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Why is Bowser not higher on the tier list?

Mini_Mac

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As of the past few months, I have been pitted against more bowsers than usual since the discovery of new combos and techniques in the game. Before that, I never really had such a difficult time fighting Bowser but now he is a character that can be extremely difficult to beat. I've used many of my primaries and my secondaries and I always seem to struggle against a more than decent skilled Bowser player. My question is not how you beat him but really my question is this.

Why is Bowser not higher on the tier list?

I mean for real though. I don't understand why bowser is only mid-tier. Since I started playing Bowser myself (I'm not that good with him), I realized their is a lot of hidden potential in his playstyle. In terms of his moveset and strategies (and this is based off of my experience so feel free to disagree with me), he is able to capitalize on reads, get rid of pressure quickly and effectively with his grounded down-B, land consitent grabs with a dash grab (since his run speed is relatively fast) and a pivot grab (which is janky like no other), he has a lot of weight making him difficult to KO at earlier percents, he has immense power that is able to kill a bunch of the cast pretty early, he has crazy damage-racking combos that occur after an up-throw, and finally, he has the INSANE kill confirm of U-throw -> U-air that can kill very early and is extremely difficult to escape.

So yeah. Can someone explain to me why this giant turtle is not higher on the tier list?
 
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Conn1496

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He's incredibly easy to juggle and actually lacks much of a good neutral as far as I know. I actually think Bowser should be lower than he actually is on most lists because despite an amazing punish game that means a single correct bait can mean a third of your stock, he's not got much else going for him other than a solid OoS option with Whirling Fortress. Even his weight is offset by the fact he has a pretty predictable, unsafe recovery and is total combo bait.

Contrast that with Meta Knight, ZSS, and Bayonetta, great Bait/Punish characters themselves, and not only do those characters have insane 0-death potential unlike Bowser, but they also all have better mobility and other options at their disposal. For example, Meta Knight has much higher potential with strings, and has a terrifying offstage/edgeguard game. ZSS has surprisingly flexible combos with incredible payoff, and despite her predictability, certain tools can bait hard and make her incredibly hard to catch. -and Bayonetta is... -well, Bayonetta (Witch Time didn't get nerfed for nothing.).

In fact, the only thing Bowser has on these other characters is his slightly more flexible shield pressure game, which most players familiar with the match-up will be aware of and can quite easily play around. Not to mention that ZSS and especially Meta Knight have shield pressure of their own due to powerful combo-starter throws. You end up with a character that, while good, just pales in comparison to others.

I think Bowser has been overrated because of the short period of hype he had surrounding Nairo's string of upsets, and the fact that Bowser is actually a very scary, easy to underestimate character that a lot of players just still aren't quite used to fighting.
 

Mini_Mac

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He's incredibly easy to juggle and actually lacks much of a good neutral as far as I know. I actually think Bowser should be lower than he actually is on most lists because despite an amazing punish game that means a single correct bait can mean a third of your stock, he's not got much else going for him other than a solid OoS option with Whirling Fortress. Even his weight is offset by the fact he has a pretty predictable, unsafe recovery and is total combo bait.

Contrast that with Meta Knight, ZSS, and Bayonetta, great Bait/Punish characters themselves, and not only do those characters have insane 0-death potential unlike Bowser, but they also all have better mobility and other options at their disposal. For example, Meta Knight has much higher potential with strings, and has a terrifying offstage/edgeguard game. ZSS has surprisingly flexible combos with incredible payoff, and despite her predictability, certain tools can bait hard and make her incredibly hard to catch. -and Bayonetta is... -well, Bayonetta (Witch Time didn't get nerfed for nothing.).

In fact, the only thing Bowser has on these other characters is his slightly more flexible shield pressure game, which most players familiar with the match-up will be aware of and can quite easily play around. Not to mention that ZSS and especially Meta Knight have shield pressure of their own due to powerful combo-starter throws. You end up with a character that, while good, just pales in comparison to others.

I think Bowser has been overrated because of the short period of hype he had surrounding Nairo's string of upsets, and the fact that Bowser is actually a very scary, easy to underestimate character that a lot of players just still aren't quite used to fighting.
Okay. That makes perfect sense. Although I agree he has some pretty piss poor match-ups like the ones you listed, I still somewhat feel like he is a character that does extremely well when pitted against a lot of the cast. One notable MU is C. Falcon since he is able to jump to safety and avoid Falcon's most potent kill confirm after a D-throw, the knee of justice, since Falcon's D-throw is weight dependent and has more end lag when used against heavier characters such as Bowser.

And the fact that he has so many tools to his disposal that are scary is what made me question his current tier list placement. I mean I remember getting so salty one time after I got my shield broken and a fricken fully charged F-smash by him killed me at 10%! I mean come on!! Are you fricken kidding me!?!?

As of now, I'm trying to familiarize myself more with the MU so I can discover ways around Bowser's scary playstyle but as you can see below (my mains are listed), most of the characters I play as tend to struggle against Bowser because they range from light weight to medium weight and are prone to get KO'd very early by Bowser's U-throw to U-air.

I remember my last tournament where I was playing Little Mac against Bowser, I was around 70% at my last stock and Bowser was at 0% at his last stock and my heart was racing so rapidly knowing that one more grab is going to cost me the set. Luckily, he racked up more damage on me using moves other than the grab and that got me to about 120% making it so I can safely DI away from Bowser in order to avoid the U-air. I actually ended up winning that game by punishing a missed side-B with a Usmash with rage but all in all, Bowser terrifies the hell out of me even at low percents...
 

Broham

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Jan 29, 2015
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He's incredibly easy to juggle and actually lacks much of a good neutral as far as I know. I actually think Bowser should be lower than he actually is on most lists because despite an amazing punish game that means a single correct bait can mean a third of your stock, he's not got much else going for him other than a solid OoS option with Whirling Fortress. Even his weight is offset by the fact he has a pretty predictable, unsafe recovery and is total combo bait.

Contrast that with Meta Knight, ZSS, and Bayonetta, great Bait/Punish characters themselves, and not only do those characters have insane 0-death potential unlike Bowser, but they also all have better mobility and other options at their disposal. For example, Meta Knight has much higher potential with strings, and has a terrifying offstage/edgeguard game. ZSS has surprisingly flexible combos with incredible payoff, and despite her predictability, certain tools can bait hard and make her incredibly hard to catch. -and Bayonetta is... -well, Bayonetta (Witch Time didn't get nerfed for nothing.).

In fact, the only thing Bowser has on these other characters is his slightly more flexible shield pressure game, which most players familiar with the match-up will be aware of and can quite easily play around. Not to mention that ZSS and especially Meta Knight have shield pressure of their own due to powerful combo-starter throws. You end up with a character that, while good, just pales in comparison to others.

I think Bowser has been overrated because of the short period of hype he had surrounding Nairo's string of upsets, and the fact that Bowser is actually a very scary, easy to underestimate character that a lot of players just still aren't quite used to fighting.
you can't forget about all of bowser's safe shield poke options however.

A well spaced Dtilt or Jab-stalling can poke shields down FAST.
Bowser's neutral, I will admit, is on the bad end of the pool, in contrary Bowser also has the "Tough guy" passive until either 30-45% depending on exact move he's hit by. Against most of the top tier characters, such as Diddy, shiek, ZSS, MK, Bayo, Ryu, Villager, Fox, and marth, Bowser has to make at minimum 3 hits to kill them Vs their 10 hits or so to kill Bowser.

Rage also makes Bowser's killing potential ironically safer than without rage.
Getting a SideB with Bowser with 110% rage means that, unless you are on Town and city or on last stock, that 65% top tier is probably dead
 

Conn1496

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One notable MU is C. Falcon since he is able to jump to safety and avoid Falcon's most potent kill confirm after a D-throw, the knee of justice, since Falcon's D-throw is weight dependent and has more end lag when used against heavier characters such as Bowser.
This only really matters if you're relying on that set-up. As I said before, Bowser is terrible at landing, and Falcon is great at punishing bad landing options. Falcon has plenty of tools in this MU, so it's pretty obviously in Falcon's favor, even with one pretty big detriment to his combo game. This is just one thing you're having to play around compared to the many that Bowser has to.

As of now, I'm trying to familiarize myself more with the MU so I can discover ways around Bowser's scary playstyle but as you can see below (my mains are listed), most of the characters I play as tend to struggle against Bowser because they range from light weight to medium weight and are prone to get KO'd very early by Bowser's U-throw to U-air.
Weight isn't the only factor that affects KO%s from U-Throw > U-Air, but even so - again, Falcon - Falcon survives until pretty late compared to the rest of the cast. I don't think he's the best of your mains - Mac, Villager, Falcon - for the MU, but he is pretty strictly always going to be favored in this MU from everything I see, it just requires more effort than other MUs because Bowser puts Falcon in a slightly uncomfortable position in terms of playstyle. Still a favorable one, but uncomfortable.

you can't forget about all of bowser's safe shield poke options however.

A well spaced Dtilt or Jab-stalling can poke shields down FAST.
Shield pokes will only take you so far. Especially in an MU where players are looking to avoid shield anyway. I'll admit that it's another tool under Bowser's belt, but it's not noteworthy enough that it puts him above most of the cast. Jab, D-Tilt and F-Tilt are all okay options for Bowser pokes, but they're mostly bait options with some safety attached - jab being most notable for also being a confirm if it actually does hit.

Bowser also has the "Tough guy" passive until either 30-45% depending on exact move he's hit by.
It's actually constantly active - and in most MUs it makes absolutely no difference. I actually can't think of a move off the top of y head that notably gets weaker because of this passive, and I used to play Bowser quite a lot.

Against most of the top tier characters, such as Diddy, shiek, ZSS, MK, Bayo, Ryu, Villager, Fox, and marth, Bowser has to make at minimum 3 hits to kill them Vs their 10 hits or so to kill Bowser.
It's usually around 3-5 grabs depending on rage, etc. but honestly, there's no comparison. You can say they "need more hits", but those characters attacks are just outright safer or more likely to hit in the first place, so it really wouldn't matter if Bowser needed just one hit - at optimum play, Bowser will strictly lose to some of these characters because of his poor options. Villager being the key example because he can just wall Bowser out without even trying. It might take a while, but Villager ruins Bowser.

Not even counting the fact that a good portion of those actually can confirm KOs on Bowser from less than 3 hits in the first place (ZSS, Meta Knight, Bayonetta and Ryu could all potentially combo Bowser to death with a couple of good confirms before he even gets 1 grab.).
 
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Mini_Mac

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This only really matters if you're relying on that set-up. As I said before, Bowser is terrible at landing, and Falcon is great at punishing bad landing options. Falcon has plenty of tools in this MU, so it's pretty obviously in Falcon's favor, even with one pretty big detriment to his combo game. This is just one thing you're having to play around compared to the many that Bowser has to.



Weight isn't the only factor that affects KO%s from U-Throw > U-Air, but even so - again, Falcon - Falcon survives until pretty late compared to the rest of the cast. I don't think he's the best of your mains - Mac, Villager, Falcon - for the MU, but he is pretty strictly always going to be favored in this MU from everything I see, it just requires more effort than other MUs because Bowser puts Falcon in a slightly uncomfortable position in terms of playstyle. Still a favorable one, but uncomfortable.



Shield pokes will only take you so far. Especially in an MU where players are looking to avoid shield anyway. I'll admit that it's another tool under Bowser's belt, but it's not noteworthy enough that it puts him above most of the cast. Jab, D-Tilt and F-Tilt are all okay options for Bowser pokes, but they're mostly bait options with some safety attached - jab being most notable for also being a confirm if it actually does hit.



It's actually constantly active - and in most MUs it makes absolutely no difference. I actually can't think of a move off the top of y head that notably gets weaker because of this passive, and I used to play Bowser quite a lot.



It's usually around 3-5 grabs depending on rage, etc. but honestly, there's no comparison. You can say they "need more hits", but those characters attacks are just outright safer or more likely to hit in the first place, so it really wouldn't matter if Bowser needed just one hit - at optimum play, Bowser will strictly lose to some of these characters because of his poor options. Villager being the key example because he can just wall Bowser out without even trying. It might take a while, but Villager ruins Bowser.

Not even counting the fact that a good portion of those actually can confirm KOs on Bowser from less than 3 hits in the first place (ZSS, Meta Knight, Bayonetta and Ryu could all potentially combo Bowser to death with a couple of good confirms before he even gets 1 grab.).
I think you're right. Although I totally agree this is in Falcon's favor because of his strong punish game and his combo potential against a large character like Bowser, I still get scared considering Falcon also struggles at landing and Bowser's grab game is beyond jank (I get satly sometimes when I get grabbed by a stupid pivot grab that looks like it shouldnt have grabbed in the first place). Maybe their are other landing stradegies against Bowser that I can use with Falcon but the only thing I can hope is that I play mind games with him enough to the point where he wont know where I'm gonna land. A lot of good Bowser's I play against always try and grab with my back facing them so their grab wont be interscepted by my frame 2 jabs (frame 1 if I'm Little Mac) upon landing. Some even try and grab before my feet touch the ground and their janky pivot grab gives them more of an advantage.

But yeah. I see where you're coming from. Bowser does suffer in a lot of MUs but in terms of how my mains suffer from this specific MU, let me put it this way.

I think Bayonetta is Little Mac's #1 worst MU next to Mario and Rosalina but depending on how well the Bowser player is and how well he/she knows how to use him to his fullest potential, I sometimes consider Bowser to be on par with Bayonetta, Mario, and Rosalina. If I miss one hit or I miss-space anything by a pixel, that's 1/3rd to 1/2 my stock. I guess it's just a matter of building better stradegies.
 

Mario & Sonic Guy

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Bowser is a big target, and while he does pack a punch with certain attacks, their ending lag can leave Bowser vulnerable to punishment if they're ever blocked or countered. Also, Bowser lacks follow-up options, all thanks to the fact that most of his attacks have rather high knockback statistics.

He's done better than in Melee and Brawl, but Bowser will never really be a top 5 contender.
 

Mini_Mac

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Okay. Forgive me if this seems to just be a heated rant but I just got done playing 20+ games of FG against a Bowser player and he literally made the guy look top tier.

I'm not even kidding. I know Bowser has the weakness of being easy to juggle but I seriously don't think anyone can convince me otherwise that Boswer doesn't belong in top 20 at least.

Let me break down what happened. Every time I tried to approach, he was always able to find a way to get a grab and let me tell you... every grab he got induced a giant amount of salt.

When I approach, he grabs.
When I retreat, he grabs.
When I try and read where he may be while I'm trying to approach, he grabs.
When I try and land, he grabs.
When I save my double jump to mind game him in when I am going to land, he grabs.
When I try to land with an attack, he grabs (after a powershield).
When I try to get up and back on the stage, he grabs.

grabs, grabs, grabs, grabs, grabs, GRABS!!!!!!

I'm not joking around. I was starting to get really irritated and if this happened in tournament to me, I probably wouldn't mind making it into the next salty highlights video by GRsmash. Like I wouldn't even care at that point. That's how frusturating it was to deal with this guy's constant grabs.

But seriously, avoiding his grabs were IMPOSSIBLE!!!!! And it was even worse considering Bowser has the most broken pivot grab in the game which basically managed to always screw up an approach attempt.

So yeah. I am going to restate what I said originally. I once again do not understand why Bowser is only mid-tier. Yes, like I said earlier, I know he has the problem of being juggled easily and his upwards recovery is very bad (which is why I don't think he is top 5 potential) but with everything he has now like his grab game, the run speed he has for a super heavyweight, his kill confirms, his kill power, his surviveablity, his combos, his ability to screw up approaches, etc., him being only mid tier literally makes absolutely no sense to me.

I mean unless someone can possibly explain how to counter everything I mentioned about Bowser, I'm honestly going to continue feeling baffled that the community looks down on this guy who clearly seems to have more hardcore potential than any other character in the game based on my experience.

But for real though. Could someone please help me here in case I am pitted up against one of these Bowser's in toruanement? If you can prove me wrong, I will thank you dearly for it.
 

MERPIS

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Nairo makes bowser seem like a contender for top 10
I strongly believe bowser could be top 15 one day, but until then We'll just have to stick with top 20-25 for now.
 

Mini_Mac

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Nairo makes bowser seem like a contender for top 10
I strongly believe bowser could be top 15 one day, but until then We'll just have to stick with top 20-25 for now.
Meh... idk about that. Keep in mind, Bowser is not Nairo's main character. He just uses him as a secondary while he has a main character that is far superior in advantages. If it was like Deluxe Menu winning tournaments with solo Bowser similar to how players like Fatality win tournaments or make it very far with solo Captain Falcon, then I could agree with that but the results for Bowser are just not there. Yes, Nairo has won some tournaments with Bowser at pretty high level but it's very inconsistent. Keep in mind, he went Bowser against ZeRo at Smash Con but after ZeRo demolished his Bowser, Nairo had no choice but to go ZSS if he wanted to win.

Bowser's MU spread is also a big hinderence in his performance like against characters who can abuse him in the air like ZSS, Captain Falcon, Cloud, Marth, Lucina, sometimes Villager, sometimes Diddy, DEFINITELY Bayonetta, etc. Basically, Nairo is having to outplay the opponent by a large margin in order to win. Don't get me wrong. I think there is some hidden potential in Bowser and he's a pretty decent character but not as much as superior characters similar to his style like DK who is a great grappler, has superior frame data, intangible attacks, has an earlier and more flexible ding-dong window, and has the results to show for his potential from dedicated players like DKwill, Konga, Hikaru, and Tweek (as well as Larry Lurr and Ally occasionally having decent success with him).
 
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MERPIS

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Meh... idk about that. Keep in mind, Bowser is not Nairo's main character. He just uses him as a secondary while he has a main character that is far superior in advantages. If it was like Deluxe Menu winning tournaments with solo Bowser similar to how players like Fatality win tournaments or make it very far with solo Captain Falcon, then I could agree with that but the results for Bowser are just not there. Yes, Nairo has won some tournaments with Bowser at pretty high level but it's very inconsistent. Keep in mind, he went Bowser against ZeRo at Smash Con but after ZeRo demolished his Bowser, Nairo had no choice but to go ZSS if he wanted to win.

Bowser's MU spread is also a big hinderence in his performance like against characters who can abuse him in the air like ZSS, Captain Falcon, Cloud, Marth, Lucina, sometimes Villager, sometimes Diddy, DEFINITELY Bayonetta, etc. Basically, Nairo is having to outplay the opponent by a large margin in order to win. Don't get me wrong. I think there is some hidden potential in Bowser and he's a pretty decent character but not as much as superior characters similar to his style like DK who is a great grappler, has superior frame data, intangible attacks, has an earlier and more flexible ding-dong window, and has the results to show for his potential from dedicated players like DKwill, Konga, and Hikaru, and Tweek (as well as Larry Lurr and Ally occasionally having decent success with him).
Trus, also bowser's play style and linear neutral also screws with him, making him super predictable.

Also, vilager can "sometimes" abuse him
My dude, you and I both know that aint true ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°), bowser and pretty much all super heavies fear him
 

Mini_Mac

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Trus, also bowser's play style and linear neutral also screws with him, making him super predictable.

Also, vilager can "sometimes" abuse him
My dude, you and I both know that aint true ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°), bowser and pretty much all super heavies fear him
Bowser has armor that is able to deal with many projectiles like Mega Man's pellets and Luigi fireball. That is why I say sometimes. I'm not too familiar with the Villager Bowser MU but I have seen some Bowser's do some dirty work on Villager lol
 
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Bowser has armor that is able to deal with many projectiles like Mega Man's pellets and Luigi fireball. That is why I say sometimes. I'm not too familiar with the Villager Bowser MU but I have seen some Bowser's do some dirty work on Villager lol
To close this out a year later Luigi has a couple of other ways to beat Bowser Mega man is just a bad match up for him and the reasoning as to why Bowser is not higher is because Bowser is combo food and has a huge problem landing Bowser gets merkt by mobile characters like Bayonetta Zss
And Meta Knight while he can bust a shield quickly his shield breaking moves are laggy and can be punished and he cannot down b near the edge without the risk of killing himself his edge guarding isn't great he can be grabbed easily he can get overwhelmed by speedy attackers like Fox and Pikachu so that is why i think Mid-tier is fair for Bowser
 

Mgl

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Smash 4 in general isnt kind to heavy weights with none of them breaking top tier.
 
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