Why do so many top players think Brawler is bottom tier?

Sudz

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 26, 2018
Messages
414
Location
Colorado
Switch FC
SW 3649 6707 8868
#1
Currently one of my favorite characters to play as is considered trash by the vast majority of the community, including most if not all top level players.

Anyone know specifics as to why, or have their own experiences as to why Brawler may be lacking?
 

Burando

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jan 24, 2019
Messages
10
#2
I think it’s the lack of safe kill options. A vast majority of my kills as Brawler come from hard reads or catching them with a mix-up, which becomes less reliable as the opponents skill level increases. I’m not aware of any kill confirms, and edgeguarding with them can be unsafe due to their high fall speed.

While the damage racks up really quickly when you can get in on your opponent, it is still a lot of work to get there, and it can feel unrewarding to be unable to close a stock out safely afterwards.
Though, I’m hoping someone can correct me on that. I consider Brawler my main but I haven’t been past 3m GSP so I could very well be missing something.
 

Shieldlesscap

Smash Apprentice
Joined
May 28, 2015
Messages
139
#3
Brawler can kill really well at high % but struggles to gain momentum and rack up damage. He's solid in neutral and killing but not in between.

Imo the main thing he needs to be good is just less lag on Up Air. That way Down Throw would be more useful, Up Air -> Fair could be a thing, and it'd have more application than just falling Up Air -> Up Tilt and the occasional Bair.

This contradicts with Burando's post, which makes me feel like Mii Brawler is in a bit of a weird spot. You can either rack up damage really well but put your opponent in a situation where nothing you have closes out a stock, or you can get your opponent to a % where you can't get any combos off, but their playstyle will lead to them dying to something like Bair once you can get them there.
 

Burando

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jan 24, 2019
Messages
10
#4
I don’t have much trouble killing right now, as Brawler does have great kill options. But at my skill level people are still running into smash attacks. I was trying to provide a reason as to why “top” level players would see Brawler as not even ‘decent’.
My primary guess was that their kill options aren’t safe. But it could also be their weird advantage, as you pointed out.
Never really thought about it tbh, but Brawler’s advantage is really short. You get in, get a quick combo, the damage is good, but the opponent is often knocked back too far for a follow up. You could read a landing normally, but perhaps top level play favors very strong advantages, and Brawler doesn’t deliver.

Just shot put-ing thoughts though.
 
Last edited:

Zackolot

Smash Rookie
Joined
Feb 23, 2011
Messages
6
#5
Brawler has fairly strong kill options. Up-smash always catches my opponents off guard, and besides that, I tend to hit jab lock fsmash quite a bit, as well as axe kick's horizontal launch setting up for easy edge guards. Axe kick also kills around 130% near ledge as an up-b OoS with good range.

The reason I think he's bad is because he loses against any character that can edgeguard his recovery, particularly projectiles like pichu's thunder jolt or squirtle's and mario's water.
 

AEMehr

Mii Fighter
Moderator
Joined
Jun 16, 2009
Messages
7,598
Location
SoCal
3DS FC
1908-1184-3456
NNID
Ariand54321
#6
Brawler has historically been a very read-based fighter. If you land those reads yeah that's pretty good, but that's dependent on how smart the other player plays.
He's basically a stubbier Captain Falcon in the sense that he goes for hard punishes with no real confirms to their name, Burando kinda hit the nail on the head here.

It's harder to play Brawler efficiently because the kill options aren't as safe, and his neutral is hard to play versus the better characters because they usually are disjointed and he lacks the range to trade at least most of the time.
 

Shieldlesscap

Smash Apprentice
Joined
May 28, 2015
Messages
139
#7
Brawler has historically been a very read-based fighter. If you land those reads yeah that's pretty good, but that's dependent on how smart the other player plays.
He's basically a stubbier Captain Falcon in the sense that he goes for hard punishes with no real confirms to their name, Burando kinda hit the nail on the head here.

It's harder to play Brawler efficiently because the kill options aren't as safe, and his neutral is hard to play versus the better characters because they usually are disjointed and he lacks the range to trade at least most of the time.
Funny that you mention Falcon, since I main Falcon and secondary Mii Brawler (among others). I've always seen Mii Brawler as similar to Falcon, but with a much more defensive playstyle. Since your combo game isn't as good and your disadvantage is far worse outside of recovery, you need to poke a lot more until you either get them to kill % or land a hard read that either kills outright or lets you combo into something like Axe Kick.

That and you have a projectile ig.
 

mrguy321

Smash Cadet
Joined
May 19, 2019
Messages
36
#8
linear recovery, terrible range, unnecessary end lag, and kinda slow. not unviable, but within the range of limbo beteeen solid character and bad character
 

SecretAsianMan

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Nov 26, 2018
Messages
122
#9
Mii Brawler has a lot strengths and weaknesses, but after trying him out at my local and doin terrible, here's my opinion:

+Combo Game
+Lots of Damage
+Hard to interrupt recovery
+Kills Rediculously early
-No range period
-Kill options are slow/not safe
-Not fast enough to compensate for bad range
-Bad recovery

If you mix bad range with Average-ish Mobility, he really struggles against swordies and semi-zoners (Pichu, Wolf) wich is the enitrety of top tier. Granted Brawler hits like a truck, but that truck can't go if a train stops it at a railroad crossing. In my opinion he is, in a sence, an "Air Mac".
 
Last edited:

mrguy321

Smash Cadet
Joined
May 19, 2019
Messages
36
#10
Mii Brawler has a lot strengths and weaknesses, but after trying him out at my local and doin terrible, here's my opinion:

+Combo Game
+Lots of Damage
+Hard to interrupt recovery
+Kills Rediculously early
-No range period
-Kill options are slow/not safe
-Not fast enough to compensate for bad range
-Bad recovery

If you mix bad range with Average-ish Mobility, he really struggles against swordies and semi-zoners (Pichu, Wolf) wich is the enitrety of top tier. Granted Brawler hits like a truck, but that truck can't go if a train stops it at a railroad crossing. In my opinion he is, in a sence, an "Air Mac".
i get what you mean but i think hes still leagues above little mac. not that hes a character that you can get into quickly, but hes not the glass cannon type like little mac. needs time and patience to get kills. he needs some changes, check out my rework thread and tell me what you think
 

SecretAsianMan

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Nov 26, 2018
Messages
122
#11
Little Mac is the same way. He just can't dash in and get hits for a kill, because people can jump. He also has to hang back and find holes to get punches in. Though obviously Mii Brawler is better (much, much better) than mac with the ability to be able to jump, but they do have similar issues.
Mii Brawler is a meh character with really difficult attributes to work with in this meta and a lackluster playerbase (compared to other characters) makes it really easy to disregard him as bottom 10. Personally I think he's in the lower end of mid-tier, being bottom 30.
 
Last edited:

Sean²

Smash Capitalist
Joined
Mar 28, 2008
Messages
1,647
Switch FC
SW-7479-8539-5283
#12
It's fine, I think opinions on Brawler are starting to turn around, at least from what I've seen. Almost to the point where he's seen as the best Mii, at the very least.

I gave this character a serious go for a while before 3.0 and was trash with him though. I was on the bottom tier bandwagon for a decent amount of time. Trying to recover just got me frustrated. Keep fighting the good fight, Brawler mains. Shot put is a stupid projectile.
 

mrguy321

Smash Cadet
Joined
May 19, 2019
Messages
36
#13
It's fine, I think opinions on Brawler are starting to turn around, at least from what I've seen. Almost to the point where he's seen as the best Mii, at the very least.

I gave this character a serious go for a while before 3.0 and was trash with him though. I was on the bottom tier bandwagon for a decent amount of time. Trying to recover just got me frustrated. Keep fighting the good fight, Brawler mains. Shot put is a stupid projectile.
recovery build is axe kick drop kick and flip if u needed to know. mii brawler needs buffs on his specials to diversify his moveset options as well as his normals to defend against edge guards and overall play
 

~?~

The Strangest Link Main
Premium
Joined
Feb 24, 2019
Messages
247
Location
Baltimore
#14
The in depth answer no one wants to give.

The better I got at this game at performing strict, technical or reliable setups with different characters, the more I noticed how bad Brawler actually has it. Let's start with the most basic. His scrawny hit boxes. He gets outranged and outzoned heavily by most the cast, and disjoints are a huge threat to him. Given that zoning and disjoints are very strong in this game and also very popular, it means he'll run into his weaknesses more often. He has no confirm kill setups outside of hard reads. If you're fighting at higher levels, hard reads become harder to do consistently. Brawler players often defend his bad hitbox options and his even worse projectile, but I also notice them strongly defend the fact he has a command grab. There's just one issue. Brawlers command grab sucks both in kill power (just look at bowsers or incineroars) and speed. It also lacks any form of utility or effective followups (just look at ganons who causes a tech situation on the ground so he can follow up). His recovery options are also in general super linear, making him a pretty easy character to gimp for early stocks compared to other characters in the roster. Also, Counters are NOT good (except for Jokers, who has a Counter that isn't balanced TBH). Counters are pretty much an edge guard gimmick at best and on rare occasions, a get off me option for predictable combo extenders. I've actually beaten Brawlers just by picking Ganondorf and spamming Neutral Air. Nothing they had outranged it and the projectile just got jumped over. Other than counter, they had nothing and once you make a player that has the option to use a counter rely on it, it's EZ money, just bait it and get your free W.

IN SHORT:

He's short limbed and has stumpy little hitboxes that disjoints just shred through
HIS projectile sucks and gets outzoned by virtually every projectile in the game.
Most his specials are useless, even the command grab.
Mediocre recovery.
Average movement.

I personally believe that neutral air and backair are his only dependable attacks.
 
Last edited:

mrguy321

Smash Cadet
Joined
May 19, 2019
Messages
36
#15
The in depth answer no one wants to give.

The better I got at this game at performing strict, technical or reliable setups with different characters, the more I noticed how bad Brawler actually has it. Let's start with the most basic. His scrawny hit boxes. He gets outranged and outzoned heavily by most the cast, and disjoints are a huge threat to him. Given that zoning and disjoints are very strong in this game and also very popular, it means he'll run into his weaknesses more often. He has no confirm kill setups outside of hard reads. If you're fighting at higher levels, hard reads become harder to do consistently. Brawler players often defend his bad hitbox options and his even worse projectile, but I also notice them strongly defend the fact he has a command grab. There's just one issue. Brawlers command grab sucks both in kill power (just look at bowsers or incineroars) and speed. It also lacks any form of utility or effective followups (just look at ganons who causes a tech situation on the ground so he can follow up). His recovery options are also in general super linear, making him a pretty easy character to gimp for early stocks compared to other characters in the roster. Also, Counters are NOT good (except for Jokers, who has a Counter that isn't balanced TBH). Counters are pretty much an edge guard gimmick at best and on rare occasions, a get off me option for predictable combo extenders. I've actually beaten Brawlers just by picking Ganondorf and spamming Neutral Air. Nothing they had outranged it and the projectile just got jumped over. Other than counter, they had nothing and once you make a player that has the option to use a counter rely on it, it's EZ money, just bait it and get your free W.

IN SHORT:

He's short limbed and has stumpy little hitboxes that disjoints just shred through
HIS projectile sucks and gets outzoned by virtually every projectile in the game.
Most his specials are useless, even the command grab.
Mediocre recovery.
Average movement.

I personally believe that neutral air and backair are his only dependable attacks.
i would sat you hit the nail on the head, but idk how long youve played mii brawler in ultimate because your points are all legitimate, but i think you missed some points, and didnt show how your points correlated to show how easy it would be to fix him, even though that wasnt the point of ur posr. would talk more but im busy right now. check out my rework thread instead if you want more detail.
 

~?~

The Strangest Link Main
Premium
Joined
Feb 24, 2019
Messages
247
Location
Baltimore
#16
i would sat you hit the nail on the head, but idk how long youve played mii brawler in ultimate because your points are all legitimate, but i think you missed some points, and didnt show how your points correlated to show how easy it would be to fix him, even though that wasnt the point of ur posr. would talk more but im busy right now. check out my rework thread instead if you want more detail.
I've played all the Miis, and Mii Brawler is the one I've played the most, and Gunner being the one I played the least. I mostly use them for single player activity now because using them against any competent player in a PVP setup is just ridiculously harder than it should be. TBH, to answer your other question, I really don't know how to fix Brawler without changing his Special Move options all together, like completely reworking it. He also needs to be faster on the ground and/or the air. Actually, I think just messing with his movement alone could be a HUGE benefit to him. Every character needs a weakness, but the character itself shouldn't be the weakness lol.

I would say, make the little dude run like Fox and you just might be able to solve a lot of neutral game issues off that alone. Also, make the command grab have better knockback growth. Change the angle of some of his throws so he can at least get a reliable followup for early percent combos.
 
Last edited:

Shieldlesscap

Smash Apprentice
Joined
May 28, 2015
Messages
139
#17
Agree with the above post, but I should add that not having (m)any kill confirms wouldn't be so bad if Mii Brawler had a combo game that got people to kill % faster. That way fishing for raw kill moves like Bair wouldn't be as bad (Bair is the fastest of the "backwards kick" Bairs so I'd say that's actually a really solid move). Imo buff Up Air's FAF so it combos into some stuff outside of falling up air, buff his movement, buff the startup of Shot Put, Onslaught, and the Command Grab. Finally, give him back the old Feint Jump but with its current knockback.
 

mrguy321

Smash Cadet
Joined
May 19, 2019
Messages
36
#18
I've played all the Miis, and Mii Brawler is the one I've played the most, and Gunner being the one I played the least. I mostly use them for single player activity now because using them against any competent player in a PVP setup is just ridiculously harder than it should be. TBH, to answer your other question, I really don't know how to fix Brawler without changing his Special Move options all together, like completely reworking it. He also needs to be faster on the ground and/or the air. Actually, I think just messing with his movement alone could be a HUGE benefit to him. Every character needs a weakness, but the character itself shouldn't be the weakness lol.

I would say, make the little dude run like Fox and you just might be able to solve a lot of neutral game issues off that alone. Also, make the command grab have better knockback growth. Change the angle of some of his throws so he can at least get a reliable followup for early percent combos.
well i dont think his movement is his main problem. the character feels like he was intended to be a wolf and mario combo, where he should have combo versatility, and strong attacks while having smaller reach with his normals. the problem is hes slower than wolf and is almost as slow as dr mario, he deals too much kb with his combo moves, he deals too little percent for the amount kb he deals, and his range is abismal, having to worst jab and dsmash in the game, along with some of his other normals. they need to pretty much give him an all around buff, while also keeping his combo game healthy without giving him insane kb, as performing combos in order to deal the insane kb seems like the optimal and intended design. and his specials are so lack luster, as the choices you have pin u into a certain setup, which is the literal opposite of the entire point of the character, to customize for your playstyle. without making this a mega reply, they need to make his recovery specials more reliable by increasing distance traveled, reducing end lag, and/or getting rid of helplessness after performing a special, ESPECIALLY with heli kick. that would be an amazing change for the move. also give counter a full hitbox.
 

Kiligar

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 5, 2019
Messages
227
#19
well i dont think his movement is his main problem. the character feels like he was intended to be a wolf and mario combo, where he should have combo versatility, and strong attacks while having smaller reach with his normals. the problem is hes slower than wolf and is almost as slow as dr mario, he deals too much kb with his combo moves, he deals too little percent for the amount kb he deals, and his range is abismal, having to worst jab and dsmash in the game, along with some of his other normals. they need to pretty much give him an all around buff, while also keeping his combo game healthy without giving him insane kb, as performing combos in order to deal the insane kb seems like the optimal and intended design. and his specials are so lack luster, as the choices you have pin u into a certain setup, which is the literal opposite of the entire point of the character, to customize for your playstyle. without making this a mega reply, they need to make his recovery specials more reliable by increasing distance traveled, reducing end lag, and/or getting rid of helplessness after performing a special, ESPECIALLY with heli kick. that would be an amazing change for the move. also give counter a full hitbox.
Stop. Saying. Brawler. Is. Slow. You can have other reasons he’s not good, like frame data and hitboxes, but not his speed. Him being the same mobility as Dr.Mario is a straight up lie. Him being slower than Wolf is only in regards to initial dash and air speed. List the facts.
Run Speed:
23 Mii Brawler 1.92
Air Speed:
25 Mii Brawler 1.15
Fall Speed:
5 Mii Brawler 1.923.07260%
Initial Dash:

47-52 Mii Brawler 1.87

The only thing of Brawler’s that is below average is his initial dash, which is not that slow considering Mario is at 1.936. So quit it with the slow Brawler Miime.
 
Last edited:

~?~

The Strangest Link Main
Premium
Joined
Feb 24, 2019
Messages
247
Location
Baltimore
#20
Stop. Saying. Brawler. Is. Slow. You can have other reasons he’s not good, like frame data and hitboxes, but not his speed. Him being the same mobility as Dr.Mario is a straight up lie. Him being slower than Wolf is only in regards to initial dash and air speed. List the facts.
Run Speed:
23 Mii Brawler 1.92
Air Speed:
25 Mii Brawler 1.15
Fall Speed:
5 Mii Brawler 1.923.07260%
Initial Dash:

47-52 Mii Brawler 1.87

The only thing of Brawler’s that is below average is his initial dash, which is not that slow considering Mario is at 1.936. So quit it with the slow Brawler Miime.
No one said he was slow.... soooo... all this was kind of pointless.
 

AEMehr

Mii Fighter
Moderator
Joined
Jun 16, 2009
Messages
7,598
Location
SoCal
3DS FC
1908-1184-3456
NNID
Ariand54321
#24
No need to act condescending.
In what regard? Mii Brawler has faster movement speed and general framedata (if not near to par on Wolf) than both of the examples you listed.
 

Mario & Sonic Guy

Old rivalries live on!
Joined
Sep 18, 2007
Messages
22,079
Location
Mushroom Kingdom
3DS FC
5327-1637-5096
NNID
TPitch5
#25
What was Nintendo thinking when it decided to nerf the Mii Brawler's air speed and weight, AND increase its falling speed and gravity at the same time? The slower air speed and faster falling speed basically makes its overall recovery worse than in Smash 3DS / Wii U.
 

The Rhythm Theif

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jun 6, 2019
Messages
218
Location
An Apartment With Stolen Forgery Art In Paris
Switch FC
SW-2028-5151-9144
#26
Well, technically, the faster falling speed is actually kind of good, as it allows you to get back to the stage faster if you are flown upward at low, mid, or mid-to-high percents. It also allows him to get out of Kirby's nerfed U-Tilt, which, as a Kirby main myself, I'm kind of saddened by.
 

mrguy321

Smash Cadet
Joined
May 19, 2019
Messages
36
#27
but for a short range melee character (and for some of his moves garbage range), he has an unacceptable amount of end lag on his moves, like up air.
 

grizby2

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 14, 2012
Messages
1,159
Location
Upland California
#28
ive been playing brawler for quite a bit over the last few days online. (specifically GARFIELD XD )

kill options are most definitely the biggest issue, at least for me. Bair doesn't feel THAT powerful IMO. I don't think the character is slow, but I wouldn't mind if they made brawler a bit faster. I REALLY love the dash attack.

changes I would make:
make D-tilt come out a little faster.
a little bit more knockback on Bair.
add more hit stun to up air
give either back throw or forward throw more OOMPH.

you definitely need to play Hit-and-run with brawler. get a combo in, then wait for the opponent to make a mistake, then rack up % until they're at maybe 100%. most of my kills come from punishing landings with onslaught, or hard, HARD reads with smash attacks, UP smash being the most forgiving. sometimes I can 2-frame with flashing mach punch (if the opponent is large enough), but it usually doesn't kill.

as far as the throws go, it only feels like they exist JUST to be there.. ya know? it'd be great if they buffed them some how, or gave brawler more pummel damage, because then swordies or any other character that out ranges brawler would have to be more carful, instead of just spamming Nair or Fair with reckless abandon. also, it just feels WRONG that a character like brawler would have such wimpy throws. hell, maybe giving brawler a Back throw like NESS's would actually even things out.

anyway, I really enjoy playing brawler this time around! its a good character for those who want to enter the realm of combo strings for the first time.
 

The Rhythm Theif

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jun 6, 2019
Messages
218
Location
An Apartment With Stolen Forgery Art In Paris
Switch FC
SW-2028-5151-9144
#29
ive been playing brawler for quite a bit over the last few days online. (specifically GARFIELD XD )

kill options are most definitely the biggest issue, at least for me. Bair doesn't feel THAT powerful IMO. I don't think the character is slow, but I wouldn't mind if they made brawler a bit faster. I REALLY love the dash attack.

changes I would make:
make D-tilt come out a little faster.
a little bit more knockback on Bair.
add more hit stun to up air
give either back throw or forward throw more OOMPH.

you definitely need to play Hit-and-run with brawler. get a combo in, then wait for the opponent to make a mistake, then rack up % until they're at maybe 100%. most of my kills come from punishing landings with onslaught, or hard, HARD reads with smash attacks, UP smash being the most forgiving. sometimes I can 2-frame with flashing mach punch (if the opponent is large enough), but it usually doesn't kill.

as far as the throws go, it only feels like they exist JUST to be there.. ya know? it'd be great if they buffed them some how, or gave brawler more pummel damage, because then swordies or any other character that out ranges brawler would have to be more carful, instead of just spamming Nair or Fair with reckless abandon. also, it just feels WRONG that a character like brawler would have such wimpy throws. hell, maybe giving brawler a Back throw like NESS's would actually even things out.

anyway, I really enjoy playing brawler this time around! its a good character for those who want to enter the realm of combo strings for the first time.
You'll never be alone there. I enjoy playing Brawler online as well. (Specifically, Broly. I basically created a literal abomination online. He easily defeated Corrin, Lucina, and Sonic.)
 

mrguy321

Smash Cadet
Joined
May 19, 2019
Messages
36
#30
i wouldnt say that his dtilt is something that has a higher priority to be changed. the only issue i see with it is that it deals too much kb. thats THE combo move he has. cant really say its a poke because ftilt covers that, even though early percent poke is really risky. ftilt doesnt do enough kb that would allow him to push off early percent combo rushers like pichu or greninja. it definitely needs more set kb to push the move into a solid poke/zone territory. theres a lot more that can be changed, but this was just my opinion on the earlier post. oh ya and bair definitely needs more kill power. and i think his throws are good except for dthrow, that should be a combo throw
 
Last edited:
Top