When should a move/ability be represented on a character's moveset?

[Quillion]

Hero's addition got me thinking about this, since to me, his representation of abilities is way overdone. Normally, I appreciate seeing faithful translations of a character's canon abilities in Smash, but with Hero, instead of simply leaving less suitable ideas on the cutting room floor, they invented one of the most unintuitive character-specific gimmicks in Smash ever just to include even more moves. So I thought, "Was it really necessary to include all of those moves; were they even that iconic?"

After that, I started thinking in more general terms. When should a move even appear in a character's moveset? Most would agree that an iconic move or one that makes a character unique should be on a character, preferably one that's both iconic and unique. But to what level?

Even the way they change certain movesets between games makes me wonder. People seem to agree that Ganondorf's sword smashes were long overdue (even though I still feel alienated by them and prefer the old smashes), and a lot of people are in favor of giving Ganondorf an energy projectile, given that it has been used by several of Ganon's incarnations. That being said, people seem to applaud the decision for Zelda to lose her Light Arrow entirely despite that now being her signature weapon; no one wants it to be converted to a standard special despite Wario's Brawl F-smash being converted to his current dash attack, which represents his Shoulder Bash far better.

Then there are characters that I feel are "dumping grounds" for certain move concepts that characters could/should have but have no room for it. Dr. Mario has the Mario Tornado (spin jump) and most egregiously the Goomba Stomp that Mario could have, and Isabelle has the Fishing Rod and party popper that Villager could have. To be honest, I'd rather have multiple "dumping ground" semi-echoes for Hero than invent the RNG menu gimmick.

So what is the line between "include this move for faithfulness" and "exclude this move since it won't fit"? I'm probably being bothered by something that isn't a big deal, but I think this is a vital part of making representation higher quality instead of just quantity.

 

[Davidk92]

When that move/ability:
-improves the character's gameplay in a useful and/or interesting way.
-makes the character more fun to play.
-doesn't force out other more iconic/useful/fun moves/abilities.

If it meets those criteria, it should be used.

For example, compare Wario. He had his iconic shoulder barge at first, but then it was removed because it damaged his moveset. Then it was put back in a different spot that improved it.

I've also firmly believed that Mario's FLUDD, despite being fairly iconic, should be removed because it's gimmicky, forced and doesn't fit his overall playstyle. Though I appear to be in the minority on that front.

 

[Quillion]

When that move/ability:
-improves the character's gameplay in a useful and/or interesting way.
-makes the character more fun to play.
-doesn't force out other more iconic/useful/fun moves/abilities.

If it meets those criteria, it should be used.

Should it meet those criteria all at once, or at least one?

Either way, I doubt that Hero needed all of those different moves shoehorned in such an unintuitive way. I'd rather that he had the wackier commands as part of his non-menu specials if they were so hurting to make him "unique" (as if the MP system wasn't already).

Also, I think Ganondorf's sword forced out his elbow and kicks, which were more fun, so even that didn't work out so well for me.

I've also firmly believed that Mario's FLUDD, despite being fairly iconic, should be removed because it's gimmicky, forced and doesn't fit his overall playstyle. Though I appear to be in the minority on that front.

I've always said that, yes, FLUDD is more canonical, and it's good at edgeguarding, but no one will call it a more fun move than Mario Tornado.

That said, I think Tornado is fine as a d-air while Doc can keep the special version. But FLUDD should be replaced with Ground Pound. Something more basic that suits Mario's basicness.

 

[Davidk92]

Should it meet those criteria all at once, or at least one?

Ideally all at once, but if it can't do ALL at once, then in descending order of priority.

Either way, I doubt that Hero needed all of those different moves shoehorned in such an unintuitive way. I'd rather that he had the wackier commands as part of his non-menu specials if they were so hurting to make him "unique" (as if the MP system wasn't already).

Agreed. It's a fun novelty, but ultimately I feel better ways could be implemented. I'm not sure exactly HOW, since moves like Whack and Heal are balanced by the random nature of the Bv, but I definitely feel there has to have been an easier, more intuitive and above all more fun way to give Hero those moves.

Also, I think Ganondorf's sword forced out his elbow and kicks, which were more fun, so even that didn't work out so well for me.

Hard disagree. While I don't know the actual stats, Ganondorf's sword at least feels like it gives him more range, which suits his slow movements and makes him feel more like a powerhouse without diminishing his usefulness. I wasn't a fan of the idea of giving him his Ocarina sword, but I've taken that back and feel the inclusion is one of the best ideas thus far.

I've always said that, yes, FLUDD is more canonical, and it's good at edgeguarding, but no one will call it a more fun move than Mario Tornado.

So people say, I personally just find it gimmicky and bizarre to put on a character like Mario. He's supposed to be THE most simple and basic character in Smash, the character to pick up and play. A move like FLUDD just doesn't seem like a good choice for that kind of character.

That said, I think Tornado is fine as a d-air while Doc can keep the special version. But FLUDD should be replaced with Ground Pound. Something more basic that suits Mario's basicness.

Not sure I agree with the Ground Pound, since Bowser and Yoshi already have very similar Down Specials, but I can't deny that it's a simple, basic move and I do feel Mario needs more jumping based move (seriously, why does Dr. Mario get that Down Aerial and not Mario?). Not sure how much of an effect this would have on Mario's overall moveset, however.

 

[Quillion]

Agreed. It's a fun novelty, but ultimately I feel better ways could be implemented. I'm not sure exactly HOW, since moves like Whack and Heal are balanced by the random nature of the Bv, but I definitely feel there has to have been an easier, more intuitive and above all more fun way to give Hero those moves.

If anything, if they needed a menu, they should have made it a circular menu like Shulk's (faithfulness to Dragon Quest's menu be damned), just have Oomph, Snooze, Acceleratle, and Hatchet Man, then have it so that down-B held selects an attack while down-B tapped selects the last used one (Oomph initially).

Not sure I agree with the Ground Pound, since Bowser and Yoshi already have very similar Down Specials, but I can't deny that it's a simple, basic move and I do feel Mario needs more jumping based move (seriously, why does Dr. Mario get that Down Aerial and not Mario?). Not sure how much of an effect this would have on Mario's overall moveset, however.

To be fair there are also a ton of spinning approach moves like Mario Tornado with a few differences like Bowser and DK's up-B, ROB's side-B, and Incineroar's neutral-B. Maybe making Mario's Ground Pound the fastest but with no shockwave hitbox could work.

 

[Necro'lic]

You already know my position since we talk to each other a lot, and it's this:

1: Find a good reference for a move for a character that fits canonically
2: Figure out how to balance it for smash
3: Figure out where it will be implemented into the fighter's kit
4: If 3 is not possible to do without contradicting 2 or without contradicting general design principles for said fighter (general motif in game, aesthetic feeling, etc.), do not add it

Now some move slots should be prioritized over others, like special moves that work from canon should be added before normals that do, but even some canonical representations are more for normal moves, like Mario's Jab being his main combo in Super Mario 64, or Ness's bat being his FSmash.

 

[Deleted member]

Any iconic move can be balanced to work in smash. This is a game where where 95% of the roster is equal to Kirby lol.

 

[Slime Master]

Hero's menu was almost certainly decided on as the character's gimmick before spells were selected, rather than as a way to accommodate more spells. DQ's general director has a strong philosophy on weighing the odds in a random factor for game difficulty, so the randomization of the menu (and crits) was either a tribute to that, or a straight up requirement for the character.

I do think this is an interesting discussion though. Unfortunately, I don't really have anything new to contribute to it.