Why aren't there any "similar normals, different specials" semi-echoes? (as opposed to "similar specials, different normals")

Quillion

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#1
When it comes to semi-echoes, there are three general patterns I can see:
  • They have mostly similar specials and normals to their template: (:ultdoc:, :ultpichu:, :ultyounglink:)
  • They have mostly similar specials, but different normals to their template: (:ultfalco:, :ultganondorf:, :ultlucas:,:ultroy:, :ulttoonlink:, :ultwolf:)
  • Specials and normals are about half-similar, half-different to their template: (:ultluigi:, :ultisabelle:)
But oddly, despite Sakurai's penchant for using semi-echoes and echoes to decrease overall resources when plausible (mostly), we don't have any semi-echoes that mostly have similar normals, but different specials.

I personally don't get it, since having semi-echoes that share normals but not specials would be one of the best ways of creating the illusion of unique characters without doing too much animation work; they would only need to fully animate four moves as opposed to the jab, tilts, Smashes, airs, grab, and throws. Besides, normals aside from Smashes aren't particularly unique; most would admit that specials help more in appearing (not necessarily being) unique as they are "specials" after all.

I guess Jigglypuff in 64 was one of Kirby, but that ship has sailed, and now we're left with no semi-echoes that mainly share normals but not specials.
 

rlwrgh

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#2
The Castlevania characters kind of have this with the holy water difference and it is also the main function of the miis, but more would be good. I agree with your idea that it would be easier to make a character seem more unique just by changing the 4 specials. Off the top of my head it won't ever happen but since I'm a fan of starfox I want slippy and peppy in using this type of treatment, and with the work they had in smash 4 with the custom moves there is some precident for that though idk if any of that work would be able to be copy pasted or used to save them any deleopment time.
 
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#3
The Castlevania characters kind of have this with the holy water difference and it is also the main function of the miis, but more would be good. I agree with your idea that it would be easier to make a character seem more unique just by changing the 4 specials. Off the top of my head it won't ever happen but since I'm a fan of starfox I want slippy and peppy in using this type of treatment, and with the work they had in smash 4 with the custom moves there is some precident for that though idk if any of that work would be able to be copy pasted or used to save them any deleopment time.
Would Slippy and Peppy use weapons from Assault, or would they go more original like Fox was? I feel the latter is more likely since Nintendo ignores all of the non-EPD-developed Star Fox titles.

I think other good candidates for "similar normals, different specials" semi-echoes would be Galacta Knight to Meta Knight, and a revamp of the other Links to Link (plus an OoT/TP Link full echo for good measure).
 
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#4
I’d argue changing the Specials doesn’t even need to be done to make a character feel unique. You’d be surprised at how different, sat, Daisy would feel if her counter healed instead of counterattacking, or plucked the same vegetables every time, and so on.

That’s not to say I disagree with your point. I’ve been campaigning for a Shadow Mario cline with different specials for years, but this seems like the best time for semiclones to live up to their fullest potential.
 
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#5
I’d argue changing the Specials doesn’t even need to be done to make a character feel unique. You’d be surprised at how different, sat, Daisy would feel if her counter healed instead of counterattacking, or plucked the same vegetables every time, and so on.
I agree that just changing hitbox properties or frame data is enough to make a character feel unique even if they're an echo. But I said "appearing" unique, not necessarily being unique.

Those seem like cool ideas for Daisy, though. I'd say that her Down B should have her pull out various sports balls.
 

rlwrgh

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#6
Perhaps this will become an unofficial thing when the modding community opens up this game more.

Perhaps this will become an unofficial thing when the modding community opens up this game more.
would it be within the intent of your op to come up with examples of this or should I open a new topic?
 
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#8
They have mostly similar specials and normals to their template: (:ultdoc:, :ultpichu:, :ultyounglink:)
*JonTron voice* Excuse me, whaaaaaaat?

I don't play Pichu very much, so I can't speak for them, but like... Doc and Yink are only superficially similar. Both of them have PLENTY of moves that their "original" counterparts don't have (and in Doc's case, absolutely should have dammit). So I don't see how you can say they're "mostly similar".
 
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#9
*JonTron voice* Excuse me, whaaaaaaat?

I don't play Pichu very much, so I can't speak for them, but like... Doc and Yink are only superficially similar. Both of them have PLENTY of moves that their "original" counterparts don't have (and in Doc's case, absolutely should have dammit). So I don't see how you can say they're "mostly similar".
Man, I really hate it when people deny the similarities with moves just on the numbers behind them even though the animations are anywhere from similar to identical.

Really, is Doc just having different animations for d-air, b-throw, side special, and down special really "plenty" to you?
 
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#10
*JonTron voice* Excuse me, whaaaaaaat?

I don't play Pichu very much, so I can't speak for them, but like... Doc and Yink are only superficially similar. Both of them have PLENTY of moves that their "original" counterparts don't have (and in Doc's case, absolutely should have dammit). So I don't see how you can say they're "mostly similar".
This is purely on animation alone.

Moves that Mario doesn't have that Doc does:

*Dair
*B-Throw
*Neutral B (arguably)
*Side B (arguably)
*Down B

Moves that YL has that Link doesn't:

*Dash Attack
*Grab (throws are identical)
*Down B
 
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#11
Man, I really hate it when people deny the similarities with moves just on the numbers behind them even though the animations are anywhere from similar to identical.

Really, is Doc just having different animations for d-air, b-throw, side special, and down special really "plenty" to you?
I would need to boot up Smash and run through their movesets to give exact examples (which I'm not going to since it's freaking two am over here), but I can guarantee there's way more than just that.

Also, "different animations"? Yeah, the only difference between a rapidly spinning drop and a mid-air stomp is the animation, is it? The only difference between using fire and electricity is the animation, is it? The only difference between a special hitting from the side and below is animation, is it?
 
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#12
I would need to boot up Smash and run through their movesets to give exact examples (which I'm not going to since it's freaking two am over here), but I can guarantee there's way more than just that.

Also, "different animations"? Yeah, the only difference between a rapidly spinning drop and a mid-air stomp is the animation, is it? The only difference between using fire and electricity is the animation, is it? The only difference between a special hitting from the side and below is animation, is it?
Look, I'm not saying that they play identically. I'm saying that several moves are similar, either due to animation, numbers/properties, or some combination of the two.

And believe me, I'm not part of the "clones suck" crowd. I agree that just copying animations for another character, then modifying the hitbox properties and/or frames will make them play differently.

But video games are a visual medium. You can parrot that mechanics matter more than visuals all you want, but it's clear that they copied and or tweaked certain moves to make another character. Just making Mario's n-air's clean hit later in the move for Doc doesn't make it not similar. Just reusing a lot of Smash 4 Link's animations for Young Link doesn't make him not similar to lefty Link.

I can tell you're passionate about the idea of semi-echoes being their own character, but if you're just here to deny similarities between semi-echoes and their templates. I suggest you don't participate in this topic.
 
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#13
Look, I'm not saying that they play identically. I'm saying that several moves are similar, either due to animation, numbers/properties, or some combination of the two.

And believe me, I'm not part of the "clones suck" crowd. I agree that just copying animations for another character, then modifying the hitbox properties and/or frames will make them play differently.

But video games are a visual medium. You can parrot that mechanics matter more than visuals all you want, but it's clear that they copied and or tweaked certain moves to make another character. Just making Mario's n-air's clean hit later in the move for Doc doesn't make it not similar. Just reusing a lot of Smash 4 Link's animations for Young Link doesn't make him not similar to lefty Link.

I can tell you're passionate about the idea of semi-echoes being their own character, but if you're just here to deny similarities between semi-echoes and their templates. I suggest you don't participate in this topic.
You didn't say "SEVERAL" you said "MOST". And if you're not part of the "clones suck crowd" you're certainly acting like it.

I'm not here to "deny" anything except that Doc is way more than just a copy-paste of Mario. Hell, I've argued in the past that Mario should have DOC's moveset more than anything (heck i might even make a topic about that here...). And to accuse me of somehow thinking ALL semi-echoes aren't identical for it and telling me not to participate is horse**** and you ****ing know it.
 
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#14
You didn't say "SEVERAL" you said "MOST".
Yeah, most of the moves are still similar. I just didn't want to repeat words over and over.

And if you're not part of the "clones suck crowd" you're certainly acting like it.
Then explain why I want semi-echoes that share normals but not specials.

I'm not here to "deny" anything except that Doc is way more than just a copy-paste of Mario. Hell, I've argued in the past that Mario should have DOC's moveset more than anything (heck i might even make a topic about that here...). And to accuse me of somehow thinking ALL semi-echoes aren't identical for it and telling me not to participate is horse**** and you ****ing know it.
And I'm not saying that Doc is a Mario copy-paste. But a lot of aspects, hell most moves, were copied and tweaked to make the semi-echoes. For some they do something like make Mario's n-air be strong on late rather than clean; for others they change the animation for Doc's Side-B (plus it doesn't help recover, but oh well). But again: just changing those frames and/or hitbox properties on most moves, even with identical, non-edited animations, are enough to make the characters play different. Please don't make me repeat myself further.

And when I said "you shouldn't participate in this topic", literally all you're doing is attacking me for commenting about those three characters fulfilling a certain general pattern of semi-echoes, which is only tangentially related. You haven't said a single word about why there aren't any "similar normals, different specials" semi-echoes.

In all honesty, I think you're just as bad as the "clones suck" crowd if you're attacking my desires as someone who is part of it.
 
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#16
I would need to boot up Smash and run through their movesets to give exact examples (which I'm not going to since it's freaking two am over here), but I can guarantee there's way more than just that.

Also, "different animations"? Yeah, the only difference between a rapidly spinning drop and a mid-air stomp is the animation, is it? The only difference between using fire and electricity is the animation, is it? The only difference between a special hitting from the side and below is animation, is it?
Nobody discredits their playstyles, which everyone agrees are distinct.

It has been stated how stats and property changes distinguish a move from others.

And many people are aware of the different interactions between elemental attributes.

But it would be unwise to discard animations.

Quillon could have definitely used a better tone, though.
 
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#17
Even changing something like the stats of a character such as run speed, jump height, attack damage, or even hitbox properties can make them feel completely different. Think for example Falco, Young Link, or even Ganondorf all in Melee. With only one wholey unique thing to them and the rest were stat differences or hitbox properties but felt very different to play and that was perfectly fine. If they would've done the same with Smash4 Clones or Ultimate Echoes I would've been perfectly down for it. Easy ones that come to mind are Richter is slower and weaker than Simon but is faster and his holy water travels forward along the ground when used instead of stationary.

TL:DR Simple stat changes go a long way
 
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#18
I think Isabelle comes closest towards what you are saying OP. However, I’d like more characters included like this. I also agree the Star Fox cast could work like this, always was an advocate for more clonish newcomers like this as long as the character they’re adding is worth it, for example; Toad, Slippy Toad, Impa, Funky Kong, Raichu, Charizard X, Mewtwo Y/X (one a total glass canon the other heavier with more brawling moves) ... name it. There’s lots to work with still!
 
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#19
The Castlevania characters kind of have this with the holy water difference...
The difference between their Holy Waters is literally the most insignificant detail possible. Literally the only difference between those two moves is their elemental properties. They are the epitome of the wasted potential that most of the Smash Ultimate echoes are.

Contrast that with Ness and Lucas* whose specials are clearly based on the same theme, but have way more differentiating characteristics:

PK Fire
  • Ness's traps you in fire, Lucas's explodes.
  • Ness's travels 45 degrees downward in air, Lucas's always travels straight horizontal.
PK Thunder
  • Lucas's turns tighter
  • Ness's in stronger, but disappears when the head touches a fighter. Lucas's continues.
Their PSI Magnets are also different, but I'm not confident I know the differences well enough to list them. Point is that even though their specials look similar, there are enough difference between them that those differences affect how you use them in every aspect of the match, and not just a boring technical difference like "one hurts Red Pikmin, the other can set off bombs". Any idiot can tell the difference between Ness's and Lucas's specials after using them for one match, but you have to be told the difference between the two Belmonts' Holy Waters.

* I know they're not echoes! That's not the point.
 
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#20
Even changing something like the stats of a character such as run speed, jump height, attack damage, or even hitbox properties can make them feel completely different. Think for example Falco, Young Link, or even Ganondorf all in Melee. With only one wholey unique thing to them and the rest were stat differences or hitbox properties but felt very different to play and that was perfectly fine. If they would've done the same with Smash4 Clones or Ultimate Echoes I would've been perfectly down for it. Easy ones that come to mind are Richter is slower and weaker than Simon but is faster and his holy water travels forward along the ground when used instead of stationary.

TL:DR Simple stat changes go a long way
Yeah, I don't even get why they're not doing stat changes for echoes anymore.

But even then, I don't get why they choose to declone most echoes by changing their normals but only one special at most. It seems like less work to just change the four specials rather than 11 normals.
 
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#21
I think the rest the reason is quite clear, they spend a lot of work into the returning of all earlier Smash games, newcomers outside of the obvious most wanted requested like K.Rool and Ridley mixed with other personal picks amongst the popular and realizable whereby not a top priority. They where made to beef up the total amount of playable characters, much like in Melee but even with less priority. In Melee, the clones where added to add into the total amount of newcomers. They had nothing else as main priority, Ultimate had! This is why they went so far to add every previous character back. I would also argue the Melee clones where more important/ requested / “core” characters around that time. And went for statistical differences from the original characters. In hindsight, we should be thankful for he differences in Echoes as Chrom and Ken. They play quite a lot different in the end from their counter parts.

I myself am totally down for more clones, as long as they are good worthy additions and not totally random and unfitting. There’s lots of possibilities still, especially amongst Nintendo ranch uses that haven’t had a newcomer for a long time; Zelda, Kirby, Star Fox.. these are the franchises that started Smash. To make things more interesting, they could bring back stuff from earlier Smash games.
 
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#22
I think the rest the reason is quite clear, they spend a lot of work into the returning of all earlier Smash games, newcomers outside of the obvious most wanted requested like K.Rool and Ridley mixed with other personal picks amongst the popular and realizable whereby not a top priority. They where made to beef up the total amount of playable characters, much like in Melee but even with less priority. In Melee, the clones where added to add into the total amount of newcomers. They had nothing else as main priority, Ultimate had! This is why they went so far to add every previous character back. I would also argue the Melee clones where more important/ requested / “core” characters around that time. And went for statistical differences from the original characters. In hindsight, we should be thankful for he differences in Echoes as Chrom and Ken. They play quite a lot different in the end from their counter parts.

I myself am totally down for more clones, as long as they are good worthy additions and not totally random and unfitting. There’s lots of possibilities still, especially amongst Nintendo ranch uses that haven’t had a newcomer for a long time; Zelda, Kirby, Star Fox.. these are the franchises that started Smash. To make things more interesting, they could bring back stuff from earlier Smash games.
I know the Melee echoes are started out as straight clones with different stats, but later games differentiated their normals. Brawl's semi-echoes started out sharing specials but not normals. Ultimate's echoes, Chrom and Ken aside, share stats and normals.

What I'm wondering is why they won't change specials and not normals on semi-echoes. Again, just changing 4 specials instead of 11 normals seems like less work.
 
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#23
What I'm wondering is why they won't change specials and not normals on semi-echoes. Again, just changing 4 specials instead of 11 normals seems like less work.
Well, it can actually result in more work depending on the direction they take with the specials.

Of course, this would apply mostly in extreme cases.

Their PSI Magnets are also different, but I'm not confident I know the differences well enough to list them.
Ness's covers his whole body, while Lucas's is projected from his hand, giving him a blindspot in his back. Lucas's heals more, but has slightly more endlag.
 

Quillion

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#24
Well, it can actually result in more work depending on the direction they take with the specials.

Of course, this would apply mostly in extreme cases.
Maybe if they're going to make the specials have all-new mechanics, sure. But say if they gave Toon Link new specials based on his Wind Waker's items. Deku Leaf recovery would work like G&W's up-B, Skull Hammer could work like DK's headbutt, and Grappling Hook could work like Isabelle's side-B.
 
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#25
Maybe if they're going to make the specials have all-new mechanics, sure. But say if they gave Toon Link new specials based on his Wind Waker's items. Deku Leaf recovery would work like G&W's up-B, Skull Hammer could work like DK's headbutt, and Grappling Hook could work like Isabelle's side-B.
I'd still say that takes a fair amount of work.
 

ze9

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#27
Specials are the most defining moves of a character, if you're gonna give someone 4 unique specials you might as well just go all-in and make a complete new moveset.
They also probably take longer than normal moves to program/balance. Just think of how many more weird interactions are born from Isabelle's fishing rod or Ridley's scraping you against the floor compared to, say, Luigi's fireball having a different trajectory or Wolf's slightly stonger reflector which are both based on things already in the game.
 
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