Why hasn't doc been buffed?

[atticusfinch7]

It really annoys me that several mid/high tiers have received buffs varying from small to major while Doc has been left alone despite needing desperate changes. There is a reason this character is played by hardly anyone. Doc runs almost as slow as Ganon/Robin despite having tiny hitboxes compared to them, his uair has not enough hitstun so you get punished for using it at low %, and his dair is a totally useless move. He does about half a percent more damage per move than Mario, despite Mario being better in every way other than the Fair. It seems like everyone is happy to see characters like and and buffed but nobody cares a cent for Doc. I mean 15 patches and nothing has been done to keep him out of bottom tier. Doc has literally nothing to offer that the rest of the cast doesn't do better, other than the style factor. But hey, at least and are getting some love, right?

If any mod wants to do me a solid and move this into the Smash4/Wiiu competitive discussion back where I first placed it, thanks! This is really a discussion the entire sm4sh community needs to hear.

 

[RIP_Lucas]

Pretty sure if Jigglypuff is still waiting, Doc can't complain

 

[HeavyLobster]

It really annoys me that several mid/high tiers have received buffs varying from small to major while Doc has been left alone despite needing desperate changes. There is a reason this character is played by hardly anyone. Doc runs almost as slow as Ganon/Robin despite having tiny hitboxes compared to them, his uair has not enough hitstun so you get punished for using it at low %, and his dair is a totally useless move. He does about half a percent more damage per move than Mario, despite Mario being better in every way other than the Fair. It seems like everyone is happy to see characters like and and buffed but nobody cares a cent for Doc. I mean 15 patches and nothing has been done to keep him out of bottom tier. Doc has literally nothing to offer that the rest of the cast doesn't do better, other than the style factor. But hey, at least and are getting some love, right?

Doc's not bottom tier. He was decidedly better than Dorf, Zard, Zelda, Samus, and probably Palutena were pre-patch. He still has Mario's great frame data along with better kill confirms and edgeguarding compared to Mario. He might be mediocre overall, but does have some advantages and is generally playable. He's gotten a couple of buffs over the course of the patches anyways, which is more than could be said for Puff and D3.

 

[busken]

The harsh realtiy is that not every character is gonna get buffed.

 

[atticusfinch7]

FYI this was meant to be in the competitive discussion section, but a mod moved it...
As a player who used Doc when this game first out, took a hiatus, then started playing again, it is truly saddening to see so many characters way better than they were but Doc left to be forgotten. Marth and Lucina are practically different characters are this point, but not even small boosts for Doc? Mewtwo can run as fast as Sheik but Doc can't outrun ? I'm finding myself losing to people who I can tell are worse than me just because Doc has so many weaknesses. I really don't get how you guys can be so complacent with how bad Doc is in this game.
(pretty ticked off this thread was moved because now people who don't use Doc won't have their voices heard)

Pretty sure if Jigglypuff is still waiting, Doc can't complain

I don't think Puff is really that bad off. I know a person who gets fair into rest confirms pretty consistently, and her aerials are quite hard to challenge. This is what I mean when I say people are too complacent with Doc: Puff isn't THAT needing of buffs (admittedly some might be useful), but yet everyone says its like Puff is a terrible character. Doc needs way more buffs than Puff.

 

[busken]

I spend my energy on optimizing instead of complaining. You should too. Maybe its just not meant to be.

 

[atticusfinch7]

I spend my energy on optimizing instead of complaining. You should too. Maybe its just not meant to be.

I get what you're saying, but I feel like if nobody says this then word won't get out that it's true and Doc will forever be left unbuffed.

 

[RIP_Lucas]

I don't think Puff is really that bad off. I know a person who gets fair into rest confirms pretty consistently, and her aerials are quite hard to challenge. This is what I mean when I say people are too complacent with Doc: Puff isn't THAT needing of buffs (admittedly some might be useful), but yet everyone says its like Puff is a terrible character. Doc needs way more buffs than Puff.

Puff has some thing's going for her, definitely, she's got some surprising hitboxes and a lot of combos just don't work on her, but if anybody actually played her, the community would learn to counter them. Doc is not good, but even with people vaguely knowing how to play against him thanks to regular Mario, he's still not terrible, which is more than Jigglypuff can say. Jigglypuff has been bottom tier the entire game, and not gotten buffed once, so it's safe to say we can't expect buffs for any character

 

[Eight_SixtyFour]

Good grief. We really don't need another thread for this. But kudos to the mod that moved it here, where Doc players are more likely to comment on this.

 

[atticusfinch7]

Good grief. We really don't need another thread for this. But kudos to the mod that moved it here, where Doc players are more likely to comment on this.

Well I mean the competitive discussions is one of the most commented on threads on this site, while the Doc boards is visited by very few people

 

[Eight_SixtyFour]

Well I mean the competitive discussions is one of the most commented on threads on this site, while the Doc boards is visited by very few people

I should have mentioned early on that this thread is not really relevant in the comp forum, so that's another reason why it was moved. It's better this way, since the discussion is more focused and held by the people most familiar with the character.

Secondly, why on earth would you want opinions of non-Doc mains (i.e. people who do NOT play the character)? What insight will they be able to provide compared to those who understand the nuances of this character?

Thirdly, as I said, we have threads for this topic. Use those.

Finally, your assessment of Doc is incredibly one sided. Doc is not even close to being as bad as you claim (dair is not totally useless, doc's moveset is better than mario's but his mobility is much worse, doc being bottom tier is lol, etc.).

And puff IS bad, way worse than Doc. When you lose to trades, can't space because of terrible range, can't threaten shields and die early, what do you do?

 

[Clock Tower Prison]

This thread should be deleted.

 

[Chuatan]

Doc's fine as is. Would be a lot better if his mobility was improved, but right now he's actually pretty decent. Definitely not bottom tier lol.

 

[GerudoKong]

I will admit the low hitstun on Uair is pretty stupid and should have been fixed a long time ago. Doc can't really get good low % strings on characters with fast aerials because of it other than Dthrow Usmash which doesn't work on too many members of the cast. I mean Mario's has way more hitstun despite the fact that he can use two per shorthop.

 

[NotAnAdmin]

He's not the only one, either learn to play around your character's weaknesses or just make a change. There are characters that desperately buffs need them but simply will never get the TLC they need because the Devs have deemed them as "balanced" or "finished".

Falco specifically has yet to get many things past the patch that made his nair not a waste of space on his moveset. He's been thrown a bone here and there, but his core issues have still not been taken care of, Doc is the same.

 

[Zerp]

I'd like to point out that Doctor Mario has in fact been buffed.

Spoiler: Dr. Mario's patch changes

1.0.4

• Forward aerial's knockback growth increased: 85 → 95 (early/late), 95 → 102 (clean).
• Down aerial deals 1.456% less damage: 10.976% → 9.52%.
• Down aerial's loop hits deal 0.336% more damage: 1.568% → 1.904%.
• Down aerial's landing lag decreased.
• Down aerial's hit rate decreased: 7 → 5.

1.0.6

• Up smash's horizontal knockback increased, making it more effective at KOing while near an edge.
• Sweetspotted forward aerial deals 1.12% more damage: 15.68% → 16.8%.

1.1.0

• Up smash's knockback growth increased: 108 → 117.
• Up smash's duration increased: 4 frames → 5.
• Up smash's duration matches with its animation.

1.1.1

• The application of hitlag and increase to shieldstun helps and hinders Dr. Mario. While they make his moves safer on shield due to his high damage output as well as hiselectric attacks, most notably his forward smash, these changes make it harder for him to punish out of shield.
• Clothesline Tornado deals more damage: 8% → 10%/12%.
• Clothesline Tornado's sweetspot's hitbox size increased.
• Sweetspotted Clothesline Tornado's knockback altered: 60 (base)/120 (growth) → 100/70.

Source: http://www.ssbwiki.com/Dr._Mario_(SSB4)#Update_history

Granted, these aren't very meaningful buffs, but they are still, you know, buffs, Dr Mario hasn't been ignored or shunned by the development team. I feel for you though, and I do believe the buffs he received could have been better, although I strongly disagree with the notion that he's more in need of attention than any of the current bottom tier characters. On the bright side though, given the precedent patches, I believe Dr. Mario's more likely to receive some future buffs than a certain few characters, so he at the very least has something to look forward to, and hopefully along with the others who need it as well, will receive some useful buffs in the future.

 

[BoTastic!]

Doc's mobility bothers me sometimes but at this point I just want him to have a much better recovery. Almost everyone in this game has a godlike recovery and Doc's is really bad. If they buff his recovery a lot more he'll be A-OK.

 

[Capt. Tin]

Having a better recovery doesn't matter when it takes 30 years to move from one end to the other.

 

[TTTTTsd]

The only changelog changes Doc even needs at this point (even though I firmly believe as a character he is far from overall unusable, not solo viable at all but yeah) is like:
- Run speed of 1.5/1.48/1.53
- Megavitamin IASA pushed back to 43 instead of like, 53

Either both or even just one or the other would make a gigantic difference. My problem is that every non-Doc player who suggests buffs usually throws in an idea that's pretty blatantly power creep.

The only other change I would make (and this is a maybe/not really needed at all, I used to think it was SUPER important before I learned how devastating this character's strings are) is like, maybe a slight Uair damage increase but honestly D-Throw > Usmash works on most of the best chars on the roster and is really free big damage (staling USmash isn't a problem when this character oozes kill moves anyways).

 

[Eight_SixtyFour]

The only changelog changes Doc even needs at this point (even though I firmly believe as a character he is far from overall unusable, not solo viable at all but yeah) is like:
- Run speed of 1.5/1.48/1.53
- Megavitamin IASA pushed back to 43 instead of like, 53

Either both or even just one or the other would make a gigantic difference. My problem is that every non-Doc player who suggests buffs usually throws in an idea that's pretty blatantly power creep.

The only other change I would make (and this is a maybe/not really needed at all, I used to think it was SUPER important before I learned how devastating this character's strings are) is like, maybe a slight Uair damage increase but honestly D-Throw > Usmash works on most of the best chars on the roster and is really free big damage (staling USmash isn't a problem when this character oozes kill moves anyways).

Pretty much this. Doc is just too slow for the slow/strong archetype. But he is still fairly strong, has a solid combo game (though it's geared towards short, high damage combos like d throw up smash, d throw bair, etc. ), amazing frame data, and some pretty good moves. Buffing a few important stats (like run speed, walk speed, fullhop height, etc.) will do wonders for him.

As far as Doc's recovery is concerned, Doc struggles vertically. Keep that in mind when mixing up your recovery options.

 

[Splebel]

Doctor Mario hasn't been buffed for the same reason Mario hasn't been nerfed. They're perfect.

But in all seriousness. Why would they make Doctor Mario be faster? Then he'll be even more of a clone of Mario. Same thing with his recovery. I would like for them to try to go in a different direction more than anything, but also I don't play him seriously.

 

[Capt. Tin]

Making him faster would improve him by so much. He would have a lot more options off of many different situations.

They don't have to share the same speed. Doc should just be faster to the point where it's still different than Mario.

 

[busken]

Making doc more mobile in any aspect would be counterintuitive to his design. If anything, his moves should have a great margin of strength that they have now, such as back throw being a kill throw.

 

[Chuatan]

^ Well, he was faster in Melee, with a walk speed of 1.1 and dash speed of 1.5...

Even if he's supposed to be "slower and stronger", the trade off was uneven. Devs need to either improve his speed or buff his power like they did with FAir and USmash. Speed would be the better option though since it would significantly strengthen his neutral game and enhance his current tools.

Lol yeah, a back throw buff is something I always wanted for Doc. It's pretty embarrassing that it doesn't KO at 150 by the ledge (no DI). Aside from his Up Smash and Down B, Doc's kill options are either unreliable (FSmash) or kill later than they really should (BThrow and Up B come to mind). Down B and Fair are situational, but I personally find them to be more unreliable if anything. I mean they kill early, but they require huge risks that you can easily be punished for.

 

[Capt. Tin]

Making doc more mobile in any aspect would be counterintuitive to his design. If anything, his moves should have a great margin of strength that they have now, such as back throw being a kill throw.

Then how do you explain Ike? He's supposed to be a slow, heavy powerhouse and almost all of his buffs have made him faster, instead of being given the Ganondorf treatment of extra damage.

Or Mewtwo, designed to be a glass cannon yet buffs increase his weight so he dies later.

Back throw is already a kill throw and can kill at ~100% at the ledge.

It's pretty embarrassing that it doesn't KO at 150 by the ledge (no DI).

Where do you get this information? I was able to kill Little Mac with a backthrow at the ledge at 100%. Also tested without DI.

Aside from his Up Smash and Down B, Doc's kill options are either unreliable (FSmash) or kill later than they really should (BThrow and Up B come to mind).

Up B kills at ~100% on the ledge and F-smash can be combo'd into off of other moves.

Down B and Fair are situational, but I personally find them to be more unreliable if anything. I mean they kill early, but they require huge risks that you can easily be punished for.

Only if you throw them out in situations where it isn't necessary or there are safer options.

 

[GerudoKong]

I would like to see them give Doc a huge air speed boost, like more than Mario's, and keep his ground speed as is. That would be one way to make him distinct from Mario.

 

[Splebel]

Then how do you explain Ike? He's supposed to be a slow, heavy powerhouse and almost all of his buffs have made him faster, instead of being given the Ganondorf treatment of extra damage.

Or Mewtwo, designed to be a glass cannon yet buffs increase his weight so he dies later.

They lowered Ike's lag on his moves and haven't touched his ground or air speed. Dr. Mario already has good frame data.

They also buffed Mewtwo's weight but he's still the second lightest in the game, and one point higher than G&W, another glass cannon.

 

[Eight_SixtyFour]

Sigh, no need to worry about him feeling more like Mario with a run speed buff. He's very different.

F Smash is not unreliable. It's just too risky to use.

 

[Chuatan]

Where do you get this information? I was able to kill Little Mac with a backthrow at the ledge at 100%. Also tested without DI.



Up B kills at ~100% on the ledge and F-smash can be combo'd into off of other moves.



Only if you throw them out in situations where it isn't necessary or there are safer options.

Does Back Throw really kill that early?? O_O I did my testing on Doc (myself), and it didn't kill until about the 140-150 mark. I think Mario's kills about 15% earlier in the same scenario.

On ledge Up B didn't kill Doc till about the 120 mark. Granted, you have to be literally right next to the ledge to get that early of a KO. It may have something to do with how much rage you have at that given time.

I guess if you consider just how early they kill, FSmash, Down B and Fair are already well-off. As you pointed out, they can be combo'd into, which is always great... I guess when you look at it in that regard, Doc's KO potential is really strong, much better off than Mario's lol.

It's just that like, in my own experiences using Doc, I have to often rely on Up Smash and Up B for safe kills, and I usually end up KOing with Doc around the 130-140 mark, which is okay I guess. Would kinda expect a bit more power from him though.. given how much slower he is to Mario.

Yeah, "unsafe" is a much more fitting word instead of "unreliable". Two very different things.

DISCLAIMER: If there's any inaccuracies in what I am saying, I'm probably not thinking straight. Haven't had any sleep in the last 24 hours.

 

[TTTTTsd]

A Run Speed buff does not equate to air speed nor does it change Doc's SH and landing options vs. Mario.

Not that I'm incredibly demanding of it anyways.

 

[DJSKRELP]

It isn't that Doc is bad. He just isn't a very viable solo character. A pocket or secondary? Maybe.