Where does Ness belong on the tier list?

[Captain Phobos]

I think Melee Ness is better than he gets credit for. If I were to give him a place, it would be more around mid tier than lower tier like most people think.

 

[CanBeatAnyFaux]

Bottom 4 ez. If you can show me 10 characters he's better than I'd love to think of him as mid tier.

 

[Ryuphoton]

I'd say ness is definitely still a low tier character, but I think he is better than Bowser, Kirby, Pichu and maybe Roy.

 

[Bubble Nugget]

I think he gets a bit less credit than he deserves, but probably not higher than bottom 5 or 6. Better than Roy, Bowser, Zelda, Kirby, and Pichu in my opinion.

 

[CanBeatAnyFaux]

There's no way he's better than Pichu lmao
Pichu has a good dash dance, strong aerials and kill options as well as one of the best recoveries in the game. Roy has a good dash dance as well and fares far better than Ness against fast fallers. He also has a sword no matter how noodly. I think Zelda and Ness are really close and have similar flaws but Zelda has more range and kill power. I can't justify putting him above Zelda.
low tiers imo:

 

[Captain Phobos]

There's no way he's better than Pichu lmao
Pichu has a good dash dance, strong aerials and kill options as well as one of the best recoveries in the game. Roy has a good dash dance as well and fares far better than Ness against fast fallers. He also has a sword no matter how noodly. I think Zelda and Ness are really close and have similar flaws but Zelda has more range and kill power. I can't justify putting him above Zelda.
low tiers imo:

Ness does good against bigger characters like Bowser and Donkey Kong since Ness can easily start combos with them. Mewtwo and Roy can also get hit pretty easily.

 

[CanBeatAnyFaux]

Everyone combos big characters well(except Roy and Bowser LUL) and Ness has really poor neutral options even with DJC.
Pichu has neutral and kill options.
Mewtwo has good combo potential.
Roy has a neutral and some Marth-esque stuff with grab.
Zelda has kill power and throw mixups.
Ness has ?????????

What does Ness excel at that really pushes him above these characters?

 

[Ryuphoton]

Everyone combos big characters well(except Roy and Bowser LUL) and Ness has really poor neutral options even with DJC.
Pichu has neutral and kill options.
Mewtwo has good combo potential.
Roy has a neutral and some Marth-esque stuff with grab.
Zelda has kill power and throw mixups.
Ness has ?????????

What does Ness excel at that really pushes him above these characters?

I'd say ness's throw game and range outshine at least what bowser and zelda can bring to the table.

 

[Bubble Nugget]

Yeah, good points, but I don't think Roy is better. Roy may have a good dash dance and grab range, but if his moves are crouch canceled and the opponent just stays on platforms, there is very little he can do. Once Roy gets hit, he gets combed really hard, and even if he manages to get in on the opponent, he has very few combos. Not to mention he gets edgeguarded even harder than Ness does. If Ness gets in, he can really do work with DJC aerials. I think his great throw game and combo game are enough to be above Roy and Zelda at least.

 

[MP3]

Everyone combos big characters well(except Roy and Bowser LUL) and Ness has really poor neutral options even with DJC.
Pichu has neutral and kill options.
Mewtwo has good combo potential.
Roy has a neutral and some Marth-esque stuff with grab.
Zelda has kill power and throw mixups.
Ness has ?????????

What does Ness excel at that really pushes him above these characters?

yoyo glitch? also great djc (better than yoshis in terms of mixups imo not considering yoshi super armor from double jump), basically gives me free chances to react by changing my momentum with djc ariels (i like bair and dair alot)

 

[LobotomyPop :^)]

Debatably just above Zelda, in my opinion.

 

[1000g2g3g4g800999]

Ness's can auto-cancel dair and still hit crouching Puff with it. The move's also ridiculously strong knockback-wise, and has deceptive range and duration (aiding in edgeguard potential and fastfall timing mixups to deal with hitboxes trying to catch Ness coming down). Imagine Falcon's dair. Now imagine Falcon not needing to commit to a direction while using it so that it will still hit the opponent in any given scenario (thank you DJC), and it being safe on shield (if performed decently). That is Ness's dair, not even kidding.

Other forward/uptilts might do the same job better, but Ness's are serviceable nonetheless. Active frames are pretty decent tho.

PK Thunder can't be beaten out with other moves, so the opponent has no way to challenge it coming down. If you can manipulate it well enough, it's not an illegitimate juggle.

Dash attack is extremely disjointed even if strength and reliability isn't the greatest, it can still combo.

Fair is a disjointed multi-hit, drift well with it in a short hop and it's actually quite good. There's other, similar bairs that are stronger, but you can combo into it without leaving the opponent a chance to retaliate pretty easily. Nair is a good "get off me" move, all things considered. And then upair is a good, strong juggle, especially combined with DJC. It's also a pretty decent KO option, with bair.

Usmash and dsmash might not be the strongest moves in the world, but the hitboxes are huge and they come out fast. It's actually decent zoning potential, and the charge can clank with other moves (in a way that will amost certainly be favorable for Ness). Ness's wavedash is actually good, and combined with the ability to whiff punish ground level approaches with dair (DJC sometimes advised) into a juggle for decent percent, and a huge up-smash that can reliably beat out those same approaches and keep the opponent far off on hit after really just one of those combos, and Ness is a competent character on stage, all things considered.

 

[Hukster]

Ness's can auto-cancel dair and still hit crouching Puff with it. The move's also ridiculously strong knockback-wise, and has deceptive range and duration (aiding in edgeguard potential and fastfall timing mixups to deal with hitboxes trying to catch Ness coming down). Imagine Falcon's dair. Now imagine Falcon not needing to commit to a direction while using it so that it will still hit the opponent in any given scenario (thank you DJC), and it being safe on shield (if performed decently). That is Ness's dair, not even kidding.

Other forward/uptilts might do the same job better, but Ness's are serviceable nonetheless. Active frames are pretty decent tho.

PK Thunder can't be beaten out with other moves, so the opponent has no way to challenge it coming down. If you can manipulate it well enough, it's not an illegitimate juggle.

Dash attack is extremely disjointed even if strength and reliability isn't the greatest, it can still combo.

Fair is a disjointed multi-hit, drift well with it in a short hop and it's actually quite good. There's other, similar bairs that are stronger, but you can combo into it without leaving the opponent a chance to retaliate pretty easily. Nair is a good "get off me" move, all things considered. And then upair is a good, strong juggle, especially combined with DJC. It's also a pretty decent KO option, with bair.

Usmash and dsmash might not be the strongest moves in the world, but the hitboxes are huge and they come out fast. It's actually decent zoning potential, and the charge can clank with other moves (in a way that will amost certainly be favorable for Ness). Ness's wavedash is actually good, and combined with the ability to whiff punish ground level approaches with dair (DJC sometimes advised) into a juggle for decent percent, and a huge up-smash that can reliably beat out those same approaches and keep the opponent far off on hit after really just one of those combos, and Ness is a competent character on stage, all things considered.

Just going to point this out with FAir, yes FAir has nice disjoint which does help a lot, but one major shortcoming with FAir is the fact that if you trade with FAir, you're always getting the short end of the stick because you give next to no damage. So like good and all, but not as good as it could be.

 

[Plunder]

At high levels of play Fair shouldn't be used aggressively. I't a great zoning tool but it has to pretty much be used defensively or preemptively as the numbers guy was saying. I.e. dashing in TJ up C-stick Fair drift back or Fair drift in drift out both using SH AC frames for 4 frame land lag. Ic can be CC'ed easily if used wrong but used right it can beat out any approach with correct timing.

Also big question -

Something that I noticed while in the ground analysis thread and the Wiki, they seem to have his run/dash speed wrong (or I am crazy) it's marked as slower initially and his run/dash speed is marked as the same as Kirby. Visually I know this felt wrong. So I tested it and he has a faster initial dash than Falco and a run speed as fast as the Marios. What gives, am I missing something obvious?


btw I think Ness could be a bit higher, he has a ground move and an aerial that kill even a character Samus early (both also safe on shield with correct spacing and timing). Plus he has a Dair and Uair that can combo floaties and heavy floaties like Samus and Peach reliably. His real potential is in his movement though, it's risky but he can essentially dash dance in the air. Being able to change direction in the air quickly allows him a lot of legitimate mix ups and mind games - not being predictable is a huge part of Melee neutral. I also really agree about his Up B being a real problem for floaties, quite hard for them to deal with sometimes.

 

[EmptyNess]

imo ness is better than zelda and roy but worse than m2 and g&w

this could change over time for better or worse proportionately to how well these characters do

 

[ChivalRuse]

Everyone combos big characters well(except Roy and Bowser LUL) and Ness has really poor neutral options even with DJC.
Pichu has neutral and kill options.
Mewtwo has good combo potential.
Roy has a neutral and some Marth-esque stuff with grab.
Zelda has kill power and throw mixups.
Ness has ?????????

What does Ness excel at that really pushes him above these characters?

Ness has better range and consistently better throw options than Pichu. But Pichu having a better recovery, faster jump squat, better falling speed and weight for neutral, and smaller profile make him overall a better character than Ness imo.

I would agree with your list except that I would place Ness higher than Zelda simply because his movement is significantly better than hers. And her grab is way too slow. Her options in neutral are too telegraphed (read: lightning kick incoming). So even though Zelda's recovery is a lot better, Ness I think is stronger.

I would also place Zelda and Ness over Roy (bad aerials, bad recovery, combo food).

Therefore, Ness gets 5th worst spot over Zelda, Roy, Kirby, and Bowser.

 

[CAUP]

Pichu can also reaction tech chase and chain grab spacies. Ness is not better than pichu.

 

[GrimmFan]

He is definitely better than Kirby, Zelda, browser, and pichu. I would place him in low C teir- high D teir. Overall really underrted character.

 

[CAUP]

Why though? And how? How could you possibly justify that?

 

[Crooked Crow]

He is definitely better than Kirby, Zelda, browser, and pichu. I would place him in low C teir- high D teir. Overall really underrted character.

Join date: Sunday.

Alrighty then, haha.

 

[ChivalRuse]

You shouldn't make statements about how good a character is or their tools are when you don't have enough understanding of how to measure such things.

 

[Plunder]

If you guys really don't respect his opinion then why are you taking the time to post about it? A bit silly...

I agree with him Ness is definitely better than browser....but that depends on which browser were talking about here.
Is it Internet Explorer? Chrome? FIrefox maybe?

Zelda and Bow Bow are a no brainer, ofc Ness is better

Kirby is a bit more weird since he has some very interesting things against Sheik, Marth, and Puff. But he gets rocked by Spacies.
But the fence of pain, grab range, and the Dtilt crouch + other fast normals are not a joke

Pichu I would 100% agree should be below Ness for so many obvious reasons.

- Yes Pichu is fast.....ummm has like 2 useable moves; oh wait, have fun Killing Samus or Peach with a fully staled strong Nair doing 6-7%. Gamestop trades all day baby, stuff of nightmares. Better hope for a lucky Up-smash kiddos.
- Pichu is a delicious combo weight and fall speed, Ness is almost twice as heavy and falls slow enough to escape a lot of combos by air dodge or Nair (ones that are believed to be guaranteed but aren't, stop trying to dbl jump out ppl)
- Pichu has the some of the WORST tech rolls and get up rolls in the game, most are literally half or less than half the distance of most characters. Again easy to combo in the air and on any surface, Falco against Pichu is 100-0.
- Ness can actually zone with aerials and has tricky movement as well as a far better WD plus his DJC allows unique punish ability OoS
- can CC to much higher percents
- his moves have far better priority and KB allowing trade-less early edge guards
- Ness actually has combos and confirms on heavy floaty characters because of his Dair, weak Fair, and Uair (Bair kills even Samus early)
- Ness has throws that are usuable on most weights and fall speeds, his Fthrow has incredible starting KB, Bthrow kills very early, Up and Dthrow have follows ups on many weight classes (latter being DI dependent).
- Ness's Up B recovery is quite bad but really if his dbl jump is saved, a Ness can survive much longer than a Pichu will off stage. his air dodge is generous, his weight stops high KB at early percent and his ledge grab distance is comparable to the Marios. Compare high level footage of Ness and Pichu and without a doubt Ness players live longer off stage, and to higher percents overall.

 

[ChivalRuse]

We condemned his lack of providing reasons. This stems from lacking knowledge.

Pichu I would 100% agree should be below Ness for so many obvious reasons.

- Yes Pichu is fast.....ummm has like 2 useable moves; oh wait, have fun Killing Samus or Peach with a fully staled strong Nair doing 6-7%. Gamestop trades all day baby, stuff of nightmares. Better hope for a lucky Up-smash kiddos.

Good grab range. Uthrow and dthrow both deal 10% unstaled. Uair cannot be cc'd past 34%, and it can never be ASDI'd down, which is very important vs Peach and Samus. Bair hits at a Sakurai angle and is hard to cc punish if you drift with it. Utilt's insane forward reach makes it good for shield pressuring and also comboing into into itself, grab, upsmash and uair/nair. D-tilt is a useful poke with good frame data (same frame data as Pikachu's d-tilt).

Having trouble with kills only really happens on Dreamland. But Ness doesn't have a much better time against Peach or Samus there either. Pichu is so much better against Puff than Ness is, it's not even funny. You can get gimped at 0% by Puff bthrow into multiple bairs as Ness. Pichu cannot.

Pichu I would 100% agree should be below Ness for so many obvious reasons.

- Pichu is a delicious combo weight and fall speed, Ness is almost twice as heavy and falls slow enough to escape a lot of combos by air dodge or Nair (ones that are believed to be guaranteed but aren't, stop trying to dbl jump out ppl)

Because he's small, it's still not easy to combo him. A lot of combos that would easily convert on, say, Marth, will not on Pichu because his hurtbox is simply hard to precisely reach. His small hurtbox also makes it more reliable to SDI hits.

- Pichu has the some of the WORST tech rolls and get up rolls in the game, most are literally half or less than half the distance of most characters. Again easy to combo in the air and on any surface, Falco against Pichu is 100-0.

Pichu has the fastest tech in place in the game, with only 2 vulnerable frames. He also has an extremely long and fast roll (both forward and back roll). Yes, his wakeup roll and tech rolls are hot garbage. But luckily his weight makes him fairly hard to knock down.

- Ness can actually zone with aerials and has tricky movement as well as a far better WD plus his DJC allows unique punish ability OoS
- can CC to much higher percents
- his moves have far better priority and KB allowing trade-less early edge guards
- Ness actually has combos and confirms on heavy floaty characters because of his Dair, weak Fair, and Uair (Bair kills even Samus early)
- Ness has throws that are usuable on most weights and fall speeds, his Fthrow has incredible starting KB, Bthrow kills very early, Up and Dthrow have follows ups on many weight classes (latter being DI dependent).

Pichu's wavedash length is comparable with Ness's, and is also 1 frame quicker because he has a faster jumpsquat. Double jump cancels are cool and all, but Pichu's weight and falling speed combined with his air speed allow him to rush quickly with SHFFL'd aerials and also his full jump is viable for varying angles of approach. For example, falling with full jump uair and bair are good options that can be both safe on shield and against crouch cancel frequently.

Yes Ness can CC slightly longer, but his options out of CC are poor (not that Pichu's are good either). Ness has slow smash attacks and a short range grab. This forces Ness to resort to subpar options out of CC like drift forward rising nair, dash attack (itself super cc'able) and running JC grab, which require much more precision than spamming down on the c-stick (a la mode of Samus or Doctor Mario).

Ness has a better combo game because of dair (and his uair does more damage and is easier to chain because of DJC), and fair linking nicely into grab oftentimes. Still, Pichu can frequently combo utilt, uair or upsmash into weak or strong nairs to mix up DI and carry the opponent offstage.

Ness has a kill throw, but aside from that, his grab options are not better than Pichu's. Pichu uthrow and d-throw deal 10%, and uthrow notably combos into nair on 80% of the cast for a very large range of percents. When it stops comboing into nair, it still leads to uair juggles into possible down-b for more damage. Pichu's bthrow is also just as good as Ness's fthrow for getting the opponent offstage, and Pichu is leagues better at offstage edgeguarding. Having the ability to do invincible ledgehop nair for edgeguards is also enormous. And the fact that his fsmash hits below the stage so it will never trade with tangible up-bs from below.

- Ness's Up B recovery is quite bad but really if his dbl jump is saved, a Ness can survive much longer than a Pichu will off stage. his air dodge is generous, his weight stops high KB at early percent and his ledge grab distance is comparable to the Marios. Compare high level footage of Ness and Pichu and without a doubt Ness players live longer off stage, and to higher percents overall.

Sure, Ness is heavier and "survives" more hits, but horizontal hits basically kill Ness earlier because his recovery is so exploitable. Even if you don't kill him at low percents, getting him offstage in a position where he can't really double jump back because of the threat of a ledgehop invincible aerial means he will take a ton of damage recovering to the stage, if you don't directly kill him by knocking him away during his up-b startup. Whereas Pichu is insanely hard to gimp and will generally recover to the stage scot-free when Ness has practically no chance.

Lastly, Pichu has a great shield, so you can hardly ever shield poke him. And he has a good shield grab and a good 6-frame nair out of shield. Comparatively, Ness has a 9-frame nair oos, his fastest non-grab oos option.

 

[CAUP]

I agree that Pichu is better than Ness but I think some of the reasons you cited were pretty silly.

-I mean Pichu's grab range is better than Ness's grab range? But it is still horrible
-Pichu is really easy to combo and rack percent on. Yeah the small size helps with not getting hit but it doesn't actually help with getting comboed. But I mean Ness also gets wrecked in combos so it evens out.
-Pichu's tech in place is good but it doesn't make his tech options good. Pichu's tech roles are so bad a lot of characters can just cover tech in place not on reaction and still cover Pichu's roles.

In my opinion why Pichu has to be placed higher than Ness is chaingrabs and tech chasing on fox, falco, and falcon. That alone makes him better than Ness. Pichu has the potential to always zero to death fox falcon and falco off of a grab where Ness has nothing remotely like that. The best Ness has would be his chaingrab on FD. And I mean both of them get whooped by every other top tier character. The only thing Ness has going for him is a definitely better matchup against Ice Climbers, though it is still terrible.

One reason you could think that Ness is better than Pichu is that Ness is easier to play. He is way heavier than Pichu so lives longer. And against not good players, you will recover more frequently because they don't know how to edge guard him. Also Ness's combos are way easier and rack up damage faster than Pichu's. And Pichu is so fragile you can't really almost ever agress- but Ness sort of can.

All these reasons don't hold at a high level though. Ness will just be gimped. Ness has no extended real combos. They all rely on reads and your opponent not understanding how to get out. And Ness absolutely cannot agress at all if your opponent knows what they are doing so that strength isn't real. Pichu just has the better neutral and punish. He might not in some floatier matchups but those are matchups Ness get's destroyed in anyway so the benefit is almost not real.

P.S: Also I wouldn't say Ness is better than Zelda just because Zelda does okay against Ice Cilmbers and Puff and Ness doesn't do well against anyone relevant. His best high tier matchups are probably falcon and ice climbers but he still significantly losses to both of them. Zelda also losses to every high tier but she puts up way more of a fight, at least against two.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Pichu's grab range is deceptively superb. The circle for the hitbox extends very far beyond Pichu's own character model, meaning that, relative to his own ability to make moves whiff (due to his small hurtbox), his grab does not have to be moved much to connect. Ness' dash back and grab hitbox proportions are pretty terrible on the other hand.

By definition, small characters are harder to combo. DK and Bowser and Ganon are so bulky that Falcon can easily combo both hits of nair on them. And he can also place his aerials optimally to maximize hitstun by fast falling them near the end of hitstun, because the big targets will still be hit. However, many characters do not have the luxury of using fast falls or late aerials (or precise hitboxes) on Pichu because his character model is very high (his feet don't reach down very much), which makes it easier for him to DJ out of harm's way if the opponent doesn't do a suboptimal rising aerial.

Yes, I already conceded that Pichu's defensive teching options are, on the whole, very bad. I was just stating that people do have to work harder to punish tech-in-place specifically. It's just a consolation prize really.

 

[CAUP]

I agree that Pichu's grab can be surprising in its reach but I mean you're arguing against raw numbers : P It's just horrible.

I mean by definition size is one attribute which contributes to difficulty comboing. But that's not remotely the only factor. Pichu goes through absurd amounts of hit stun and hang time which really minimizes the benefit given by its size. And I mean, okay, Pichu is hard to combo? This isn't an objective statement and I think wouldn't be agreed with by a lot of top players anyway. It's irrelevant because combos on Pichu are guaranteed whether they are hard or not (and a lot of people wouldn't say they're hard, myself included).

 

[Plunder]

Chival you're really biased here, I'm not sure if this is a Pichu phase you're going through or what since I know you've played this game a while.

Pichu's "superb" tech in place can be covered and then all other options covered by almost every character. For instance, Falco can Dair to cover the tech in place then he can Fsmash either way if a Pichu rolls instead. Every tech a Pichu has to commit to is essentially as easy as tech chasing any other character on a platform.

Pichu's WD speed and distance are not even close to Ness's and his grab range isn't "deceptively superb". His JC grab is pretty good but so is Ness's (and Ness's WD grab goes much further). Pichu's big ol floppy ears, tail, and his feet have hurtboxes, his size isn't that much of a factor for escaping combos (almost equal to Ness actually). Ness's feet and hands don't have hurtboxes like most chars giving him increased priority on everything.

Bottom line - Pichu has more unwinnable MUs than Ness, you're not always going to get an easy to combo fast faller on FD. Even Bowser, Zelda, and Kirby have combos and stuff on Fox, Falcon, Falco....who cares everyone does. Those characters aren't really the gate-keepers for tiers surprisingly. Realize you are going to have to fight Samus, Marth, Sheik, ICs, Puff, Peach, Luigi, etc. Those characters are a straight up nightmare for Pichu. The amount of inputs and dodging your going to have to do will not be sustainable in comparison. It's a tedious war of attrition, and lossy trades IMO.

 

[CAUP]

Bottom line - Pichu has more unwinnable MUs than Ness, you're not always going to get an easy to combo fast faller on FD. Even Bowser, Zelda, and Kirby have combos and stuff on Fox, Falcon, Falco....who cares everyone does. Those characters aren't really the gate-keepers for tiers surprisingly. Realize you are going to have to fight Samus, Marth, Sheik, ICs, Puff, Peach, Luigi, etc. Those characters are a straight up nightmare for Pichu. The amount of inputs and dodging your going to have to do will not be sustainable in comparison. It's a tedious war of attrition, and lossy trades IMO.

Yeah Ness may do marginally better against Samus, Marth (Pichu actually probably does better in this matchup than Ness), Sheik (I think there is an argument for Pichu having the better matchup here but whatever), ICs, Puff (Ness definitely doesn't have a better matchup than Pichu here), Peach, Luigi, ect but that is irrelevant because he still does absolutely horribly in all those matchups. The only one of those Ness sort of doesn't get totally stomped in is against ice climbers. I mean why does this matter?

And you bring up spacies and make my point for me. Yeah, basically everyone gets to wreck fast fallers on FD. Pichu is literally the only low tier character that can wreck them on any stage. His punish game really does have untapped potential in reaction tech chases and chain grabs. There's just no reason to play him because there are just better characters to play.

I think you are making the argument that Pichu does SO badly against some characters that it warrants him being lower. But Pichu just does badly against these characters- just like Ness. Yeah Ness probably has the edge but the edge is completely irrelevant as he still gets totally wrecked. Pichu has some matchups that conceivably you can do guaranteed stuff in and just lose- not get totally decimated. This elevates him from Ness who has literally no matchups in the top ten he doesn't get completely wrecked in. At least Pichu can be a bad soft counter to some characters on some stages unlike Ness who has no conceivable use.

 

[Plunder]

If that were true there would be evidence by now and more Pichu mains, but there isn't. Ness actually has priority, the ability to zone/space, and combos and kill moves on heavy floaties. I mean trying to find a legit match of a Pichu vs ICs or Samus is kind of a joke, meanwhile there are plenty of reputable Ness vs ICs/Samus matches. The same goes for pretty much every MU I mentioned.

Ness has that proof on a regional level and some small examples in higher tourneys. I'm not talking about Nihlus or Simna either even though both have helped the character the most (not to mention fun to watch on netplay).

Hungrybox's Ness destroys noobs much faster than m2k's Pichu given the same skill gap. And there are far more examples of Hungrybox's Ness holding it's own against competent players using non-fast falling characters. M2K doesn't even try his Pichu unless it's Falcon, Fox, or Falco on FD/Battlefield (even against noobs)

Mofo was probably the best retired example of what Ness could have been right now. Aki who is mostly a PM Ness player is probably the best technical and consistent Melee Ness player that could get surprising results if he went to Melee nationals.

 

[CAUP]

Alright let me address your points

If that were true there would be evidence by now and more Pichu mains, but there isn't. Ness actually has priority, the ability to zone/space, and combos and kill moves on heavy floaties. I mean trying to find a legit match of a Pichu vs ICs or Samus is kind of a joke, meanwhile there are plenty of reputable Ness vs ICs/Samus matches. The same goes for pretty much every MU I mentioned.

First off, just no, what I am saying doesn't mean there should be more Pichu mains. Roy is better than all the characters we are discussing- by saying that does that mean there should be more Roy mains? No. And there basically are literally no legitimately good Roy mains. Just like in the case of Pichu, if you want to play as Roy, you probably just play as Marth. If you want to play as Pichu, you probably just play as Pikachu or Fox. Also, some characters just have harder difficulty curves than others and take more fundamentals. Young Link is a good example. Pichu is another good example. These characters are just hard to play. That's another deterrent.

Your comment on Ness's abilities again forgets that Ness still gets almost nothing off those abilities as they are bad or useless.

I mean what are you referencing as a Ness vs. Samus matchup? Hungrybox vs Hugs at a charity tournament?? For any low tier there will be matchups it is hard to find footage off. It's hard to find footage of Roy in like almost any matchup. Does that mean he is worse than Ness? Ness is a popular low tier. He's easy and fun to play. That doesn't mean he is better than other characters better than him.

I'll just address the other points in sort of different orders.

I think I've played Hungrybox's Ness twice. One at like Tipped Off 11 or something and the second time later when he was living in Georgia. The first time I got him down to one stock and nearly won. The second time I'm pretty sure I won. My point is that his Ness honestly isn't that impressive. Also, yeah, duh, his Ness beats up noobs faster than Mew2King's Pichu. That is such a silly point : / Pichu wracks up damage in a different way than Ness, a way that is slower. That has no relevance on how good a character is. That's like saying DJ Nintendo's Bowser beats noobs faster than Axe's Young Link so Bowser is better.

And then your comments about Ness mains and stuff. I don't really get what you are trying to say. Ultimately though, I think your argument comes down to that Ness has some potential. That some people could get surprised by how high a Ness places if some secret Ness came out of the wood work. You just don't understand how bad Ness is. If me, some person with no national relevance, can do completely fine against probably the best Ness in the world currently, or at bare minimum a top three Ness, than Ness will never "surprise people" at nationals (I mean I am sure there could be a Ness who did okay and stuff, just like any low tier, but that wouldn't be very surprising, just cool). There are about three hundred players like me who all can knock out a good Ness, people around the top four hundred or so. Ness just can't deal with a lot of matchups.

And here is my final point, related to you discussing Ness mains. I mean it is hard and not really practical to solo main anyone below Mario probably. You can reach and solo main a little farther but my point is that characters below there just have too many posing matchups. They aren't viable as solo mains because there is too high a chance to run into one of your horribly losing matchups. So characters below this point are simply better for counter picks. Exploit their okay matchups. Like Young Link Jigglypuff or Ganon Ice Climbers or Zelda Ice Climbers or Pichu Falcon. The closest thing Ness has to one of these bad soft counters is Ness Ice Climbers- but he still gets completely destroyed. So no, I son't think it is a problem at all that all you really see as Pichu is against fast fallers. That makes perfect sense. And at least Pichu has a few matchups like that where it can do somewhat not absolutely horrifically.

 

[ChivalRuse]

I agree that Pichu's grab can be surprising in its reach but I mean you're arguing against raw numbers : P It's just horrible.

I mean by definition size is one attribute which contributes to difficulty comboing. But that's not remotely the only factor. Pichu goes through absurd amounts of hit stun and hang time which really minimizes the benefit given by its size. And I mean, okay, Pichu is hard to combo? This isn't an objective statement and I think wouldn't be agreed with by a lot of top players anyway. It's irrelevant because combos on Pichu are guaranteed whether they are hard or not (and a lot of people wouldn't say they're hard, myself included).

Pichu is hard to combo *optimally* because you have to more precisely account for where you place your hitboxes. Many times when you combo with aerials, where you drift to and when you fast fall impacts your ability to extend the combo or land the sweetspot of your combo enders. Because Pichu has the option to double jump out of combos (which Ness does not have by the way) he is by definition harder to juggle than Ness. Now I would agree that Pichu's weight is more comboable than Ness's, but since Ness can't combo break reliaby with anything (5 frame nair lol) he effectively gets combo'd as badly if not worse. Combos on Pichu are usually a forcing sequence as well, which makes the hits more predictable to DI and SDI. Ness's weight allows him to be combo'd by a lot more variety of moves, so it's harder to read how to DI with him.

 

[CAUP]

If you're just arguing that Pichu is harder to combo than Ness, that might be true. But it doesn't matter that much since both get heavily comboed. It's very doable to zero to death both characters. You might be right but it just doesn't seem that important to me as both characters are super doable to combo.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Yeah I agree. I'm just saying, if we're comparing apples to apples, then we might as well be nitpicky.

Also, I think that both characters have a lot of useful tools that are underexplored because people have never really taken the time to invest in low tiers.

For example, Pichu's bair is not something that has been examined extensively:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FjWMS0X1Vjc#t=1m7s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HfjUiae3UU8#t=1m44s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HfjUiae3UU8#t=0m39s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HfjUiae3UU8#t=0m41s

And in spite of the fact that you can easily SDI out of the strong hit of Pichu's fsmash, that doesn't change the fact that it's insanely disjointed below the stage:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FjWMS0X1Vjc#t=4m14s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FjWMS0X1Vjc#t=3m20s

 

[Crooked Crow]

I've been following the discussion for a few days now.

I'm starting to feel Pichu has a slight edge, by virtue of having better mobility and safer landings.

Many of Pichu's reliable moves, like Nair and UpSmash- don't damage him period, or which damage Pichu minimally, such as the 1-2% ticks from his UpB, which is more than generous, considering the distance provided.

Pichu seems to have a better disadvantage state, and an arguably superior neutral; with his mobility, better OoS options, more useful tools out of CC, and isn't Pichu's grab box bigger?

Sure, Ness has DJC shenanigans. It's not really threatening like Yoshi's, though. Ness is just designed so poorly.

He's probably the third worst character.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Pichu's up-smash out of shield alone gives him a huge threat against floaties that means they can't simply throw out unsafe dash attacks or smash attacks (e.g. Puff fsmash, Peach dash attack, Samus dash attack). You can get kills at a reasonable percent with upsmash oos on floaties (90-100%), whereas Ness b-throw is not a guaranteed kill until 120-130%. Pichu has a better recovery, better offstage edgeguard options (being able to jump way out with nair or dair to call out a Marth's side-b is super rewarding), and better LEDGE options than Ness (Pichu has a ledgedash that has actionable invincibility on par with Fox).

 

[Sempai]

I think from a TAS optimal play standpoint Ness has more potential with all his tricks and DJC tools. Also Bair.

From a realistic standpoint, Pichu has the speed and can nair in like a missile. If someone has a good movement game, I think they are going to outclass Ness 90% of the time. There are devoted Ness mains, Pichu... not so much.

Potential = Ness, Practically = Pichu.

 

[Plunder]

There never will be any good devoted Pichu mains. You can't main Pichu, which is why even the most delusional don't even try.

There are very obvious reasons for this, it's not just coincidence or some magical series of unfortunate circumstances. But I am absolutely fine with many people believing he is better than Ness. There isn't any proof that backs this up and there never will be, but hey people have their theoretical opinions.

Being only 55 units of weight (worse than even Jigglypuff) but falling quite fast AND having terrible tech AND get-up distance opens you up to hilarious down throw chain grabs and other shenanigans from a lot of the cast. There are so many combos unique to only Pichu because of his weight and falling speed, especially those that start with throws since many depend on weight. He just dies so damn fast and so easily, it's great.

 

[CAUP]

You can main Pichu just as much as you can main Ness. Both are completely infeasible as mains. I mean I've already discussed this point so I don't really see the point talking about it more.

Also "there will never be any proof" blah blah. Why? This is literally the same thing as you hypothesizing what will and will not happen in the future. No one knows. And yes, all we can do is theorize because nothing relevant has been done with either character. The best we have with Ness is a win against Gravy before he was good. The best we have for Pichu is Mew2King styling. Yeah, it kind of is necessary to theorize and look at the characters themselves. Also it makes sense we wouldn't see the potential of Pichu as exploited as much on a lower level because his potential is in reaction tech chasing which is really difficult.

And yeah, again, no one is denying that Pichu gets absolutely destroyed by a lot of characters once he gets hit.

 

[ChivalRuse]

A lot of characters are not valid to main (Game and Watch, Mewtwo). But we have seen Qerb consistently as one of the best in New Jersey. And Leffen got top 8 at Heir 3 with all Mewtwo.

Right now, our understanding of Ness and Pichu is based on the absence of a top player using those characters as a dedicated main. If somebody of, say, Iori's caliber solo mained either character, I could see him taking them to new heights they haven't seen before.

 

[Plunder]

I guess I'll see you in a year or 2 when nothing has changed and Pichu gets brought up again in the same way without any streamed matches, VoDs, or evidence still (the 'ol moving goal post syndrome). Next time I'll just immediately agree that Pichu has massive untapped potential and run.