whats Ike's tier spot with out MK?

[Arturito_Burrito]

am i gana get flamed for making a thread ?



Well i've been wondering this for a few days now. A lot of us view match ups very differently some thinking numbers are useless but when we put numbers on them they still vary a lot.

I think bored thinks olimar is 65-35 and the falco boards said it was 60-40 right?

DDD seems to be thought by some to be 65-35


and i know niddo and yagami think he only has 55-45 match ups at worse.



So wtf? with out the 80-20 match up with mk would he be mid-high tier? Or have things changed and i haven't been paying attention?

 

[•Col•]

I think he'd be around the same place.... With MK gone, there'd be a lot more DDD's and Falco's... I couldn't see him raising any higher than a few spots.

 

[LuLLo]

He'd stay in the same place, but that depends on which characters will rise and what characters will be played more, and there are very few characters with a disadvantage or even matchup with Ike that will rise in the list.

 

[HeroMystic]

I'd agree he would stay in the same place. Perhaps 1-2 spots up since he has some legit match-ups with some of the top tier, but Falco destroys him and DDD is very hard to handle. Snake isn't exactly a walk in the park either.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

so what i'm getting at from you guys is DDD and falco will keep him down? I don't see much of a problem with falco he lasers you and chain grabs you but thats about it. On a small stage you can approach him easily.

If planking was allowed with MK gone (although theres still G&W and pit) falco wouldn't be much of a problem for ike. You could also do things mike haze style and PS lasers while approaching.


anybody think that DDD isn't a problem for ike?

 

[Albert.]

In this thread I learned that power-shielding Falco's lasers is good.

holy fvck!

 

[LuLLo]

@Arturito: I don't find DDD that hard to fight, Fairs are your friend more than ever in this match, Nair screws up shieldgrabs if spaced correctly, he is very limited and vulnerable to jabs, goes about even with us in the air I think, and is overall a big target which is easily hit and pressured, plus Ike has a decent gimping game against him (but he gimps us VERY easy......).

Falco on the other end is a horrid matchup, lasers and chaingrabs aren't the only things he got against us yo, it's jabs (which are almost as good as ours), quick tilts, phantasm which almost can't be punished, and the most gay thing: Shining when we recover with Aether from below, it's basically an infinite and there is no escape if the Falco doesn't screw up. Falco gimps Ike hard too.

 

[HeroMystic]

DDD: One screw-up and you're off the stage. Ike's margin of error is very very slim, and DDD gives heavy punishment due to chaingrab. Realistically Ike will be losing stocks much faster than DeDeDe is.

 

[san.]

What would DDD do to gimp us offstage before we can aether, and put DDD in a disadvantaged position? DDD I think is not that hard to deal with offstage to characters like marth. I think DDD is in a more advantageous position if he doesn't put himself at risk and try to gimp us.

I really cannot say what will happen after MK leaves, but I do notice a lot of our matchups that were considered pretty bad converging to 40:60 and 35:65, which are in fact pretty winnable, and some characters above us have even worse CGs or other things done on them, too.

I really have no 'real' trouble with many characters at all (I think I can go toe-to-toe with skilled players of disadvantaged matchups), and I rarely get gimped by characters other than MK. Some characters have to take a risk to gimp us, or they'll be left in an equally disadvantaged position.

Once you know just about every possibility one has at gimping Ike, it is not that hard to avoid.

 

[HeroMystic]

Ike literally has no options when he is off-stage except to focus on avoiding attacks and recovering. DDD has a plethora of options. Brushing this off is neglectful at best. I don't want to go into every minor detail here, but Ike has to play incredibly safe vs DDD to be viable at this match, and scoring a KO with DDD involves going out of your way to land something strong which will more than likely be B-air.

When you consider the options, margin of error, and character attributes of both characters then it's pretty clear that DDD wins the match-up. That does not mean it's unwinnable, but it's an uphill battle that greatly revolves around player skill.

 

[Albert.]

What would DDD do to gimp us offstage before we can aether, and put DDD in a disadvantaged position? DDD I think is not that hard to deal with offstage to characters like marth. I think DDD is in a more advantageous position if he doesn't put himself at risk and try to gimp us.

I really cannot say what will happen after MK leaves, but I do notice a lot of our matchups that were considered pretty bad converging to 40:60 and 35:65, which are in fact pretty winnable, and some characters above us have even worse CGs or other things done on them, too.

I really have no 'real' trouble with many characters at all (I think I can go toe-to-toe with skilled players of disadvantaged matchups), and I rarely get gimped by characters other than MK. Some characters have to take a risk to gimp us, or they'll be left in an equally disadvantaged position.

Once you know just about every possibility one has at gimping Ike, it is not that hard to avoid.

Yeah but DDD can force you to recover to the ledge, which obviously puts you in another bad position.

Just curious, but what are Ike's options for recovering to the stage against characters with good ledge traps?

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

If i can get away with it i usually quick draw to a platform. Being on a platform against some characters usually gives you a lot of options to get back to neutral ground.

I'm pretty sure that with out MK ddd becomes his hardest match up but falco seems fairly simple to me. His quick tilts aren't really that good forward is the most used one by dehf and thats to poke a bit and knock you away so he can camp some more. If you shield any of those tilts you get to jab him at the very least Ps any of them and you get to ftilt them all.

Only time i see uptilt being used by falcos is when your on a platform above them or when they jab > uptilt for a kill once your at 200% but i don't think it would kill ike at that percent.

Phantasm is pretty punishable depending on how big the stage is. If you stay in the middle and he uses it then you should be punishing it.

And ike edge guards falco just as bad as he edge guards ike, Once he's off the stage all his options are covered by eruption. and i think its possible to avoid his reflector for sure on something like ps1 where you can go under the stage then grab the ledge.

 

[Guilhe]

He'll be mid tier. He can take on many high tiers, but in order to be a high tier himself, he would need to have much more advantageous matchups.

 

[san.]

Ike literally has no options when he is off-stage except to focus on avoiding attacks and recovering. DDD has a plethora of options. Brushing this off is neglectful at best. I don't want to go into every minor detail here, but Ike has to play incredibly safe vs DDD to be viable at this match, and scoring a KO with DDD involves going out of your way to land something strong which will more than likely be B-air.

Well, any details can help. what can DDD do if Ike just fast falls and aether once he sees DDD fall after him? Or if he just immediately fast falls and aether but doesn't know what DDD will do?

It is pretty hard to kill DDD, but Ike doesn't need to go out of his way much more than other matchups.

 

[Albert.]

woah I'm very behind on the Ike Metagame, explain eruption edgeguarding

 

[san.]

It's pretty much just a giant frame trap with eruption near the ledge. You can time it to land right after invincibility frames end or when you think the opponent will come up. Useful sometimes, but a little risky against certain characters. I never really tried using it vs falco, because it'll be too easy to get baited and miss. I could see it happening theoretically, though.

 

[Palpi]

I think ike should rise a few spots with mk.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

woah I'm very behind on the Ike Metagame, explain eruption edgeguarding

well the way i meant it was: say you bair falco at 80% then he's most likely going to have to side b to reach the stage.

at this point if your charging eruption he only has mind games to avoid it, if he side b's then eruption out ranges his ledge grab range, he could try and for for a higher place like a platform but he would have to do it out side of eruptions range which would cause enough lag for you to react and punish him with another bair to reset the situation.

The only other thing he could do is up b hoping that you let go of eruption so that he can safely grab the ledge and if that fails he can angle it upwards once again hoping for you to release sooner but if you don't get mind gamed it only grantees his death.

Even if falco Side bs and you don't hit him because your still holding it (expecting an upb) then you can go into what san described.

idk i feel like i'm being to optimistic but i could see ike going up to top of mid or lowest of high.

 

[Albert.]

idk i feel like i'm being to optimistic but i could see ike going up to top of mid or lowest of high.

LOLLLL at that @_@

Optimistic indeed.

Ike still gets kind of ***** by Snake, Diddy, Falco, Wario, Marth, DDD, Olimar....

Taking out MK just reveals more Ike bad match-ups lol xD

That and the whole "Ike is Snake-" thing

I <3 Ike for friendlies lol

 

[Palpi]

He doesnt get ***** by snake and diddy, but he loses by a small margin. He could move up to middle of mid. Not lowest of high, that is way too far.

 

[YagamiLight]

and i know niddo and yagami think he only has 55-45 match ups at worse.

If you were to ask my for my true opinion on Ike then I would most likely tell you that I think he is pretty much mid-mid. He's got too many issues that you can't just write off to place him in high tier but he's just statistically better than the whole lot of low tiers combined. My mental tier list is a bit jumbled but I consider Ike to have about as much overall "worth" (so to speak) as Zelda / Sheik.

Anyway I don't think I ever said it was 55-45 match-ups the whole way, haha. I did on occasion (pretty sure, anyway) say that Ike's bad match-ups were sort of being overblown. At the moment Meta Knight is the flat out worst (generally accepted rating is 30-70, no?) and the other three "big bads" Olimar, Falco and King Dedede have been dropping in threat level. I think that if you put some solid effort into teching Falco's spike, learning to consistently powershield lasers and learn to avoid his kill options the match-up is 6-4 Falco's favor. Oli and D3 are 65-35 in their favor. So with Meta Knight gone Ike pretty much loses his worst match-up but he still has that same handful of bad match-ups to worry about. If I were to place Ike at say...rank #19 currently then MK being banned would just make it go up a few spots, really. #17, probably.

Have at me.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

LOLLLL at that @_@

Optimistic indeed.

Ike still gets kind of ***** by Snake, Diddy, Falco, Wario, Marth, DDD, Olimar....

Taking out MK just reveals more Ike bad match-ups lol xD

That and the whole "Ike is Snake-" thing

I <3 Ike for friendlies lol

umm no its just falco ddd and olimar, and so many ike's don't agree that those 3 are **** match ups most of them only believe 2 to be bad. The one's i see most are bored with olimar and san with DDD then the falco boards say the match up isn't that easy so wtf?

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=259481

 

[theeboredone]

umm no its just falco ddd and olimar, and so many ike's don't agree that those 3 are **** match ups most of them only believe 2 to be bad. The one's i see most are bored with olimar and san with DDD then the falco boards say the match up isn't that easy so wtf?

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=259481

If Falco decides to play super gay, then Ike has to do a lot more reading and predicting to win.
If DDD plays super gay, Ike has to do a lot more reading and predicting to win.
If Snake plays super gay....

See what I'm getting at?

Most players don't play up to their potential until it counts most. Tournaments should be the standard for stuff like this, not friendlies, where even unconsciously, people mess around.

With that being said, Ike probably needs the most in terms of reading and reacting in comparison to the current higher tier characters. On top of that, a lot of characters can play him super gay if they wanted.

Falco, Marth, DDD, Olimar, Lucario, Snake, G&W (we can gay back), Fox, Samus, and Yoshi.

However, people don't do that, because it's simply boring and tasking to do so.

Ike...in a world without MK would be...one spot above his current standings.

 

[Teh Brettster]

Bored's post is a pretty truthful one. I think we'd go a little higher, but not much. We'd be low-mid tier instead of low tier.

Oh and for those thinking it's easy to recover against D3-- keep in mind he falls even faster than we do. So if we fast fall past him, he can fast fall and Bair to interrupt. Then we're in an unrecoverable position (sometimes) and he can use his several jumps and upB to get back. It's not impossible to recover against D3. It's just difficult, and you can't let D3 predict exactly what you're going to do.

 

[KickKickFlip]

Can someone explain phantasm? Or link me to it?

 

[•Col•]

Can someone explain phantasm? Or link me to it?

..........

 

[KickKickFlip]

Ok ill go look at the falco boards...

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

It's side b dude, and if people are playing gay then you could plank olimar and falco i'd do it if it was allowed and it is here in texas or at least hobos. same with fox no?

Playing gay imo would only make 3 of those match ups easier.

If lucario where that bad why would lee go MK against ike instead of just playing gay from then on?

I can see the other characters being bad but do you really think they are bad as MK?

 

[benaji261!]

MK's removal would be a relief on not only Ike, but tons of other characters get their relief too, meaning more practice on MUs and focus with them. Ike would still be in a pickle though since all other chars have the same relief, so he won't go up high at all.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

and i know niddo and yagami think he only has 55-45 match ups at worse.

Oh heck no.

The only MU I believe is easier than most people think on this board is Diddy Kong. I still say 45-55...

D3 is 35-65, that ain't changing.

Falco is 3-7, stupid annoying bird.

Olimar is who knows, I'd have to see what the Olimar boards think of it to draw a good conclusion.

And I still think ZSS is 35-65. >_<

 

[Dark 3nergy]

Ok ill go look at the falco boards...

its either called Falco Illusion or Phantasm. It can be canceled into 2 different ways[mind game purposes]. Ones a mid way cancel where falco travels alittle over half of what a normal phantasm does. The other is a short cancel, where Falco travels alittle bit forward. Its a lower priority move so you can hit him out of it or grab him. What you dont want is to be hit by its hit box when your off stage because its hit box sends you down wards. Its like Falcos second weaker spike. This spells bad news for Ike.

The other dumb thing about Phantasm is that when on the platforms, Falco can very easily reset situations where if you come close to him while hes blastering/camping, he can easily escape through you using phantasm to get to another section of the stage and reset the whole camping/blastering situation. This can be very frustrating to deal with on Ike and even on DDD its challenging.