What would you change about Greninja?

[Curleh_Mustache]

Why would lower short hop help?

it can help him tomahawk better

 

[bc1910]

A faster grab would be much more beneficial for tomahawks and would have many other uses besides.

 

[Lemonade Candy]

Faster grab and fair.
Extend the hit box a bit outwards on both sides of uair.
Faster recovery on Hydro Pump.
Faster Water Shuriken.

 

[ChkMte]

Faster grab. I was playing some friendlies versus my friend (who was sheik) and I would read his ledge get up, go for a standing grab, and proceed to get punished because the combination of ledge getup+grab is still faster for sheik than greninja's standing grab QQ.

After that, faster nair and fair would be great. And if they would kindly remove that dumb up-B glitch where you go into free fall and die much appreciated.

 

[E.D.N.D.N]

Is it just me or have y'all had problems with greninja's downsmash not hitting opponents that are clearly in the animation. Every once in a while use Dsmash on somebody standing right where I am and it doesn't hit. I think Greninja's hitboxes need some touching up as well

 

[Makani]

Is it just me or have y'all had problems with greninja's downsmash not hitting opponents that are clearly in the animation. Every once in a while use Dsmash on somebody standing right where I am and it doesn't hit. I think Greninja's hitboxes need some touching up as well

I've only had one instance similar to that, but the reason it didn't hit is because I UAir spiked and they bounced above the hitbox.

 

[E.D.N.D.N]

Yea I've had that happen as well. What happened to me yesterday is that a sheik rolled into me while I was charging downsmash, she was standing as close to me as possible and it just completely missed. Then she Upsmashed and put me into losers. Everybody (including the sheik player) were confused by it as the animation makes it look like it his both where greninja is and to his left/right. I've also had a few issues with smaller characters landing right under my Fsmash

 

[Kazeelex]

Just make his counter better. A lot of the time players familiar with Greninja will roll or block after I counter them and Greninja will attack too late. I wish it was instant.

 

[Rubiss]

• Faster Fair
• Faster Hydro Pump (maybe holding the direction speeds it up)
• Faster Shuriken startup speed (or make the projectile itself faster, or both)
• Faster standing grab (can't even be used OOS)
• Faster Up-Smash (like 1.0.3 fast)
• Make Greninja have invincibility frames on the Substitute attack, like every other counter in the game

If he had all of that, Greninja would definitely be higher on the tier list.

 

[Subordinate Alias]

Greninja seems to suffer, like many other characters, from wonky hitboxes on certain attacks, thus occasionally royzoning himself.
As previously mentioned his D-smash and F-smash in particular tend to exhibit this kind of behaviour

https://t.co/hWq6xAMV1L

 

[Snackss]

Greninja seems to suffer, like many other characters, from wonky hitboxes on certain attacks, thus occasionally royzoning himself.
As previously mentioned his D-smash and F-smash in particular tend to exhibit this kind of behaviour

https://t.co/hWq6xAMV1L

His hand is a deadzone because someone apparently thinks Smash Bros. is a precision fighting game. It also has a rather small vertical hitbox, so it's seemingly impossible to punish Yoshi and Pikachu if they land with certain moves.

 

[VioletSmashfan]

Here's what I would want to see for Greninja in terms of buffs:

+Reduced endlag on a lot of his moves, along with reduced landing lag.
+Down air ends sooner (similar to Sonic's own D-air getting the same buff) so he has a better chance of recovering off-stage.
+F-air either buffed in damage and knockback (making it a better kill move) or nerfed in damage and knockback (to give him another attack to chain with for combos), also speed it up a bit as it's rather very laggy at startup.
+WS buffed back to pre-patch self.
+A better grab game perhaps? (he has I think the worst grab in the game).
+Hydro Pump wall-bouncing removed or revamped to allow him to auto-cling to walls, similar to Lucario's Extreme Speed.

Pretty much it.

 

[Caiahar]

NERF HIM

kappa

Better Hydro Pump water push away, better grab, faster Fair startup

 

[DranzerFrost]

I personally want to be able to shield cancel shadow sneak, it would make it a much more useful tool for being "Sneaky"

 

[Deleted member 278362]

[ removed ]

 

[Materialized JSON]

I wonder if people think the balancing patches are under-justified as patches to make it "more like a party game." I personally think, since there are already custom parts/moves, it's programmatically easy to just store a different set of data for characters, and have 2 separate modes (i.e. party and competitive). In party mode , in particular, I think it's great to have everyone broken but in unique ways (polarizing characters). That way whatever character(s) you like, you get to pull out a trick or two during games with friends, and that would be much more enjoyable as a party game.
The polarizing idea should even work for competitive play. I think sm4sh is a really good game to do that, in that you actually have a ledge game to play. To oversimplify the problem, a character could have different characteristics in stage control defensively and offensively and in edge guarding and recovery. That gives a character 4 big dimensions. And in each of the dimensions we could have lots of variables, like reliability determined by risk-reward based on frame data and maneuverability vs extremal potential, determined by absolute power/advantageous properties of moves. Even if we would think of reliability and extremal potential as mutually exclusive, we would have 16 different character models, and most of them could be made good in their own way. If top tier are 16 characters, then this would be a great variety for competitive game already!
To negotiate with Nintendo's goal, I think we should just ask for hydro pump buffs again.

 

[Flatmesa]

Greninja's up air needs to return to the way it was pre-patch, I miss his up air spike.

 

[Jaguar360]

Greninja's up air needs to return to the way it was pre-patch, I miss his up air spike.

Iirc the up-air spike wasn't nerfed in any way. It was just the knockback that was nerfed I believe. I do wish that the nerf was undone though.

 

[free33]

I want running shadow sneak back, prepatch hydro pump, faster Fair and grab, bigger utilt hitbox, fixed substitute (which should be an amazing move), and leg hitboxes on Uair/easier Uair spikes, and a slightly wider and slightly longer hitbox on Dair. Also shurikens should jablock

 

[Subordinate Alias]

Iirc the up-air spike wasn't nerfed in any way. It was just the knockback that was nerfed I believe. I do wish that the nerf was undone though.

I think what he's referring to is how Greninja's uair spike used to bounce characters off the ground allowing the uair spike to link into itself unless the opponent teched.

 

[Derpnaster]

I think what he's referring to is how Greninja's uair spike used to bounce characters off the ground allowing the uair spike to link into itself unless the opponent teched.

It still does that but not as strong, I find that a good thing you can do with the uair drag (I don't call that a spike anymore) is a low percent drag near the ground and a followup with a utilt, a smash, or any decently fast option.

 

[SJMistery]

I have commented it on a couple of sites but iI feel like doing it again: I find Substitute a tremendous waste of potential:

Substitute has potential to become the most unique and probably the best counterattack ever in Smash ironically by not making it work like a counterattack at all. If it depended on me, it would work 2 ways, dependent on where Greninja uses the special, the ground or the air:

On the ground,start pressing down+B and holding B. You leave a Substitute doll instantly, without having to receive an attack, and only a doll, not a log (to diferentiate the ground and aerial variants visually, not for anything else). The doll becomes inamovible and whoever dares to use a melee attack on it will get stunned. By moving the stick you choose direction like the actual Substitute of 4. The moment you release B, or if you reach the time charge limit, the Substitute dissapears, and a quarter of a second later Greninja reappears and attacks with a flying kick the usual way directed to the point where the center of the Substitute was, with the kick being stronger with more charge time, but doing zero damage to shields and receiving the usual long endlag if he misses.

Used on the air, a wood log appears instead, and floats in place. Attacking it does nothing. You charge, select direction and reappear in the same way to the ground variant, but this time the log does not dissapear, and you reappear instantly after releasing B. You will ALWAYS collide with the log and will loose all momentum there, to prevent the obvious recovery abuse that I suspect is the reason Substitute is a counter at all while exploding attack that does not give movement can be used freely. The log will get shot on the same direction Greninja was going when he collided with it with proportional speed to the charge time, causing tremendous damage and knockback to whoever it hits when fully charged in a similar way to the Fire Hydrant, provided someone has the guts to stay anywhere near you while you charge it lol.



And of coruse, fix Hydro Pump's vertical wind so it pushes downward when Greninja moves upward. Yes, it would potentially be OP against trivals with bad recoveries, but as one of them is me arch-enemy Cloud, I don't f**** care. Plus they could have just made the wind much weaker or make the wind hitbox smaller when going staight up. Reversing it is quite bizarre.

 

[Heracr055]

I would like Greninja's tongue to function as a tether grab. I woukd also like if Shadow Sneak could hit knocked down opponents.

 

[SJMistery]

Yeah, that tongue acting as a grab would be awesome and 100% fitting (I mean, come on, he is a frog, that's how frogs hunt). Tough, they should keep the whirlpool for the grabbed-pummeling animation, and for the dash grab. Plus, his grab is already slow and disjointed like every tether in the game, so why not?

Plus, Super Armor or at least Heavy Armor against attacks with less thatn 15% damage on Substitute, right now it can be interrupted even by an infinite jab for F***'s sake.

 

[MERPIS]

I'd make nair and fair much faster and less hard to hit, with nair coming out on frame 6 and fair on frame 8 or 10. I'd also decrease endlag on dtilt and ftilt by 3 frames, I'd increase uair's hitboxes so characters don't fall out of it randomly, I always have characters falling out of it in the air, and I would make his dthrow combo better, and his uthrow kill better.

 

[SJMistery]

If one throw needs to be remade is back throw. It's 100% useless. At least, Fthrow can set up a mixup with dash attack, regrab,or Nair/Fair at low percents.

I agree with the decreased lag in Nair, but not in Fair. That thing is essentially a midair FSmash, and has tremendous killpower when properly connected. Lessened lag in Fair combined with his huge midair jump and his Dair spike, would let Greninja combo half the cast right to the lateral or bottom blast zones, and live to tell the tale with Hydro Pump.

Also, a fast Fair would be crazy good for edgeguarding, and he already is too good at that with Shadow Sneak and Hydro Pump.

 

[MERPIS]

If one throw needs to be remade is back throw. It's 100% useless. At least, Fthrow can set up a mixup with dash attack, regrab,or Nair/Fair at low percents.

I agree with the decreased lag in Nair, but not in Fair. That thing is essentially a midair FSmash, and has tremendous killpower when properly connected. Lessened lag in Fair combined with his huge midair jump and his Dair spike, would let Greninja combo half the cast right to the lateral or bottom blast zones, and live to tell the tale with Hydro Pump.

Also, a fast Fair would be crazy good for edgeguarding, and he already is too good at that with Shadow Sneak and Hydro Pump.

Alright, I'll bite.
You do realize that fair is a frame SIXTEEN move, right? Taking 6 frames away will atleast make it better for air to air combat. And about that whole fsmash thing, Mewtwo's fair comes out of frame 6, has more kill power, and has considerable range despite the animation.

A fast fair would make greninja about as good for edgeguarding as he is now, shadow sneak only leads to SDs and hydro pump can actually help opponents depending on the trajectory. Greninja also cannot combo the opponent into the bottom blast zone, his dair prevents it due to the lack of hit stun on the sour spot. Making it frame 10 would make it fast, but still a little slow.

 

[free33]

Greninja also cannot combo the opponent into the bottom blast zone, his dair prevents it due to the lack of hit stun on the sour spot. Making it frame 10 would make it fast, but still a little slow.

Actually on many characters sourspot dair combos into footstool into sweetspot dair. I've killed with this before multiple times, and even if the opponent tries to use up b, you can just dair-footstool-dair again for the kill.

 

[SJMistery]

Alright, I'll bite.
You do realize that fair is a frame SIXTEEN move, right? Taking 6 frames away will atleast make it better for air to air combat. And about that whole fsmash thing, Mewtwo's fair comes out of frame 6, has more kill power, and has considerable range despite the animation.

A fast fair would make greninja about as good for edgeguarding as he is now, shadow sneak only leads to SDs and hydro pump can actually help opponents depending on the trajectory. Greninja also cannot combo the opponent into the bottom blast zone, his dair prevents it due to the lack of hit stun on the sour spot. Making it frame 10 would make it fast, but still a little slow.

It's not comparable. Mewtwo has much lesser edgeguard potential due to the laggy double jump, and his light weight can cause problems when trading aerial attacks. Plus, Shadow Sneak only leads to SD if you charge it too much when recovering or if you use it instead of Hydro Pump. And Dair is esssentially a footstool on steroids. The sweetspot kills early, and the sourspot chains to a dozen combos, some of them ending on charged Smash attaccks, or into the sweetspotted Dair itself as mentioned above.

When it comes to air-to-air, Bair, Uair and sometimes Substitute are the way to go.

 

[MERPIS]

Plus, Shadow Sneak only leads to SD if you charge it too much when recovering or if you use it instead of Hydro Pump. And Dair is esssentially a footstool on steroids. The sweetspot kills early, and the sourspot chains to a dozen combos, some of them ending on charged Smash attaccks, or into the sweetspotted Dair itself as mentioned above.

No, shadow sneak has so much endlag that if you have no double jump, you're pretty much screwed. Plus no one uses shadow sneak for edgeguarding, or anything for that matter. Maybe for breaking out of attacks and combos but thats it. Also, if you miss your dair, then what happens? Oh yes, you fall, and into the abyss you go.

 

[SJMistery]

Who would be stupid enough to use Shadow Sneak, or any attack for that matter, after exhausting the double jump, at a height low enough for a recovery to be impossible? And yeah, if you miss SuiciDair, you are pretty much screwed, that's why you are supposed to use it at point-blank range, and especially NOT BE PREDICTABLE, so the opponent does not have time to airdodge

Shadow Sneak is a very good attack, it's just that, again, YOU HAVE TO WAIT until you can use it safely. Bait the opponent with a crawl or a taunt, use it to trap a landing, or to take out edge-guarders. That's when Shadow Sneak's potential truly shines.


But that's not the discussion for that. You said your idea, the rest aren't convinced by it. You want it, okay. We don't, also okay. The end.

 

[MERPIS]

Who would be stupid enough to use Shadow Sneak, or any attack for that matter, after exhausting the double jump, at a height low enough for a recovery to be impossible? And yeah, if you miss SuiciDair, you are pretty much screwed, that's why you are supposed to use it at point-blank range, and especially NOT BE PREDICTABLE, so the opponent does not have time to airdodge

Shadow Sneak is a very good attack, it's just that, again, YOU HAVE TO WAIT until you can use it safely. Bait the opponent with a crawl or a taunt, use it to trap a landing, or to take out edge-guarders. That's when Shadow Sneak's potential truly shines.


But that's not the discussion for that. You said your idea, the rest aren't convinced by it. You want it, okay. We don't, also okay. The end.

But you're the only one who is objecting...? Also on the frame dair comes out, you'd be lucky to punish any risky option. Also, how can SHADOW SNEAK of all moves take out edgeguarders..? I'm genuinely curious.

 

[SJMistery]

Easy: all of those that keep close to the edge to try to snipe you on the 2 frame vulnerability, they will get hit.
Still, not the thread for that.

Oh, and a good idea would be to remove half of the endlag on the dash attack and the Dair hitstun glitch (buffering that move during hitstun causes you to start floating hopelessly in midair). When the game lags just a bit, those two moves become unusable.

 

[MERPIS]

Easy: all of those that keep close to the edge to try to snipe you on the 2 frame vulnerability, they will get hit.

Oh yes, that is so much easier than just shielding and counter attacking. Also, there is nothing wrong with a little healthy argument..

Oh, and a good idea would be to remove half of the endlag on the dash attack and the Dair hitstun glitch (buffering that move during hitstun causes you to start floating hopelessly in midair). When the game lags just a bit, those two moves become unusable.

Isn't dash attack already sort of safe? Or do you just want an easier combo option? Because if you remove the endlag, then dash attack to fair or usmash becomes practically guaranteed.

 

[SJMistery]

Exactly. The fastest kill confirm Greninja has rounds the 150% damage on the enemy. This would solve the problem. Plus, the dath attack, like everything else in Greninja's movepool, does negligible shield damage.

 

[MERPIS]

Exactly. The fastest kill confirm Greninja has rounds the 150% damage on the enemy. This would solve the problem. Plus, the dath attack, like everything else in Greninja's movepool, does negligible shield damage.

You see, That's a big greninja problem, he has terrible safe frames on shield. What would dash attack to fair kill at?