Why do people think that smash isn't a fighting game?

[Gionni]

First of all I hope that a thread about this doesn't exist and if it does I'm sorry, I play smash competitively, as a fighting game, and I play other fighting games like street fighter and tekken, I know that a lot of people that play other "real" fighting games don't consider smash one, and there's even more people that thinks that smash is a party game, nothing more, nothing less. I wanted to ask why is it in this way

 

[Darklink401]

It's a fighting game. With fighting. It CAN be a party game, but it's a game with fighting.

Not a TRADITIONAL fighter, but still... =P

 

[ATH_]

People tend to not think it's a fighting game because it was not intended to be taken to a competitive level.

It's like saying just because the writer of a movie didn't intend it to be a comedy, then it CAN'T be a comedy. It's a false sense of logic.

Smash is simply what you perceive it to be. In my perception, it is both a party game for casuals and friends, while also having the ability to be a competitive fighting game. Some may have high standards for this of course, which can switch their perception.

 

[EarthBoundEnigma]

Platform fighter. Nintendo games in general allow for local multiplayer. That, alone, doesn't make a party game.
Smash Bros is as much of a party game as Goldeneye 64, Mario Kart, or Bomberman.

 

[ATH_]

Platform fighter. Nintendo games in general allow for local multiplayer. That, alone, doesn't make a party game.
Smash Bros is as much of a party game as Goldeneye 64, Mario Kart, or Bomberman.

It's a party game because it can be played with multiple players who don't need to have prior experience or know the immediate controls to have fun. That's how I look at it. Can it be played at a party or housing by people who either don't or do know about the game, and still have people have fun? Yes? Then it is successfully a party game. It has something you do for almost any button input, which allows a new person to find out what they can do fast.

 

[Darklink401]

It's a party game because it can be played with multiple players who don't need to have prior experience or know the immediate controls to have fun. That's how I look at it. Can it be played at a party or housing by people who either don't or do know about the game, and still have people have fun? Yes? Then it is successfully a party game. It has something you do for almost any button input, which allows a new person to find out what they can do fast.

Mhmm.

The bottom line is, it's a game for parties, and it's a game with fighting.

So everyone saying it's not either of those is...kinda not seein that X3

 

[Morbi]

Darklink401 hit the nail on the head; when most people claim that Smash is not a fighting game, they mean that it is not a traditional fighting game. The fighting game community in general tends to be fairly elitist. I am not necessarily implying that that is a bad thing either, but many are defensive about their own game as they feel an overwhelming sense of pride towards their craft and sometimes that means they are offensive towards another. Smash is an easy target as it is an entirely different landscape and there is not a vast amount of player overlap. A lot of Marvel players also play Street Fighter or Mortal Kombat players play Injustice, a lot of Injustice players dabble into Killer Instinct, so on and so forth. Most Smash players are interested in Smash and therefore they are not interested in any of the aforementioned titles; thus, making it a feasible target of hate. Think about Smash as the Justin Beiber of fighting games, he is perceived as less masculine and people will assert that his music is not really music despite the notion that his music is music by definition. In their subjective opinion, it is the truth; however, that does not mean that it is true either. Smash has a huge casual following and usually fighting games do not have that luxury, so there could be jealousy to an extent or, again, elitism as their game is not littered by "filthy casuals." As a member of Test Your Might, the Mortal Kombat forum, I can say with confidence that the game got a lot of the same misguided hate for the same reasons.

Tl;dr: Haters gonna hate.

 

[TL?]

Don't take it too seriously because it's mostly just trash talk and fanboyism. People aren't genuinely concerned with categorizing smash, they're trying to put it down which is why the reasoning is usually very flawed. Genre describes things like how a game works mechanically, the general structure, and what the goal is. The mechanics of smash resemble a fighting game with platforming elements. Party game isn't a genre. It's just a label that generally means a game is a fun, easy to learn, multiplayer game. Smash is without a doubt a party game, but it's genre is fighting. It's the same as how mario kart is a party game, but it's genre is racing. At the end of the day, it's not even really a big deal because they're just labels and categorization. Don't take the bait and get worked up about it.

 

[T0MMY]

The "Fighting" genre grew out of and was popularized by Street Fighter II (not even the first one was really all that popular), this genre came from Capcom's many "beat 'em ups" or "brawlers" of the time like Final Fight and due to its popularity the Street Fighter clones started appearing throughout the video game industry.
With so many "Street Fighting Games" the simplified term "Fighting Game" was used to describe games that played similar to Street Fighter II so players interested in playing more Street Fighter like games would understand what to demo/rent and more sales would ensue.

Because Smash Bros. drew very little inspiration directly from Street Fighter and introduced completely radical elements to a competitive game which has fighting in it this could be seen as not a "Street Fighter II Clone Game" and therefore the shortened name "Fighting Game" does not aptly apply.
No problems, right?

Well, part 2 of our story comes in when hardcore fans of "Fighting" games describe the games which they do not play, even if they are "Fighting Games" but outside their specific series (not Marvel, King of Fighters, etc.). In short, if you are not playing their game they will hate all over you and your game you do play for whatever reason they find. Path of least resistance here, they hate on Smash because it's not a "Fighting Game" and since their game is always superior to others than this is a problem (when in fact it is not).
The same goes for a "Party Game".

Well, to those haters I like to point out that Smash outsells their games, is more popular, and just won Fighting Game of the Year.
Haters make us famous!

 

[Gidy]

Because Smash is a free flowing sandbox fighting game and it's not like other fighting games which are more on rails and can involve complex button combos. If you are playing Project M or Melee you really just need to know you movement options as far as complexity goes.

Tl;Dr, it's different from a traditional fighting game and people want mahvel instead.

 

[Frostav]

Because Smash is a free flowing sandbox fighting game and it's not like other fighting games which are more on rails and can involve complex button combos. If you are playing Project M or Melee you really just need to know you movement options as far as complexity goes.

Tl;Dr, it's different from a traditional fighting game and people want mahvel instead.

This is a hilariously biased description of traditional FG's. Go play some Arcana Heart or Guilty Gear and say that again. There's no need to hate on the other side, that's just stooping to their level. We should be coexisting as fighting game players.

And a lot of fighting gamers hate Mahvel, you do realize that?

To the OP: it's a different kind of fighter in a genre which doesn't have many differences outside of Anime fighters (which usually have airdashes, airblocking, longer combos, and gatling chains) vs Street-fighter style ones (slower, shorter combos, more methodical, less gatlings, no airblocking or airdashes). Platform fighters are basically nonexistent outside of Smash so that fuels them.

However, this is lessening and most people in the FGC are cool with Smash. It's mostly old-school SF players who hate on it.

 

[Darklink401]

What other smash-like games ARE there even? Aside from Cartoon Network Punchtime Explosion.....XP

 

[Gidy]

This is a hilariously biased description of traditional FG's. Go play some Arcana Heart or Guilty Gear and say that again. There's no need to hate on the other side, that's just stooping to their level. We should be coexisting as fighting game players.

And a lot of fighting gamers hate Mahvel, you do realize that?

To the OP: it's a different kind of fighter in a genre which doesn't have many differences outside of Anime fighters (which usually have airdashes, airblocking, longer combos, and gatling chains) vs Street-fighter style ones (slower, shorter combos, more methodical, less gatlings, no airblocking or airdashes). Platform fighters are basically nonexistent outside of Smash so that fuels them.

However, this is lessening and most people in the FGC are cool with Smash. It's mostly old-school SF players who hate on it.

I wouldn't call those games traditional. Sure, they are on rails like traditional fighting games but the combat is more free flowing, similar to smash in a way. I just said the mahvel thing as a long running joke. However I don't follow marvel so I wouldn't know the condition its in. Couldn't be too bad if it's at Apex, right?

 

[Frostav]

I wouldn't call those games traditional. Sure, they are on rails like traditional fighting games but the combat is more free flowing, similar to smash in a way. I just said the mahvel thing as a long running joke. However I don't follow marvel so I wouldn't know the condition its in. Couldn't be too bad if it's at Apex, right?

They still are 2D games on flat planes with walls on the end. We simply call them "Anime Fighters" (because they tend to have anime/manga art styles).

Mahvel is popular, yes, but to a lot of people it's like...the Bayformers of fighting games: a bunch of prettied-up mainstream crap that's only popular because it's flashy and has huge-ass hype combos. People play it because it's popular. It's insta-hype, but is otherwise really vapid and inane.

 

[Gidy]

They still are 2D games on flat planes with walls on the end. We simply call them "Anime Fighters" (because they tend to have anime/manga art styles).

Mahvel is popular, yes, but to a lot of people it's like...the Bayformers of fighting games: a bunch of prettied-up mainstream crap that's only popular because it's flashy and has huge-*** hype combos. People play it because it's popular. It's insta-hype, but is otherwise really vapid and inane.

Ah, so anime fighters. Apologies for my biasm.

And thanks for the info on marvel too.

 

[Darklink401]

I actually like anime fighters...cuz they look cool......and I can button mash...........XD


So basically Marvel is the thing people play because people play it? XP

 

[HeroMystic]

I like to imagine UMvC3 as Smash 64, except you can't stall infinitely to avoid a hit-confirm into death.

 

[chainmaillekid]

It's a party game because it can be played with multiple players who don't need to have prior experience or know the immediate controls to have fun. That's how I look at it. Can it be played at a party or housing by people who either don't or do know about the game, and still have people have fun? Yes? Then it is successfully a party game. It has something you do for almost any button input, which allows a new person to find out what they can do fast.

I think party game is a false genre.

Its a category, sure. But not a genre.
Games that we call party games don't have enough defined qualities or shared traits.

There is a greater range of qualities different between different party games, than the number of qualities they share.


Some party games are turn based, some are real time. Some are first person, some are third person.


If there IS a definite party game genre, it would have to be defined as a compilation of a variety of multiplayer activities, which may be built into an environment, but which are not Dependant on that environment. An example of that environment being a Mario Party board game, or the Nintendo Land Plaza. Both these games demonstrate the the independence from the environment by offering easy to access modes which bypass it. Another example would be the wii sports games, in which the environment is merely a menu structure.

This definition of a party game genre CANNOT include a game such as smash bros.

 

[Darklink401]

I'd define party game as games meant for parties, or fun at parties. Not specifically a genre, but moreso a category.

Smash free-for-alls with items on are so hilarious, they're definitely good for parties.

I'd consider Smash to be put into that catergory of games that are good for parties.

 

[aethermaster]

For me at least, Smash is whatever you want it to be. Want to play it with 7 friends with all items on? Go ahead. Want to play Fox only, no items, Final Destination? Fine.

That's why its so different and why the FGC isn't so quick to call it a "fighting game". Disregarding all the traditional elements a fighting game has, people solely go to SF, MVC, MK9, and the likes to play competitively. Those games are strictly centered around that and Smash really hasn't been like that at all up until now really. Melee was never really intended to be played at the level it was and with a creator that was so anti-competitive for a long time, the FGC responded in a such a way.

 

[Raijinken]

One of the best party games, and one of the only fighting games I'm any good at.

If Smash isn't a fighter because it diverts from the SF (etc) formula, I guess Call of Duty isn't a shooter, since it diverts too much from the Quake/CS formula.

 

[Conda]

When the fps genre expanded, to include third person shooters and unconventional shooters, we started calling them shooters instead. Because you shoot things first and foremost.

In smash, you fight things first and foremost. You go to a stage and try to win by fighting better than your opponent. It's a fighting game. It doesn't matter if it is not like Street Fighter or anime fighters, zoomed in on a 2d walled map. Playstation allstars was a fighter as is Smash. Smash expanded the genre but that was many years ago, we should be okay with calling it what it is now.

Mario Kart on the SNES was a racing game, doesn't matter if it had random items and goofy tracks. We've gotten over how different it is and understand its truly a racing game just like the more serious racing games at the time. Many clones being made afterward helped solidify a new subgenre - kart racer.
Smash is no different, just harder to make a concise new name for. Sandbox Fighter works well enough, but the point is that Smash is definitely a fighter.

 

[Gionni]

When the fps genre expanded, to include third person shooters and unconventional shooters, we started calling them shooters instead. Because you shoot things first and foremost.

In smash, you fight things first and foremost. You go to a stage and try to win by fighting better than your opponent. It's a fighting game. It doesn't matter if it is not like Street Fighter or anime fighters, zoomed in on a 2d walled map. Playstation allstars was a fighter as is Smash. Smash expanded the genre but that was many years ago, we should be okay with calling it what it is now.

Mario Kart on the SNES was a racing game, doesn't matter if it had random items and goofy tracks. We've gotten over how different it is and understand its truly a racing game just like the more serious racing games at the time. Many clones being made afterward helped solidify a new subgenre - kart racer.
Smash is no different, just harder to make a concise new name for. Sandbox Fighter works well enough, but the point is that Smash is definitely a fighter.

I see what you mean, but I think that smash can't be called a subgenre of fighting games yet, cause there aren't any other game even close to the mechanics of it, I think the example with mario kart is really useful. I would called how Sakurai did in an interview once, but I can't remember it

 

[SuaveChaser]

Smash is both a party game a fighting game but alot of people don't respect smash in general due how easy it is and the lack of technicality needed to be good in it. If you love smash just enjoy it.

 

[Darklink401]

Smash is both a party game a fighting game but alot of people don't respect smash in general due how easy it is and the lack of technicality needed to be good in it. If you love smash just enjoy it.

I mean you say that...then you look at Melee =P

 

[Orngeblu]

I don't see why it can't be both. Smash in general has a ton of depth and is skill-based. I'm talking all Smash games.

Why do people say it's not a fighting game?

Using arguments like it wasn't intended to be a fighting game, while it is a fact, does not make Smash any less of a competitive fighter.

Another question is, who says it?

Arrogant FGC players who bash on it for being a simple game, despite it having a lot of depth like I said above.

It's just plain ignorant of someone to say Smash has no depth, they're usually players who haven't played it enough to have a deep understanding of the game, or they have no idea what depth means and they use it as some sort of measure without any definition.

And don't forget trolls. TROLLS EVERYWHERE!

The thing is, Smash is unique in it's own way. It's different from other fighting games, but it is very competitively viable despite what some players may believe.

 

[MegaMissingno]

 

[JipC]

Why cant we just call it a Platformer Fighter? It's not the only game of this genre (though by far it is definetly the best and pretty much defined the genre). It has elements of traditional fighting games but moving around is more platformer-esque
Its not a traditional fighter and "party game" doesn't really define what the gameplay is (plus there are lots of games that could be played at parties that we wouldn't call a party game)

..but anyway the genre argument is really dumb, its best not to engage people in them or respond to people who try to bring it up

 

[DavemanCozy]

It's definitely a fighting game. The goal is to push the opponent off the stage, but it's still a fighting game: one thing it has in common with every fighting game is space control (SF4, Marvel, etc all revolve around space control to set up your combos, etc).

It's unique in that it is a very easy to pick-up-and-play fighting game, and also offers a variety of ways to play. I've been happy with the recent years, because more and more people seem to be accepting that the game can be played in multiple ways and still be fun whatever way.

Certain people think that the game shouldn't be a "competitive" fighting game, but the game already is competitive by nature because the objective is to win. Whether you play timed matches with all items on high, or if you play with no items in specific stages, the goal remains the same: you are competing against others to win.

The other argument is that it's not competitive because of the strict rules required, but that's just silly. The game allows us to change the options and play however we like (we're not modding the game to play that way), so there technically is no "right way" to play.

That's what I love about Smash. I went to the Come Up last weekend and was a great tournament experience. At the same time, I've played some crazy 8-player free-for-all with Assist Trophies and Pokeballs flying all over the place, and I loved every moment of it. It's my absolute favorite game because of the customization options it provides us.

 

[Gionni]

I mean you say that...then you look at Melee =P

You can enjoy melee without even knowing what a wavedash is, and you can be good without being super technical

 

[HeavyLobster]

What other smash-like games ARE there even? Aside from Cartoon Network Punchtime Explosion.....XP

The lack of good/noteworthy games other than Smash in the platform fighter subgenre is one of the main reasons it's easy to dismiss Smash as a party fighter. If there was a good/popular platform fighter geared primarily to tournament play it would be impossible for anyone to deny the legitimacy of the subgenre and Smash's place within this, but the fact that Sakurai is intent on having Smash straddle the line between a FFA item-based party game and a 1v1 fighter allows competitive Smash critics, be they Smash casuals or FGC players, to claim that they're "playing the game wrong" and assert that Smash is really just a party game.

 

[SpectreJordan]

It's a fighting game. It's just a different sub-genre like how SF/MK/MvC/etc... are 2D & Tekken/SC/etc... are 3D.

 

[Roukiske]

The only people I've seen who say "But Smash isn't a fighting game" are people who aren't really even apart of the FGC and usually just troll FGC forums (or are just joking).

If you personally don't see competitive smash as a fighting game then I don't think you quite understand competitive gaming in general since it pretty much has everything general fighting games have. Some don't think its legit because of how accessible the game in general is. Anyone who actually does play the game can tell you just because you know how to input all the moves in the game, doesn't mean you know use all the moves in the game.

But yes, it's also a party game when you set the rules to be. Any game can be a party game if the game rules let you. Tekken Tag 1 had 4 players and you can't deny that its not a fighting game. Well me and my friends used to loves doing 2v2's at parties without any seriousness or competitive mindset at all, even just button mashing at the time. Made for good parties.

 

[Darklink401]

You can enjoy melee without even knowing what a wavedash is, and you can be good without being super technical

You can definitely enjoy melee and be good at it...but tech skill is VERY important for competitive melee. Not so much Brawl and Smash 4 though

 

[Coonce]

Maybe because Smash is really only advertised as a party game? Grabbing three friends (or seven now) and duking it out is more indicative to a party game than a fighting game.

 

[Orngeblu]

DESTROYED THIS TOPIC

 

[Sleek Media]

Bad competitive community. A lot of people in other FGC's are tired of hearing our BS and drama, and the easiest argument against our game is that it's a different genre.

 

[Gionni]

You can definitely enjoy melee and be good at it...but tech skill is VERY important for competitive melee. Not so much Brawl and Smash 4 though

I disagree, there are some top melee players that haven't got the best tech skill in the world, I guess that it's one of the things that makes smash unique as a fighting game

 

[Darklink401]

I disagree, there are some top melee players that haven't got the best tech skill in the world, I guess that it's one of the things that makes smash unique as a fighting game

Oh no, you're right, there are quite a few, but tech skill IS something important to be great. Some just are able to do without it XP

 

[Mindles]

its a fighting-party game