Why do people tech the way they do?

[forward]

Thought this would be a fun topic that wouldn't take much time to write about. I was just wondering what people would say are the most influential pieces to determining how people tech.

Obvious things like stage position (teching near the ledge is a very specific tech), who the character teching is, who the tech chaser is, %.

What about rock-paper-scissor type strats? Avalanche is 3 rocks, do people intentionally avalanche their techs (repeat the same tech)?

 

[Silent Wolf]

Its all so situational. like you said, position, characters, also players (what you expect from them based on their skill or reputation), previous techs (might switch it up or intentionally stay the same).

there are those certain situations where theres that one direction you shouldnt tech. like when you land right behind falcon, you never want to tech in place the first time, or very often at all. or when a fox uthrows you on a platforms and you dont DI, (dont tech in place).

vs some characters youre prob better off not thinking it out. mango said when hes gettin tech chased by falcons, sometimes he just rotates the stick and techs wherever.

a lot of time people think theyd be better off getting up as quick as possible and tech in place. you can use that to your advantage in certain situation and punish it. like when you bthrow a fast faller as fox towards the ledge so they land on the stage but are by the ledge.

idk, i could go on all day about teching lol

 

[Divinokage]

As Ganon, people tend to roll away from him since obviously you do not want to get punched in the face.. but if you read that then it's easy to follow up and punch them again. I like to dashdance in front of them while they are down and then I can follow up an easy read.

 

[Druggedfox]

I personally tech either towards the center or towards the character in general if my opponent is marth; risk vs reward assessment. If I tech towards the center, there's a lower chance of getting gimped; if I tech towards marth, theres a lower chance of getting tippered.

Also, I often tech the direction that is the "hardest" to follow up a lot of the time. For example on ganon's dthrow as fox/falco, I'll DI down+behind him and tech away. It forces the opponent to completely rely on prediction, rather than reaction, in such instances.

 

[Aldwyn McCloud]

In my personal case it depends on wheter the other charactar can reach me or not. If I know there's a tech that will allow me to get out of his range I will choose to use that one. Otherwise I usually just try the one I feel more unpredictable. As already mentioned stage position, the opponent's character and other factors influence the choice too. Being spiked on a platform from above will also often result in me not teching at all in order to exploit the get up attack. If he ever reads this thread, Amsah will hopefully give you more insight on techs. Out of all the guys I played I think he's the one with the most unpredictable techs.

 

[SwiftBass]

i notice that with marth that if I dthrow them(immediately) at the edge, they roll in........then i grab again and almost always occurs a neutral tech.

 

[Deleted member]

I always tech to the edge so I can die faster if caught.

 

[Skler]

Most people tech towards the center of the stage by default, it's insanely common. Even good players will tend to head towards the center because it's such a natural reaction.

The best players pretty much always mix it up though or choose the lowest risk option if they really can't get away (the whole "tech towards Marth" thing). I personally feel that teching in place is almost always the safest move against people who aren't really close to you, it takes fairly good timing to hit you in the few frames you're vulnerable before you can spot dodge/jab/shine/whatever. Then again, I mix it up anyways because always teching in place is still a good way to get hit.

 

[The_Doug]

Personally I've caught my Sheik teching in types of patterns against specific characters.

Usually my thought process after I've gotten caught is:

1) Which character is he? Ok Marth.
2) Quickly analyze which is a hard tech spot for him to punish.
3) Ok tech left because it can avoid a tipper.
*Techs*
4) He will most likely re-grab and pummel.
5) Switch to insane mash mode to escape pummel.
*Escapes*
6) Follow up with quickly timed dash attack/grab.

 

[forward]

I think that if the person can't catch you by doing a certain tech, you should always do that tech.

Against mid-level/novice players I spam tech in place because it's fast and hard to punish. Usually, they are not at the skill level to punish without putting in an insane amount of thought which then becomes easy to read because their movement completely changes.

I also do the rotate and tech against Falcon. If I don't know where I'm going to tech then how will they know? There's probably a higher probability though of teching left or right though because, I would imagine, during a rotation of the stick there are more points that will make you tech sideways than in place.

Some of the techs are very specific that come up a lot. Teching towards the ledge, for example, initially makes people tech towards the center. Good players caught onto this and punished those techs. Then good people played each other and one of them realized it would be unpredictable to tech towards the edge. People then get into that habit, it gets punished, new habits are formed, the cycle continues.

Maybe tech habits within the community change as more combos are discovered and more DI's are discovered. I know that sometimes I'll tech into a place that, even though I know I'll get caught, I'll be caught with a move that I can DI into a good position.

 

[Dr Peepee]

I really like your theory on a "teching metagame" Forward. However, is it unfair to assume that the better players changing this up are going through such processes/cycles many times a set because of the level of thought and conditioning with which they play the game? Maybe those in a teching "metagame" are not fully aware of how efficiently they need to switch up their techs in order to be successful at avoiding being punished.

Or maybe I'm just rambling and understating the psychology that goes into a tech chase and how okay it is for there to be a teching metagame and for it to not negatively effect anyone caught up in it(which I suppose would be everyone).

I hate it when I do this lol.

 

[Cactuar]

I usually wait to see what the person throwing me is doing, then I tech reacting to that.

Most commonly done against: Falcon, Sheik.

 

[Wobbles]

A way you can mess up people's tech-chase is to quickly tech opposite the way you are DI'ing. Most people will tech inward while DI'ing in, and I think the tech-chaser often reads into that unconsciously. So I DI stuff in only to tech out, and I get out of a lot of situations like that.

I remember when playing Brawl that in a situation where I had a roll or a mash escape scenario, I would just rotate my joystick as fast as I could while shielding. Made people kinda jumpy and never knew where I'd go.

 

[KishPrime]

I think that if you wanted to look at it experimentally, you could very easily analyze videos, look for signs of prediction from the person attempting to chase, and see if it makes them more successful or less successful against different opponents.

Assuming no safe options (I think we all are), I think when teching and getting up from the edge both (same game, really), early in the match, I try to condition the opponent to expect one thing by doing the same thing over and over again. After they start anticipating my "same thing," at that point I switch to a more random pattern and even avoid the initial move completely. Often, once someone gets "conditioned," it's almost impossible to break out of that conditioning without some mental separation from the match.

I used this philosophy regularly during matches. It's the "wall" mentality, if you're coming at this from a Sirlin standpoint. "I'm going to keep doing the same thing till you find out a way to beat it." However, I think this also has the side effect of gaining some advantage from having conditioned the opponent to expect one thing, and then being able to gain new advantages by contradicting their expectations.

The main flaw with this is that top players who are able to entirely rely on their reflexes to chase (which I think is a very, very small percentage of the Smash population) would be completely unaffected.

 

[forward]

Taj says he tech chases completely on reaction and when he gets going it can be hard to escape his chases. It's not fail-safe though, some of the tech/get ups look too similar. For example, missing a tech and then either standing in place or using a get up attack. It can be seen pretty clearly that it's not a roll but to distinguish it between attack and standing is hard to do.

Speaking of which I've seen some crazy mindgames with that tech. Get up attack beats the standing up tech chase, but shield grabbing beats the get up attack. I started waiting for the person to put up their shield waiting for the attack so I could roll away or behind them; they can follow that with a wd but it's not really fast enough to catch me before I can move again (roll, dodge, shine, etc.). People started putting up their shield to bait the roll away so they can wave dashing early to catch the roll away. Where I'm at now is that I've started doing the get up attack INTO a shield which hits their early WD.

 

[Druggedfox]

And thats why pure reaction solves all problems if its good enough =P

Screw the mindgames behind it, I'm marth and I have an amazing grab range etc etc

Though to be honest, several characters really should be relying almost *solely* on reaction, shouldn't they? Not nearly enough people abuse reaction, it seems.

 

[Hax]

I also do the rotate and tech against Falcon. If I don't know where I'm going to tech then how will they know? There's probably a higher probability though of teching left or right though because, I would imagine, during a rotation of the stick there are more points that will make you tech sideways than in place.

i don't agree with this, forward. as you said you're gonna be teching left/right more often than in place which is a falcon player's dream; it's REALLY easy to techchase teching left/right. i think i'd like your strategy more if you started out rolling the control stick, then stopping at a point that YOU actually choose. if you chose to tech in place that'd be tricky as hell

 

[KishPrime]

Though to be honest, several characters really should be relying almost *solely* on reaction, shouldn't they? Not nearly enough people abuse reaction, it seems.

Some characters should be able to do this, but I really don't think most players can. Even Forward mentions Taj is unstoppable "once he gets going." You have to really be on your game that day to get to that level of reaction time, and any loss of focus in the brain or mental tiredness will make it impossible to do so. We've all had that feeling of being "in the zone," and you can't force it.

Tech-chasing is just one of the hardest things to recognize-select response-input on controller in the time that you have. Also, eventually, even if you try to run off pure reaction, I think your brain can kick in and override your reactions without you realizing it once it thinks it knows what is going on.

 

[Druggedfox]

That's definitely true, but I think that, as with anything else, the more you focus on it the easier it becomes. Even if I'm not in the zone, the more I try it the more I can raise my base level "worst day" type of thing. In matchups like sheik vs fox where tech chasing is invaluable, I would much rather be fighting a sheik that tried to guess than a sheik that tried to react; even if they're not perfect with it, playing a reaction based tech chaser has always been far more to worry about for me. Or would you suggest that perhaps most players don't have a choice but to rely on prediction?

 

[forward]

i don't agree with this, forward. as you said you're gonna be teching left/right more often than in place which is a falcon player's dream; it's REALLY easy to techchase teching left/right. i think i'd like your strategy more if you started out rolling the control stick, then stopping at a point that YOU actually choose. if you chose to tech in place that'd be tricky as hell

Agreed. It's been awhile since I've played against a Falcon so my memory isn't clear but I think I do choose my tech after rotating the stick more often than not. I do recall a lot of times just rotating the stick and teching and losing a stock for it.

As for reaction, in the specific case of Sheik vs Fox, as a Fox player I don't mind at all when I see the sheik trying to tech cahse off of reaction because in my experience it's easy to take advantage of. Here's how:

If it appears that they are going off of reactions, I'll tech in place and go for a shine. It is very fast and 98% of the time people will get shined if they try to react to a tech in place with a grab; they don't react quick enough to grab before my shine hits. If I do get grabbed, then it clues me in that they're using more prediction than reaction, so I'll do the same DI that led to my tech in place and tech to the side instead, most of the time they grab as I tech and I roll away safely.

IMO the best way to tech chase is learn the psychology behind people's techs and develop your intuition to people's techs. The conditioning strategy is good, and it's also good to be aware of it in case people are trying to do it to you. When I'm being tech chased myself I know I'll intentionally tech the same way to condition them for that. It gets them to the point of where they stop thinking about tech chasing and they do the pattern their hands have developed. Afterwords I try to use the most strategic time to switch that tech so that I'm in the best position to punish them and follow up that punish.

I think that in general I tech in a 75/25 way. I do one tech 75% of the time for conditioning and use the 25% tech for the times that I see most valuable. To repeatedly tech one way is tricking enough and if the person doesn't catch onto it quick enough then they develop tells (think poker) that clues me in on when they will try to punish that 75% tech, at which point it is easy to tech differently.

 

[KishPrime]

Yeah, to toss out some random numbers, I'm suggesting that probably only the top 5% of players can do a 3+ tech-chase chain 50% of the time on reaction alone (assuming that the techs can all be followed up on) against that same top 5% of players. It all occurs too fast to apply no prediction and still be successful.

That's my belief. I'd love to hear some other opinions.

EDIT: Forward's description of his "test" for prediction is interesting. I also will note that it's best to tech for conditioning when they can't catch you. For example, tech away every single time that they can't catch you, so that when you are positioned so that they can catch you, you can switch it up and do something different. Usually, it's a win-win; you never get caught when they can't get to you, and they predict the wrong tech when they can, throwing off their timing.

 

[Druggedfox]

Eh simply looking at the frame data it's within the plausible reaction time for a human being, but oh well; I guess I'll wait to see what other people think.

 

[KishPrime]

It's not just reaction time. It's recognition plus response plus input plus character action. So it's double-triple instinctive reaction time to complete a successful tech chase.

 

[Wobbles]

On REALLY good days I could trap space animals against the ledge with just Popo for 5-6 reps with b-throws and d-throws. And it would get me a whole thirty percent or something.

Good times.

 

[Druggedfox]

And imagine if you were actually a good character!

 

[Druggedfox]

Double post

 

[unknown522]

I dunno, tech to try and avoid the other person or create a situation that will prevent them from following you (like falling off the edge, or if they're spamming moves at you).

Different situations call for different techs. Sometimes you don't want to tech the same way 3 times in a row or something.

 

[g-regulate]

I've always thought that "fast" players, really technical spacies especailly, love to tech in place a lot, because its the "fastest" way to recover and they just do it by habit, trying to be fast. Obviously smart players will switch it up, but just something I've noticed and tried to capitalize on in the past.

My favorite is the guy who techs repeatedly the same way to "mindgame" you, but you just mindlessly keep punishing that spot. hilarious.

 

[Cactuar]

I've been able to successfully tech chase a Sheik player with Fox's downthrow from 0-108ish into a dthrow tech chase upsmash. This is including mixups in their DI causing them to land both in front and behind me with no tech, tech in place, and tech in either direction.

I can dthrow tech chase samus consistently, and tri-state samus players will confirm this.

And back when I was a terrible player in second round pools of FC6, I tech chased the two stocks I took from darkrain each matches with Marth, taking him from 0 to 90-ish both times on only fthrow and dthrow. I stopped playing like that because I thought it was stupid...



On an average day, I can dthrow tech chase with fox about 50%. On a good day, that goes up to around 80%. On a bad day, I have to guess (I don't bother and just use uthrow). I've found that how I've been eating and how much sleep I've gotten plays a big part in how quickly I can react.

 

[Deleted member]

fair > grab downthrow w/ marth obliterates falcon.

 

[Druggedfox]

Nobody believes me when I say marth tech chases falcon like crazy >_>

 

[KishPrime]

Nobody believes me when I say marth tech chases falcon like crazy >_>

This was all I did back in 2004 when I started having problems with Falcon.

 

[Druggedfox]

Then why such an objection to the plausibility of consistently tech chasing on reaction?

 

[Divinokage]

Then why such an objection to the plausibility of consistently tech chasing on reaction?

Because there's only a select few that can do it and it might be because of talent.

 

[KishPrime]

I never said I did it well. I recognized it as effective, hybrid'd it with prediction and messed up a lot.

Just because I could tell it was a good strategy doesn't mean I ever put in the time to do it better, unfortunately. Marth was only one of my mains for about a year, and I wasn't practicing enough to keep up more than one character. I left out that even employing this, I still lost to Falcon. :/ I did do better with that strategy than my other characters, though.

 

[Cactuar]

Truth. There was a period of time when I didn't understand why all Marth players didn't play like that vs Falcon. And then I tried to "teach" someone how to do it...

Which was really just... "Throw them. Look where they go. Grab them again."

It didn't really work out so well.

It's one of the simplest things to do in theory, but the actual execution has a huge variation between players because of the reaction time involved.

 

[ArcNatural]

I'm not entirely sure reaction time explained like that is the main factor. M2k has stated that he has normal reaction time (I guess you would know for sure if M2k is just in denial of his own reaction time) and still tech chases extremely well.

I think it has more to do with how you process information and how you respond to your reaction. I guess what I mean is the physical reaction response in connection with your mental reaction needs to be in sync. How you process "he went left" + how fast you grab going left.

I think a lot of people just put more effort in mentally "trying to react" instead of physically, therefore, slowing their own response of doing it instinctively. Basically just how anything else you do via repetition gets faster/smoother over time due to how much LESS time you have to think about the execution.

I guess what I'm trying to say is you have your natural talents at it. But it's not out of the realm of the average player to get extremely good at tech chasing imo.

 

[Divinokage]

Definitely also experience helps a great deal to react to every situation.. because for example if you don't know certain things.. how can you expect to react to them.. it's like getting punched in the face, do you know how to block a punch? No? Well then keep getting punched!! lol. Anyways, that's how I see it.. I had to drill the **** out of something before I got it right.

 

[KishPrime]

I guess what I'm trying to say is you have your natural talents at it. But it's not out of the realm of the average player to get extremely good at tech chasing imo.

I'm still sticking by my 5%/50% rule for 3+ tech chains. It's just so much harder than it seems like it should be, even for the players at the top of the charts.