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Why A Tier List Is Not For Brawl!!
- Thread starter Remian
- Start date
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Umby
Smash Master
[12:34] <Hyarion> I just heard about tiers yesterday, makes sense to me I guess.
[12:34] <Teh|Umby> lol what?
[12:34] <Hyarion> a tier list in general that is, not which characters were classified as what.
[12:35] <Teh|Umby> I see.
[12:35] <Teh|Umby> Have you played Melee?
[12:35] <Hyarion> yep
[12:35] <Hyarion> and the original
[12:35] <Teh|Umby> Who did you main in Melee?
[12:36] <Hyarion> just never read about it much online.
[12:36] <Hyarion> usually Roy
[12:36] <Teh|Umby> And in 64?
[12:36] <Hyarion> that one changed a lot, started out as Kirby, and then Ness
[12:38] <Teh|Umby> And how unaware were you as to any superiority that might exist between Roy and other characters?
[12:38] <Hyarion> no clue
[12:39] <Hyarion> I assumed he was always going to be better than someone like jigglypuff though
[12:40] <Hyarion> coincidentally I don't like like Ike/Marth as much in Brawl, although I've barely played as them, Meta Knight has been my primary so far.
[12:45] <Teh|Umby> Can I ask you one more question, Hyarion?
[12:46] <Teh|Umby> How old are you?
[12:46] <Hyarion> 22
Now then, since I'm aware of KevinM's presence in this thread, this thread is now about Bowser.
[12:34] <Teh|Umby> lol what?
[12:34] <Hyarion> a tier list in general that is, not which characters were classified as what.
[12:35] <Teh|Umby> I see.
[12:35] <Teh|Umby> Have you played Melee?
[12:35] <Hyarion> yep
[12:35] <Hyarion> and the original
[12:35] <Teh|Umby> Who did you main in Melee?
[12:36] <Hyarion> just never read about it much online.
[12:36] <Hyarion> usually Roy
[12:36] <Teh|Umby> And in 64?
[12:36] <Hyarion> that one changed a lot, started out as Kirby, and then Ness
[12:38] <Teh|Umby> And how unaware were you as to any superiority that might exist between Roy and other characters?
[12:38] <Hyarion> no clue
[12:39] <Hyarion> I assumed he was always going to be better than someone like jigglypuff though
[12:40] <Hyarion> coincidentally I don't like like Ike/Marth as much in Brawl, although I've barely played as them, Meta Knight has been my primary so far.
[12:45] <Teh|Umby> Can I ask you one more question, Hyarion?
[12:46] <Teh|Umby> How old are you?
[12:46] <Hyarion> 22
Now then, since I'm aware of KevinM's presence in this thread, this thread is now about Bowser.
Umby
Smash Master
Saying that Bowser doesn't have large genitals is ignorant as well.
Killer Tree
Smash Journeyman
It's not constantly patching for balance. It's balanced now. And patching doesn't matter. What if Blizz released Starcraft like it was now? That would be a perfectly balanced game with no tiers at release.
pyro363
Smash Journeyman
First of the game just came out not to long ago and if you understand anything you will understand that a tier list takes at least a year maybe even two. It took melee a couple of years to create its tier list. If you think about it though a tier means nothing abotu who to use cause u can use anyone and make them top tier.
Link for top tier though.
Link for top tier though.
MaximoSmasher
Smash Apprentice
Oh I'm quite sure I won't stop you, and you'll continue to spawn elitism, and distance people between casual playing and tournament players ( which it looked like Sakurai was against in the first place ) ....I just wanted to show support for no tier list
adumbrodeus
Smash Legend
That's akin to trying to show support for the wind to stop blowing...Oh I'm quite sure I won't stop you, and you'll continue to spawn elitism, and distance people between casual playing and tournament players ( which it looked like Sakurai was against in the first place ) ....I just wanted to show support for no tier list
oh, and fix your quoting, the "stop flaming" bit was in response to a particular set of statements, and your quoting makes it appear to be part of that block statement which my post makes obvious that the opposite is true.
Zelda_Fan_
Smash Journeyman
Lol, noob.
I'm cool with tiers. Don't like 'em, but there's always gonna be a CaptainJack/Gimpy/fastliketree/Aniki to break the trend.
And with brawl I'm hoping there's at least a little more variation in which characters you see in competitive play.
And with brawl I'm hoping there's at least a little more variation in which characters you see in competitive play.
Foxy_Marth
Smash Apprentice
I read your edit... How does that prove your point more? Its just a fact thaat some characters are better than others
Uncle Fitzy
Smash Journeyman
They obviously tried there best to eliminate the chance of one character being better than another but there is no way to completely balance everything and eventually people will realize that some characters are more efficient in the engine than others... but at least in Brawl's case they made this a lot more vague.
... All this over a freaking list? The character is only half the story, guys. The person holding the controller is the other. The lists DO matter in high-level play, definitely, but individual takes on the characters matter just as much.
Play a lot, make a list, gloss over it, keep playing. The gradations between characters are likely to be pretty small anyways.
Play a lot, make a list, gloss over it, keep playing. The gradations between characters are likely to be pretty small anyways.
Keitaro
Banned via Administration
Yes
Isn't there a tier list for just about every single popular fighting game ever made? Hmmm....
E P I C
Smash Journeyman
epic random conversations in here, NO WAY.
VVayfarer
Smash Journeyman
... because all fighting games (?) are diverse. If all the movesets are the same, then there are no tier lists, either.Yes
Isn't there a tier list for just about every single popular fighting game ever made? Hmmm....
Enshoku
Smash Lord
has anyone here read any of serlin's article's on playing to win? I believe that they would describe maximo as a scrub, and a vocal one at that.
*digs up link to "importance of tiers" article*
*digs up link to "importance of tiers" article*
DroxSorcerer
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Sep 10, 2006
- Messages
- 32
Am I the only one the thinks that the system of determining tiers is a little . . . flawed?
kin3tic-c4jun-3
Smash Ace
There are tiers in Starcraft, balanced as it is.
EX: Zerg evolution to it's highest tier structure gives you the highest tier units; Ultralisk > Zergling.
^^^^^^^^^TIERS^^^^^^^^^
Perhaps a different type, but tiers none the less.
Consider audience? I'm sorry, but you can't really do that. Let's say that technically Bowser can pwn Ike on the tiers. If it's technically true, there shouldn't be any entity that can effect that; it's been programmed into the game.
Your simple solution is to not come onto the competative boards, and to not go to competative tournaments.
And to Maximum, your argument is that you don't want to fight a billion Ike's whenever you play someone? That people will just do whatever Smashboards dictates? I have some things to say; hate me as you will:
Make friends: Playing Brawl with friends you know and trust makes things alot of fun.
Play for fun: Don't follow the tiers if you aren't comfortable with it. When you aren't playing competatively (with friends), no one really cares WHAT character you're choosing.
When playing online: NOTHING matters. Stats aren't tracked and your name isn't shown. So you got pwned over and over by an Ike... Go play with your friends!
Don't go to tourneys: And I'd say that tourneys are pretty much the only place where people REALLY consider tiers.
I just don't get it. All of my friends who play Smash are QUITE aware of the tiers, but you know, we always switch it up when we play. We get some Bowser, some Roy, sure a Marth here, a Fox there, Mario, whoever. We don't care, we're not at a tourney, we just want to have some fun. That's how you play Smash, I don't know how making a tier list for competative tourneys contemplates your ability to play the game.
If you want to be competative, go to a tourney. If you don't, play with your friends. It's really that simple. The only problem that could possibly exist in this argument is that you don't have friends. It's like with anything. If you play soccer with friends, do people REALLY care about what the score is? Are there THOUSANDS of people watching? Is it all over the TV, papers, and internet? No, it's not competative. There are players who are much better than others, and they play to win. Does that effect people who play soccer for fun? No... why are people making this an issue here?
And there are people who take their Roy to tournaments, becasue they like how manly Roy is over Marth. Are you not confident/proud enough of yourself and character to just use whoever YOU want? Why are you letting an internet forum ruin things for you? Why is anyone?
I feel many don't have the right mindset. It looks like this is just people getting mad at tiers, instead of blaming their inability to be good at the game.
Maybe it is xelados. Maybe there are alot of people who's lives are pretty ****ty right now, and the only small place for their escape is a video-game. Maybe winning, in that stupid game, is the only place they ever win. Alot of people win to win, not embarass. You are being arrogant.
People forget that the purpose of smashboards mostly for the competative community.
-sonny-
Smash Journeyman
Fighting games have tiers.
Also, your theory makes no sense. There should be no tier list in Brawl because it is easy to recover?? Then obviously it will be based on other things. While we're at it, lets just get rid of any tier lists for Street Fighter games, Guilty Gear, etc. because you can't recover.
Also, your theory makes no sense. There should be no tier list in Brawl because it is easy to recover?? Then obviously it will be based on other things. While we're at it, lets just get rid of any tier lists for Street Fighter games, Guilty Gear, etc. because you can't recover.
VVayfarer
Smash Journeyman
... which has already been stated numerous times.
Huh? Did i miss something? I didn't see anyone talking about recovering.Also, your theory makes no sense. There should be no tier list in Brawl because it is easy to recover?? Then obviously it will be based on other things. While we're at it, lets just get rid of any tier lists for Street Fighter games, Guilty Gear, etc. because you can't recover.
Enshoku
Smash Lord
he's referring to the original poster.
Mama
Smash Ace
This is ********. There are too many of these idiots running around making threads. They just don't seem to understand that no matter what, fighting games have tiers. Thats how it is and thats how it has t be. The ignorant people like this seem to think that tiers are determined by the popularity of the characters or something. Like low tier characters are only low tier because nobody likes to use them. But whatever I'll make my response to the original post and be done.
The tier list was based on a characters capability and versatility. Not which characters can do whatever the best. Characters that could win and/or perform best in the most diverse situations were the characters that made it up to the top tier. These characters were determined by outcomes at tournaments and players learning how to use the character to its fullest potential. Before, Falco wasn't a high tier character. Then more people saw his potential to combo and kill a lot of characters. He wasn't only good against a few and no matter what you think it didn't have anything to do with how well he could keep a character from recovering.
I do agree that Brawl seems to be more diversified. But that doesn't mean that its perfectly balanced. Keeping a character from recovering is something people do to win. Why let your opponent recover? Do you think its honorable? That its cheap if you prevent them from living? You probably wouldn't if you knew you were going to get paid for it. Playing to win is something you have to understand. Recovery mechanics in Brawl are simply different. If you get tossed off the edge by Metaknight then he can jump off the edge with his multiple jumps and attack you to make sure you don't make it back. Edge guarding simply takes on a new form. You seem to be thinking of Brawl as Melee with a few changed features when its a different game.
You can only do so much with a character. In Melee Ganondorf wasn't high tier but he was a capable character against certain character types. In Brawl it'll likely be the same thing. Ganondorf will have an advantage or be pretty good against certain characters with his powerful moves. But because he wont be great against all or most characters he wont see the top tier. On the other hand characters like Fox, Marth, Toon Link, Diddy etc are fairly well off in most situations. Its far far far too early to tell who will be where in the tier list because nobody has taken anyone to their potential. But you need to understand how tiers work before you say they shouldn't exist.
The tier list was based on a characters capability and versatility. Not which characters can do whatever the best. Characters that could win and/or perform best in the most diverse situations were the characters that made it up to the top tier. These characters were determined by outcomes at tournaments and players learning how to use the character to its fullest potential. Before, Falco wasn't a high tier character. Then more people saw his potential to combo and kill a lot of characters. He wasn't only good against a few and no matter what you think it didn't have anything to do with how well he could keep a character from recovering.
I do agree that Brawl seems to be more diversified. But that doesn't mean that its perfectly balanced. Keeping a character from recovering is something people do to win. Why let your opponent recover? Do you think its honorable? That its cheap if you prevent them from living? You probably wouldn't if you knew you were going to get paid for it. Playing to win is something you have to understand. Recovery mechanics in Brawl are simply different. If you get tossed off the edge by Metaknight then he can jump off the edge with his multiple jumps and attack you to make sure you don't make it back. Edge guarding simply takes on a new form. You seem to be thinking of Brawl as Melee with a few changed features when its a different game.
You can only do so much with a character. In Melee Ganondorf wasn't high tier but he was a capable character against certain character types. In Brawl it'll likely be the same thing. Ganondorf will have an advantage or be pretty good against certain characters with his powerful moves. But because he wont be great against all or most characters he wont see the top tier. On the other hand characters like Fox, Marth, Toon Link, Diddy etc are fairly well off in most situations. Its far far far too early to tell who will be where in the tier list because nobody has taken anyone to their potential. But you need to understand how tiers work before you say they shouldn't exist.
Umby
Smash Master
A lost my Serlin's link. Mind feeding it to me?
Umby
Smash Master
I mean, ****. I just had the page book marked. I really didn't memorize the name of the site. =/ Thanks though.
Enshoku
Smash Lord
from "introducing the scrub" article... the two quotes are similar, ne?serlin said:
Mario & Sonic Guy
Old rivalries live on!
I doubt that there will be a best fighter, but it's possible to find the worst fighter.
Mama
Smash Ace
Lol yea I read that six or so months back. Its true no matter how you look at it. I used to regard Edge guarding as cheap when I was a scrub but when I started playing better and learning the competitive tactics I ditched my old views and started playing to win.
MaximoSmasher
Smash Apprentice
I don't hate you for the advice, I hate you for being an assuming douchebag.
Uh....Girlfriend, Roomate, Cousin, and about 10 friends who ALL PLAY BRAWL. I'm covered thanks.
Uh...I don't care about the tier list itself. I care about going to a con, sitting down to play VS some people, and EACH TIME I fight the same 3 characters. I won't complain to them, but I'll roll my eyes when I fight Lucas VS. 3 Falcos.
Oh I know, and so far I'm like 18/20 wins with Lucas, but I am kind of tired of people picking final destination, not because its boring per say, but I enjoy the excitement and music of other levels.
When I go to a tourny I fully expect tierism, and final destination, and the same 3 characters over and over...That's fine its a tournament and people play to win. I'm 100% okay with that....but when it spills over online, and in my casual play it limits the chances I have to play all characters in an epic human to human battle.
Sure, I know we do that too. But we really roll our eyes when we go to a casual gig and people are playing like its a tournament. I saw this dude getting his *** BEAT as marth, at a casual thing, and he was throwing his controller and grunting and ****. He also wasn't giving anyone a turn so I had to tell him to get out of line....Those are the kind of people that don't need tierlists, because they take it way too seriously.
I got that part, I already did that with Melee....Just soooooooo tired of fighting Fox, Falco, and Marth over and over and over at CASUAL battles. It's annoying.
See? Assuming douchebag. I played Ness in tournaments for fun. And I have STILL no idea where he is on the tier list. I just don't care. And its not ruining anything. I just don't think people should bother making a tierlist, especcially because of how inaccurate it will be for a LONG TIME, and the fact that tierlists are comming out when the game was just released is proof of how people take somthing so seriously.
Wrong. I can school alot of players who play marth/falco with ness....I'm still ****ing bored of fighting Falco and Marth in non tournament settings.
Sorry, I didn't realize this was for the ELITE. I thought it was purely for people who enjoyed smash bros. my mistake.
PS.
Oh and since, most of you suck at reading.
I realize all characters are not 100% balanced, just realize its VERY difficult, especcially this early on to determine who has the advantages.
I don't consider myself a casual or a tourny guy....I'll play ethier honestly, but people suck at seperating the two. I guess thats my real problem.
Just because I posted on smashboards does not mean I do not have friends
No I am not a scrub, I don't complain to people when they pick marth at casual battles, I just don't want to see Brawl turn out anything like Melee did. And people seem hellbent on turning it into how melee was.
And thats what actually gets me to post. And even when I post I know it's futile to try to sway anyone...still it's my opinion.
My name is Maximo, it's not a nickname or a name I made up. Just Maximo. Check the sig.
Stop trolling.
hmm.
people think there shouldnt be a tier list for brawl.
but people say brawl is competitive.
OBJECTION!!! XD
people think there shouldnt be a tier list for brawl.
but people say brawl is competitive.
OBJECTION!!! XD
MaximoSmasher
Smash Apprentice
Anything is competitive, you don't actually have to make a tierlist for it. :\
Trolling is just posting in trying to get someones goat, without adding to discussion. I'm actually discussing, please know what a troll is before you call some one that.
Just to clear it up here's an example of trolling:
Hey Yuna, you should stop drawing, I saw your deviantart account and you're horrible at it, AHAHAHAHAH XD!!!
<-see?
You're using the same old stale arguments (which have already been refuted many times over in this very thread) over and over again, ignoring everyone else. It's trolling, just more eloborately.
E-Jolteon
Smash Ace
I'd trust their relivance, it's the fact that Brawl is balanced enough where it shouldn't matter that makes me laugh. Character should be choice.
Lets play Sonic3K multiplayer
What RU doing picking Sonic U n00b? Hes low tier.
I'm picing knux cause Tails is b%.
ThePurpleCobra
Smash Apprentice
my opinion
i never felt like the tier list was useful at all. i dont know if any of you have seen phannas matchup chart http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=92025 but i think that was the best way to learn who is good against who is melee and it think that would be the best way to do it in brawl too
i never felt like the tier list was useful at all. i dont know if any of you have seen phannas matchup chart http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=92025 but i think that was the best way to learn who is good against who is melee and it think that would be the best way to do it in brawl too
ThePurpleCobra
Smash Apprentice
my opinion
i never felt like the tier list was useful at all. i dont know if any of you have seen phannas matchup chart http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=92025 but i think that was the best way to learn who is good against who is melee and it think that would be the best way to do it in brawl too
i never felt like the tier list was useful at all. i dont know if any of you have seen phannas matchup chart http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=92025 but i think that was the best way to learn who is good against who is melee and it think that would be the best way to do it in brawl too
Umby
Smash Master
Phanna's matchup chart was somewhat flawed last time I checked. I even think he said it was flawed. I mean, Link ranked a 3 vs Samus, and that's completely wrong.
edit: also note how the matchup chart still pretty much favors how the tier list in Melee is structured.
edit: also note how the matchup chart still pretty much favors how the tier list in Melee is structured.
ThePurpleCobra
Smash Apprentice
i realize that but a tier list cant explain how pikachu had a massive advantage over jiggypuff in melee. a matchup chart could
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