Why is DK considered to be the worst?

[33percentgod]

DK is def not the worst character in the game, but he's still too fat, too slow, and has too bad of a neutral game to be good.

Being fast doesn't automatically mean you're a higher class.

 

[Man Li Gi]

I have a video from stream where I could show you why. Just you wait. Never have I been so salty.

 

[L9999]

Wait......... What about ?

Well, in that game Giant Punch didn't make you fall helpless in the air and he had a grab release 0-to-death chaingrab.

 

[Quillion]

DK's a Mighty Glacier. They always suck.

 

[C3CC]

Is there a professional Smasher in the competitive scene named Average Joe that mains Donkey Kong? Or maybe a member in the forums? I got totally and completely wrecked by him last night on For Glory. He zero-to-deathed me like four times, and the worst part is that I would make him go up to 150%+ damage and wouldn't even get a stock from him. I was so mad...

 

[MegaBlaster1234]

Is there a professional Smasher in the competitive scene named Average Joe that mains Donkey Kong? Or maybe a member in the forums? I got totally and completely wrecked by him last night on For Glory. He zero-to-deathed me like four times, and the worst part is that I would make him go up to 150%+ damage and wouldn't even get a stock from him. I was so mad...

Average Joe is one of the most prominent and successful DK mains in Smash 4 right now. He places high in tournaments and whenever he plays customs he goes nuts with Kong Cyclone. He recently beat Boss's Luigi in Grand Finals of the VGBootcamp tournament.

 

[C3CC]

Average Joe is one of the most prominent and successful DK mains in Smash 4 right now. He places high in tournaments and whenever he plays customs he goes nuts with Kong Cyclone. He recently beat Boss's Luigi in Grand Finals of the VGBootcamp tournament.

OH. That makes much sense now. No wonder I couldn't even get a stock from his Donkey Kong. I did manage to beat his Mewtwo twice, though

 

[GiMiX]

Playing DK you tend to get comboed up until higher percents before it's your turn to start swinging because of his size and poor escape options. I've had a ton of for Glory matches where I'd get taken to 100% and then 2 stocked the guy because he couldn't land any kill moves. Because the weight classes in this game aren't far enough apart I believe that speed is actually a very big deal in defining tiers. Most characters have kill moves that kill at 100%. Faster characters have a better time building that damage and true comboing into kill moves.

I feel like Nintendo may also be taking 4 player battles in consideration when balancing characters, using DK and Ike in free for all I get way more kills than when I use say sheik.

 

[Omegascizor456]

He's not xD But he is sluggish and easy to combo...

 

[Dark Phazon]

There is something about DK that i dont experience with other heavies is that once im getting combo'd i cant get out...and on top of that its difficult to prevent a rushdown...

I think its to do with his fallspeed/air mobility/ just how he feels in the air...its very slow and floaty like....it just makes him get wrecked...

No one can do that to me to that extent when i am Bowser or Ganon.

Intresting thread though i cant quite put my finger on it also why DK is just lightweight...for the heavyweights...if you know what i mean..
Lacking...

He is definitely not the worse in the game.

 

[Miracle BugCatcherJay]

To say he's the worst is down right stupid. Every character is good if you know how to use them. Tiers are dumb. Just salty people who vote against certain characters because they can't beat them in For Glory. Speed doesn't always mean win. Ganon and DDD good examples. Don't look at tiers just git gud.

 

[E-Mann]

To say he's the worst is down right stupid. Every character is good if you know how to use them. Tiers are dumb. Just salty people who vote against certain characters because they can't beat them in For Glory. Speed doesn't always mean win. Ganon and DDD good examples. Don't look at tiers just git gud.

I agree.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

To say he's the worst is down right stupid. Every character is good if you know how to use them. Tiers are dumb. Just salty people who vote against certain characters because they can't beat them in For Glory. Speed doesn't always mean win. Ganon and DDD good examples. Don't look at tiers just git gud.

Tier list is nothing more (or less) than ranking of characters from best to worst based on match-ups and overall strength. You can say "git gud" all you want, but bottom line is, a top level DK player will win 3-4/10 against a top level ZSS/Luigi/villager/sonic/"hard-to-touch-or-good-at-killing-with-amazing-neutral" type players and characters.

 

[Miracle BugCatcherJay]

Tier list is nothing more (or less) than ranking of characters from best to worst based on match-ups and overall strength. You can say "git gud" all you want, but bottom line is, a top level DK player will win 3-4/10 against a top level ZSS/Luigi/villager/sonic/"hard-to-touch-or-good-at-killing-with-amazing-neutral" type players and characters.

All depends on the character my friend. So many factors in this game I honestly believe any character can beat any character. If what I'm saying isn't true, why do people main characters like DK? Don't H8 M8

 

[Baby_Sneak]

All depends on the character my friend. So many factors in this game I honestly believe any character can beat any character. If what I'm saying isn't true, why do people main characters like DK? Don't H8 M8

Any character can beat any character, but at high-top level play, we will see (and have seen from other fighting games) less and less of that. Sheik, ZSS, pika, wario, rosa, sonic, fox, diddy, and more will start to break away from the pack at that level, and will be MUCH MUCH harder for people who main Duck Hunt, kirby, D3, DK, ganondorf, Ike, Marth, mew2, WFT, zelda, doc mario, -and such to outperform top tier characters.
EDIT: oh, and people play DK becuz he's fun for them. Of course, those who are dedicated enough with him will win games and maybe even take sets off of players at nationals. But, as the meta progresses, we will see fewer of these players since the skill gap will have to become noticeable and at top level player, there really won't be any noticeable skill gap.

 

[Miracle BugCatcherJay]

Any character can beat any character, but at high-top level play, we will see (and have seen from other fighting games) less and less of that. Sheik, ZSS, pika, wario, rosa, sonic, fox, diddy, and more will start to break away from the pack at that level, and will be MUCH MUCH harder for people who main Duck Hunt, kirby, D3, DK, ganondorf, Ike, Marth, mew2, WFT, zelda, doc mario, -and such to outperform top tier characters.
EDIT: oh, and people play DK becuz he's fun for them. Of course, those who are dedicated enough with him will win games and maybe even take sets off of players at nationals. But, as the meta progresses, we will see fewer of these players since the skill gap will have to become noticeable and at top level player, there really won't be any noticeable skill gap.

I'm not denying there are characters better than others, I just think tiers are bullcrap. Just mainstreams the hell out of a more popular character. You gotta put yourself in the shoes of a low tier main just for a sec.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

I'm not denying there are characters better than others, I just think tiers are bullcrap. Just mainstreams the hell out of a more popular character. You gotta put yourself in the shoes of a low tier main just for a sec.

I guess you don't know that I mained Falco for a bit?
And tier lilts aren't like "this character beats that character next to'em" it's more like "this character has slightly better MU spread than the character behind'em".
EDIT: and that's the nature if tier lists. People want to play top tier characters in order to win.

 

[Miracle BugCatcherJay]

Fair enough, doesn't mean I have to like it. If you're convinced by a tier list you need to git gud a little.

 

[FP-Takyon]

DK is really good in this game. He's combo food, sure, but proper spacing puts him on point.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Fair enough, doesn't mean I have to like it. If you're convinced by a tier list you need to git gud a little.

I don't get this sentence.

Believing in tier lists means to accept some characters are better than others.

I don't know why you said this. I'm confused.

 

[Miracle BugCatcherJay]

Dude it's like 2:30 I don't even know what I'm saying anymore XD

 

[E-Mann]

Tier list is nothing more (or less) than ranking of characters from best to worst based on match-ups and overall strength. You can say "git gud" all you want, but bottom line is, a top level DK player will win 3-4/10 against a top level ZSS/Luigi/villager/sonic/"hard-to-touch-or-good-at-killing-with-amazing-neutral" type players and characters.

So, you mean how easy a character can be played, then.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

So, you mean how easy a character can be played, then.

No, difficulty is not a factor that is put into tiers. It's only the character's overall power at the highest level that decides were that character falls on the tier list.

 

[GiMiX]

Here's a scenario to assist with understanding of tiers.

Let's say this game featured clones of mario and there was only one move, f smash.
If a character had an f-smash that came out twice as fast and did nearly the same damage as mario, they would clearly be a a higher tier.
This is not to say that you couldn't beat the high tier character with mario, it's just going to be more difficult and you can't afford to make as many mistakes.

Obviously there are other variables at play in this game like weight, reach, projectiles, recovery, etc. However some attributes bring more value to the table in a one on one scenario.
Nothing is truly equal. Not even semi clones like marth and lucina. This is the cost of individuality.

 

[DaRkJaWs]

I can say with absolute certainty after 6 months of playing that DK is a SOLID mid tier character, not just a weak one or even low to mid tier. He's solid. He can do well against some of the higher tier characters, but he also has some bad matchups. Sonic, yoshi, zss, diddy, maybe rob, maybe sheik, are incredibly difficult to deal with at the highest levels, and he has other matchups that are not easy. I'll have to revisit the other thread to put my own views out there on this.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

I can say with absolute certainty after 6 months of playing that DK is a SOLID mid tier character, not just a weak one or even low to mid tier. He's solid. He can do well against some of the higher tier characters, but he also has some bad matchups. Sonic, yoshi, zss, diddy, maybe rob, maybe sheik, are incredibly difficult to deal with at the highest levels, and he has other matchups that are not easy. I'll have to revisit the other thread to put my own views out there on this.

How can DK control space when his Bair only reaches directly behind him, his Nair is short ranged, and his tilts (except dtilt) has some endlag to them?

 

[DaRkJaWs]

I'll be honest with you, there's maybe two other dks out there that use back air effectively other than me, and I do it better than anyone. You can control space just fine, just l2p. Try to throw out a lot of jabs with dk as opposed to either his forward or down tilt as it's much quicker, do a lot of pivot ftilts, pivot fsmashes and pivot grabs, and mix up the approach with back air, I myself have 6 different options after the first running short hop back kick. One is to jump away from them and then do a b reverse headbutt as you land, another is to throw out another kick, another is to simply headbutt after the first kick, another is to throw out a giant punch after the first kick (same direction or turn around), and finally you can charge punch after the first kick and immediately roll left or right, from where you can do different mixups (grab, jab, back kick again, etc).

 

[GiMiX]

@ Baby_Sneak His bair has a solid lingering hit box and speed bruh...out of all the characters I use I'd say his is the best.
It combos into itself, can be done twice on a short hop, decent lingering hit box AND kills. Try retreating with the bairs or poking with end of it and jumping to safety.
You can try using Uair after a missed light hop bair, depending on their position as well.

His jab is pretty good and underused. I usually end up getting two loops before the guy decides to back off.
Running back for a split second and then using a Jump cancelled reverse up B can be useful depending on who you're fighting. Maybe it's just me I like up b

 

[Baby_Sneak]

What archetype do you DK mains DK falls in? I've always wondered about DK's identity when bowser, Ganon, and Zard are in the game (D3 is nothing more than a king of edge guarding).

 

[Man Li Gi]

What archetype do you DK mains DK falls in? I've always wondered about DK's identity when bowser, Ganon, and Zard are in the game (D3 is nothing more than a king of edge guarding).

A mid range zoner. He has tools to keep you out of his mid range.... on the ground, but if he's taken out of his comfort zone, all of his tools are now garbage. Playing someone who has a projectile and can cover landings (most of top/high tier) makes playing DK all the more harder. With the higher falling speed, his bair isn't as good and add that it has 18 frames of Landing Lag.....yuck.

 

[DaRkJaWs]

You have to accept as a dk that you're going to get juggled but you also have to believe that a few good hits will get them exactly the the % you are.

 

[Man Li Gi]

You have to accept as a dk that you're going to get juggled but you also have to believe that a few good hits will get them exactly the the % you are.

Dude, that's every heavy. Get a few hits and they're the same....but the flaw is that with heavies, you have bad frame data, and someone who plays the rushdown or zone breaker or zoning type, your biggest asset (your ability to soak hits) is muted by the extreme damage you can take before someone lets up. Pretty much, playing a heavy relies on your opponent messing up (or MU inexperience) and then you properly capitalize. In fact, for this reason, the heavies need to have good range and power.

 

[DaRkJaWs]

Dude, that's every heavy. Get a few hits and they're the same....but the flaw is that with heavies, you have bad frame data, and someone who plays the rushdown or zone breaker or zoning type, your biggest asset (your ability to soak hits) is muted by the extreme damage you can take before someone lets up. Pretty much, playing a heavy relies on your opponent messing up (or MU inexperience) and then you properly capitalize. In fact, for this reason, the heavies need to have good range and power.

There is no bad frame data on either jab, which does a total of 10 damage and allows follow ups, or on up tilt, try spamming those more than other moves at low %s.

 

[Man Li Gi]

There is no bad frame data on either jab, which does a total of 10 damage and allows follow ups, or on up tilt, try spamming those more than other moves at low %s.

Frame 5 jab on jab one that has like no push back and shield damage. Yeah it has followups, but also is slow and can whiff and poorly ranged.

 

[DaRkJaWs]

The range on it is actually not bad at all, why do you think people use it as a tool to reel people in for the grab? You're just trying to keep the characters that try to rush you down to grab you from doing so, and the least laggiest tools (which still requires some precision) is jab and up tilt. In brawl that was down tilt, but down tilt is definitely the worse out of the 3. And as I said, spam those moves, especially jab in particular and you'll see surprising success.

 

[Man Li Gi]

Yes, it's actually bad for frame 5 move. CF, Mario and a lot others have faster and longer ranged jabs. You get jab grab at higher percents, it's not automatic. Don't you find it a problem that DK's least laggy attack is still very laggy?

 

[DaRkJaWs]

they definitely don't have longer jabs, and dk's reaches people in the air as well. jab grab working at later percents has nothing to do with its range, which is what we are questioning. It definitely has more end lag, but try to only throw out the second jab if they are definitely in close, if you only throw out the first every time they get close to approaching they are cognizant of it and stay back. That is when you approach them, when they are afraid to get in.

 

[Man Li Gi]

jab grab was one of your points and I pointed it out. Also, Mario and CF do have longer and faster jabs. Jab 1's range is too shallow and has too much range to be respected by a good opponent. You go in when, actually before I continue, do you go to tourneys or do you spectate?

 

[DaRkJaWs]

Good lord. Jab grab is a thing because jab 1 reels them in from a not shabby distance, whether jab grab itself works at early or later percents is irrelevant for the last time, it's the length of the jab we are concerned with. I pull it off against everyone I face including my brothers pikachu, a not too shabby pikachu I might add. I actually pulled it off on the pro smash player blacktwins' Mario more than I have any other person except my brother, and in many games it was string after string of jabs. It keeps aggressive people back and it does so better than any other move without going on the offensive. I'm a better dk than most so you don't need to worry about whether I attend tournies or not.

 

[Big O]

@ DaRkJaWs and @ Man Li Gi . Not sure why there is an argument in the first place, but I just want to point out a few things.

- DK's jab is good.
- While a little slower and laggier than average, it's setup/combo potential and reach are better than average
- DK's jab is has more range than CF's, Mario's, and almost everyone jabs

You both know jab to grab is a thing and that other characters have better jabs, so I'm not sure where the misunderstanding is coming from. Optimist vs pessimist tension perhaps?