Who Counters Diddy Kong?

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TemplarAnimated
#1
I think its fair to say Diddy Kong is ridiculously top tier, like almost Brawl Meta Knight standard. But I have a feeling Nintendo isn't going to do much about it, and because Diddy Kong isn't as bad as Brawl Meta Knight, he isn't going to get banned any time soon. (Not that I want him banned, he's one of my favourite characters in gaming generally. :D)

So, I know I'm going to have to l2p against him. And I tend to play rush down characters, (Sonic and Fox are the prime examples of my mains) which I have only just clocked on to the fact that they are at a complete disadvantage against the banana wielding monkey. (Sonic slips mid spin dash, I mean come on. :laugh:)

There I'm probably going to need a new character in order to become better at this match up. Of course its not that I don't think Fox and Sonic can't win if I get good enough with them, however tbh if me and my opponent are equally skilled at the game, the Diddy tends to come out on top.

And so, to the main point of this topic, what character, or kind of characters, should I l2p? The kind of characters I've been practicing or I'm more willing to learn are:
  • Marth
  • Mario
  • Shulk
  • Ness
Maybe Megaman & Ike also, but they are 50/50. So are these guys any good or should I be looking for different characters?

Thanks for all the help, and if anyone is up for any games online to help teach me as well feel free to add me @ TemplarAnimated and even on Skype. (PM me for that.)
 

Empty Number

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#2
I have trouble against Sonic mainly - so it's interesting that you have trouble against Diddy. Hmm.

Shulk and Marth don't worry me so much as Diddy. Their moves have enough lag that I can usually find an entry point past their disjoint. Plus, Diddy has a good enough grab game to get insane rewards off any reckless counters.

As far as the characters you listed - Ness is probably the most like Diddy without actually being Diddy. He has an insane combo out of d-throw, he has a disabling projectile, as well as a pretty devastating up air if it's not stale. His b-throw is also insane. Ness is pretty good - but I wouldn't say Diddy has problems with him specifically.

I would actually suggest Luigi instead of Mario. His frame data, move priority, and combo potential is just as good as Mario, but his traction is low enough to put Diddy on tilt when it comes time to punish a hit on shield, or a banana bop. Seriously - I have to completely modify my grab timing to grab Luigi after hitting him with a banana. He slides THAT far.
 
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TemplarAnimated
#3
Yeah when I mix it up enough I can get Sonic to work. As in using his tilts effectively, especially the side. And with the occasional air attack and homing attack, but I struggle to get in enough damage before it becomes repetitive or Diddy just gets equal damage. And with Diddy generally killing earlier than Sonic, equal % isn't exactly getting ahead.

And yeah I heard about Luigi's sliding, but his character is so... Idk, odd for some reason. I should actually just give him a proper go, but the guy just feels all over the place, at least when compared to Mario. But I'll give him a look.

True with Ness, his early kill potential and his options are almost stupidly good, he just has trouble racking in the early percentages I feel.
 

Empty Number

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#4
As much as it pains me to say this:

Try out Megaman too. That character can put up a WALL. None of Diddy's projectiles beat anything Megaman throws out. Seriously. Bananas clank with lemons. It's ridiculous. The only thing Diddy has that helps get in on Megaman is Monkey-Flip Kick, and this is very dangerous to approach with.
 
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#5
Thanks for that tip, I can tell that one took a lot for you to say. :D I have an idea on how to use mega man, but I'm going to need some solid practice and a lot of losing with the guy for me to get good.
 

Rehnquist

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#9
A better Diddy Kong.

No one counters Diddy in this stage in the game. Or we have vastly different definitions of counter.

The reasoning given for megaman or any zoner would literally apply for most characters without a range attack, and in reality it shouldn't count as a counter.

There are 3 states in smash, disadvantaged, advantaged, and neutral. Zoners by definition are built around the neutral with a focus on footsies and walls. Diddy's advantage state is phenomenal borderline ridiculous to where even a minor short coming in the neutral doesn't matter due to power shift that occurs when he gains the advantage.

That being said, these guys aren't counters but pacman and megaman have tools to keep the game in neutral. Hydrant is able to take away brain dead hoo ha's requiring more work on diddy's part to pull it off while megaman hold off with walls hoping for a massive error from an impatient diddy. So a more skilled player playing megaman/pacman can feel like a counter if they are able to zone you the majority of the time. But once the advantage state switches, diddy goes to town.

Shiek has the ability to keep an advantage state which by definition keeps diddy's out of his. There are a few other characters that fall into this as well (especially other grab combo oriented characters) but they either require high precision to keep or the reward is not quite that of the same level of diddy's.
 

Dre89

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#10
A better Diddy Kong.

No one counters Diddy in this stage in the game. Or we have vastly different definitions of counter.

The reasoning given for megaman or any zoner would literally apply for most characters without a range attack, and in reality it shouldn't count as a counter.

There are 3 states in smash, disadvantaged, advantaged, and neutral. Zoners by definition are built around the neutral with a focus on footsies and walls. Diddy's advantage state is phenomenal borderline ridiculous to where even a minor short coming in the neutral doesn't matter due to power shift that occurs when he gains the advantage.

That being said, these guys aren't counters but pacman and megaman have tools to keep the game in neutral. Hydrant is able to take away brain dead hoo ha's requiring more work on diddy's part to pull it off while megaman hold off with walls hoping for a massive error from an impatient diddy. So a more skilled player playing megaman/pacman can feel like a counter if they are able to zone you the majority of the time. But once the advantage state switches, diddy goes to town.

Shiek has the ability to keep an advantage state which by definition keeps diddy's out of his. There are a few other characters that fall into this as well (especially other grab combo oriented characters) but they either require high precision to keep or the reward is not quite that of the same level of diddy's.
He loses slightly to Pacman. People have argued for Sheik and Rosa also beating him. Villager outright counters him. It's probably 6-4 Villager's way.
 

Rehnquist

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#11
He loses slightly to Pacman. People have argued for Sheik and Rosa also beating him. Villager outright counters him. It's probably 6-4 Villager's way.
I'm aware of pacman's strengths I listed him after all, same with shiek, I even explained why they have those advantages.

Pocket villagers used to be common against diddy's but that has been dying out and being replaced by pocket diddy's due to effectiveness. I can see Villager having a favorable match up, I can agree with that. I am hesitant to call it a counter. As far as numbers go, I've seen people have wide varied definitions on what the numbers means to where some thread just outright define it themselves.

I entirely believe that there is a lot of potential from the other characters which have yet to be taped that will even out the playing field a bit. But at this point in time, the results given by tournaments show that the meta for the other characters has not advanced far enough yet to bring diddy back closer to the mean average. So with the current meta of late 2014 to early 2015, diddy is clearly above the other characters lacking a real counter.

I find it hard to argue with tourney results, the results tell us which characters have been getting more attention by top players (thus more developed) and more wins. I don't think its questioned that diddy has been pushed further and explored more than the other characters. In the same breathe, Villager is not some secret and is known for his kits strong zoning properties against diddy since the first patch, yet while tourney results for villager aren't dreadful, its nowhere where it should be in an environment dominated by diddy wins. In quite a few tourney's diddy has comprised about 1/8 of the tourney population after qualifying rounds. I've watched tourney's where both the semi final and finals were just diddy mirrors. One would think of that this would highly incentive picking up a villager.

Villager should be thriving in this setting if he was a solid counter. So at the very least even if we assume he is a solid counter, then he hasn't been developed enough and or garnered enough attention by top players in tourney's to demonstrate a consistent ability to do so via numbers. The other possibility is that villager is not a solid counter but is able to hold his own and or some favorable match up against diddy due to zoners abilities in general to play the neutral.

Again, I am stressing the "so far.." angle here as long term results will tell us the statistical truth, which we are not there yet.
 
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#12
I'm aware of pacman's strengths I listed him after all, same with shiek, I even explained why they have those advantages.

Pocket villagers used to be common against diddy's but that has been dying out and being replaced by pocket diddy's due to effectiveness. I can see Villager having a favorable match up, I can agree with that. I am hesitant to call it a counter. As far as numbers go, I've seen people have wide varied definitions on what the numbers means to where some thread just outright define it themselves.

I entirely believe that there is a lot of potential from the other characters which have yet to be taped that will even out the playing field a bit. But at this point in time, the results given by tournaments show that the meta for the other characters has not advanced far enough yet to bring diddy back closer to the mean average. So with the current meta of late 2014 to early 2015, diddy is clearly above the other characters lacking a real counter.

I find it hard to argue with tourney results, the results tell us which characters have been getting more attention by top players (thus more developed) and more wins. I don't think its questioned that diddy has been pushed further and explored more than the other characters. In the same breathe, Villager is not some secret and is known for his kits strong zoning properties against diddy since the first patch, yet while tourney results for villager aren't dreadful, its nowhere where it should be in an environment dominated by diddy wins. In quite a few tourney's diddy has comprised about 1/8 of the tourney population after qualifying rounds. I've watched tourney's where both the semi final and finals were just diddy mirrors. One would think of that this would highly incentive picking up a villager.

Villager should be thriving in this setting if he was a solid counter. So at the very least even if we assume he is a solid counter, then he hasn't been developed enough and or garnered enough attention by top players in tourney's to demonstrate a consistent ability to do so via numbers. The other possibility is that villager is not a solid counter but is able to hold his own and or some favorable match up against diddy due to zoners abilities in general to play the neutral.

Again, I am stressing the "so far.." angle here as long term results will tell us the statistical truth, which we are not there yet.
and diddy better pray that customs don't get used in the long run. normla villager is 6-4 and he gets a LOT out of customs.

sonic and rosalina might be disadvantageous with customs too...
 

Pogoshark

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#13
Ive heard Luigi Counters Diddy due to the way his traction works.
It lets him evade some follow ups and Ive heard it influences his trajectory when we downthrow him
I could be completely wrong though.

I have a lot of trouble with the Olimar match up myself, thrown pikmin block bananas, whistle lets him super armour upair and lets him get an upair on us, and Diddys hitboxs seem to be at the ends of his hands and feet so pikmin are really hard to shake off
 

54BR3 WU1F

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#18
Yeah no, I really struggle with Diddy because I can't read his grabs or any other attack so I never have enough time to roll away or dodge. (I'm a Falco main) I've never tried using my secondary (Charizard) but I doubt it would end very well at all. I'm not sure about trying a new character just for Diddys but can anyone help me with how to use my main (and secondary) to beat Diddy?
 

Sonicninja115

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#19
Yeah no, I really struggle with Diddy because I can't read his grabs or any other attack so I never have enough time to roll away or dodge. (I'm a Falco main) I've never tried using my secondary (Charizard) but I doubt it would end very well at all. I'm not sure about trying a new character just for Diddys but can anyone help me with how to use my main (and secondary) to beat Diddy?
Personally, I find that some aspects of Link/TL and Corrin are really hard for Diddy to handle. Top player results show this as well with MVD losing to a lower level TL at a tournament back in March. However, if you know the MU then the link/TL fight isn't that hard. A more conventional counter is Rosaluma as Luma deflects Banana and Rosa can easily gimp Diddy.
 

54BR3 WU1F

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#20
Personally, I find that some aspects of Link/TL and Corrin are really hard for Diddy to handle. Top player results show this as well with MVD losing to a lower level TL at a tournament back in March. However, if you know the MU then the link/TL fight isn't that hard. A more conventional counter is Rosaluma as Luma deflects Banana and Rosa can easily gimp Diddy.
Thanks! I think that I'll end up learning Link for a while because I know he has decent attacks and such. First I'll see if I can beat a level 9 CPU Diddy with Falco and Charizard and if I really cant, then I'll learn Link for sure. Then I'll try against CPU Diddy again. Thanks for your advice!
 

Teran

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#25
Sheik is not the type of character you pick up for one MU.

Also why does a Sonic or Fox need a secondary for Diddy? It doesn't get much better against Diddy than either of those characters (they both go even with Diddy).
Did you really just post a rebuttal to a post over a year old, with many subsequent patches having been released?

Okay.
 

willyyysmash

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#27
Ness, Luigi, Mario, Sonic and Villager are in my point of view the worst matchups.

In general, Diddy suffers against campers and aggressive characters. Besides, we have some problems to hit the banana to these characters.
 

Axel311

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#28
Ness, Luigi, Mario, Sonic and Villager are in my point of view the worst matchups.

In general, Diddy suffers against campers and aggressive characters. Besides, we have some problems to hit the banana to these characters.
If by "suffers" you mean goes about even or loses by a hair instead of the usual 65:35 then yeah, Diddy suffers against those characters. lol.
 
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Omastar

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#29
I think Mega Man does a good job against Diddy. His pellets can cancel out banana, hard to kill since he is heavy, and has the tools that can keep him out. ZeRo has since learned the matchup, but Abadango and Kameme still do well with the character.
 
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MERPIS

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#32
From experience, I'd say...
Mario
Luigi
Mega Man
Olimar
Sonic
and Pikachu.

I really dislike charizard, but that's just a personal bad MU. Also mewtwo can give you hell if he keeps you away from Banana and keeps you out of your range and into his dtilt's range.
 

NuzTheMonkey

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#35
>:4bayonetta:

You kidding me?
Guy, if anything, DIddy wins that.
Really campy Sonic annoys the crap out of me. Fox is becoming easier with practice. Bayo. God help me. Maybe because none of my friends main her, so I can't practice strategies. If you guys have tips they are greatly appreciated. I can practice against Sonic and Fox but not Bayo.
 

EmpireCrusher203

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#36
In my opeenyon, Diddy has trouble with Olimar (cause the fricking pikimin literally lift his bananas and olimar can really camp Diddy) and Megaman (cuz pellets). He sorta goes even with Mario. Ally says Mario loses to Diddy when Diddy has no banana in hand, which i can sorta agree with. Mario has lots of tools to counter to banana, however his lack of range leave Mario vulnerable to Diddy's other tools. Diddy's frame data allows for fair to autocancel and down tilt is be near lagless, therefore these two tools can space out Mario. I don't agree that Diddy loses to Sonic, just watch Zero's set against KEN at CEO. Bayo has a weak neutral compared to Diddy but has a sick punish game, so I think it's sorta even as well. I think Diddy with Pikachu, as long as the Diddy doesn't commit to much and plays it safe. As for Luigi, although he has a few gimmicks that make this MU inconvenient for Diddy, I still think Diddy's oppressive neutral and Luigi's disadvantage state cause this to also go even. Luigi has always been an easy MU for me, as long as I get some momentum going. Sheik and Diddy go pretty evenly since they both have OP neutral games. Villager is an annoying prick, cuz he can pocket your banana, but you honestly just play it safe and use the banana wisely, and yaknow POWERSHIELD everything.

Bayo. God help me. Maybe because none of my friends main her, so I can't practice strategies. If you guys have tips they are greatly appreciated. I can practice against Sonic and Fox but not Bayo.
If it helps you can find some Bayonetta mains online or at a local, there is bound to be at least one. Bayonetta is a pretty scary MU, but you just have to play it safe. Have a banana in hand and always maintain a safe distance from her. Remember that Bayo has weak approach options (newbs usually use heel slide, dash grab, or dash attack but these are all super laggy), so Bayo has to wait for YOU to approach. Don't approach, eventually Bayo has to approach in order to get some momentum going, in which she will fail due to the almighty banana.
 
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