• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

Who does Cloud lose to?

Captain Phobos

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Apr 4, 2017
Messages
134
Location
Minnesota, United States
Cloud is overpowered. Since I'm a matchup scrub, I'm not sure who he generally loses to. I've started to play Cloud more recently, and I gotta know which characters I should watch out for.
 

d3adlykansas

Smash Rookie
Joined
May 2, 2017
Messages
7
Location
indiana
Cloud is overpowered. Since I'm a matchup scrub, I'm not sure who he generally loses to. I've started to play Cloud more recently, and I gotta know which characters I should watch out for.
ok so cloud is not over power at all. he's very strong yes. but not over power. he has his weaknesses. you can easily destroy him off stage. his recovery is bad without limit and he can easily be destroyed at that state.
 

clarify

Smash Cadet
Joined
May 13, 2012
Messages
48
Location
Orlando, FL
Both Bayonetta and Sheik combo Cloud easily, though neither matchup is too much in their favor. I would assume Diddy also has a slight advantage, though the two I've heard often are Sheik and Bayo.
 

WolfmanDeerek

Smash Cadet
Joined
Mar 2, 2016
Messages
63
Bowser lives long, hits hard, and grabs all day long. When you hit limit you get heavier, so his up throw to up air stays true even at high %. I think eventually he will be a natural counter pick to Cloud.
 

d3adlykansas

Smash Rookie
Joined
May 2, 2017
Messages
7
Location
indiana
Bowser lives long, hits hard, and grabs all day long. When you hit limit you get heavier, so his up throw to up air stays true even at high %. I think eventually he will be a natural counter pick to Cloud.
im a bowser main and well I'm gonna say don't do that mu. bowser gets bodied to easily against smart cloud players. the sword will negate any atempt of u getting in on him for a grab. i would say mario is a pretty good choice. that mu is 5-5 mario cloud
 

Matt11111

Semi-Casual Modest Scrub
Joined
May 15, 2016
Messages
292
Location
NYC
NNID
Mat11111
im a bowser main and well I'm gonna say don't do that mu. bowser gets bodied to easily against smart cloud players. the sword will negate any atempt of u getting in on him for a grab. i would say mario is a pretty good choice. that mu is 5-5 mario cloud
It isn't really, though. Mario tends to have a really big problem with swords, due to his small size and consequent lack of range. Since Cloud has one of the longest ranges in the game with his sword, as well as good mobility, frame data, and kill options to boot, and his long range also gives him a better neutral against Mario.

Bayonetta, on the other hand, doesn't have much trouble dealing with Cloud if you play her right. Her edgeguarding is one fo the best in the game, which can be a nightmare for Cloud because of his subpar and linear recovery. Cloud is also easier to Witch Time due to his big, long-lasting hitboxes.
 

DJBor

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jun 24, 2016
Messages
338
Location
Rutgers, NJ
There's four things that give Cloud the edge in matchups... neutral air, up air, down air, and LBCS. If a character has the tools to deal with those four moves, and can effectively move Cloud offstage without his limit, that character has a positive matchup. The two biggest names that come to mind are Bayonetta and Sheik, but Bowser and DK are on the rise, as well as Pikachu with the insane edgeguarding. (Personally, I think Shulk is a good counter if played with spacing as the priority, since his sword outranges Cloud, but most say the matchup is even or Cloud's favor.)
 

MERPIS

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 28, 2015
Messages
1,700
Location
Prince Edward Island
NNID
Catboog
There's four things that give Cloud the edge in matchups... neutral air, up air, down air, and LBCS. If a character has the tools to deal with those four moves, and can effectively move Cloud offstage without his limit, that character has a positive matchup. The two biggest names that come to mind are Bayonetta and Sheik, but Bowser and DK are on the rise, as well as Pikachu with the insane edgeguarding. (Personally, I think Shulk is a good counter if played with spacing as the priority, since his sword outranges Cloud, but most say the matchup is even or Cloud's favor.)
none of those are even close for being a sizable disadvantage for cloud, pikachu will probably become his worst matchup.
 

Eekum_bokum

Smash Cadet
Joined
Nov 13, 2017
Messages
29
Location
Long Island, NY
Just wanted to leave it out there that even though you may not think he's that great, Pika is one of the only characters in the game (if not the only one) that wins both the Cloud AND Bayo MU. Pretty impressive.
 

A Scrub

BonghornLeghorn
Joined
Mar 28, 2017
Messages
159
Location
Western Canada
NNID
BonghornLeghorn
Cloud's neutral tools are amazing, and if you can utilize them well, then your opponent is going to have a bad time. The worst mu in my opinion is even.

However once you're off stage, things start getting rough. Any character that can harass you on stage with no risk, or has good off stage pressure with a good recovery can be scary.

Diddy, Ness, Luigi, Pikachu, Greninja, Pits, Lucas, Duck Hunt, and Dr/Regular Mario.

These guys can make coming back very difficult if your opponent is good at edge guarding.
 

Ty Gillis

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jun 16, 2017
Messages
15
Any character that can extend off stage and reliably make it back is typically the best way to take off a quick stock
 

Caryslan

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Nov 13, 2010
Messages
169
Take this with a grain of salt, and keep in mind I mostly play online but I almost always play Ike as a Cloud counter.

While Cloud does still outrange Ike to a small degree, it's not an overwhelming advantage for Cloud given Rangell is a pretty damn big sword that has tons of range itself. Ike can also control the match to a degree due to his jab, and it seems like Cloud has a much harder time breaking through Ike's attacks.

Ike is also heavier then Cloud, and his endurance is insane. I have had Cloud players throw F-Smashes, Limit Break Cross Slashes and Beam Swords, and pretty much everything at me, and Ike has been able to come back and in some cases, I have been close to 200%.

Which means the match turns into a battle of endurance, and Ike wins because he's heavier, has one of the best horizontal recoveries in the game with Quick Draw which means Cloud has to pretty much KO Ike to the point that he can't use Quick Draw to get back or risk intercepting Ike's recovery, which is very risky given Cloud has a bad recovery without Limit Break.

Ike can also bring Cloud down with him with Aether.

Ike's greatest weapon against Cloud is his sheer power. Cloud is a powerful character, but Ike is stronger and has a wide array of options to knock out Cloud with. Like I said before, this can become a battle of endurance, and Ike is Cloud's superior in this regard.

Ike can survive pretty much all of Cloud's best hits and unless he's KOed outright or put in a position that he can't recover, Ike will keep coming back.

Ike has an insane number of combos he can pull off against Cloud, some of which can juggle Cloud.

Ike's specials are also all useful in this match. Counter when used properly can be used to either buy Ike breathing room or punish a bad choice by Cloud, Quick Draw is useful as a quick punish tool and can let Ike move across the stage or in the air to avoid follow-ups or escape, Aether can be useful, and even Eruption can punish Cloud if he misjudges an attack.

With all of this said, I still call the matchup even for the most part. I have played Cloud players who played around Ike's weaknesses and some of my matches have come down to the wire.

But I also think Ike is not dominated by Cloud, and if played well can even gain an advantage against Cloud. To put it another way, I pull Ike out when I play a Cloud and for the most part, I have gotten very good results.

Now, if anyone cares to add something to this or even correct me, I welcome their opinion.
 
Last edited:

MERPIS

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 28, 2015
Messages
1,700
Location
Prince Edward Island
NNID
Catboog
Take this with a grain of salt, and keep in mind I mostly play online but I almost always play Ike as a Cloud counter.

While Cloud does still outrange Ike to a small degree, it's not an overwhelming advantage for Cloud given Rangell is a pretty damn big sword that has tons of range itself. Ike can also control the match to a degree due to his jab, and it seems like Cloud has a much harder time breaking through Ike's attacks.

Ike is also heavier then Cloud, and his endurance is insane. I have had Cloud players throw F-Smashes, Limit Break Cross Slashes and Beam Swords, and pretty much everything at me, and Ike has been able to come back and in some cases, I have been close to 200%.

Which means the match turns into a battle of endurance, and Ike wins because he's heavier, has one of the best horizontal recoveries in the game with Quick Draw which means Cloud has to pretty much KO Ike to the point that he can't use Quick Draw to get back or risk intercepting Ike's recovery, which is very risky given Cloud has a bad recovery without Limit Break.

Ike can also bring Cloud down with him with Aether.

Ike's greatest weapon against Cloud is his sheer power. Cloud is a powerful character, but Ike is stronger and has a wide array of options to knock out Cloud with. Like I said before, this can become a battle of endurance, and Ike is Cloud's superior in this regard.

Ike can survive pretty much all of Cloud's best hits and unless he's KOed outright or put in a position that he can't recover, Ike will keep coming back.

Ike has an insane number of combos he can pull off against Cloud, some of which can juggle Cloud.

Ike's specials are also all useful in this match. Counter when used properly can be used to either buy Ike breathing room or punish a bad choice by Cloud, Quick Draw is useful as a quick punish tool and can let Ike move across the stage or in the air to avoid follow-ups or escape, Aether can be useful, and even Eruption can punish Cloud if he misjudges an attack.

With all of this said, I still call the matchup even for the most part. I have played Cloud players who played around Ike's weaknesses and some of my matches have come down to the wire.

But I also think Ike is not dominated by Cloud, and if played well can even gain an advantage against Cloud. To put it another way, I pull Ike out when I play a Cloud and for the most part, I have gotten very good results.

Now, if anyone cares to add something to this or even correct me, I welcome their opinion.
You enjoy getting comboed, juggled and gimped to death?
 

Caryslan

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Nov 13, 2010
Messages
169
You enjoy getting comboed, juggled and gimped to death?
What are you talking about? I've played numerous Cloud players as Ike, and I've really been combined or gimped by them.

Now, could top level Cloud players do that to me? Yeah, I'm sure they could.

My point is that Ike from the matches I've played, tends to do well against Cloud.
 

A Scrub

BonghornLeghorn
Joined
Mar 28, 2017
Messages
159
Location
Western Canada
NNID
BonghornLeghorn
Take this with a grain of salt, and keep in mind I mostly play online but I almost always play Ike as a Cloud counter.

While Cloud does still outrange Ike to a small degree, it's not an overwhelming advantage for Cloud given Rangell is a pretty damn big sword that has tons of range itself. Ike can also control the match to a degree due to his jab, and it seems like Cloud has a much harder time breaking through Ike's attacks.

Ike is also heavier then Cloud, and his endurance is insane. I have had Cloud players throw F-Smashes, Limit Break Cross Slashes and Beam Swords, and pretty much everything at me, and Ike has been able to come back and in some cases, I have been close to 200%.

Which means the match turns into a battle of endurance, and Ike wins because he's heavier, has one of the best horizontal recoveries in the game with Quick Draw which means Cloud has to pretty much KO Ike to the point that he can't use Quick Draw to get back or risk intercepting Ike's recovery, which is very risky given Cloud has a bad recovery without Limit Break.

Ike can also bring Cloud down with him with Aether.

Ike's greatest weapon against Cloud is his sheer power. Cloud is a powerful character, but Ike is stronger and has a wide array of options to knock out Cloud with. Like I said before, this can become a battle of endurance, and Ike is Cloud's superior in this regard.

Ike can survive pretty much all of Cloud's best hits and unless he's KOed outright or put in a position that he can't recover, Ike will keep coming back.

Ike has an insane number of combos he can pull off against Cloud, some of which can juggle Cloud.

Ike's specials are also all useful in this match. Counter when used properly can be used to either buy Ike breathing room or punish a bad choice by Cloud, Quick Draw is useful as a quick punish tool and can let Ike move across the stage or in the air to avoid follow-ups or escape, Aether can be useful, and even Eruption can punish Cloud if he misjudges an attack.

With all of this said, I still call the matchup even for the most part. I have played Cloud players who played around Ike's weaknesses and some of my matches have come down to the wire.

But I also think Ike is not dominated by Cloud, and if played well can even gain an advantage against Cloud. To put it another way, I pull Ike out when I play a Cloud and for the most part, I have gotten very good results.

Now, if anyone cares to add something to this or even correct me, I welcome their opinion.
I was an Ike main before Cloud came out, and I switched over. I have lots of experience with both characters.

Cloud destroys Ike in the neutral. Blade beam is such a big hassle for Ike, with both Quick Draw and Aether being screwed up by it. When an Ike has to commit to Aether, Cloud just has to blade beam him and there's nothing Ike can do. He can't snap to ledge and it reaches underneath. Ike literally has to eat every one of them till Cloud either mis-times it or lets Ike fall to his death because Aether won't have enough horizontal distance anymore.
 
Last edited:

MERPIS

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 28, 2015
Messages
1,700
Location
Prince Edward Island
NNID
Catboog
What are you talking about? I've played numerous Cloud players as Ike, and I've really been combined or gimped by them.

Now, could top level Cloud players do that to me? Yeah, I'm sure they could.

My point is that Ike from the matches I've played, tends to do well against Cloud.
He still gets comboed for an insane amount of damage, he has no good combo breakers and his weight lets cloud eat him alive in the air and while being comboed, and most of his tools are broken outright by uair
 
Last edited:

origamiscienceguy

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jul 30, 2017
Messages
155
Jigglypuff... is probably the worst choice.

Cloud gets a free kill if he so much as grabs her about 105%
 

Filler Dmon

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jan 11, 2015
Messages
36
Location
Canton, Georgia
I'd like to think that a high level character who isn't immediately top 3 but still gives Cloud trouble is Mario. He, and Greninja, can effortless edgeguard him once he's off stage (or at least for him to burn Limit) with Water. Add in being good at combos and it seems there's a solid recipee for at least a neutral match-up. Lose the neutral, and find those limits washed away. Salem pulling out his Greninja to (hilariously) end M2K's Cloud in a tournament near the end of this year comes to mind.
 

MERPIS

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 28, 2015
Messages
1,700
Location
Prince Edward Island
NNID
Catboog
I'd like to think that a high level character who isn't immediately top 3 but still gives Cloud trouble is Mario. He, and Greninja, can effortless edgeguard him once he's off stage (or at least for him to burn Limit) with Water. Add in being good at combos and it seems there's a solid recipee for at least a neutral match-up. Lose the neutral, and find those limits washed away. Salem pulling out his Greninja to (hilariously) end M2K's Cloud in a tournament near the end of this year comes to mind.
I hate to bring the bad news bears upon you, but Cloud is easily one of both of their worse matchups, greninja is combo food for cloud and endlessly gets juggled, Mario is outranged, can't catch up to cloud at all and also gets juggled.
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
In the reddit Smash 4 Comprehensive match up, it says that Cloud loses to Pikachu, Bayonetta and Sheik.
I feel like everyone bases it too much on Cloud's recovery and we should focus on his moves having some flaws.
 

A Scrub

BonghornLeghorn
Joined
Mar 28, 2017
Messages
159
Location
Western Canada
NNID
BonghornLeghorn
Cloud does not lose to Sheik or Bayo. I haven't fought enough Pikas to be certain, but for sure Bayo and Sheik are at least 50 50. No problems.
 

Filler Dmon

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jan 11, 2015
Messages
36
Location
Canton, Georgia
I hate to bring the bad news bears upon you, but Cloud is easily one of both of their worse matchups, greninja is combo food for cloud and endlessly gets juggled, Mario is outranged, can't catch up to cloud at all and also gets juggled.
Huh.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-HRAxO3olBE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AkWJ-28cC90
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EK3X_Uo_vBQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-CdVGAbi7_8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkDcL9MPfAQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EUvK_4Rialg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xq-WcrTsMmY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QyBGrBF-uew

Define "worse", then. Mario v Cloud looks at -least- even, and while I'd accept Greninja not winning the match up, I don't think it's as bad for Greninja as against other characters, nor that Greninja has more trouble fighting Cloud than he would fighting, for example, Fox or Sonic.
 

MERPIS

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 28, 2015
Messages
1,700
Location
Prince Edward Island
NNID
Catboog
Huh.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-HRAxO3olBE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AkWJ-28cC90
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EK3X_Uo_vBQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-CdVGAbi7_8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkDcL9MPfAQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EUvK_4Rialg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xq-WcrTsMmY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QyBGrBF-uew

Define "worse", then. Mario v Cloud looks at -least- even, and while I'd accept Greninja not winning the match up, I don't think it's as bad for Greninja as against other characters, nor that Greninja has more trouble fighting Cloud than he would fighting, for example, Fox or Sonic.
Oh man how about that time Link won a set against Abadango's Mewtwo? Bad matchup for Mewtwo I'm sure of it. Or maybe that time Larry's fox was taken out by a Donkey Kong? -1 DK's favor no doubts there. Or possibly even the time both Mac and Roy took out Zack's bayonetta? Damn netta those are some bad matchups.
 
Last edited:

Filler Dmon

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jan 11, 2015
Messages
36
Location
Canton, Georgia
Oh man how about that time Link won a set against Abadango's Mewtwo? Bad matchup for Mewtwo I'm sure of it. Or maybe that time Larry's fox was taken out by a Donkey Kong? -1 DK's favor no doubts there. Or possibly even the time both Mac and Roy took out Zack's bayonetta? Damn netta those are some bad matchups.
Had I posted just one video of one random match, particularly just low level matches, I'd absolutely agree. But that's multiple different videos, particularly of high level players, consistently going at it, showing the results and the matches that back it up several times. It's not just a one-off thing, like Zero getting rekt by Palutena or Duck Hunt just because he didn't know the match up. That's multiple times hundreds of dollars got decided, which backs up my suggestion more than being passive aggressive: Mario is capable of getting in and comboing Cloud much better than other people would believe he can, and possesses several deadly ways of gimping Cloud's recovery to end him. Greninja doesn't have as much general success, but certainly has the tools to be able to do so at the high level competitive rank.
 

MercuryPenny

Smash Journeyman
Joined
May 17, 2017
Messages
278
NNID
MemorialDime
pick some more recent mario/cloud sets.

even in those sets you linked you can see how much ally relied on dash-in shields, how much his nairs out of shield got punished, and how well cloud can weave in and out of the range where he can threaten without mario being able to do anything. especially when he has limit.

cloud is almost everything mario hates; long ranged disjoints, safe, runs away really well, and benefits a lot from rage. if cloud recovers low and b-reverses climhazzard so the hitbox is facing out helps protect him from bair stage spikes AND eliminates fludd as an option, and while mario can still stage spike him, the timing is a lot more strict due to having to contend with a massive aerial disjoint. combined with cloud's surprisingly good air speed, high double jump, AND massive long lasting hitboxes, it's harder for mario to edgeguard cloud than you think even without limit. with limit it's not even worth trying.

ally's more an exception, too. bear in mind that every mario fears the sonic matchup (for good reason) but ally has a positive record versus basically every sonic alive.
 
Last edited:
Top Bottom