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Whats the deal with Fox no longer being "Top Tier"?

roysrevengefgc

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roysrevengefgc
Ultimate has a large roster of 75+ characters and some are saying that Fox is no longer a contender for top tier material. I have never played smash 4 seriously and not sure what was nerfed other than his side B stopping on shield. I have been playing him since the release along side Roy as a counter pick and he still seems like a good character with a strong neutral with good kill power. How does fox compare in ultimate coming from smash 4? Has he really lost his top tier status?
 

Rhus

We're going top speed!
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A few things to keep in mind:

  • Fox is always assessed as worse than he is at first due to his complexity and speed requirement
  • Fox received quite a few direct nerfs, and a couple buffs, but this has caused the assumption that he's simply not as good as he was
  • The engine benefits Fox massively, but it's going to take time to unlock that potential fully
Low skill floor/ceiling characters will always be assessed better in the game's infancy, whereas technical characters take time to develop. I would say Fox will likely stay in mid tier in the beginning and move to high as his meta advances. Fox mains are a rare breed nowadays though, so it will probably take awhile as we simply don't have the numbers of other characters, like K Rool, Cloud, Diddy etc.
 

roysrevengefgc

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roysrevengefgc
A few things to keep in mind:

  • Fox is always assessed as worse than he is at first due to his complexity and speed requirement
  • Fox received quite a few direct nerfs, and a couple buffs, but this has caused the assumption that he's simply not as good as he was
  • The engine benefits Fox massively, but it's going to take time to unlock that potential fully
Low skill floor/ceiling characters will always be assessed better in the game's infancy, whereas technical characters take time to develop. I would say Fox will likely stay in mid tier in the beginning and move to high as his meta advances. Fox mains are a rare breed nowadays though, so it will probably take awhile as we simply don't have the numbers of other characters, like K Rool, Cloud, Diddy etc.
He reminds me of guile from SF, easy to pick up but hard to master. Thats how Fox feels to me, he has some good tools but his speed is what people struggle with to master to fully utiloze him. Fox has the potential to be one of the best if he is studied effectively. I def belive the new short hop macro benefits him greatly, i have nailed some ceiling kills from a full.hop to macro up air. I am going to be splitting my time.between him and Roy as my counter pic. Same goes for captain falcon, watching them develop will be interesting
 

Mogisthelioma

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Fox got heavily nerfed, both directly and indirectly. He now has to rely on a few key kill options rather than having almost all kill options available from the start. Fox will always be good, but we're probably looking at Brawl Fox right now. Falco is looking tight, however.
 

roysrevengefgc

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roysrevengefgc
Fox got heavily nerfed, both directly and indirectly. He now has to rely on a few key kill options rather than having almost all kill options available from the start. Fox will always be good, but we're probably looking at Brawl Fox right now. Falco is looking tight, however.
Falco is def looking like top tier material
 

Rhus

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Fox got heavily nerfed, both directly and indirectly. He now has to rely on a few key kill options rather than having almost all kill options available from the start. Fox will always be good, but we're probably looking at Brawl Fox right now. Falco is looking tight, however.
I can't think of a single indirect nerf.

Grabs were nerfed across the board, which is a benefit for a character with trash throw game and historically has had trouble beating shield.
He had one of the highest air speed buffs in the game.
His dash speed was increased
He benefits tremendously from mobility options as the "mobility" character

Some big direct buffs:
  • Shine is much better, coming out faster, with intangibility, and can shine spike once again
  • Firefox is harder to edgeguard, with a much larger hitbox and significantly higher knockback (stagespikes very easily)
  • Usmash is insanely good - now with a giant hitbox, sourspot behind him returns (entirely absent in Sm4sh), and it now sweetspots on BF platforms
  • Dtilt is pretty crazy now - disjoint that combos into everything
  • Nair was buffed again and it's probably competing with one of the best aerials in the game
Kill options weren't nerfed so I'm not sure what you're talking about. His Fsmash is a ton stronger, Usmash is way better, Dsmash is more or less unchanged, Uair still handily kills. He actually has an easier time killing now as shield is generally weaker which was Fox's principle issue before and with the air dodge changes he also is even better at vortexing opponents.

But yeah his illusion sucks now.
 

Mogisthelioma

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I can't think of a single indirect nerf.

Grabs were nerfed across the board, which is a benefit for a character with trash throw game and historically has had trouble beating shield.
He had one of the highest air speed buffs in the game.
His dash speed was increased
He benefits tremendously from mobility options as the "mobility" character

Some big direct buffs:
  • Shine is much better, coming out faster, with intangibility, and can shine spike once again
  • Firefox is harder to edgeguard, with a much larger hitbox and significantly higher knockback (stagespikes very easily)
  • Usmash is insanely good - now with a giant hitbox, sourspot behind him returns (entirely absent in Sm4sh), and it now sweetspots on BF platforms
  • Dtilt is pretty crazy now - disjoint that combos into everything
  • Nair was buffed again and it's probably competing with one of the best aerials in the game
Kill options weren't nerfed so I'm not sure what you're talking about. His Fsmash is a ton stronger, Usmash is way better, Dsmash is more or less unchanged, Uair still handily kills. He actually has an easier time killing now as shield is generally weaker which was Fox's principle issue before and with the air dodge changes he also is even better at vortexing opponents.

But yeah his illusion sucks now.
Indirect nerf: Pretty sure Sakurai said that when Fox stops on shield when he uses illusion, it was a bug or something. Unless it was a direct nerf.
 

roysrevengefgc

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roysrevengefgc
I can't think of a single indirect nerf.

Grabs were nerfed across the board, which is a benefit for a character with trash throw game and historically has had trouble beating shield.
He had one of the highest air speed buffs in the game.
His dash speed was increased
He benefits tremendously from mobility options as the "mobility" character

Some big direct buffs:
  • Shine is much better, coming out faster, with intangibility, and can shine spike once again
  • Firefox is harder to edgeguard, with a much larger hitbox and significantly higher knockback (stagespikes very easily)
  • Usmash is insanely good - now with a giant hitbox, sourspot behind him returns (entirely absent in Sm4sh), and it now sweetspots on BF platforms
  • Dtilt is pretty crazy now - disjoint that combos into everything
  • Nair was buffed again and it's probably competing with one of the best aerials in the game
Kill options weren't nerfed so I'm not sure what you're talking about. His Fsmash is a ton stronger, Usmash is way better, Dsmash is more or less unchanged, Uair still handily kills. He actually has an easier time killing now as shield is generally weaker which was Fox's principle issue before and with the air dodge changes he also is even better at vortexing opponents.

But yeah his illusion sucks now.
yeah i have been nailing those off stage shine kills pretty consistently unless its against a ganon in which i dont challenge him off stage even tho you can mash out of his side b now. Firefox does seem stronger, i get kills off the top more

Indirect nerf: Pretty sure Sakurai said that when Fox stops on shield when he uses illusion, it was a bug or something. Unless it was a direct nerf.
i dont consider that nerf because you cant walk or run through people anymore,not a huge deal or a massive nerf imo. even if it is, the buffs FARRRRRR outweigh that insignificant nerf of his side b
 

Name1201

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Nov 29, 2018
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Is it just or do people fall out of fox's dair alot more than sm4sh???

Also any tips killing with Fox with aerials being a ton more safe im sometimes stuggling getting kills ( i already know about nair to up smash and all his old sm4sh confirms )

Another thing any tips for the metaknight mu in this game its feeling like a ***** so far. Shine gimps dont work on him he is too safe to up smash out of sheild his disjoints make it tough to really do anything about him landing with or pressing buttons and he edge guards fox like hell plus he can just out of shield dair us for anything then create space really confused on this mu I feel like ive gotta out play the metakinght hard to get anything going

Finally how do ledge trumps work in this game???
 

Drvm614

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The fact they blocked characters from passing through opponents has switched the game up immensely. especially for faster characters. The game would be close to perfect with all the buffs the heavy weights have, just reimplement the pass through nintendo…
 

Wiley

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It’s just the way of fox. We need people thinking he’s not top tier. Thank everyone for their lack of understanding
 

roysrevengefgc

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I am going to keep playing fox with falcon and push the meta more, he def has more tricks up his sleeve. Just dont know what lol
 

DavemanCozy

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Fire Fox is stronger than it was in Smash4, as an offensive move it's actually received some pretty cool buffs leading to Ultimate. I've used it near the ledge to catch ledge-grabs and flown back onstage with it, to my surprise it ended up catching a Palutena and KOing at 130% off the side. I also feel like it's a lot harder to gimp Fox now, Fire Fox hitbox seems to clash with more moves. It's a welcome buff that offsets the nerf to the distance it covers.
 

L9999

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What is this thread? Fox has a lot of players scoring with him. It is clear he is top tier with all the tools he has available.
 
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DavemanCozy

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What is this thread? Fox has a lot of players scoring with him. It is clear he is top tier with all the tools he has available.
Yeah the thread was made back in December when the week 1 and week 2 tier lists started being thrown around by recognizable players. Same thing happened with Smash4 and as far as I played that game for, Fox stayed in top tier for a long while.

He's still a great character, but there's also a lot of characters that are good. I believe we'll see where he stands as more and more work is made with him and when we see the coming national placements. He's basically Smash4 Fox with some tweaks, which isn't a bad thing imo.
 
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