what's wrong with cloned movesets?

[Chiastic]

so what's the big deal about cloned characters? people seem to hate the fact that some players have the same move set than others.
I personally think this is awesome, for instance, i play as Falco, which is a clone of Fox, reason i play him? he jumps higher, he has a few spikes i like more than fox (down-a while in the air is my fave), and he is just plain cooler (he's an arrogant ******* hah).
another cool example is ganondorf and cpt. falcon. it would be ashame if ganondorf playstyle would be removed from the game, he has cpt falcons moveset, but is slower, stronger and heavier. i've read that people want him to have his own move set, and that they should give his old moveset to black shadow or something. its all good, no reason to just delete the moveset IMO.
anyways, i'm pro-clones, since they're slight variations of other movesets which might appeal to your play-style.
any thoughts?

p.s: sorry if this has been posted before, i'm new on these forums and i didnt seem to find a similar post.

 

[Cinder]

They lack originality...why put two characters with the same moveset when you can have two completely original movesets?

 

[Ridley22]

They are waists of character spots where you could have an original character with a fun moveset.

Edit: I know where your coming from about how the characters themselves are cool but wouldn't you like them better if they were a totally new and orgiginal character?

 

[vesperview]

Quality over quantity, nuff said.

 

[Zenigame]

They are waists of character spots where you could have an original character with a fun moveset.

No, they are additions to the roster. Obviously Original Characters > Clones, but Clones > Nothing.

 

[Ridley22]

I meant that they are a waist compared to original characters.

 

[DarkDeoxys26]

Um... they are quality. People are too focused on the looks of the attacks rather than what they actually do. Yes, it would be better for your eyes to see a new and different way of movement and style, but you should note that each character does have a different way of movement and style. The attacks they all perform have different powers, knockback, range, and speed. Just my opinion.

 

[Zenigame]

Obviously. However, original characters take a TON of time to develop, where as clones are quick, simple additions to the roster. The question isn't of a clone taking an original character's slot, the question is of clones being added on to the roster as additions.

 

[Ridley22]

Yeah i mean if they didn't have any time too make a new character I'd be happy with a clone, but come on wouldn't you want a character that was totally new than having 2 that are extremely similair.

 

[Chiastic]

actually, i play falco not because i like the toon itselft, but because i like his moveset way more than fox. and creating an entirely new moveset for all the toons would take too much time, and we'd probably see less characters and further release date (think feb 10 2009).
so i think of it like this "if you don't fully like Fox, hey, you've got falco which is tweaked version of fox"

 

[Cinder]

They've already had more time to work on Brawl than they did on Melee...and Sakurai's journal said he didn't want clones, or something to that effect *waits for SamuraiPanda to confirm statement*

 

[El_Duderino]

The fact that the game was delayed for three months is an indicator that they still did not have enough time to add everything they wanted, even with more development time than Melee had.

If characters with cloned movesets were replacements for characters with original movesets, I'd have a beef with them. The fact remains that they aren't. The clones that were in Melee were there because there was not enough time to give those characters original movesets, and making them clones was the only way to provide that extra bit of fan service. They were icing on the cake that was Melee. If Brawl is any different I'll actually be a little disappointed.

 

[Chiastic]

i guess you're right in a way. i do preffer a character (including falco) with a completely new moveset over a clone, i gues my point is after all movesets are defined, why not throw in clones with variations? i mean, i rather have falco with a cloned moveset rather than not have falco at all.

 

[Thrillhouse-vh.]

I don't have a problem with clones along the lines of Luigi or Gannondorf, but it's stuff like Pichu and Falco I have problems with.

 

[Meta_Sonic64]

@ Topic creator, what's not wrong with them? What's so good about them?

 

[Big-Cat]

They've already had more time to work on Brawl than they did on Melee...and Sakurai's journal said he didn't want clones, or something to that effect *waits for SamuraiPanda to confirm statement*

I don't recall ever reading that Sakurai hates clones. The only thing that has ever been mentioned that's even remotely similar to clones is that all returning characters will have changes to some varying degree.

I am pro-clones myself. This is because I think my most supported character will probably end up that way. I've also realized that clones also let characters be playable who would otherwise have a low chance.

Clones don't take way any space what so ever. I think it works where it's original characters first, then clones. In other words, they're additions to what could be a small roster.

 

[Meta_Sonic64]

I don't recall ever reading that Sakurai hates clones. The only thing that has ever been mentioned that's even remotely similar to clones is that all returning characters will have changes to some varying degree.

I am pro-clones myself. This is because I think my most supported character will probably end up that way. I've also realized that clones also let characters be playable who would otherwise have a low chance.

Clones don't take way any space what so ever. I think it works where it's original characters first, then clones. In other words, they're additions to what could be a small roster.

Who is your most supported character?

 

[vesperview]

Who is your most supported character?

Kumatora, whose only chance is to be a clone of Lucas.

 

[Big-Cat]

Who is your most supported character?

Kumatora

nyoro~n

 

[Chiastic]

@ Topic creator, what's not wrong with them? What's so good about them?

i think the question is a bit redundant "whats not wrong with them and whats so good about them?"
anyways, whats so good about them? tweaks movesets around that will probably fit your taste, adds a bit more gameplay and more variety to the roster, probably adding a character you really like that wouldnt get in with a completely original moveset.
the only cons about clones is that people get this false impresion that adding a clone removes the inclusion of a new character with an all new moveset.
so i guess the designers do something like this.
SSB designers define a total of 35 completely new characters with original movesets. based on that they define a few clones of characters that people like with variations of the original moveset.

 

[Kiki52]

I don't think clones or semi-clones are bad. I would like a bigger roster and I think that having a cloned character doesn't necessarily mean it takes the place of a completely original character.

I think if Ness came back, that would be good but I don't like the anti-clone idea that Sakurai has. I'd be better if both Ness and Lucas could be in the game, that would be more fun than just Lucas.

 

[Meta_Sonic64]

i think the question is a bit redundant "whats not wrong with them and whats so good about them?"
anyways, whats so good about them? tweaks movesets around that will probably fit your taste, adds a bit more gameplay and more variety to the roster, probably adding a character you really like that wouldnt get in with a completely original moveset.
the only cons about clones is that people get this false impresion that adding a clone removes the inclusion of a new character with an all new moveset.
so i guess the designers do something like this.
SSB designers define a total of 35 completely new characters with original movesets. based on that they define a few clones of characters that people like with variations of the original moveset.

How do clones in any way add variety? Unique=variety, clones=redundancy and unoriginal. I'd rather have a small amount of unique characters than to have a game with clones.

I don't think clones or semi-clones are bad. I would like a bigger roster and I think that having a cloned character doesn't necessarily mean it takes the place of a completely original character.

I think if Ness came back, that would be good but I don't like the anti-clone idea that Sakurai has. I'd be better if both Ness and Lucas could be in the game, that would be more fun than just Lucas.

Which is why people support Claus, good day!

 

[Big-Cat]

Sakurai has shown no hate towards clones. Show me a link where this is stated.

 

[Meta_Sonic64]

Sakurai has shown no hate towards clones. Show me a link where this is stated.

He's shown no hate, but he also hasn't shown anyone that is a clone.

 

[Zenigame]

He's shown no hate, but he also hasn't shown anyone that is a clone.

He hasn't shown anyone who is a Captain Falcon. Thus, by your logic, he hates Captain Falcons.

 

[Chiastic]

How do clones in any way add variety? Unique=variety, clones=redundancy and unoriginal. I'd rather have a small amount of unique characters than to have a game with clones.

what i said is that clones add a bit more gameplay and more variety to the roster.
variety to the roster = more characters to play with.
a bit more gameplay = not that big of a difference when it comes to gameplay.
capisce?

 

[Meta_Sonic64]

He hasn't shown anyone who is a Captain Falcon. Thus, by your logic, he hates Captain Falcons.

By my logic, I meant that people who were hosts of clones and some clones may get unique movesets that are up to date with their character.

what i said is that clones add a bit more gameplay and more variety to the roster.
variety to the roster = more characters to play with.
a bit more gameplay = not that big of a difference when it comes to gameplay.
capisce?

It's not really variety. It's giving you move characters with the same moves. That's not really variety, atleast not to me. Why should characters be clones when they have the capability of being a totally unique character.

 

[Big-Cat]

Clone movesets are more like a take 2 on movesets. They're not identical.

 

[Meta_Sonic64]

Clone movesets are more like a take 2 on movesets. They're not identical.

They are also not original. Just make a unique moveset, and if this thread is for having clones in Brawl, then I don't like the idea. For starters, they've had years to work on this game and are still working on it now. Why would there be clones?

 

[Chiastic]

It's not really variety. It's giving you move characters with the same moves. That's not really variety, atleast not to me. Why should characters be clones when they have the capability of being a totally unique character.

giving you more characters to chose frome is adding more variety to the roster of characters, litterally, really just think about it for a second before you even start typing... and it adds a BIT more gameplay since clones aren't exactly identical to the original characters, that means not much variety when it comes to gamePLAY.
and yeah i do preffer a character with an original moveset, i just dont mind getting a few clones with tweaks to the original moveset. and yeah clones aren't original, that's why they're called clones, its like saying "cars are automobiles". and like that other dude said, its like a take 2 from original movesets. toss in a different character model with the new values and there you go.
would you be happy if, for instance, Fox had 2 fighting styles and you would be able to pick one from the start and not have falco in the game with the variations?

 

[El_Duderino]

By my logic, I meant that people who were hosts of clones and some clones may get unique movesets that are up to date with their character.


It's not really variety. It's giving you move characters with the same moves. That's not really variety, atleast not to me. Why should characters be clones when they have the capability of being a totally unique character.

They do not have the capability of being a totally unique character. They are either clones or they aren't included. Hence, the lesser of two evils is that they should be clones.

 

[Meta_Sonic64]

giving you more characters to chose frome is adding more variety to the roster of characters, litterally, really just think about it for a second before you even start typing... and it adds a BIT more gameplay since clones aren't exactly identical to the original characters, that means not much variety when it comes to gamePLAY.
and yeah i do preffer a character with an original moveset, i just dont mind getting a few clones with tweaks to the original moveset. and yeah clones aren't original, that's why they're called clones, its like saying "cars are automobiles". and like that other dude said, its like a take 2 from original movesets. toss in a different character model with the new values and there you go.
would you be happy if, for instance, Fox had 2 fighting styles and you would be able to pick one from the start and not have falco in the game with the variations?

I still prefer unique characters, especially when they are capable of being totally different from who they were cloned from.

They do not have the capability of being a totally unique character. They are either clones or they aren't included. Hence, the lesser of two evils is that they should be clones.

Actually some of them do. They only had Melee clones due to time constraints. That doesn't appear to be the same situation with Brawl.

 

[shinhed-echi]

I don't mind clones, as long as they're done right...

Sakurai's crew got lazy when they reached Falco and Pichu... making Falco super powerful, and Pichu super weak...

I wouldn't mind if Brawl had up to 2 clones... but in Melee, almost every unlockable was a clone! It felt like a ripoff! Marth Mewtwo and G&W were the only "true" unlocked characters.

 

[Chiastic]

I still prefer unique characters, especially when they are capable of being totally different from who they were cloned from.

well yeah, i obviously rather an orignal moveset than a cloned one. i just dont mind getting a few clones tossed in just to suit your taste and get to play as a different toon.

 

[Meta_Sonic64]

well yeah, i obviously rather an orignal moveset than a cloned one. i just dont mind getting a few clones tossed in just to suit your taste and get to play as a different toon.

If they are going to be a different character, they should have a different moveset.

 

[Chiastic]

If they are going to be a different character, they should have a different moveset.

here we go again... this seems like a loop you know...

 

[Big-Cat]

I don't mind clones, as long as they're done right...

Sakurai's crew got lazy when they reached Falco and Pichu... making Falco super powerful, and Pichu super weak...

I wouldn't mind if Brawl had up to 2 clones... but in Melee, almost every unlockable was a clone! It felt like a ripoff! Marth Mewtwo and G&W were the only "true" unlocked characters.

Wasn't Falco just slightly weaker tier-wise, but easier to control?

The only clones Brawl should have are ones that follow the following conditions:

1. A clone must be from the same series. (Ganondorf)
2. A clone cannot be a wardrobe change. (Dr. Mario)

There shouldn't be too many either and be a reasonable amouny.

I think any returning clones will be Luigified at the very least: Falco, Pichu(big maybe), Young Link, and Roy(maybe). That or have their own movesets: Ganondorf, Young Link (he can go either way).

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

Problem with clones movesets.

The characters attacks and specials were made to fit THAT exact characters personality.

Cloned movesets take away from any character they are given to

Give them to someone else, and it wouldn't be THEIR personality or anything...

Souless characters in other words...

 

[Meta_Sonic64]

here we go again... this seems like a loop you know...

And it forever will

Problem with clones movesets.

The characters attacks and specials were made to fit THAT exact characters personality.

Cloned movesets take away from any character they are given to

Give them to someone else, and it wouldn't be THEIR personality or anything...

Souless characters in other words...

Exactly my point.

 

[MysticKenji]

No clones.

Luigifications.