What would you like to see changed to Doc to make him viable?

Gidy

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#1
I really like using Doc in this game. I like him more than Mario, but I use Mario for winning. My question is, what do you think Doc needs done to him for him to be at least low high tier?

In my case, I'm trying to keep the original character design of Doc in mind, which is a slower but hard hitting Mario. My list of buffs for him and reasoning is:

Give Doc more aerial mobility so it's slightly worse than Mario's - In Melee Doc may have had a slow running speed but he had really good aerial mobility and wave dashing helped his problem for slow running speed. Without wavedashing being a thing, I think at least having good aerial mobility would help him move up in the tier lists.

Make Uair hitbox more like Melee's - This move was excellent for combo's but now since they copy pasted Mario's uair to doc while leaving Uair with the same physics as it has in melee it's not all that good now sadly. It's kind of like a sub-par captain falcon Uair. I think if it had a bigger horizontal hitbox it could help him with combos more, especially if his aerial mobility gets buffed.

Stronger Nair - His Nair is much worse in this game then it was in Melee. Off the top of my head, I think it does 8 percent long lasting and 6 percent off the back where as in Melee it did 10 off the back and 14 long lasting, plus it killed. At least buff the damage on it and I think it would be much better. I find myself getting punished for using it.

Up B Kill % - Up B is one of the good things they gave to Doc. It has a huge starting hitbox and can kill OOS pretty reliably. However I think it killing 10 percent earlier would make it even more devastating and much more reliable as a kill move since all of his other moves with the except of Fsmash don't kill early.

SLIGHTLY More Dthrow hitstun - At higher percents it becomes harder to chase people after dthrow and most of the time people can just jump out. It's really upsetting when we have a character like Luigi who's dthrow sends them about the same height but has hitstun for days.

With all of these changes, I think Doc would become a bigger threat and looking at a broader POV, help differentiate him from being a worse Mario because that's what he is at this point.

(also i miss melee dtilt and utilt :c)
 
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#2
I already posted most of these changes I would like to see in the "Hypothetical way's we can buff the Doc" thread, so might as well post the fully updated list here. I can see some of these changes happening, but others will probably never cross their mind:

  • Jab 1: Base Dmg 2.8 < 3.5
  • Jab 2: Base Dmg 1.68 < 2.48
  • Fsmash (All Angles): Add Super Armor on frames 7-15
  • Usmash: Head Invincibility frames 9-12 < 6-12
  • Usmash: Adjust hitboxes in front of Dr. Mario's head on frames 9-12. (Removes the blind spot in front of Doc's head so the move can connect better) PATCHED!
  • Dsmash (1st Hit): Base Dmg 11.2 < 12.36
  • Dsmash (2nd Hit): Base Dmg 13.44 < 14.2
  • Bthrow: Base Knockback 70 < 85
  • Bthrow: Knockback Growth 60 < 75
  • Fair: Landing Lag Decreased 28 < 17
  • Fair: Replaces sour spot hit-boxes with new sweet spot hit-boxes.
  • Dair: Landing Lag Decreased 21 < 13
  • Dair: Gains a meteor effect similar to Kirby's on frames 27 (5th hit)
  • Megavitamins: Base Dmg 5.6 < 7.1 (Vitamins don't reduce in damage if hit on frames 21-69)
  • Super Sheet (Ground): Keeps momentum from previous walk or dash movement on frames 1-6, then slows down on frames 7-12
  • Super Sheet (Air): Gains an added increase of momentum of 1.430 on frame 7 (This should help with Doc's approach options & recovery) Example.
  • Super Jump Punch: Add Super Armor on frames 3-5
  • Super Jump Punch: Keeps momentum from jump until frame 28. (Similar to Roy's up special)
  • Dr. Tornado: Base Dmg 8.5 < 10 (Pre-1.04 patch)
  • Dr. Tornado (Aerial): Increase vertical height on frame 40 (Also should help with recovery)
  • Dash Speed: Increase 1.312 < 1.430
  • Weight: Increase 98 < 104
I'm normally not one for tiers, but if all of these changes were to go to Doc, he could make A tier.
 
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#3
One of following would be fine for me:
A.) Slight speed increase. It doesn't have to be much, but even the slightest speed buff would help. Speed and mobility is what separates the tiers in this game.
B.) Can't increase his speed? Then make him more powerful. Don't get me wrong, Doc is strong, but his power does not justify his lack of jump height and speed. If he's going to be that slow, he needs to be as strong as the heavyweights.
C.) Make him heavier. Why does Doc weigh as much as Mario yet moves so much slower and how no height on his jumps? If Doc weighed more, it'd be more difficult to KO him. Look at Yoshi and Roy, they weigh more than Doc, move much faster -and- and can deal tons of damage. Ever hear of balancing, Sakurai?
D.) FIX HIS UP SMASH! Seriously, his uSmash wasn't that great before, but after that one patch, it's horrible. Why, Sakurai.... why did you ruin Doc's uSmash? Just change it back and let's forget this ever happened.

I really like Doc the way he is, but just doing one of the above would be fantastic and would make Doc a more viable option. I don't expect anything to be changed, at least nothing substantial, but he truly is the character most needing some buffs/changes.




I already posted most of these changes I would like to see in the "Hypothetical way's we can buff the Doc" thread, so might as well post the fully updated list here. I can see some of these changes happening, but others will probably never cross their mind:
  • Jab 1: Base Dmg 2.8 < 3.5

  • Jab 2: Base Dmg 1.68 < 2.48

  • Fsmash (All Angles): Add Super Armor on frames 7-15

  • Usmash: Head Invincibility frames 9-12 < 6-12

  • Usmash: Adjust hitboxes in front of Dr. Mario's head on frames 9-12. (Removes the blind spot in front of Doc's head so the move can connect better)

  • Dsmash (1st Hit): Base Dmg 11.2 < 12.36

  • Dsmash (2nd Hit): Base Dmg 13.44 < 14.2

  • Bthrow: Base Knockback 70 < 85

  • Bthrow: Knockback Growth 60 < 75

  • Fair: Landing Lag Decreased 28 < 17

  • Fair: Replaces sour spot hit-boxes with new sweet spot hit-boxes.

  • Dair: Landing Lag Decreased 21 < 13

  • Dair: Gains a meteor effect similar to Kirby's on frames 27 (5th hit)

  • Megavitamins: Base Dmg 5.6 < 7.1 (Vitamins don't reduce in damage if hit on frames 21-69)

  • Super Sheet (Ground): Keeps momentum from previous walk or dash movement on frames 1-6, then slows down on frames 7-12

  • Super Sheet (Air): Gains an added increase of momentum of 1.430 on frame 7 (This should help with Doc's approach options & recovery) Example.

  • Super Jump Punch: Add Super Armor on frames 3-5

  • Super Jump Punch: Keeps momentum from jump until frame 28. (Similar to Roy's up special)

  • Dr. Tornado: Base Dmg 8.5 < 10 (Pre-1.04 patch)

  • Dr. Tornado (Aerial): Increase vertical height on frame 40 (Also should help with recovery)

  • Dash Speed: Increase 1.312 < 1.430

  • Weight: Increase 98 < 104
I'm normally not one for tiers, but if all of these changes were to go to Doc, he could make A tier.
I can't even begin to explain how awesome this would be. Doc would be OP if even half of these changes were made, but wow..... he'd be fun to play. I really like the idea of giving him some sort of Super Armor. I can't imagine Sakurai doing this now, but if Game & Watch can have Super Armor on his uSmash, why can't Doc have it in some way? Also, I've been wishing he had a spike mechanic on his Dair (like Kirby, Falco and Luigi) for a long time. I think he's the only character with the drillbit Dair that doesn't spike in some way.
 
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Routa

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#4
I think he's the only character with the drillbit Dair that doesn't spike in some way.
Wa?

But if you ask me the lack of ground speed is acceptable 'cause after all he is a Doctor. If you ask me, his power should be increased. I mean he has PhD in Smashing after all... But... Decrease knockback of his Uair, Jab, D-throw, U-throw and D-tilt (=improve combo game a little).
 
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#6
Doc? Low Tier? Sorry i dont think so. He is viable at torns, the only real problem about Doc is his recovery being poor and easy to gimp, but you can always mix up with the tornado ---> DJ ----> Up-B, but it's still a big problem, his bair is better than mario's, uair's angle links to a grab or a miss tech pill lock oportunite, he has a lot of kill combos on a lot of the character, one of then being sheik \o> If possible i just wish for a Up-B buff rly, his speed is k for his playstyle.
 

Routa

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#7
Compare Doc, Luigi, Falco and Kirby's Dair attacks. They look identical, but only Doc's does not have a spike mechanic.
Wa = Wario

Wario's Dair also lacks spiking property. Also not having a spike does not mean he isn't viable. Well Ike has a spike, but he never uses it. Why? It sucks and he does not need it.

Doc? Low Tier? Sorry i dont think so. He is viable at torns, the only real problem about Doc is his recovery being poor and easy to gimp, but you can always mix up with the tornado ---> DJ ----> Up-B, but it's still a big problem, his bair is better than mario's, uair's angle links to a grab or a miss tech pill lock oportunite, he has a lot of kill combos on a lot of the character, one of then being sheik \o> If possible i just wish for a Up-B buff rly, his speed is k for his playstyle.
Let's see what a common high tier character has:
Good grab game
Good combo game
Good punish game
Good recovery
Good kill options
Etc.
Let's see what Doc has:
Good grab game? Meh
Good combo game? He he hee... No.
Good punish game? Meh
Good punish game? He he hee... No.
Good recovery? Oh please...
Good kill option? Well that is the only thing he has.

There will be alway a bottom tier character in each game and atm in Sm4sh Doc is bottom tier.
 
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#8
Wa = Wario

Wario's Dair also lacks spiking property. Also not having a spike does not mean he isn't viable. Well Ike has a spike, but he never uses it. Why? It sucks and he does not need it.


Let's see what a common high tier character has:
Good grab game
Good combo game
Good punish game
Good recovery
Good kill options
Etc.
Let's see what Doc has:
Good grab game? Meh
Good combo game? He he hee... No.
Good punish game? Meh
Good punish game? He he hee... No.
Good recovery? Oh please...
Good kill option? Well that is the only thing he has.

There will be alway a bottom tier character in each game and atm in Sm4sh Doc is bottom tier.
Smooth....

How many threads do we need asking whether Doc needs a buff or not or whether he's good or not?
 

Gidy

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#9
It's obvious he's bad. I was thinking that Mario having a spiking dair would be good for aerial follow ups if it lands similar to falcos.
 
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#10
It's really not. It's obvious that he's not the best in the game, but I wouldn't go as far as to place him in bottom tier. I can't really place him as a low tier character either; mid-tier, but has some obvious flaws. Whatever your opinion on Doc is, there's already a thread where you can put your suggestions for buffs or adjustments.

Here you go: http://smashboards.com/threads/hypothetical-ways-we-can-buff-the-doc.397197/

I don't see why he needs a spike tbh. I think he's based on horizontal kills, so adding more knockback to those moves and adjusting down-throw so that it combos better into those moves would be better.
 
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#11
Wa = Wario

Wario's Dair also lacks spiking property. Also not having a spike does not mean he isn't viable. Well Ike has a spike, but he never uses it. Why? It sucks and he does not need it.
I know, a lot of characters don't have a spiking effect on their Dair. I was comparing characters with a visually similar Dair. Wario's Dair is not even remotely close to being visually similar to Doc, Luigi, Kirby and Falco.
 
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#12
Wa = Wario

Wario's Dair also lacks spiking property. Also not having a spike does not mean he isn't viable. Well Ike has a spike, but he never uses it. Why? It sucks and he does not need it.


Let's see what a common high tier character has:
Good grab game
Good combo game
Good punish game
Good recovery
Good kill options
Etc.
Let's see what Doc has:
Good grab game? Meh
Good combo game? He he hee... No.
Good punish game? Meh
Good punish game? He he hee... No.
Good recovery? Oh please...
Good kill option? Well that is the only thing he has.

There will be alway a bottom tier character in each game and atm in Sm4sh Doc is bottom tier.
Errm, Doc does have a good combo game, good punish game and good kill option. Have you ever picked Doc, like srly? The only thing that he lacks is recovery. *face palm*
 
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#13
Btw, Ness doesnt even have a good neutral game, or recovery and he is good. ZzZzZz
People that says Doc is bad, never played or studied him or is just comparing him and trying to play like Mario.
 
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#14
Errm, Doc does have a good combo game, good punish game and good kill option. Have you ever picked Doc, like srly? The only thing that he lacks is recovery. *face palm*
In reality, Doc's recovery isn't actually that bad. If you know how to properly utilize Dr. Tornado, it's not a problem. I can actually recover much better with Doc than Mario. I'd say Doc's "bad recovery" is vastly overrated.
 
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#15
In reality, Doc's recovery isn't actually that bad. If you know how to properly utilize Dr. Tornado, it's not a problem. I can actually recover much better with Doc than Mario. I'd say Doc's "bad recovery" is vastly overrated.
With bad i mean easy to gimp, using Tornado ---> DJ ---> Up-B really makes it a decent one, but it's easy to gimp. While using the tornado you can think about what you will do next with your DJ and UpB, it's great, but you have to make the right decision. Almost like Ness's Pkt options.
 
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#16
Down and up tilts have less knockback.
Down smash sends people diagonally upwards on the front hit and semi-spikes like normal on the back hit, and does 15% uncharged on the front, 19% fully charged, and 17% uncharged on the back and 21% fully charged.
Change up smash back to how it was pre-1.0.8.
Significantly increase the knockback on late neutral air, and increase the damage to 10%.
Remove the sourspot on forward air and give it a more vertical trajector like in Melee.
Decrease the ending lag on up air.
Decrease the starting lag on down air and restore the damage and number of hits to how it was when the game came out.
Increase Megavitamins' damage to 7% no matter what.
Make it so that the first two Super Sheets give Doc some lift.
Make Dr. Tornado go higher, move faster, startup faster, and do 12% instead of 8%. Decrease the ending lag as well.
Increase Super Jump Punch's height.
Increase Doc's grab range since he gets less off of his grabs than Mario does.
Slightly decrease down throw's knockback
Increase back throw's knockback and give it a more horizontal trajectory.
And last but not least, increase his weight and run speed.
I think that would bring him up to speed with everyone else, don't you agree?
 

Routa

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#17
Errm, Doc does have a good combo game, good punish game and good kill option. Have you ever picked Doc, like srly? The only thing that he lacks is recovery. *face palm*
I'm saying that as a Ex-Doc main. He deals way too much damage to combo things together. He is way too slow punish things well. I mean yeah Ganondorf has the same problem... BUT he has range witch Doc lacts. Yes he does have good KO moves, but they aren't very safe. He has 2 "safe" KO moves: Bair and D-smash. Yes his Up-b is kinda safe, but landing it against spacing character is hard.
Doc's recovery is ok, but when you compare it to other characters recovery... Well it is 2nd worst in game.

But back to buffs. @ MarioMeteor MarioMeteor thous buffs which you listed would improve Doc's game nicely. But if you ask me Sheet does not need buff or Pills. Yeah they would be nice, but they aren't must have. Otherwise I 100% (or 99%) agree with you.
 
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#18
I'm saying that as a Ex-Doc main. He deals way too much damage to combo things together. He is way too slow punish things well. I mean yeah Ganondorf has the same problem... BUT he has range witch Doc lacts. Yes he does have good KO moves, but they aren't very safe. He has 2 "safe" KO moves: Bair and D-smash. Yes his Up-b is kinda safe, but landing it against spacing character is hard.
Doc's recovery is ok, but when you compare it to other characters recovery... Well it is 2nd worst in game.

But back to buffs. @ MarioMeteor MarioMeteor thous buffs which you listed would improve Doc's game nicely. But if you ask me Sheet does not need buff or Pills. Yeah they would be nice, but they aren't must have. Otherwise I 100% (or 99%) agree with you.
Seeing as how the Vitamins got nerfed to hell and back from Melee, (where they were his best options) I think they do need some sort of compensation for the 4% damage nerf they got. I don't get why they nerfed the Sheet either. The Vitamins I can understand, cause 8% was a bit too much, but why the Sheet, of all things?
 
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#19
I'm saying that as a Ex-Doc main. He deals way too much damage to combo things together. He is way too slow punish things well. I mean yeah Ganondorf has the same problem... BUT he has range witch Doc lacts. Yes he does have good KO moves, but they aren't very safe. He has 2 "safe" KO moves: Bair and D-smash. Yes his Up-b is kinda safe, but landing it against spacing character is hard.
Doc's recovery is ok, but when you compare it to other characters recovery... Well it is 2nd worst in game.

But back to buffs. @ MarioMeteor MarioMeteor thous buffs which you listed would improve Doc's game nicely. But if you ask me Sheet does not need buff or Pills. Yeah they would be nice, but they aren't must have. Otherwise I 100% (or 99%) agree with you.
> Ex Doc main
> Says that he has no good combo game or punish game.
 
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#20
His combo game is great, i bet you're that kinda guy that thinks his uair doesnt link to another one ( except if you auto cancels it on a short hop fast falled ) on the air, makes his combo game bad. Doc's combos are completely different than mario's. zZzZzZ
 

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#21
I'm saying that as a Ex-Doc main. He deals way too much damage to combo things together. He is way too slow punish things well. I mean yeah Ganondorf has the same problem... BUT he has range witch Doc lacts. Yes he does have good KO moves, but they aren't very safe. He has 2 "safe" KO moves: Bair and D-smash. Yes his Up-b is kinda safe, but landing it against spacing character is hard.
Doc's recovery is ok, but when you compare it to other characters recovery... Well it is 2nd worst in game..

Cant Combo? KO moves arent safe? His fsmash has TONS of knockback if its sheilded and can kill at like 60 . His Dsmash comes out fast and has almost twice the kill power on the backside with pushback, his upsmash can cover 3 out of 4 stage recoveries, and his tornado has more kill power and knockback offstage than anything in the game. How long did you play Doc?

I just wanna see the sourspot taken out of his fair
 
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ShionKaito438

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#23
I wish Doc's cape stalled him mid-air like Mario's. That would make his recovery soooo much better.
But as much as I'd like it, I doubt Sakurai will make such a drastic post-release change.

Also, his throws make people fly while Mario's throws are great for follow ups. I wish he could also create easy combos out of throws.
 
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#24
1.10 Changes for Doc:

:4drmario:Dr. MarioF 00:00
  • Up Smash
    • Growth increased 108 → 117
    • Duration increased 4 → 5 frames (now matches head swing)

Basically, it removes the blind spot in front of his head near the end of the move.
Not much, but it's better than nothing & it's unique to Doc since Mario didn't receive this change.
Also it was one of the changes I wanted to see from him, so might as well cross it off the list.
 

ffdgh

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#25
Give him back his cape hop...his down b can be so unreliable.

And yeah, his new up smash is bonkers lol.
 
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Baby_Sneak

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#26
all he really needs is for tornado to rise quicker and make him deal more damage overall if not make him faster and he would be extremely strong. he's already viable (all his MUs are winnable, just takes alot of effort).
 
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FrankTheStud

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#31
I would just like Dair to autocancel. It doesn't have to spike, but at least let it autocancel so we can combo from it. I'm not asking for true combos, just a move that isn't completely usless. Dair to Downsmash, jab, or upb please?

Edit: Grammar fixes!
 
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FrankTheStud

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#32

Cant Combo? KO moves arent safe? His fsmash has TONS of knockback if its sheilded and can kill at like 60 . His Dsmash comes out fast and has almost twice the kill power on the backside with pushback, his upsmash can cover 3 out of 4 stage recoveries, and his tornado has more kill power and knockback offstage than anything in the game. How long did you play Doc?

I just wanna see the sourspot taken out of his fair
Roy is combo food on any character. Fast fallers combo better at early percents because of Docs increased knockback on Dthrow. Couldn't do that on most of the cast like Mario can. All Mario needs is a little help from one downthrow up+b, or a fireball against the fast fallers to combo as well, if not better, than Doc on FFs.
There are also many moves that are both stronger, and safer than Doc's tornado. A good start is Luigi's tornado.
 
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Kwam$tack$

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#34
Roy is combo food on any character. Fast fallers combo better at early percents because of Docs increased knockback on Dthrow. Couldn't do that on most of the cast like Mario can. All Mario needs is a little help from one downthrow up+b, or a fireball against the fast fallers to combo as well, if not better, than Doc on FFs.
There are also many moves that are both stronger, and safer than Doc's tornado. A good start is Luigi's tornado.
I see what you're saying, but in your vid the roy was just literally taking the utilts and uair juggles without even trying. in my vid, he doesnt move most of the combo because he cant for the most part. he's being re-hit or grabbed. i think there was only 1 maybe 2 spots where he could've gotten out of it by jumping or dodging
 
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FrankTheStud

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#35
I see what you're saying, but in your vid the roy was just literally taking the utilts and uair juggles without even trying. in my vid, he doesnt move most of the combo because he cant for the most part. he's being re-hit or grabbed. i think there was only 1 maybe 2 spots where he could've gotten out of it by jumping or dodging
He was definitely trying. Roy is combo food for Mario.
 

Hydde

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#36
I love the doc. I would improve:

-More killing on his Bthrow
-Make his Fair a little more deadly.
-Make his dash attack slide a little farther..like how it was in melee.
-Make his cape return proyectiles at the first frames of the animation like how it was in melee!!

and last but not least...

MAKE HIS PILLS REBOUND WITH A LOWER ANGLE!
 
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#37
I think Doc would need a significant amount of buffs to be considered viable. Its not because he's bad, but because the Viable characters in this game are so good. That being said, I think Doc needs only a handful of changes to become a high tier character. Here's what I think he needs
  • Down Throw and U-Air cause more hitstun
  • Up B travels the same distance as Mario's
  • UP B's ledge sweetspot is the same as Mario's
  • Sourspot F-Air deals more damage and Knock back
I think if these changes were made, Doc would be significantly better. A buffed Up B would make him significantly harder to gimp and increased hitstun from Down Throw and U-Air would improve his combo game quite a bit. Sour Spot Fair being stronger is just a personal change that I would like to see. It makes no sense that Mario's Sour Spot Fair is stronger imo.
 

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#38
I think Doc would need a significant amount of buffs to be considered viable. Its not because he's bad, but because the Viable characters in this game are so good. That being said, I think Doc needs only a handful of changes to become a high tier character. Here's what I think he needs
  • Down Throw and U-Air cause more hitstun
  • Up B travels the same distance as Mario's
  • UP B's ledge sweetspot is the same as Mario's
  • Sourspot F-Air deals more damage and Knock back
I think if these changes were made, Doc would be significantly better. A buffed Up B would make him significantly harder to gimp and increased hitstun from Down Throw and U-Air would improve his combo game quite a bit. Sour Spot Fair being stronger is just a personal change that I would like to see. It makes no sense that Mario's Sour Spot Fair is stronger imo.
Disagree about his up b range. May as well play Mario then. I'd either say make his down b travel a bit farther upon mash. His sourspot fair I agree with, and his dthrow could have a bit more hitstun overall to combo into easier, but I don't know if it's necessary.

...His dair is still ****, though.
 
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#39
The more I think about it, the more I wish Doc has some sort of Super Armor. While I think it'd be awesome if his Fair had it, I think upSmash might be more appropriate (he does wear that head mirror). I've been playing around with Charizard lately, so I'm starting to understand the potential for Super Armor. I think this would have really set him apart and made up for some of his weaknesses.

Also, commenting on the above couple posts, I agree with Frank. upB doesn't really need any height change, but allowing for more movement overall with downB would be great. I like moves like that which assist in recovery, but take a little amount of effort to pull off. Mashing the button isn't hard, but it's more involved than simply having added height/distance on a jump or upB.
 

Kwam$tack$

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#40
Disagree about his up b range. May as well play Mario then. I'd either say make his down b travel a bit farther upon mash.
If they changed that, his upB would be way too much like luigi's and would be overpowered imo. as much as I would *LOVE* to make it even further from the bottom and go even higher to the top (and even have more sideways momentum for that matter) I think that would be a bit too much.

As far as superarmor goes, Doc with an upsmash super armor would just be beast. charged upsmashes near the edge would be almost guaranteed for some early KOs (depending on whether u need to pivot or not). I think i'd trade the Fair sourspot AND the downb added height for Upsmash s.armor
 
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