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Where would you place Jigglypuff on a tier list

Where would you put Jigglypuff on a tier list

  • Top Tier

    Votes: 4 3.8%
  • High Tier

    Votes: 2 1.9%
  • In Between High Tier and Middle Tier

    Votes: 2 1.9%
  • Upper Mid Tier

    Votes: 2 1.9%
  • Mid Tier

    Votes: 8 7.6%
  • Lower Mid Tier

    Votes: 23 21.9%
  • Low Tier

    Votes: 21 20.0%
  • Bottom Tier

    Votes: 28 26.7%
  • Worst Character

    Votes: 15 14.3%

  • Total voters
    105

Wintermelon43

Smash Champion
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Feb 13, 2015
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NOTE: DO NOT REPLY IF YOU DON'T MAIN OR SECONDARY JIGGLYPUFF.

So, Jigglypuff users, where do you think Jigglypuff would place on a tier list? The reason why I ask is because I think Jigglypuff is better than what people say, WAY better. People say she's low or bottom tier, but I think she is Lower-Mid. But, I almost never see Jigglypuff mains on any forums apart from the Jigglypuff boards, and when I do see them outside of the Jigglypuff boards, They never say where they think she would be on a tier list. So I wanted to see if most Jigglypuff mains also think she is lower-mid, like I do, or if they agree that she is Low/Bottom.

I think she is Lower-Mid, for a big reason. I don't feel like posting it right now, so here's a tl;dr:

Great air attacks, good KO power, good side and down special, good recovery, really fast air speed, Good spacing, etc.

Better reasons later
 
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SafCar

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Jigglypuff suffers in this game compared to previous ones.
  • Ledge Mechanics - she can't edge guard half as well, particularly if the opponent has good recovery
  • Shield Stun Changes - thanks to the new formula, she can't shield nearly as safely. This means easy shield breaks, which means immediate stock loss.
  • Moveset Changes - Dair -> Rest doesn't work anymore, Sing has 3 hitboxes now, and her flaws are much more obvious this time.
However, she does shine in some aspects.
  • Ledge Fighting - Against the few bad recovery characters, Jigglypuff shines brighter than ever thanks to ledge trumps and stage spikes
  • Moveset Mechanics Changed - Sing works like a grapple now, which is helpful for hard reads. Rest is easier to land. Nair has crazy good priority for a close range attack.
  • New Stages - High Ceilings are our saving grace, and daddy Sakurai has added in high ceilings as a sort of Christmas/Hanukkah/etc. present.
She's not as high as she was in Melee, but she's certainly better than in Brawl. I'd put her in mid tier at the highest, high-low tier at the lowest.
 

Mada90

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I voted Low Tier.I will explain my reasons better later,but for now i'll just say that she lacks almost everything that makes a character good in smash 4 sadly.

So,first of i want to say that i main Puff since Melee,i do not have or want any secondaries,and i will do everything i can to push her to the best she can be.
But,that doesn't change the reality.

In my opinion,this is what a character needs to have in Sm4sh to be good:

-Good frame data
-Effective tools in the neutral
-Reliable kill confirms/combos
-Good throws (Kill throws/Throw combos)
-Good recovery/survival capability

And this is what Puff has:

-Good frame data
Yes and absolutely no. Her aerials have good frame data,and make up for long cooldown with long lasting hitboxes.
Also some of her tilts do,dash attack and pound are decent. Rest is a special case of course,but you still cant say it has good frame data when it has the longest cooldown in the game.(I think)
The rest? Very very bad. Most of all her smashes.

-Effective tools in the neutral
All we have is spacing and mindgames.No reliable approach options whatsoever,we have to sweat and bleed to win every single neutral situation. Heavy projectile users can wall us easily aswell.

-Reliable kill confirms/combos
We have none. The important thing here is the word reliable. Because we do have some kill confirms with dair to rest for example but they are EXTREMELY situational and hard to pull off.

-Good throws (Kill throws/Throw combos)
Again,nothing.

-Good recovery/survival capabilities
We do have a good recovery,but in a game were almost everybody has it,ours is not that good compared to some of the cast.Can we survive long? No. Our weight has is positive sides aswell,we can escape from most combos,but it makes us very frail,and so does our shield.

All this in my opinion makes Puff low tier. There are worst characters,but there are way more better ones.

It doesn't change the fact that i love Puff and i will always main her. Plus we can always hope for some buffs right?
 
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I_am_SK

Smash Rookie
Joined
Nov 3, 2015
Messages
15
Low/bottom tier unfortunately.

Below average KO options
No throw combos
No throw game whatsoever
Terrible ground game
Laggy aerials
Ridiculously light
Many situational moves that are next to worthless
Poor range
No approach

This isn't to say that she doesn't have good aspects. Long lasting hit boxes, solid gimping game, etc. The advantages simply do not outweigh the disadvantages, by a long shot.

-cry- life is so hard as a Jiggs main
 

Kaishin

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Apr 22, 2014
Messages
79
I went generous and decided to put lower-mid.

Why the flying **** is our dash attack unsafe on hit until the average opponent hits like 40%. That's dumb af. Same thing with fair if we want to convert. Can't do it before 40%. We have to retreat with it. This is important because as a result Jigglypuff lacks punish moves. This makes a lot of stuff safe on shield against Puff that shouldn't be since the best thing we get from a punish is a fair that gives up stage control (because we have to retreat with it). ****ing stupid. If I could change one thing (actually two things), that's... the second thing I would change.

The first thing is our nair. I don't mind it being frame six. What I do mind is that the top tiers have better nairs. Yoshi, Luigi, and especially Mario have no business having nairs faster than Puff's. And Yoshi's kills just like Puff's, making it definitively better than hers. Puff should have a frame one nair. So Puff's OoS Game and general Oh-****-Game is a lot worse than you would expect thanks to half of the cast and almost all of the top tiers having faster options.

So yeah, bad punish game and OoS are the two big things that really hurt Jigglypuff. Throws aren't too good either against any opponent that we can't do much against off stage.

Our ground game isn't irredeemably awful, but the moves are all pretty bad outside of utilt (kills), jab (fast, disrupts, and has a disjoint and good range), and dash attack (kills and has shield armor, which means properly timed it just straight-up beats almost everything). These three ground options are all good, but not exceptional.

Our aerial game can't compensate for this, because the options it gives us are also good, but again, not that spectacular. Fair is a good comboer past 30 or 40% and a decent spacing tool, bair kills incredibly early for an aerial (but it's slow and in no way reliable), nair is a great roll punisher, dair occasionally combos into rest, and uair makes a decent emergency killer and its weird hitbox combined with puff's mobility makes for some very unorthodox tactics. But they're just good, and that's all they are.

Also despite the now massive hitbox, rest got indirectly nerfed thanks to people often exploding off the top causing them to respawn earlier and allowing puff to be punished for killing with it. That's dumb af.
 
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Stickmanlolz

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She's in that awkward spot between lower mid and low tier, but as a main I will be more optimistic and say lower mid.

What makes her so low is the fact that she has no recovery move, 2 useless specials (rollout is slightly better, but still), no aerial spike one of the fewest number of sound files (seriously like only 18 voice clips or so), weak throw game, laggy kill moves.

what makes her higher than low is her god like ability to edgeguard nearly the whole cast, rest combos(though few in number),dair racks up damage quite nicely and coupled with pound can seriously harass sheilds, and the taunt where she rappidly spins, stops on a dime and looks up in to the heavens at Daddy Sakurai hoping, praying for buffs.
 

Kaishin

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Messages
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She's in that awkward spot between lower mid and low tier, but as a main I will be more optimistic and say lower mid.

What makes her so low is the fact that she has no recovery move, 2 useless specials (rollout is slightly better, but still), no aerial spike one of the fewest number of sound files (seriously like only 18 voice clips or so), weak throw game, laggy kill moves.

what makes her higher than low is her god like ability to edgeguard nearly the whole cast, rest combos(though few in number),dair racks up damage quite nicely and coupled with pound can seriously harass sheilds, and the taunt where she rappidly spins, stops on a dime and looks up in to the heavens at Daddy Sakurai hoping, praying for buffs.
Oh yeah, that reminds me. Jigglypuff down taunt is OP. It flattens her and actually causes attacks to go over her head. Absolutely hilarious.

Please tell me more about how to use dair oh great stickman. I would love to know.
 

Stickmanlolz

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Oh yeah, that reminds me. Jigglypuff down taunt is OP. It flattens her and actually causes attacks to go over her head. Absolutely hilarious.

Please tell me more about how to use dair oh great stickman. I would love to know.
Why of course Kaishin. It Pokes shields(almost as potent as pound), off stage gimping(go forward then back to send them out in front of you for a more potent wall (nair, fair), SHFFLD Uair-> Dair->Dair(no one expects that one), when offstage you can manipulate it to stage spike people. I think there may be a thread on the utilities of this move somewhere, but I could be wrong.
 

DarkK

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Joined
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Messages
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She's sadly low tier, and even though I main her, I can see that she has lots of flaws.

As Kaishin said, we can get punished for actually LANDING the moves! fair, dash attack and jab are punishable when they connect at any % lower than 40, which is absolutely ridiculous and unaceptable. Her most famous combo, the wall of pain, is punishable as you're doing it, which once again takes away one of her options. I kind of get what they were going for, making Puff more reliable as the damage racks up on your opponent, but the problem is that you don't have anything reliable when the battle starts. Add to that the fact that she's as fragile as Mewtwo (someone who can be killed at 40%) and you get a bad combination.

None of her moves are save on shield, absolutely none of them. She can land anything on shield and she would get grabbed or smash attacked, and there's nothing she can do. If she had more hitsun on her moves, maybe she wouldn't get punished as hard.
 

Infinite901

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She's bottom 10, sadly. I'm considering picking up a high/top tier to make up for it. In a game where defensive options are as good as they are, she doesn't really stand much of a chance.
 

MarioMeteor

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Not good enough to be mid tier, not bad enough to be low tier, so I guess the closest thing to that is lower mid tier.
 

Jiggly

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She's sadly low tier, and even though I main her, I can see that she has lots of flaws.

As Kaishin said, we can get punished for actually LANDING the moves! fair, dash attack and jab are punishable when they connect at any % lower than 40, which is absolutely ridiculous and unaceptable. Her most famous combo, the wall of pain, is punishable as you're doing it, which once again takes away one of her options. I kind of get what they were going for, making Puff more reliable as the damage racks up on your opponent, but the problem is that you don't have anything reliable when the battle starts. Add to that the fact that she's as fragile as Mewtwo (someone who can be killed at 40%) and you get a bad combination.

None of her moves are save on shield, absolutely none of them. She can land anything on shield and she would get grabbed or smash attacked, and there's nothing she can do. If she had more hitsun on her moves, maybe she wouldn't get punished as hard.
Bair is safe on shield. So is utilt technically, its just your only safe option is a grab. Also, you can float back with nair and its safe on shield if they dont have a projectile that's super quick.
 

Stickmanlolz

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She's sadly low tier, and even though I main her, I can see that she has lots of flaws.

As Kaishin said, we can get punished for actually LANDING the moves! fair, dash attack and jab are punishable when they connect at any % lower than 40, which is absolutely ridiculous and unaceptable. Her most famous combo, the wall of pain, is punishable as you're doing it, which once again takes away one of her options. I kind of get what they were going for, making Puff more reliable as the damage racks up on your opponent, but the problem is that you don't have anything reliable when the battle starts. Add to that the fact that she's as fragile as Mewtwo (someone who can be killed at 40%) and you get a bad combination.

None of her moves are save on shield, absolutely none of them. She can land anything on shield and she would get grabbed or smash attacked, and there's nothing she can do. If she had more hitsun on her moves, maybe she wouldn't get punished as hard.
Our well spaced F-air would like to speak with you
 

DarkK

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Jump, use move, move back as it hits, you will be too far unless they havve a projectile or ddd's ftilt
By jump, do you mean full hop? I tend to use fair with a short hop. And should I hit with just the tip of Puff's feet?
 

Dapplegonger

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Until I see more players performing well with Puff, I'd say she's low/bottom tier. I personally believe that she has the tools to be mid tier at least, but nobody's really been able to show that yet unfortunately. If Hbox starts being more active in Smash 4 with Puff, or if some new player steps up and actually shows that Puff can succeed outside of a local scale, then I'd put her in mid tier. I just haven't seen too much proof that she's not garbage.

She's just so fun to play though.
 
D

Deleted member

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She's def bottom tier, easily bottom 3. She has terrible ground game, no throw game, dies incredibly early and loses hard to shield and she has no notable tourney reps. Even Hungrybox has dropped her for Wario.
 

Drevis2

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I think she is lower mid tier, which seems to be the most popular vote. She has a lot of tools that she can use in certain situations but the problem is she kind of relies on these. She can't approach as well as the rest of the cast, she has to wait for a mistake to happen, and punish. However, if somebody masters her, she couldn't be possibly lower high tier. But the person who masters her has to put much more training and effort than most pro smashers do, which makes sense for a low tier. A Pichu player could be the best player in melee, but he/she would have to work much more to reach that goal. Much more than any smasher should ever have to handle. This is sort of similar to Puff, although not near as bad, since Sm4sh is much more balanced than melee and Puff isn't the worst in the game imo. (I know Pichu technically isn't either, but he is much closer than Puff is) What I'm saying is, Jigglypuff could become much higher in the tier list, but a lot of work must be done to accomplish this. But for right now, nobody is using her in the metagame right now, you never see her in many tournaments besides for Serynder, so she is lower mid. I hope Serynder or somebody will bring Puff to the top someday.
 

Drevis2

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She's def bottom tier, easily bottom 3. She has terrible ground game, no throw game, dies incredibly early and loses hard to shield and she has no notable tourney reps. Even Hungrybox has dropped her for Wario.
I hate to disagree, she may have all of those things, but I know people will think I'm weird for saying this, but I honestly think air game is more important than ground game, slightly. Which she has a very good air game to utilize. Her floatyness actually makes her harder to combo. She has a move that can KO you very early if used right. (Although it has great risk, of course I'm talking about rest!) The shield doesn't matter in this game as much, because a good Puff will not get their shield broken. Also Serynder is making Puff look pretty decent in tournament, he has been since brawl. He may not be up there in the top player spot but he's the best we have for now.
 

Drevis2

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I think she is lower mid tier, which seems to be the most popular vote. She has a lot of tools that she can use in certain situations but the problem is she kind of relies on these. She can't approach as well as the rest of the cast, she has to wait for a mistake to happen, and punish. However, if somebody masters her, she couldn't be possibly lower high tier. But the person who masters her has to put much more training and effort than most pro smashers do, which makes sense for a low tier. A Pichu player could be the best player in melee, but he/she would have to work much more to reach that goal. Much more than any smasher should ever have to handle. This is sort of similar to Puff, although not near as bad, since Sm4sh is much more balanced than melee and Puff isn't the worst in the game imo. (I know Pichu technically isn't either, but he is much closer than Puff is) What I'm saying is, Jigglypuff could become much higher in the tier list, but a lot of work must be done to accomplish this. But for right now, nobody is using her in the metagame right now, you never see her in many tournaments besides for Serynder, so she is lower mid. I hope Serynder or somebody will bring Puff to the top someday.
Also, it should be mentioned that what I said about the tiers can be said with any character, I'm posting in here too much though, I'll slow it down unless something important comes up or somebody replies.
 
D

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I hate to disagree, she may have all of those things, but I know people will think I'm weird for saying this, but I honestly think air game is more important than ground game, slightly. Which she has a very good air game to utilize. Her floatyness actually makes her harder to combo. She has a move that can KO you very early if used right. (Although it has great risk, of course I'm talking about rest!) The shield doesn't matter in this game as much, because a good Puff will not get their shield broken. Also Serynder is making Puff look pretty decent in tournament, he has been since brawl. He may not be up there in the top player spot but he's the best we have for now.
Even though Rest KOs early, it's still not safe considering if the opponent gets Blast KO'd, they can still come up to Jigglypuff and end up punishing (or killing her) while she's still sleeping. Her air game is very goop, but you can't air camp and weave in with aerials forever. What I meant by Jiggs losing to shield is that none of her moves can do jack whenever an opponent puts up their shield except for Pound, which has horrendous endlag and is predictable anyway. Serynder is good, but unless she gets more reps and more consistent results then I'm convinced she's bottom. She's like Shulk where a ton of people overrated her at launch then began to drop her like a rock for better characters once they realized she was garbage.
 

Stickmanlolz

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Even though Rest KOs early, it's still not safe considering if the opponent gets Blast KO'd, they can still come up to Jigglypuff and end up punishing (or killing her) while she's still sleeping. Her air game is very goop, but you can't air camp and weave in with aerials forever. What I meant by Jiggs losing to shield is that none of her moves can do jack whenever an opponent puts up their shield except for Pound, which has horrendous endlag and is predictable anyway. Serynder is good, but unless she gets more reps and more consistent results then I'm convinced she's bottom. She's like Shulk where a ton of people overrated her at launch then began to drop her like a rock for better characters once they realized she was garbage.
We still have clutch rest combo's, high aerial movement speed and edge-guarding.
 

Dapplegonger

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Even though Rest KOs early, it's still not safe considering if the opponent gets Blast KO'd, they can still come up to Jigglypuff and end up punishing (or killing her) while she's still sleeping. Her air game is very goop, but you can't air camp and weave in with aerials forever. What I meant by Jiggs losing to shield is that none of her moves can do jack whenever an opponent puts up their shield except for Pound, which has horrendous endlag and is predictable anyway. Serynder is good, but unless she gets more reps and more consistent results then I'm convinced she's bottom. She's like Shulk where a ton of people overrated her at launch then began to drop her like a rock for better characters once they realized she was garbage.
Even though she can't do much to shield, her aerials are still pretty safe on shield. So even if the opponent decides to just sit in shield all the time, Puff can still weave in and out trying to poke, and the opponent can't punish her OoS.

EDIT: Also, do you actually main/secondary Puff? It doesn't say so in your profile, and it specifically asks for votes from Puff mains. I appreciate the input, but if you did vote it seems to go against what the OP asked for.
 
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drakeirving

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The shield doesn't matter in this game as much, because a good Puff will not get their shield broken.
They meant that Puff can't do jack as long as the opponent shields properly.

Even though she can't do much to shield, her aerials are still pretty safe on shield. So even if the opponent decides to just sit in shield all the time, Puff can still weave in and out trying to poke, and the opponent can't punish her OoS.
That's still not quite true, since many characters are going to have a ranged option that covers your retreat. Diddy can just throw a banana or Flip, Links can bomb, Mega Man lemons, Pikachu can Quick Attack, characters with tether grabs can generally grab you, and characters with fast enough ground speed can often take advantage of how long your aerials last to rush in before it ends. Yeah your moves can be fairly safe against someone like Marth, but whether a move is truly "safe" on shield or not sort of depends on who's shielding.
 

LunarWingCloud

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From my experience, probably higher end of low or lower end of mid. She has amazing aerials almost on par with her Melee variation, but her KO options are pretty bad compared to a lot of characters and Rest just doesn't make up for it. Like was said earlier throw options aren't very great either and the new ledge mechanics make some of her strong points feel slightly watered down. Overall she's definitely usable, though at a clear disadvantage to a lot of characters in this game. She's suffered a bad case of the game changing around her more than her being changed.
 

Uncle Tonkle

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I voted lower mid tier. I feel like Jiggs has a little too many gimmicks to be low tier. Crouch actually changes a lot of matchups if you utilize it well, especially since it usually goes straight into a free SH rest. If you pull this off against someone twice (or 3 depending on ruleset) it can be a game. Then game 2 the opponent will be afraid to throw out a bunch of moves. I think Captain Falcon and ZSS the most notable matchups that change with this, since you take away their throw combos. Of course there's dash attack mixups, but I'll take their dash attacks over their throws any day, especially with how floaty Jiggs is.

Of course, people already talked about all the other things, Jiggs does have a bunch of very clear problems. Crouch doesn't justify them enough to deal with most matchups, but to me that definitely makes Jiggs stand out from the other current low tiers.


That said, I don't think it's all that important whether she's higher low or lower mid or solid mid, especially since this game's meta feels really underdeveloped. The fact that people are looking at the likes of Yoshi and one person says he's top 10 and the other says he would feel optimistic putting him in high tier says enough for that.
 

Quarium

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I've been playing puff since I got the game and I can safely say she is low tier at worst and lower-mid at best.

Mada gave some pretty sound reasoning.

As much freedom as we have in the air, any player who's above average can punish Puff really hard for just about the smallest mistakes.

Only things I can see improving her are:

*A Killthrow

*Dash attack going through shields(ending behind enemies) and having little lag so you can react pretty dang fast upon doing so.

*Also making Dash attack's transcendent hitbox start sooner so it can be reliably used(Transcendent hitbox is a hitbox that bests anything, Jiggly has this right at the end of dash attack.)

*bair being faster and having bigger shield push

*Pound having less knockback growth so it can used to combo at some percents(but not with rest)

*Uptilt being way freaking faster, maybe even faster or at the same speed than Fox/Kirby. That way it would be neato secondary kill move.

OR

*Uptilt being as slow as it is but having set knockback so it can always combo into rest, this is far from unbalanced since Jiggly's are barely on the floor and landing the move in it's current speed is extremely hard agaisnt an above average player or even low level ones.

Those are the things at the top of my head.
 

drakeirving

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Dash attack's transcendent hitbox start sooner so it can be reliably used(Transcendent hitbox is a hitbox that bests anything, Jiggly has this right at the end of dash attack.)
It isn't transcendent. A transcendent hitbox is a hitbox that doesn't clank. Dash attack has trample, which will continue going when the first hit clanks rather than stop. Attacks that deal enough damage will still beat it, aerials will beat it, and other trampling multihits that hit faster than the second hit will beat it.

bair having bigger shield push
Shield pushback is mostly a property of the characters (their traction), and is affected by damage. Can't really change that very nicely.
 

Furret24

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I think limiting this to only Puff mains isn't a very smart idea, since most people are biased toward their main.

If you'd like my opinion (I'm a former Jigglypuff secondary), I think she's easily bottom 3. Maybe even the worst.
 
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Furret24

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If i let non-Jigglypuff's vote, it'll be biased even more because no one knows about her
You're also limiting people who do know her, yet don't main her. Some of her mains don't really know her well either, like you. I mean, you flat out deny some of her flaws. Atleast, that's what showed here.

It's actually kinda funny you asked for reasons why Jigglypuff was bad without "misconceptions and lies", yet you used misconceptions and lies when you tried to argue against some of the points brought up.
 
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jigglesthepuff

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Jigglypuff is meh. She got buffed since brawl, (Rest,) but some of her most crippling flaws remain, (light weight, poor ground speed.) She's definitely low tier.
 

Furret24

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Jigglypuff is meh. She got buffed since brawl, (Rest,) but some of her most crippling flaws remain, (light weight, poor ground speed.) She's definitely low tier.
I'd say it's debatable whether she actually got buffed from Brawl. Sure Rest and bair are better, but at the cost of having a much weaker shield, even worse ground game, a massive nerf to Rollout, worse recovery, and a nerfed aerial game due to an overall buff to recovery and ledge mechanics.
 

I_am_SK

Smash Rookie
Joined
Nov 3, 2015
Messages
15
I'd say it's debatable whether she actually got buffed from Brawl. Sure Rest and bair are better, but at the cost of having a much weaker shield, even worse ground game, a massive nerf to Rollout, worse recovery, and a nerfed aerial game due to an overall buff to recovery and ledge mechanics.
That's seriously depressing. If Jigglypuff hasn't really been buffed from brawl then something needs to change.
 
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