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Why are so many people assuming Switch releases will be in?

PSIGuy

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Every Smash game takes most of it's influence from the previous generation: the games that are already out when project planning starts. This leads to the likes of GameCube debuts in Brawl (Ike and Olimar), Wii debuts in Smash 4 (Wii Fit Trainer, Shulk, Rosalina, Wii design Little Mac) and logically, to Wii U debuts in Smash 5. Exceptions prove the rule; there's always special circumstances around characters like Roy, Greninja and Corrin that don't apply to the rest of the roster or how Smash's development pipeline generally works. When characters are added after the planning process, it results in delays like Sonic in Brawl.
But in Smash 5 speculation you see a lot of Switch-based speculation even though the game would've been in development before it was revealed, or before people knew about Arms, Xenoblade 2 etc. Even third-party hopes are based on games GETTING Switch releases sometimes announced in the same direct that Smash was! (Crash, Dark Souls, Skyrim, Doom to name a few). Considering how every Smash game up until now has worked, this doesn't make sense unless you assume Sakurai looked at every in-development game for newcomers, which is a huge assumption to make and a gross misunderstanding of just how Smash development has worked. Sakurai saying he liked Xenoblade 2 in December doesn't mean much when he started development a year before that in June!

Let's look at the newest elements to get in any Smash, for comparison. The exceptions that prove the rule.
  • Roy (Melee): A clone of Marth was always going to be in Melee. In the time it takes to make one clone, you could make 1/6th of a newcomer (Dedede was dropped to allow for more characters). When Sakurai looked at his potential picks for a Marth clone, he looked ahead instead of behind. Roy's personality in-game is also very different from Roy's personality in FE6, one of the dangers of including an unreleased character.
  • Sonic: added late in Brawl's development, delaying the game yet again. Also note; Sonic is a third party, had a huge rivalry with Mario and is basically a big deal. Compare with Greninja. Sonic is a character worth delaying Smash for.
  • Robin and Lucina: Awakening was out a month before project planning for Smash 4 started. Clones take less time to make, hence Lucina. While Chrom was considered during development, they settled on Robin with enough time left to implement him.
  • Palutena and Dark Pit: Uprising was Sakurai's project before moving onto Smash 4. Again, clones take less time to make, hence Dark Pit.
  • Bowser Jr: Was supposedly nearly cut, but the staff managed to pull through. Note that there's no mention of delaying the game to allow for more time for Bowser Jr; if he wasn't finished in time, he wouldn't be in at all. Contrast with Sonic (who was worth delaying the game for) and Greninja (who was important enough to be planned from the start with high priority).
  • Greninja: Pokemon is literally Nintendo's biggest moneymaker, and The Pokemon Company's say is pretty important. He's also got an entirely original moveset; not a clone or last minute addition like Melee Roy, Smash 4 Lucina/Dark Pit. Sakurai still had to look at several different references for different potential Pokemon, decided on Greninja, brainstormed his moveset in a day and sent it to The Pokemon Company for feedback. Including a character like Greninja is a lot of work, not something done on a whim.
  • Yoshi's Woolly World (stage): originally a Kirby's Epic Yarn stage that was modified to be Yoshi-based when that game was revealed. Compare modifying one yarn stage into another yarn stage with, say, picking a future character for a Marth clone over using an older character. When most of the work is already done and you just need to modify some basic elements, it's concievable you could promote an upcoming release without too much prior planning.
  • Super Mario Maker (DLC stage): DLC stage based on the June release, available for download on September 30th.
  • Corrin (DLC newcomer): DLC pipeline is very different, Fates would've been out since June and Corrin was revealed in December. Furthermore, the final DLC spot was designated to promote an upcoming Nintendo game.
  • Breath of the Wild Link: This design's been around since 2015. BotW was originally a Wii U game for crying out loud!
  • Inklings: All footage of them so far is based on Splatoon 1, a Wii U game.
Everything on this list was either made post-launch, took less effort (clone, reskin), based on something that was out long enough for Sakurai to reference it, either forced the game to be delayed or would've been cut if not finished in time. The sole exception to all of these is Greninja, now one of the most popular Pokemon of all time according to most polls. If you want the references to any given points, you can search SourceGaming.com or you can ask me to provide a source. Either way, the point is clear; the red carpet treatment for newcomers is restricted to Pokemon and third-party superstars.
For reference, I DO think that the likes of Rex/Pyra and Springman or some other Arms rep will make their way into Smash... but not at launch. The Switch has been pushing post-launch DLC and content pretty hard, so it'd make sense to announce new characters a year or so after launch to give the game more longetivity while promoting other releases on the console. But the focus with concurrently developed games getting into Smash 5 at launch is getting silly, honestly.
 
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Ben Holt

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Because Sakurai obviously has access to internal Nintendo documents. He even got to see concept art for Greninja, and Game Freak and The Pokemon Company tend to be VERY stingy with the Pokemon IP.
It's safe to assume that Sakurai knew of Mario Odyssey, Splatoon 2, and ARMS for well over a year before they were announced to us. He's bound to know of other games not even announced yet.
 

NintenRob

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Smash Wii U and 3DS had more from the Wii U and 3DS content then you mentioned

Mushroom Kingdom U
Garden of Hope and Alph alt
Gamer
Mario Circuit (which released the same year as Smash)
Lots of X and Y content
Sonic Lost World
Gerudo Valley (for the 3D remake)
3D Land
Golden Plains
Rainbow Road
Arena Ferox
Tortimer Island and even Isabelle assist


Smash just seems to focus on what's new that the last Smash couldn't cover, regardless of the system. We'll probably get a number of Wii U and 3DS stages. But we'll probably get a few Switch stuff too. Sakurai is given insight on coming content and stages probably aren't all decided on from the beginning. As for Characters, Sakurai still would likely have had insight on upcoming projects and prepared for it, in Brawl, he even had a Fire Emblem placeholder to prepare for a Fire Emblem character who turned into Ike because he was to be the main character in the upcoming Fire Emblem game.

Is it hard to believe he would have had a Xenoblade placeholder, pre knowledge of ARMS and the usual discussions with the Game Freak.
 

Morbi

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I will give you a hint, it has to do with the console that this game is launching on. They are not making Smash for the sake of it, fam. They expect it to be profitable. For all I know, they are so desperate that they will add a damned 1-2 Switch representative. I nominate the guy trying to count the balls.
 

Rocket Raccoon

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This new game has BOTW Link, sure it was released on Wii U but that's not what he was trying to cover here.
 

Superyoshiom

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The last smash hasn’t the benefit of coming after the end of a long and successful console generation with the wii and ds. Since the Wii U’s life was cut short there isn’t too much new stuff he could take save for the Inklings.
 

LancerStaff

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We’re really scraping the bottom of the barrel here.

If we don’t get, oh say, Springman, then who else could we have that would create some buzz?
 

PSIGuy

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We’re really scraping the bottom of the barrel here.

If we don’t get, oh say, Springman, then who else could we have that would create some buzz?
Anyone who scored well on the Smash ballot they held? Bayonetta was the most "realizable" character but that still leaves with them a good lead for third parties and older Nintendo characters that are still popular.
 

LancerStaff

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Anyone who scored well on the Smash ballot they held? Bayonetta was the most "realizable" character but that still leaves with them a good lead for third parties and older Nintendo characters that are still popular.
If you’re implying characters like K. Rool or Issac would be as big as the star of a new major franchise... Then I think you need to step out of the echo chamber for a moment.

To be honest they had virtually every important first party character included as of Brawl. Then the third parties are much harder to attain.

If anything with Bayonetta winning the Ballot it just means that it was mostly third parties up at the top. Getting the rights to a significant number of them would be difficult to say the least. Bayo is partly owned by Nintendo and the rest Sega, so they didn’t have to work very hard to include her.
 

soviet prince

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k rool and ridley would get a lot of positive attention
 

DakotaBonez

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PSI Guy you totally right. But damn I would really like to see some inspiration from BOTW and Odyssey in Link and Mario's movesets.

I think we'll definitely be seeing new content from ARMS appear as DLC,
if they don't manage to add any thing from ARMS in the remaining development time.

Would be a damn shame to not feature New Donk

We’re really scraping the bottom of the barrel here.

If we don’t get, oh say, Springman, then who else could we have that would create some buzz?
Goku
 
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papagenos

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Yeah this is essentially why im wary of springman making it when seemingly everyone else thinks hes a shoe-in.

We have NEVER gotten a new game series represented in smash until it has been around for at least one console and proven to have staying power or had significant impact on gamers from that "era". We dont get olimar (gamecube)until brawl(wii), we didnt get wii fit and miis (wii) until smash 4 (wiiu) and we didnt get inkling (wiiu) until this new smash (switch). While sakurai DOES take characters from current generation systems, they have always been from established series like pokemon/fe and not new series getting represented.

Now sakurai always breaks his "rules" and I could see nintendo pushing arms or labo or whatever else is new to switch to get a rep but there is plenty of evidence that isnt how they choose new series, might be wary of adding a flavor of the month game series and having to "cut" a whole series if it doesnt prove to be popular or relevant in the future instead of just characters.
 

Bladeviper

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Yeah this is essentially why im wary of springman making it when seemingly everyone else thinks hes a shoe-in.

We have NEVER gotten a new game series represented in smash until it has been around for at least one console and proven to have staying power or had significant impact on gamers from that "era". We dont get olimar (gamecube)until brawl(wii), we didnt get wii fit and miis (wii) until smash 4 (wiiu) and we didnt get inkling (wiiu) until this new smash (switch). While sakurai DOES take characters from current generation systems, they have always been from established series like pokemon/fe and not new series getting represented.

Now sakurai always breaks his "rules" and I could see nintendo pushing arms or labo or whatever else is new to switch to get a rep but there is plenty of evidence that isnt how they choose new series, might be wary of adding a flavor of the month game series and having to "cut" a whole series if it doesnt prove to be popular or relevant in the future instead of just characters.
i think its more of timing than a rule, the first splatoon came out after smash so putting them in might have been a risk they didnt want to take, arms is already out and people seemed to like it well enough to get a character in.
 

-crump-

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k rool and ridley would get a lot of positive attention
Among Smash fans, sure. The casual audience doesn’t know or care about K. Rool (I can already see all the “eww, why would they put some fat crocidile in Smash over [blank]??), and Ridley is only slightly more recognizable because of his meme status.

A new, popular character from a Switch game would realistically turn more heads than almost any of the Ballot characters, at least outside the hardcore Smash communiy.

EDIT: Just to be clear, I love K. Rool and I hope against hope he makes it in this time, but you’re kidding yourself if you think he would be met with universal praise.
 
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MrRoidley

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it depends a lot on what Nintendo (or Intelligent Systems/Pokemon Company/etc) wants to be included.
If Nintendo thinks a Mario Odyssey level is interesting in Smash, they will definitely have planned themselves further and show Sakurai info on whatever they're working. Wasn't that somewhat the case with Greninja?
plus I'm sure Sakurai asks Nintendo about some insider knowledge. SSB4 did a great job in representing more current stuff compared with other games, I think only SSB64 was able to do that. Like a stage based on Bayonetta 3 or Metroid Prime 4 is unlikely, or hell even Kirby Star Allies, but say, Samus Returns? I strongly believe the Metroid stage will come from that game (bc the other most recent source is Federation Force for crying out loud lol)
About the Arms situation that I can agree with, but it all depends if Nintendo thinks it's interesting to put an Arms character or not
 

Starlight_Lily

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We’re really scraping the bottom of the barrel here.

If we don’t get, oh say, Springman, then who else could we have that would create some buzz?
People forgetting about successful 3DS eshop titles, like Dillion's Rolling Western and Pushmo...

We still have games that are new IPs from last gen, that can be pulled from, they're just not really on the Wii U, they're on the 3DS.
 

Curious Villager

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People forgetting about successful 3DS eshop titles, like Dillion's Rolling Western and Pushmo...

We still have games that are new IPs from last gen, that can be pulled from, they're just not really on the Wii U, they're on the 3DS.
Pushmo had a game on the Wii U, though it was definitely more popular on the 3DS though considering it got two further sequels for that afterwards.
 

Starlight_Lily

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Pushmo had a game on the Wii U, though it was definitely more popular on the 3DS though considering it got two further sequels for that afterwards.
I thought Pushmo debut on the 3DS, that's why I placed with the 3DS and not the Wii U.
 

RouffWestie

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It's a very safe bet to assume they're going to promote current releases. That's the easiest way to appeal to their largest audience.
 

ErenJager

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I think we'll see the inclusion of some Switch content because Sakurai tried to keep on the cutting edge of what was coming on the Wii U version.

But to see full on characters, there will likely be very few, probably ones given special consideration.
Much like Greninja was given.
 

DakotaBonez

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I think we'll see the inclusion of some Switch content because Sakurai tried to keep on the cutting edge of what was coming on the Wii U version.

But to see full on characters, there will likely be very few, probably ones given special consideration.
Much like Greninja was given.
Yeah Smash4 DID include a lot of current-gen content like the Yoshi stage, Steel Diver item, Greninja, and was later patched with stuff like the Mario Maker stage.
All of the aforementioned content was either current-gen content, or content that was still in early development. The possibility of DLC later means that anything that's popular this gen, but wasn't included, will most likely be included post-release.

Although this thread has got me thinking that last-gen 3DS nintendo-franchises like Dillon, Rhythm Heaven, etc... are guaranteed to appear. Were there any new WiiU franchises besides Captain Toad?
 
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LancerStaff

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People forgetting about successful 3DS eshop titles, like Dillion's Rolling Western and Pushmo...

We still have games that are new IPs from last gen, that can be pulled from, they're just not really on the Wii U, they're on the 3DS.
That’s the thing. They’re just minor eshop games. Dillion’s the only one who could conceivably be a character anyway, and he’s not exactly lighting the world on fire.

They’re not going to make a Smash game and add just one or two big ticket characters.
 

Ben Holt

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Just saying, Sakurai already knows the Metroid Prime 4 designs for Samus and Ridley.
 

Quillion

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PSIGuy PSIGuy : You make a good point. Especially considering that Smash Switch has probably been in development since before ARMS.

I don't imagine that HAL can really adapt to every Switch release since Smash jas started development.
 

PSIGuy

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Just saying, Sakurai already knows the Metroid Prime 4 designs for Samus and Ridley.
"Hello, please make Samus use this new design!" is not comparable to "Hello, this character has yet to be be in even a single video game but they will be soon, please create a model, completely original moveset and effects for them!"
A single character has relied on pre-release internal design documents for an entirely original moveset, and that character was a Pokemon. The Pokemon Company might be strict about how their characters are depicted, but they also know the importance of promoting their stuff and the power they have within Nintendo. Comparing an original moveset to a stage, item etc or to a clone/design revision fails to take just how much resources making a character from scratch requires.
 

TheSpitefulWolf

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a year aint time to be adding ****, a year is time for qa and pre-gold release **** to be done so the entire system doesn't melt on game start

we don't need ****ing sony day-zero patches on this please
 

LancerStaff

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Except it's likely Smash has been in development since before ARMS was.
...So? It’s not like adding Spring Man would be some massive shift to the game, he’s just another character. Unless Sakurai didn’t watch the Switch reveal for some reason he would of been at least aware of the IP a long time ago. If he wanted to play the game and/or see the reception before including him he’s had time to do so.
 

Starlight_Lily

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That’s the thing. They’re just minor eshop games. Dillion’s the only one who could conceivably be a character anyway, and he’s not exactly lighting the world on fire.

They’re not going to make a Smash game and add just one or two big ticket characters.
Technically Olimar was a minor character for the gamecube. Also Dillion and Pushmo were popular enough to get multiple sequels, so they do actually stand a chance of getting into the next game.
 

Starlight_Lily

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“Technically,” meaning you acknowledge there’s a key difference.
No, I don't, I said technically because Olimar was a minor character during the Gamecube era, now he's not.

And Dillion and Pushmo sre successful Wii U/3DS era series, like how Pikmin was a successful Gamecube/GBA era series, so they have a chance of getting playable characters in Smash.
 
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LancerStaff

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Pikmin was always supposed to be a big deal. Now it didn’t quite end up that way but even then it’s a good deal bigger than the eshop characters.
 

True Blue Warrior

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As for Characters, Sakurai still would likely have had insight on upcoming projects and prepared for it, in Brawl, he even had a Fire Emblem placeholder to prepare for a Fire Emblem character who turned into Ike because he was to be the main character in the upcoming Fire Emblem game.
It's important to note in the case of Ike that the roster was finalised somewhere around 2005 with one obvious exception and Ike himself is heavily derived from Path of Radiance which was released around the same time, meaning he had extremely good timing similar to the Awakening characters (Sakurai himself stated that had Awakening been released several months earlier or later, Robin might not have made it in).


Is it hard to believe he would have had a Xenoblade placeholder, pre knowledge of ARMS and the usual discussions with the Game Freak.
No, but it's also not hard to believe that he might not have had a Xenoblade placeholder. You have to keep in mind that historically, Xenoblade has not had a newcomer for every single game and situation it had a chance to, seeing as Elma wasn't a DLC newcomer for Smash 4 despite good timing, meaning it is not guaranteed that the idea of a Xenoblade 2 character would necessarily be high enough priority for there to be a placeholder, at least whenever the roster was finalised.

As for ARMS, well it's also important to compare to the situation with Splatoon in 2015, since that is the situation most similar to ARMS. People speculated that the Inklings could have been DLC characters made before their game was released seeing as how heavily promoted the franchise. But ultimately it did not happen before the release of their game (or at all). It's possible that whatever factor made Sakurai hesitant on using the Inklings as promotional characters for an upcoming new franchise at the time could lead him to be against adding in an ARMS character back when the Smash Switch roster was finalised. This is just something to consider.
 

Quillion

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I think not havings Inklings as DLC in Smash 4 was more because his idea for their moveset was too complicated to develop for the limited time they had (plus, they had the 3DS's limitations to consider). The same deal happened with an Animal Crossing character in Brawl before Smash 4.
 

PSIGuy

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An interview with ARMS' director.
On the potential for an ARMS character in Smash Bros.
“I think the correct reaction is to say ‘I can’t answer that!’. Another thing I’d say is that Arms is so young — it’s only a year old — that maybe it’s too early to think about that. But I think it’s absolutely fantastic that there are people out there talking about Arms characters in that way.”
Thought this would be an interesting quote to throw into the debate. Might be PR speak, but even the director notes that ARMS is pretty new to be included in Smash Bros.
 

Smashoperatingbuddy123

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An interview with ARMS' director.

Thought this would be an interesting quote to throw into the debate. Might be PR speak, but even the director notes that ARMS is pretty new to be included in Smash Bros.
Good argument

Corrin got in and didn't even exist yet in fire emblem

Basicly this character was added before his game even came out smash bros was his first ever appearance in the world
 

RhymesWithEmpty

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I've felt like ARMS' chances at getting a character have been pretty highly overestimated around here for precisely these reasons. And there'll always be the argument that Sakurai would have known about ARMS during its development, but the real question is, would Sakurai be willing to plan a new playable character around a brand new game that may still have been early in development at the time? It's definitely a gamble, and I would at least like to think that Sakurai feels the need to wait for a series to prove itself before just giving it a character in Smash. He knows the characters are the big draw for this game, and if ARMS had been a flop, that inclusion would have been met with a lot of derision. It's very easy to say it's a good choice now that the game has been fairly well received, but hindsight is 20/20. It's also possible that Nintendo was already planning on pushing ARMS hard and was pressuring Sakurai to include it, but that is purely speculative and unknowable at this time. If anything, I think an ARMS rep stands a decent chance as DLC, but I really think they're a bit too new to get in on the base roster.

Xenoblade Chronicles 2 is in a slightly different situation, considering their franchise has not only already been established, but got a playable character in the last Smash. They're still pretty iffy for me, but I would be a bit less surprised by it than I would be by ARMS.
 
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