the buffed cast, and additional characters from brawl that were redesigned to a melee environment. however, falco did undergo a few nerfs. these nerfs dont change the core playstyle of the character, but instead force you to be more precise to get similar rewards as melee falco, these nerfs are as follows:

1.) loss of invincibility on shine.
this one is seemingly unimportant, as the invincibility in melee was only a single frame on frame 1, but this actually is a big thing at a higher level of play, as it now means that moves can clank with the shine, and characters have one more additional frame to potentially escape shield pillars (i.e. if a grab and a shine collide on the same frame, the grab wins now, whereas in melee, shine wins. similarly, up b OOS options can clank now instead of being beat every time by it.). this nerf hit fox harder since it affects his shine spike as well, and he cant just run in > CC and shine.

2.) lasers decay in damage based on distance.
all this means is that camping yields less of a damage reward. its rather minute for falco, and hit fox harder since laser camping for damage was a bigger thing for his faster lasers.

3.) dair now has a sourspot.
doesnt mean you cant get the same kills, or the same gimps, but it means that you cant just throw a dair out offstage and have it last for 20 minutes, all the while still retaining the same hitbox size and spiking ability. now falcos foot sticks out from the hitbox and theres a negative disjoint, meaning that many recoveries will be able to beef through the sourspot. this forces you to be more patient and precise.

not game breaking, but just makes the MUs tighter and more fun, and less of a sh** show for some characters. but nonetheless, yes, this makes falco worse compared to melee.



theres no reduced shield stun, and laser set ups are the same on shield that they were in melee.
OMG THATS WHY MY BROTHER KEEPS GRABBING ME WHEN I SHINE HIM JESUS THAT GETS ANNOYING GIVEN HE PLAYS MARTH ANYWAYS GREAT POST THANKS FOR INFO
 

reportingsfnoobs

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Was Falco and Fox's shine invincibility ever implemented in PM to begin with, or was it taken off during a patch?
 

reportingsfnoobs

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Also, I noticed that sometimes Falco's laser does 0% at long range. I know that the damage is decreased the farther it has to travel, but come on, 0%? It should 1% at max. This doesn't bother me at all, but it just makes sense for a laser to do some kind of damage.
 

G13_Flux

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Invincibility was taken off in 3.0 iirc. The 0% I'm pretty sure is cuz of staling
 

Strong Badam

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The lack of shine invincibility and damage decay on lasers was implemented in 2.6.
 
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Lizalfos

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The laser does a half of a percent. I think that recovery was restored in 3.5, and I am unaware to any change to his dash.

Shine invincibility wouldn't help with Marth's grab even in Melee, yo spacin just bad.
 

G13_Flux

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The laser does a half of a percent. I think that recovery was restored in 3.5, and I am unaware to any change to his dash.

Shine invincibility wouldn't help with Marth's grab even in Melee, yo spacin just bad.
i mean it does give you an entire frame that marth cant grab you on. it helps in avoiding any grabs to an extent.
 

Lizalfos

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If your shield pressure is good enough you really shouldn't have this problem though. Falco is still really good in the fact that lasers disrupt movement and shine still essentially does what it used to.

The main thing that hurts him is that there are so many other characters that are viable. 3.5 was a net buff for him though, since almost everyone else was hurt to a greater extent than him.
 
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TTTTTsd

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I think more than any nerfs and adjustments, Falco is worse because of the cast and their strengths relative to his.

Chaingrabbing, most of the cast having better recoveries, gimping being easier in some instances, an expanded roster and more viable characters primarily due to the idea of promoting a flexible meta...

This adds up against Falco rather than Fox and it's really only because Falco's kit isn't as versatile as Fox's, and now the overall cast has more answers to it. The reason Fox is doing so good and is probably one of if not the best in the game still is because of the versatility he packs. This isn't to say Falco ISN'T versatile but obviously he doesn't have the dominating power Fox has. I mean, Falco's MUs against the tops of Melee are closer than Fox's overall, so this kind of makes itself clear from that.

Basically Falco falls from his grace as 2nd best only because he was 2nd best in a game where characters weren't designed to fight each other in this sort of meta. The minute you consciously design a game like this, Falco is not as dominant IMO.

If you ask me, he's still good (mid-high, if not still high tier). He will always be Falco.
 
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G13_Flux

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If your shield pressure is good enough you really shouldn't have this problem though. Falco is still really good in the fact that lasers disrupt movement and shine still essentially does what it used to.

The main thing that hurts him is that there are so many other characters that are viable. 3.5 was a net buff for him though, since almost everyone else was hurt to a greater extent than him.
well yes, falcos shield pressure is still insane. nonetheless, thats still an entire extra frame that allows for people to potentially shield grab him, and in the scope of reaction timings, that can be a big thing for some.

but the additional cast of viable characters is most certainly the biggest thing to affect him, ive already agreed with that. but i dont think 3.5 was a net buff for him. the dair sourspot change is quite a noticeable change to dedicated falco mains, and makes you seriously rethink certain approaches and requires more precision when edge guarding. i still think falco is top tier, but the fact that characters can actually force more than just a trade at best now when falco dairs is quite a big thing, and changes a lot of dynamics despite the nerfs to the cast on a whole.
 

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Falco has gained more options in comparison to Melee, despite some of his Melee tools being nerfed and the cast being given anti-FF technology.

RARing, B-Reversals, Wavebouncing, DACUSing are some options he has with pretty big potential but is severely underused because people are still relying on melee-honed techskill and meta.
 

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It's not seen as much on Falco, since he's not always fast enough (mobility to be more clear) to make some choices ridic good. Full run RAR Bair for edgeguards is harder to pull off than other faster chars

DACUS is legit underused though, with a couple of chars.
 
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GHNeko

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I feel B-Reversed lasers are ridic under used for Falco.

Retreating into B-Reversed SH Lasers are pretty useful for controlling the neutral while remaining in constant motion. I think it also gives him extra options up close since he can B-Reverse right into your face.
 

trilok

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There have been several nerfs to falco mentioned which hurt him, but also the buffs on the others in the cast have changed the interactions to reward dynamic.
Melee falco was good because of his dominance in the neutral, good shield pressure, and decent combo game.
On the flipside, he was relativly touch deathed by many of the cast, easy to gimp, and had bad recovering potential.
In Project M, they nerfed his neutral and shield pressure slightly, while weakening his punish game a bit by nerfing the dair
This wouldn't be so bad if other characters options were held constant, so he would still have a good neutral/shield pressure/ and combo game.
However, so many of the other characters got buffs to their neutral, options in general, recovery, and punishment game that the dynamic changed.
Instead of dominance in the neutral, he was just a bit better than most, and some characters have their own tools to challenge him.
Instead of good shield pressure, its slightly worse and more characters have options to deal with it.
Melee falco was able to win more interactions, and he generally needed more interactions and openings to take a stock while his opponent needs much less.
Compared to melee, PM falco wins less interactions , needs more interactions to take off a stock due to weakened punish game and generally better recovery options of the cast.
Compared to melee the opponents in PM generally need less interactions to kill falco, they have better tools to kill and combo falco, and it requires less precision and finesse to execute combos to kill falco.

As a long time spacies main in Melee, after analyzing the interactions to reward ratio and general options of the cast including recovery, it was obvious to me to switch characters in PM. Spacies are vastly overrated, mostly coming from ignorance.

tldr; Melee falco was a glass cannon. PM falco is glass facing cannons.
 

GHNeko

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A Majority his nerfs arent really major. The biggest one so far is the Dair nerf.

I do feel that saying that (if i'm interpreting this right) "Spaces are vastly overrated, mostly coming form ignorance." is a 2 way street. Most people are going to be more familiar with the Spacie MU and common spacie play (I say common, because I feel that there are no new age spacies that utilize the new global tools enough.), and that most spacie players haven't learned/earned enough experience for all the new character MUs and the drastically altered MUs.

So a player who played Melee for 6 years that picks up PM Lucas is in general going to have an easier time against a 6 year Falco main from Melee who's just picking up PM.

Falco has less potent tools, but more tools overall so his skill ceiling has risen meaning that even the best Falco's have MORE room to improve.
 

lordhelmet

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Most PM Falcos are BAD. Like most Melee Falcons, they try to directly port their character while refusing to explore new options. PM Falco has a ton of laser options, insane jab, and a strong uair.

Melee vets are still very good, but I think they will get worse with time (PM characters are just so unexplored atm).
 

trilok

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A Majority his nerfs arent really major. The biggest one so far is the Dair nerf.

I do feel that saying that (if i'm interpreting this right) "Spaces are vastly overrated, mostly coming form ignorance." is a 2 way street. Most people are going to be more familiar with the Spacie MU and common spacie play (I say common, because I feel that there are no new age spacies that utilize the new global tools enough.), and that most spacie players haven't learned/earned enough experience for all the new character MUs and the drastically altered MUs.

So a player who played Melee for 6 years that picks up PM Lucas is in general going to have an easier time against a 6 year Falco main from Melee who's just picking up PM.

Falco has less potent tools, but more tools overall so his skill ceiling has risen meaning that even the best Falco's have MORE room to improve.
I agree that his nerfs are really not that major, but the buffs of the other cast change the dynamic of the interactions/punishment/neutral of the matchups enough that even though falco is still better to slightly better in the neutral, the interactions to stock loss ratio seem to favor other characters compared to melee.

Falco does have more tools, however those tools don't really change the main aspects of why he is worse just like how the nerfs so far really arent the main reason why he is worse compared to melee.
There are several possible reasons why you dont see these tools being used:
-Melee players not caring to learn.
-extra tools could have or people think they have niche uses or overshadowed by other options already existing
-The people who would be good/competitive falcos switch mains due to better characters existing regardless of these tools. those same people could have implemented these new tools but for the better characters.

I'm not saying id be a top/good falco , but I noticed the change in dynamic and switched over to practicing other pm mains. I did put in the time to learn the newer mechanics and I use them with PM mains, but they didnt all of a sudden reverse the change in dynamic from PM that I have been talking about which is really the main issue.
 
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-Ronin-

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As previously mentioned, the Dair nerf is pretty big, depending on your playstyle and how you want to take your opponent's stock. The most annoying thing about this nerf is when you try to shine -> Dair your opponents offstage. While this works in Melee, it doesn't work so good in PM. While this might not seem big, just wait till you try it for the style points. You'll see what I mean. There's also the ceiling nerf I heard about some time ago, but I have no idea if that's true or not.
 

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Just wondering, is Falcos dacus one of those where you have to use an attack button, or one where you can use Z (Snake in Brawl)? I struggle with the attack button ones.

Also, how do you guys use his jab in this game? I generally just do jab 1 into stuff like melee. Is the full thing good or does it just get punished like most multi hit jabs?
 

Boomhound

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Technically speaking there's usually a better option than jab but it still has its niche uses.

Outside of jab-reset I use it if my opponent is in a tumble animation in the air near me- it can 'reset' them in a standing position depending on weight and/or % where you can follow up with a grab or smash.
 

FireBall Stars

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In 3.5, all DACUSes have a 2 frame window and the Z button no longer "cuts" 1 frame from the DACUS window, so you can perform any character's dacus usmash with Z if you do wish so.
 

ProdigyX5

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As a falco main steady in PM and Melee, I can agree that he's been so drastically nerfed compared to the rest of the cast.

However, unlike Sm4sh's Falco, he hasn't been drastically nerfed to the point of tier dropping lower than Mario.

In PM, he's gained a couple new chain grabs/ jab resets into chain grabs, and a lot of precision and he's required to constantly pressure his opponent, which suits my play style.

The laser damage is ignorable, as Falco still has that MLG Stun with his lasers.

IMO, to fully make him viable, they could edit his move set again

A melee moveset really doesn't suit him in most situations, especially his Fair, compared to Brawls Air game, I preferred that moveset a lot more as his fair could be l-canceled in PM into a punish.

But that's just me
 

Thor

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Also, I noticed that sometimes Falco's laser does 0% at long range. I know that the damage is decreased the farther it has to travel, but come on, 0%? It should 1% at max. This doesn't bother me at all, but it just makes sense for a laser to do some kind of damage.
Everything in Smash does fractional damage. We don't track that stuff usually, but lasers demonstrate this. The laser + stale moves means you might do only .6% with a laser, and so if you hit with two, it will read .6% (rounds up to 1%), and then 1.2% (rounds down to 1%) implying no damage was taken, but damage was indeed taken. If it starts at 0% and still reads 0%, the laser did .4999999[whatever the cap is]9% or less due to laser staling over distance.

As a falco main steady in PM and Melee, I can agree that he's been so drastically nerfed compared to the rest of the cast.

However, unlike Sm4sh's Falco, he hasn't been drastically nerfed to the point of tier dropping lower than Mario.

In PM, he's gained a couple new chain grabs/ jab resets into chain grabs, and a lot of precision and he's required to constantly pressure his opponent, which suits my play style.

The laser damage is ignorable, as Falco still has that MLG Stun with his lasers.

IMO, to fully make him viable, they could edit his move set again

A melee moveset really doesn't suit him in most situations, especially his Fair, compared to Brawls Air game, I preferred that moveset a lot more as his fair could be l-canceled in PM into a punish.

But that's just me
Falco deserved to be nerfed relatively to the rest of the cast. If you ever played a mid-tier vs a competent Falco you'd see Melee is not a fair fight. Falco still wins most [probably all, sans the Melee ones and maybe a few new ones that are probably even] MUs, but only slightly [or by a lot, but having to be good at them, ex: Falcon], as opposed to blowing out 90% of the cast.

Falco is already fully viable, unless you mean "the best character in the game", at which point we just need to remove Fox [and maybe not even that, since Falco's DACUS is silly, along with his jab and some other new tools he has].
 

IamElise

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They should really put Falco's Brawl fair back in for PM, Falco would be so much more godly
 

Landitty

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Thor Thor - Thanks for the good info man. Hear me out-
I play Falco in Melee...After playing Falco a lot against solid competitive players in Project M 3.6, I feel that he's like 90% of what he should be. That thing that you described in Melee- trying to force a mid tier character against a super solid top tier character- to me, that's a very similar sensation to playing Falco in Project M. Doable, yes. But when playing at a high level, just not QUITE good enough to have a really fair matchup between say a really good Snake or Diddy or Rob player. But it's hard to describe. It's not necessarily as dramatic as I might be making it sound. It's just this feeling of always struggling to set the pace of the neutral and having to be TOO careful, like in Melee when playing a solid Ganondorf against an extremely aggressive waveshine heavy Fox. It's certainly doable if your good enough...but PM Falco just doesn't seem to get as good of mileage as he should, like he needs more options. We're talking Meta game hear, sometimes it's hard to put into words. Shortening the duration of his down air's spiking potentcy was rough...Down air spiking already takes a LOT of presiscion to land against the wacky recovery moves of the cast, and decreasing it's duration makes this even harder. Decreasing laser damage by distance...was that really nessecary? I don't think so. All in all, the other characters in Project M are certainly not lacking the tools to fight Falco at his full potential from Melee, but rather, I feel he is missing some of the tools needed to really fight them. That being said, it could just be that we have just not put enough time into Project M 3.6 is Falco yet, and that may be the people on the PM team really knew what they were doing with the nerfs. That's not what my gut is telling me...my gut feels that Falco is now missing what he needs to be truly potent in Project M in the long run, like they should have just left him as he was in Melee, and then buffed all the other characters to be at his level. But I could be wrong. I guess at this point only time will tell.
 
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Denjinpachi

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Realistically, I'd say that falco caught the hardest part of the nerf bat along with Fox. To be real, the things that made them severely over powered were the shine, and maybe the laser game. They didn't need to reduce so much impact/kill power off of their smash attacks and aerials. I mean, the other members of the cast needed an opportunity to escape shine pressure from both characters. The whole cast got the reprieve when the 1 frame of invulnerability was removed, and grab armor windows were introduced for everyones standard grab.

I can see why lasers could be an issue, but in the end, the nerf to their damage will literally only make people use them more because they have to make up for the damage they aren't doing. And im sure im not exaggerating when I say that people literally use spacies as their training dummies. For practice, and in real matches, spacies are probably the characters that are used as a constant when people practice their combos, and kill options. So they are also subject to being analyzed to be beaten. Even if one is more common than the other, they all can get hit with something soley because of their falling speed. So, now because so many characters have this nearly centralized idea to zero-to-death spacies, they should at least be able to defend themselves when they have the openings made. The only Fox that is consistently a threat in PM is Lucky. And that's because he's just a dead set fox main with years with prior melee experience with the character.

In the end, what I would've liked to have seen was that spacies had to commit, but the commitment had a payoff that rewarded it. Now, moves like Falco's F-Smash, B-Air, D-Air, and even N-Air only kill characters on average at around 100+ percent. And that's assuming Battlefield is the constant, and they are hitting an opponent near, on, or above the ledge. Of course, D-Air being the exception if you manage to hit its early sweetspot. I'm just saying, the risks should be worth the reward. Before, they had too much for free, now they have to do too much for less than what they put in.
 

Landitty

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Denjinpachi Denjinpachi "I'm just saying, the risks should be worth the reward. Before, they had too much for free, now they have to do too much for less than what they put in."
Yes I agree this is how I have been feeling too. They got a little bit too much for free in Melee, but in PM, they don't get as much as they should in return for the massive amount of effort that is required to be technically skilled with Fox &/or Falco.
 
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Denjinpachi

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Denjinpachi Denjinpachi "I'm just saying, the risks should be worth the reward. Before, they had too much for free, now they have to do too much for less than what they put in."
Yes I agree this is how I have been feeling too. They got a little bit too much for free in Melee, but in PM, they don't get as much as they should in return for the massive amount of effort that is required to be technically skilled with Fox &/or Falco.
exactly man. I don't mind them being drawn back a bit, but having them be worse than PAL is too much. And I really do feel like everyone else is centralized on killing a space animal. Might be a little short sighted, but I still think theres some accuracy to the claim.
 

Landitty

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exactly man. I don't mind them being drawn back a bit, but having them be worse than PAL is too much. And I really do feel like everyone else is centralized on killing a space animal. Might be a little short sighted, but I still think theres some accuracy to the claim.
I don't think that that is shortsighted by any means. The competitive PM players that I meet with now and then (who play Ganondorf, Charizard, Snake, Diddy, etc...) practice all of their combos on Fox & Falco, all day. This isn't a bad thing, people need to know how to punish spacies so that it forces us to be on point! But I just feel like they took away the slight edge that Fox and Falco need to be able to fight back when someone really knows the matchup well. Because that's when the river meets the road. It's that moment in the match where you suddenly realize that this person is an expert on the destroying of space animals, and that's where one of 2 things need to happen- you either get whooped, or you pull out all of those countless hours of practice and start being clever and technical enough to make a comeback. But as of PM 3.6...there doesn't seem to be as much room to be able to make that comeback, do to the lack of so called "overpowered" tools that in reality are hard as hell to be good at using well in the first place! The question is...stuck with 3.6, what do we do now? I find the idea of playing Falco in the PM enviroment really cool- a fresh playfield with new challenges and matchups. But is it worth playing them instead of just picking up Game & Watch or Rob? I seem to get better results sometimes just playing a basic spacing game with those two then I do playing a technichal Falco. I wonder if it's worth the effort. That's my conundrum. Is Falco just there to be cool? Or is he going to be able to keep getting top tier results if we figure him out?
 
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Denjinpachi

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I don't think that that is shortsighted by any means. The competitive PM players that I meet with now and then practice all of their combos on Fox & Falco, all day. This isn't a bad thing, people need to know how to punish spacies so that it forces us to be on point! But I just feel like they took away the slight edge that Fox and Falco need to be able to fight back when someone really knows the matchup well. Because that's when the river meets the road. It's that moment in the match where you suddenly realize that this person is an expert on the destroying space animals, and that's where one of 2 things need to happen- you either get whooped, or you pull out all of those countless hours of practice and start being clever and technical enough to make a comeback. But as of PM 3.6...there doesn't seem to be as much room to be able to make that comeback, do to the lack of so called "overpowered" tools that in reality are hard as hell to be good at using well in the first place!
Im fine with someone being really good against space animals. But, if a person is going to have a near dead set strategy on my character, I should be able to have one on theirs, or at least have a generally reliable plan. It feels like falco can't really edge guard unless he, in this order: Sends the opponent either 3/4 to the blast zone, spams laser to stop momentum, grab the ledge, then deal with whatever resource they may have left (Glide, tether, AGT, up-b) then risk getting hit while attempting to do something as simple as back air to ledge guard.

But, as an example im more than familiar with doing to people, King D3 on the flip side can inhale/grab someone, throw/spit them off stage, jump off, fair once or twice, then boom that's it. I think its funny, I like it, but c'mon Falco should at least be able to have reliable follow ups with his dair to kill someone off stage or above the ledge. They already made it smaller, they could've left the spike window the same. Only real thing I can be grateful for, as a spacie player in general, there won't be any more nerfs.
 

prem

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Sep 28, 2014
Messages
86
Location
Bay area, California
Falco's dair is melee dair with the size reduction, it isnt pal dair.

Their kill power wasnt nerfed at all, just heavier characters are more viable. people who died at 90 from falco's fsmash were either di-ing awfully or were fox / jiggly (which still happens the same).

and falco can still edge guard fine against a large majority of this cast. you just need to abuse ledge invincibility at the right time to kill them. bair is bigger than most characters recovery hitboxes and honestly its somewhat easy to flow chart an edge guard on the entire cast outside of a select few who have stupid recoveries.
 

Landitty

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jan 9, 2015
Messages
33
Location
Colorado
Im fine with someone being really good against space animals. But, if a person is going to have a near dead set strategy on my character, I should be able to have one on theirs, or at least have a generally reliable plan. It feels like falco can't really edge guard unless he, in this order: Sends the opponent either 3/4 to the blast zone, spams laser to stop momentum, grab the ledge, then deal with whatever resource they may have left (Glide, tether, AGT, up-b) then risk getting hit while attempting to do something as simple as back air to ledge guard.

But, as an example im more than familiar with doing to people, King D3 on the flip side can inhale/grab someone, throw/spit them off stage, jump off, fair once or twice, then boom that's it. I think its funny, I like it, but c'mon Falco should at least be able to have reliable follow ups with his dair to kill someone off stage or above the ledge. They already made it smaller, they could've left the spike window the same. Only real thing I can be grateful for, as a spacie player in general, there won't be any more nerfs.
True true, this is the version we are stuck with now and at least their won't be anymore nerfs. That's a great way of putting it though- if somebody has multiple perfectly usable zero to death plans for Falco (same goes for Fox), then he should also have those for them! This has actually been really productive. I think that is what we need to work on as Falco/Fox players in PM. Other characters have really put in a lot of time now figuring out perfect zero to death setups and the matchup against Spacies in general. I guess if we want to keep playing Falco & Fox in this game, we're just gonna have to do the same, like aMsA did with Yoshi in Melee. It may be harder in this game now. But it might be worth it
 
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