Who cover's Villy's weaknesses? (Help with secondaries)

AJL

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#1
AJL here, and I've been wondering which characters can cover Villager's weaknesses. I'm using Roy as my secondary right now, but overall he hasn't really been working out for me. I can use Bowser Jr. and Kirby a bit, but I'd like to know what you guys think.

I've heard of some Villagers using ROB or Duck Hunt as their secondary, but I'd like to know who else is good.

Thanks for the help!
 

Zajice

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#2
Any fast, good-up-close, can-deal-with-rushdown character. Sheik, fox, meta knight, pikachu, etc. Villager needs stage control, and if you're being denied that, a secondary that's better at handling people in your "bubble" is most preferable.

I wouldn't recommend something like duck hunt. He plays too similarly to villager and won't help cover your bases much. In general, secondaries should be pretty different in playstyle.
 

Keeseman

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#3
I play Sheik and Captain Falcon, and find those to both be pretty good options. Sheik dominates in general, because of both the distance and close up strengths with plenty of good OoS options, and Falcon is a good mixup to get in the opponent's face, rather than focusing on keeping distance; in fact, they are pretty much opposites in playstyle, which is great for changing things up.

Both of their grabs and throw combos are excellent, for example, where Villager's grab is quite poor.
 
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H@ym@ker

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#8
Thoughts on Little Mac as a secondary? Ive been trying him to cover my villager's weaknesses and ive had mixed results.

On one hand, His dash, Fox trot, perfect pivot, and footstool are amazing. His grabs are alot better, and dthrow combos into up B. His ground control and rush down is entirely different from villager's spacing and air dominance, throwing people way off guard. His tilts and smashes are waaaay safer. And his jab has more range and comes out on frame 1, fastest jab in the game.

Him and villager both excel at controlling the stage and trapping your opponent into getting sent flying, but this playstyle requires elbow room. If a character is giving your villager a bad matchup with getting in quick and comboing hard, it almost feels like it will be even worse switching to little mac, because he lacks the zoning tools villager has, lacks the good "get off me" aerials that villager has, and yet still needs the same elbow room to set up his stage control. Down B Counter helps a bit, but becomes predictable very quickly.

Just seems like he's a good flipside to Villager with a different playstyle to reach similat objectives, but it also seems like he just does worse against characters villager already struggles with like Ness's and shiek, but does better than villager against characters villager is already good against.

Am I missing something? Seems like there's potential here but it hasn't been consistent for me. Worth a try though
 
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Darklink401

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#9
Thoughts on Little Mac as a secondary? Ive been trying him to cover my villager's weaknesses and ive had mixed results.

On one hand, His dash, Fox trot, perfect pivot, and footstool are amazing. His grabs are alot better, and dthrow combos into up B. His ground control and rush down is entirely different from villager's spacing and air dominance, throwing people way off guard. His tilts and smashes are waaaay safer. And his jab has more range and comes out on frame 1, fastest jab in the game.

Him and villager both excel at controlling the stage and trapping your opponent into getting sent flying, but this playstyle requires elbow room. If a character is giving your villager a bad matchup with getting in quick and comboing hard, it almost feels like it will be even worse switching to little mac, because he lacks the zoning tools villager has, lacks the good "get off me" aerials that villager has, and yet still needs the same elbow room to set up his stage control. Down B Counter helps a bit, but becomes predictable very quickly.

Just seems like he's a good flipside to Villager with a different playstyle to reach similat objectives, but it also seems like he just does worse against characters villager already struggles with like Ness's and shiek, but does better than villager against characters villager is already good against.

Am I missing something? Seems like there's potential here but it hasn't been consistent for me. Worth a try though
Mac's grab is actually pretty bad. =P It's got super short range. (not as bad as Villy's tho xD)

Also, dthrow doesn't combo into up B, unless they DI in, however dtilt to up B does combo if you do Jump-cancel up B

Villager's dtilt and fsmash are actually really safe (as well as Upsmash, since it locks people into shield if done on a platform, and has not that much lag)

that being said

I think Mac is a nice secondary for Villy, since he covers the ground options Villy struggles with.

BTW, Villager doesn't struggle with Ness and Sheik, both MUs are 50-50, I'd say, maybe 55-45 with ness and 45-55 with Sheik. That being said, Mac can be useful for dealing with some characters that give Villy trouble, like Link, Megaman, etc.
 

H@ym@ker

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#10
Mac's grab is actually pretty bad. =P It's got super short range. (not as bad as Villy's tho xD)

Also, dthrow doesn't combo into up B, unless they DI in, however dtilt to up B does combo if you do Jump-cancel up B

Villager's dtilt and fsmash are actually really safe (as well as Upsmash, since it locks people into shield if done on a platform, and has not that much lag)

that being said

I think Mac is a nice secondary for Villy, since he covers the ground options Villy struggles with.

BTW, Villager doesn't struggle with Ness and Sheik, both MUs are 50-50, I'd say, maybe 55-45 with ness and 45-55 with Sheik. That being said, Mac can be useful for dealing with some characters that give Villy trouble, like Link, Megaman, etc.
My bad. I've been able to land dthrow to up B pretty consistently but I didn't know it wasn't a true combo. Macs grab range is awful, you're right, but that can be made up for with his lightning fast dash, and the grab itself comes out quick.

Maybe I just struggle with Ness and shiek in general :p

How are the matchups themselves? Overall, can villager's bad matchups be covered by little mac, and vise versa?
 

Darklink401

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#11
Villager's worst MUs, IMO, are Meta Knight, Megaman, Link, Toon Link...Pikachu?

TBH, I'd say Sheik is the best secondary for Villager, but Mac can probably work too? xD IDK how Mac does vs projectiles.
 

H@ym@ker

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#13
Thank god I'm not the only one who struggles in these matchups. I've had Villager's tell me these are not difficult for us, but I have so much trouble when going against a good Link or TL.
It's only difficult if you try to pocket every little thing. If you just power shield arrows and boomerangs, link will have a rough time trying to get close. Save your pocket only for the bombs, so you can set up combos. Lloyd-bomb-fair or something like that.

Little mac can dash under alot of projectiles, but not shieks needles or pikachu thunder jolts. I could see him doing well against megaman and the links, being pretty much even against shiek, and struggling an awful lot against pikachu
 

Darklink401

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#14
It's only difficult if you try to pocket every little thing. If you just power shield arrows and boomerangs, link will have a rough time trying to get close. Save your pocket only for the bombs, so you can set up combos. Lloyd-bomb-fair or something like that.

Little mac can dash under alot of projectiles, but not shieks needles or pikachu thunder jolts. I could see him doing well against megaman and the links, being pretty much even against shiek, and struggling an awful lot against pikachu
He doesn't have to get close =/

He out-projectiles us, and if we try to go up close, he wrecks us with his sword.
 

Mtn64

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#15
It's only difficult if you try to pocket every little thing. If you just power shield arrows and boomerangs, link will have a rough time trying to get close. Save your pocket only for the bombs, so you can set up combos. Lloyd-bomb-fair or something like that.

Little mac can dash under alot of projectiles, but not shieks needles or pikachu thunder jolts. I could see him doing well against megaman and the links, being pretty much even against shiek, and struggling an awful lot against pikachu
Isn't boomerang MUCH better to pocket? Lloid Boomerang FAir or Boomerang --> an aerial / axe in general..
Plus, pocketing boomerang means I don't have to pull it out, put it in my hand, and then be able to throw a single projectile that clogs you from using any moves that aren't specials. Instead I can throw it out whenever, leading to much more freedom, gimps, air dodge reads, and breverses.
Oh, and boomerang has more shield stun.
Bomb just seems like a waste in that MU.. Prolly better to grab it with NAir or grab in mid air..
 

H@ym@ker

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#16
Isn't boomerang MUCH better to pocket? Lloid Boomerang FAir or Boomerang --> an aerial / axe in general..
Plus, pocketing boomerang means I don't have to pull it out, put it in my hand, and then be able to throw a single projectile that clogs you from using any moves that aren't specials. Instead I can throw it out whenever, leading to much more freedom, gimps, air dodge reads, and breverses.
Oh, and boomerang has more shield stun.
Bomb just seems like a waste in that MU.. Prolly better to grab it with NAir or grab in mid air..
Must be a matter of preference. I find the bombs way more worth pocketing. Boomerangs and arrows he can just toss out, they're more spammable so even if you pocket one, another will be on its way. Bombs he at least has to work harder to pull another one out, so he's less likely to send another one your way once you pocket one.

The fact that bombs are held items is why I like them so much. You can do just as many tricky z drop shenanigans as he can with a held bomb, and it can be thrown in any direction as opposed to boomer which can be aimed but still only goes horizontally or diagnally. Also, pocketing the bomb resets the bombs detonation timer. You can literally hold the same one pocketed bomb forever, until you're ready to use it. And unpocketing a bomb is STILL way faster than the animation he has to go throw to pull one out. And I just like the trajectory that bombs send them when they get hit with it, more ideal for nair, dair, uair, usmash, and utilt followups.
 
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H@ym@ker

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#17
He doesn't have to get close =/

He out-projectiles us, and if we try to go up close, he wrecks us with his sword.
He doesn't out projectile me, because as I said, I just power shield, spot dodge, or flat out jump over arrows and boomerang. All he has left is bombs which I pocket or catch. I still have fair, bair, the pot from dash attack, bowling ball, lloid, wood chip, PLUS whatever I take from him on top of that.

I'll say it again, the only reason link or Toon Link would be a hard matchup is if you try to pocket every little thing. Doing that, you're just playing catch up with him the whole time, because his projectiles are a dime a dozen to him. He'll just send out more and all you have is the one pocketed.
 
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Darklink401

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#18
He doesn't out projectile me, because as I said, I just power shield, spot dodge, or flat out jump over arrows and boomerang. All he has left is bombs which I pocket or catch. I still have fair, bair, the pot from dash attack, bowling ball, lloid, wood chip, PLUS whatever I take from him on top of that.

I'll say it again, the only reason link or Toon Link would be a hard matchup is if you try to pocket every little thing. Doing that, you're just playing catch up with him the whole time, because his projectiles are a dime a dozen to him. He'll just send out more and all you have is the one pocketed.
I mean, they can shield our projectiles and jump them too....

dash attack isn't good in neutral, bowling ball isn't a long-range projectile and wood chip is situational.

I'm not saying you can't avoid his projectiles, but he simply wins the projectile war. He even has a shield that auto-blocks projectiles if he isn't doing anything besides walking or crouching.
 

JohnnyB

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#19
I have more problems with Tinks than Links. Those bomb setups are brutal and kill too. I don't find boomerang and arrows to be any kind of threat. It's the bombs that really mess me up.

Also Mac vs Shiek is practically un-winnable. Probably 20-80. Use Villager instead, it's not nearly as bad.

Has anyone considered Ryu as Villager backup? I don't think he has many if any of the same problem matchups that Villager has. High learning curve though.
 

H@ym@ker

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#20
I mean, they can shield our projectiles and jump them too....

dash attack isn't good in neutral, bowling ball isn't a long-range projectile and wood chip is situational.

I'm not saying you can't avoid his projectiles, but he simply wins the projectile war. He even has a shield that auto-blocks projectiles if he isn't doing anything besides walking or crouching.
Dash attack from platforms is an amazing and unexpected neutral zoner, and it's also a potent edgeguard, especially against predictable vertical recoveries like Link's.

Hylian shield does absolutely nothing against Lloid, the explosion hit box covers way more area than the shield. He will get hit every time..

And I'd like to see him try and shield-tank a short hop fair or bair. 9 times out of 10 the villager player will aim for his face anyway, too high for shield, and even if he aims low, the link is not going to have enough time to even think to instantly stop approaching just to avoid the tiny thing.

Bowling ball IS a long range projectile. Have you ever actually seen how far it falls? It covers an immense amount of vertical space, and is great against Link's up B and tether recoveries.

Wood chip is situational, and only spawns every so often, but when it does actually spawn it is an amazing gimp tool for links bad recovery, can stage spike, and can be z-dropped to combo into almost anything.

Also failed to mention Tree. The tree is just a giant shield that can tank 2 out of Link's 3 projectiles. For whatever does get through your tree fortress, you're right there behind it, either waiting with a pocket, or ready to jump over it and fair/bair.

Point is, villager has all the tools he needs to stop link. You can't assume villager loses the matchup just because the conventional horizontal villy camp game doesnt work on him. You just have to be creative, think outside the box, and know the matchup. Play more of a responsive, bait and trap, retreating anti-camp game and you'll find alot more success. Im not trying to start an argument or anything, but I will say that I've fought countless links and never have a problem as long as I follow the steps I've been talking about here. This is just my advice and my take on the matchup, take it or leave it. But you're not the first villy player I've encountered who is disheartened by the link matchup, and so I'll tell you what I told them:

1. When airborne, stay just out of his Zair range, but just inside your slingshot range.

2. Take him to battlefield or lylat and platform camp with bowling ball and dash attack. Villy has much better vertical camp game, it will shut down Link's strictly horizontal/diagonal camp game.

3. Get him offstage and gimp with woodchip, bowlingball, dash attack, or follow him off and wall-of-pain him with fair. Links recovery is lackluster, yours is godly.

4. Abuse tree to its fullest. It will wall out most of Link's camp game, and force either a hasty approach or a frantic retreat, but either way he will stop his annoying camp game.

5. The number one rule for the link matchup that I've found the most helpful, yet what most villager players don't understand: Don't play pocket tag with him. This is exactly what link is expecting and he will destroy you. When you try pocketing every little thing, you're automatically putting yourself one step behind. Thats just how it is. Be mindful, only pocket what would otherwise kill you, or what you can use later for setups, gimps, or combos.


Try some of these, maybe they will help?
 

Darklink401

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#21
Dash attack from platforms is an amazing and unexpected neutral zoner, and it's also a potent edgeguard, especially against predictable vertical recoveries like Link's.

Hylian shield does absolutely nothing against Lloid, the explosion hit box covers way more area than the shield. He will get hit every time..

And I'd like to see him try and shield-tank a short hop fair or bair. 9 times out of 10 the villager player will aim for his face anyway, too high for shield, and even if he aims low, the link is not going to have enough time to even think to instantly stop approaching just to avoid the tiny thing.

Bowling ball IS a long range projectile. Have you ever actually seen how far it falls? It covers an immense amount of vertical space, and is great against Link's up B and tether recoveries.

Wood chip is situational, and only spawns every so often, but when it does actually spawn it is an amazing gimp tool for links bad recovery, can stage spike, and can be z-dropped to combo into almost anything.

Also failed to mention Tree. The tree is just a giant shield that can tank 2 out of Link's 3 projectiles. For whatever does get through your tree fortress, you're right there behind it, either waiting with a pocket, or ready to jump over it and fair/bair.

Point is, villager has all the tools he needs to stop link. You can't assume villager loses the matchup just because the conventional horizontal villy camp game doesnt work on him. You just have to be creative, think outside the box, and know the matchup. Play more of a responsive, bait and trap, retreating anti-camp game and you'll find alot more success. Im not trying to start an argument or anything, but I will say that I've fought countless links and never have a problem as long as I follow the steps I've been talking about here. This is just my advice and my take on the matchup, take it or leave it. But you're not the first villy player I've encountered who is disheartened by the link matchup, and so I'll tell you what I told them:

1. When airborne, stay just out of his Zair range, but just inside your slingshot range.

2. Take him to battlefield or lylat and platform camp with bowling ball and dash attack. Villy has much better vertical camp game, it will shut down Link's strictly horizontal/diagonal camp game.

3. Get him offstage and gimp with woodchip, bowlingball, dash attack, or follow him off and wall-of-pain him with fair. Links recovery is lackluster, yours is godly.

4. Abuse tree to its fullest. It will wall out most of Link's camp game, and force either a hasty approach or a frantic retreat, but either way he will stop his annoying camp game.

5. The number one rule for the link matchup that I've found the most helpful, yet what most villager players don't understand: Don't play pocket tag with him. This is exactly what link is expecting and he will destroy you. When you try pocketing every little thing, you're automatically putting yourself one step behind. Thats just how it is. Be mindful, only pocket what would otherwise kill you, or what you can use later for setups, gimps, or combos.


Try some of these, maybe they will help?
1. I'm not talking about recovery. I'm talking strictly about neutral.
2. You're wrong, Hylian shield does block lloid. If it's a grounded lloid, Link has to crouch to block it however.
3. Shields exist, the Link can shield fair/bair just as well as we can shield his projectiles.
4. You missed the point, the bowling ball IS long-range, vertically, but in terms of outprojectiling Link in the neutral, it's worthless. (and wood chip's gimp potential is just as irrelevant when talking about neutral.)
5. I think you're forgetting Link's projectiles go further than our fair/bair. He can safely stand outside fair/bair range.

I'm not assuming the MU is bad because 'the traditional Villy camping' doesn't work on him. I'm saying its bad because we lose from far away in terms of things we can throw, AND we lose up close.

Your entire argument could be applied to Megaman to make it look better, but you ain't gonna tell me the Megaman matchup isn't bad.

Just because you can find a workaround that sorta works, it doesn't change the fact that the matchup is very difficult.


BTW, I've also faced countless Links, most of whom I've struggled with. Does that make your experience more valuable than mine? I'm not bad AT the matchup, I know how to play it, and BECAUSE I know how to play it, is why I'm telling you that we lose it.
 

JohnnyB

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#23
So if this topic is going to go move foreward it might be worthwhile to list who the bad mus are and how bad they are. In my opinion:

Small disadvantage, but not insurmountable:

-DHD
-Peach
-Lucas
-Roy
-Yoshi
-Link
-Fox
-Shiek (Or is it a little worse than this?)
-Mario
-jigglypuff?
-Diddy Kong

Clear disadvantage:

- Tink
- Palutena
-Metaknight
-Falcon
-Greninja
-Pikachu(edit)
Worst matchups =( :

-Lucario
-Rosa
-Megaman

Obviously the goal here would be to first cover the worst matchups, and then any top tier characters that are unfavorable. Everything else after that would just be a bonus.

What do the rest of you think?
 
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teddystalin

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#24
That seems a pessimistic MU spread. If the mayor has that bad of a spread, they certainly shouldn't be thought of as a top 15 character. While I may be a shiny new villager main, I pay a lot of attention to the theory side of the game and think there are a couple of issues here:

-Peach mains think Villager is one of their worst MUs.
-I also don't think Roy has an advantage against like...any zoning character. His recovery is also super gimpable and that's our thing.
-In general I think all of your slight disadvantages are closer to even.

I'd say the worst MUs for Villager at top level play are Rosa, Sheik, Megaman, and Metaknight. Yoshi seems like a pain too. I dunno much about the Lucario MU though - why do you think it's so bad?
 
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De Wolfe

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#25
Rosa, Sheik, Megaman, Fox, Falco, Palutena, Toon Link and Sonic are the only ones that feel really bad for me. Although I will say that Villager seems really good at dispatching Luma in the Rosa matchup, don't know if thats enough of a game changer. Of those characters Palutena, Fox, Falco and Sonic are the hardest I feel. Those characters reflects just seem tailor made to stop Villagers neutral game in its tracks. And sonic is just impossible to control.

Other characters I've had trouble against are Pikachu and Olimar, but I haven't had enough experience vs them to make a proper judgement. Olimar is kind of a unique character to fight that seems to require a completely different approach and I don't play against him enough to make a call. Pikachu just seems like a nightmare because of quick attack and just speed in general, similar to Sonic.

His three weaknesses are characters with amazing reflects, characters with crazy speed and safety and characters who can out projectile him either durability wise or just being able to put more stuff on the screen at once.

Having said that, because of the strength of his tools I think he always stands a chance even in some of his worst matchups. Hes one of those characters that has alot of creative tools and potential so I can only see him getting better. However, I don't think he'll ever crack top 10. Top 15 sounds about right. If he had a regular grab he would easily be top 5. I wouldn't mind if Nintendo gave him a normal grab but got rid of all the killing power/combo potential of it. It feels very counter intuitive to just have to go whole matches without being able to use a single grab outside of extremely risky hard reads.
 
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JohnnyB

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#26
That seems a pessimistic MU spread. If the mayor has that bad of a spread, they certainly shouldn't be thought of as a top 15 character. While I may be a shiny new villager main, I pay a lot of attention to the theory side of the game and think there are a couple of issues here:

-Peach mains think Villager is one of their worst MUs.
-I also don't think Roy has an advantage against like...any zoning character. His recovery is also super gimpable and that's our thing.
-In general I think all of your slight disadvantages are closer to even.

I'd say the worst MUs for Villager at top level play are Rosa, Sheik, Megaman, and Metaknight. Yoshi seems like a pain too. I dunno much about the Lucario MU though - why do you think it's so bad?
Yeah i probably shouldn't have bothered with the slight disadvantage category since they are very close to even if not actually even. 55-45 to my observations.

Apqrently i need to learn a lot more about Peach, i have two on my f list that body the crap out of my villager lol.

As for Lucario, i don't know why he is that bad. I'm basically gong on what player-1 and zee had to say about it. They play on a much higher level than me, so I'm inclined to take their word on it.

Also i forgot about Pika. Let's fix that...
 

Nintendoge_

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#27
As for Lucario, i don't know why he is that bad. I'm basically gong on what player-1 and zee had to say about it. They play on a much higher level than me, so I'm inclined to take their word on it.
If I recall correctly, their main beef with Lucario x Villager mu is that his counter can punish us for using Lloyds fairly easily.
 
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OGPiP

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#28
I've used Villager as a secondary to my Mario for a while, but it would work pretty well the other way around too. Mario doesn't lose to hard to anyone, so he works pretty well as a secondary for pretty much any character.

That being said, I've recently dropped Mario completley and main Villager and use Sheik as a secondary. Sheik is probably the best secondary for villager, she doesn't loose to anyone really. Has the speed to deal with rush down characters that give Villager problems and can still be played campy if thats what you want to do. She does really good at getting people away from and punishing them.
 

WarTubaFox

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#29
I mean yeah the whole Sheik is a good secondary thing.

I honestly think Rosalina, Meta Knight, or Sonic work well. If you want someone with a similar spacing type playstyle, Rosalina might be your girl. Meta Knight and Sonic (as well as Sheik or Mario) provide a completely different type of gameplay option. A lot of opponents might be conditioned to use shield frequently. So using zone breakers that thrive off of grabs might be the counterpick needed to throw off your opponent.

I've been playing a lot of Villager and Rosalina lately, but I'm interested in trying out MK, Sonic, and Sheik.
 
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#30
I claim Rosalina as my secondary, but I hardly ever actually use her.
TBH, I can't play Sheik, so I would like to know if there's another good option.
 
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#31
I use Rosa as a secondary now as well. Highly recommend it, they're both zoning and space-ing based, and covers a lot of MUs villager struggles with like Palutena, Toon Link, etc.
 
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#32
I use Mario as a secondary because he has decent rush-down and spacing tools, while maintaining a deflector of some kind (because let's face it: Villager's pocket is a deflector with as much delay as we want).
 
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#34
iv'E Mained Villager Since The 3Ds Demo But A Few Months Ago I Picked Up Diddy As A Co MaiN To Cover Certain Matchups Such As Yoshi. Villager And Diddy Actually Have A Nice COntrast In Playstyles.Plus Diddy Turned Out To Be My Favorite Character To Use In Sm4sh. 4a
 

Lamis

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#35
I've been thinking about picking up Bayonetta as a secondary since she has okay matchup vs mk , fox , pika , Rosa, and tink if I'm not mistaken . Any thoughts?
 

Darklink401

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Yuki_Hirako
#36
Can we please stop saying Rosa and Sheik are terribe/bad MUs respectively? xD I think results speak for themselves when most high level sheiks lose to villagers (like Aarvark beating Vinnie) and Ranai vs Dabuz showed us the Rosa MU isnt actually that bad at all.

On the topic of secondaries, yes I think Bayo is a pretty good Villy secondary but idk if she does particularly well vs Pika and Rosa, lol
 

JohnnyB

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#38
Can we please stop saying Rosa and Sheik are terribe/bad MUs respectively? xD I think results speak for themselves when most high level sheiks lose to villagers (like Aarvark beating Vinnie) and Ranai vs Dabuz showed us the Rosa MU isnt actually that bad at all.

On the topic of secondaries, yes I think Bayo is a pretty good Villy secondary but idk if she does particularly well vs Pika and Rosa, lol
I wouldn't mention that match with Vinnie in the same breath as MU spreads. Most Shieks don't run into trees 4 times in one set.

I do still agree that shiek isn't a bad matchup though...
 

Darklink401

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Yuki_Hirako
#39
I wouldn't mention that match with Vinnie in the same breath as MU spreads. Most Shieks don't run into trees 4 times in one set.

I do still agree that shiek isn't a bad matchup though...
Ranai vs Edge as well, and I know False has lost to a Villager, as has Void
 
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