What would ness be like if he were considered to be top tier?

Luk101

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jul 21, 2015
Messages
66
#1
I was reading on /r/SSBPM and apparently the top Ness's all agree that ness is mid tier and has almost entirely bad matchups. What would it take for ness to have what it takes to be a top tier pm character like Ike or lucario or lucas? He benefits from having a more technical player play him with his djc's and magnet shenanigans, but that doesn't always seem to be enough. Could ness ever be a solid competitor with at least half decent matchups without being broken? Or will he always just be a fun character that runs into a wall once you actually play a good character and good player? Or are all the top ness's wrong and he just has some untapped potential no one has seen yet? I'd love to hear everyone's thoughts on this and what buffs he might need in the future to compete.
 

Darth Shard

Dark Lord of the Smash Bros.
Joined
Jun 12, 2013
Messages
89
Location
Portland, OR
#2
I don't know that I agree that Ness has almost entirely bad matchups. He struggles against disjoint, and he isn't the fastest character so sometimes is at a disadvantage, but even though he is a character with clear weaknesses, he also has a lot of strengths. Underrated dash-dance, good wavedash, DJC opens up a whole world of possibilities that even the best players could stand to tighten up. Tbh, Ness is no where near optimized, so I think it is silly to write him off as being unable to do it by any extreme. No one has mastered all of his tools in such a way as to be able to show us his full potential.

As far as what it would take to make him a high tier, I'm not totally certain. I know everyone will have their own opinion on this, and I don't claim to be an expert, but I do have ideas that I've gathered from my own thoughts and those of other players. I think he could benefit from any or all of the following changes:

* Faster magnet (Lucas' is only 5 frames to our 8)
* Faster base speed
* Uair stays out longer
* Bthrow sends opponents at a lower angle
* His recovery could change in a number of ways
- Invulnerable during PKT1
- Doesn't go into special fall if someone steals the thunderbolt during PKT1
- Larger hitbox during PKT2
 

DHD

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jun 24, 2015
Messages
44
#3
I just think he has an insane skill ceiling.
The amount of timing and precision it takes to do the things he needs to is the skill floor and I've never met anyone who says they know how to play Ness to his fullest. There's always some little thing or some things to improve and then implement in you play style.

Quickly landing on platforms with your double jump is something I've seen very few people pull off and fewer actually use proficiently. None that do it well enough to base parts of their play style on it.

So there's always room for improvement and to be honest, if the team decided to make all the things he CAN do easy enough for people to use it, he'd be pretty high tier I think.
 
Joined
Oct 19, 2011
Messages
747
Location
New Jersey
#4
Some of us were messing around in Discord the other day talking about buffing Ness. One idea that was fun to talk about was what if Ness' Magnet could push and/or pull opponents to/away from him? Sounded wacky but it's a cool idea to explore.
 
Last edited:

MeBoy

Smash Rookie
Joined
Aug 20, 2014
Messages
17
Location
Aurora, IL
#6
I just think he has an insane skill ceiling.
The amount of timing and precision it takes to do the things he needs to is the skill floor
Couldn't agree more; once I realized his skill ceiling I kind of stopped playing him (and pm altogether) as much. Suddenly inspired to work on mastery of the character though…
 

MeBoy

Smash Rookie
Joined
Aug 20, 2014
Messages
17
Location
Aurora, IL
#7
I don't know that I agree that Ness has almost entirely bad matchups. He struggles against disjoint, and he isn't the fastest character so sometimes is at a disadvantage, but even though he is a character with clear weaknesses, he also has a lot of strengths. Underrated dash-dance, good wavedash, DJC opens up a whole world of possibilities that even the best players could stand to tighten up. Tbh, Ness is no where near optimized, so I think it is silly to write him off as being unable to do it by any extreme. No one has mastered all of his tools in such a way as to be able to show us his full potential.

As far as what it would take to make him a high tier, I'm not totally certain. I know everyone will have their own opinion on this, and I don't claim to be an expert, but I do have ideas that I've gathered from my own thoughts and those of other players. I think he could benefit from any or all of the following changes:

* Faster magnet (Lucas' is only 5 frames to our 8)
* Faster base speed
* Uair stays out longer
* Bthrow sends opponents at a lower angle
* His recovery could change in a number of ways
- Invulnerable during PKT1
- Doesn't go into special fall if someone steals the thunderbolt during PKT1
- Larger hitbox during PKT2
Agree with everything but invulnerability during PKT1 – I play a lot of games going PKT only and if I was invulnerable every time I used PKT1, I'd have a mob of pitchfork wielding smashers chasing me out of venues
edit: also PKT2 doesn't need a larger hitbox, it would be really cheap IMO as it travels pretty fast and you have enough mix ups with it to be able to use it offensively for how unsafe it is and how few situations call for it (unless you're a madman like me)

Let's work with what we have though. Optimizing DJC aerials by mastering jump->tap jump->c-stick is most important because you can chain DJC aerials/magnets VERY fast. The biggest problem I have with this is it requires a lot of awkward inputs at a very fast speed, but it makes his combo game one of the best. I also struggle with reading DI while inputting DJC aerials and making slight adjustments to account for their DI.

Faking the opponent out with properly spaced reverse magnet aerials is also really good. If your dash dance game is on point as well as your magdashes, you now have two solid ways to play neutral. My biggest problem with reverse mag aerials is spacing (used to be the inputs til I got consistent with multishining with falco, as the jump->downB motion is pretty much the same). I also am not sure whether just jumping out of magnet or tap jumping is better for reverse magnet aerials, will have to try that out.

Recovery is huge. Be able to sweetspot PKT2 from anywhere, and also be able to know exactly where on stage your PKT2s will put you. This makes a huge difference in the opponent's ability to punish your recovery. Utilize stages that allow you to ride up the ledge to add another mixup, and always think before you upB.

I haven't played the full 3.6 yet so I'm missing some specific things that might've been changed, but tl;dr Ness' combo game is really ****ing hard but also really, really good. His dash dance mixed with aerials out of magnet + reverse mag are his neutral. And his recovery is entirely muscle memory – once you're able to have complete control of it, it is one of the best recoveries in the game IMO (against most of the cast, some characters **** it super hard if you aren't careful)

just my two cents
 
Last edited:

Psi Sig

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 15, 2014
Messages
262
Location
Poughkeepsie
#9
It sounds like Ness' skill ceiling is being confused with just regular smash fundamentals. Ness' tech is not THAT hard.
^^^this^^^ because they're are players that can execute all Ness' tech consistently who still aren't topping they're region's PR. Stereo Kidd, for example, the one most people see as the best Ness right now, known for not dropping anything still got 17th at blacklisted. Ness' optimizing they're tech would not make them top tier.
Ness' weight makes him combo food, he has, in my opinion, one of the worst recoveries in the game, and some of the shortest range in the game.
But for the most part I agree with Darth shards changes, minus the invulnerable during pkt1, that would be a little busted in conjunction with not going into special fall, maybe, MAYBE, some light armor. and also something to help with CCers now that D-tilt has been nerfed
 
Last edited:

DHD

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jun 24, 2015
Messages
44
#10
I watched some Stereo Kidd and from what I gathered, there are still things he's not doing that would give him much better options like lagless pk fire and lagless platform landing.

That said, I had a discussion with some people in the local FGC where we discussed whether characters should be considered good depending on what they can do under the best circumstances or if they should be considered as good as they're doing on tournaments.

We came to the conclusion that if people can't do the things the character is capable of in an environment where it counts, there's not really any proof of that character being better than it is performing currently. Yes, you could say that it's technically better than people can make it. But in the end, unless we're putting two flawless CPUs against each other or having a super computer calculate the outcome by probability, player performance is our best measure when determining how good a character is.
 

Boiko

:drshrug:
Premium
Joined
Mar 31, 2011
Messages
1,457
Location
New York
#11
Lagless PK Fire isn't even lagless. It's a short hop commitment and if you miss you have empty landing lag and if you hit you have 12 frames of landing lag. It's countered by run up shield.

Lagless platform landing falls under the window of unnecessarily difficult and useful in very, very, very, few situations.

Stereo is one of the less technical Ness players and instead focuses his game on baiting and approaching behind PK Fire. If you want to watch a more technical Ness watch Tetraflora, Calabreal, or Delicious Octorok.

You don't need to be flashy and technical to win. You just need to be smart.
 

Boiko

:drshrug:
Premium
Joined
Mar 31, 2011
Messages
1,457
Location
New York
#13
so out of curiosity, what would you changes would you make to Ness @ Boiko Boiko
Bair damage buff from 15% to 16%
Magnet start from frame 8 to frame 7
Transcendent PKT1 (still clanks with bodies, gyro, bombs, ice blocks, pikmin, but not arrows, missiles, Din's, needles, etc.)
Free fall landing lag reduced from frame 20 to 7 (matches Fox)
Dair damage reduced from 14% to 13% (allows kill conversions later)
 

Luk101

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jul 21, 2015
Messages
66
#14
I like most of your proposed changes. Making PKT1 not clank with needles would be great because if a sheik knows how to use her needles well, then basically any Ness should die if he is recovering below the stage. Also I'm just curious of the reasons why you don't want Ness's magnet to start at the same time as lucas's? I guess it does have slightly more range and is a little easier to hit. So was I right in saying that most of the top Ness players stilll think that Ness is only mid tier?
 

MeBoy

Smash Rookie
Joined
Aug 20, 2014
Messages
17
Location
Aurora, IL
#15
It sounds like Ness' skill ceiling is being confused with just regular smash fundamentals. Ness' tech is not THAT hard.
Full optimization of Ness' tech in theory seems harder than most other characters'. Having to input three different analog stick directions (up, left/right, down) with variations in timing is the majority of it.
 

Boiko

:drshrug:
Premium
Joined
Mar 31, 2011
Messages
1,457
Location
New York
#16
Mid tier at best, unfortunately.

I experimented with making magnet just two frames faster (active on frame six), and it was actually insanely broken. His magnet is used very differently than Lucas', and it being much faster is an extremely strong tool. In fact, it made almost no sense for him to not use it, as it clearly became his best option.

@ MeBoy MeBoy Are you talking about doing things like advancing/retreating DJC aerials with a fast fall? If so, it's still not that hard. I get where you're coming from, for the most part. He is more technically demanding than a lot of the cast. The problem is that being technical with him doesn't make him a much better character, if it all. Baiting and punishing is still his best strategy.
 

MeBoy

Smash Rookie
Joined
Aug 20, 2014
Messages
17
Location
Aurora, IL
#17
Mid tier at best, unfortunately.

I experimented with making magnet just two frames faster (active on frame six), and it was actually insanely broken. His magnet is used very differently than Lucas', and it being much faster is an extremely strong tool. In fact, it made almost no sense for him to not use it, as it clearly became his best option.

@ MeBoy MeBoy Are you talking about doing things like advancing/retreating DJC aerials with a fast fall? If so, it's still not that hard. I get where you're coming from, for the most part. He is more technically demanding than a lot of the cast. The problem is that being technical with him doesn't make him a much better character, if it all. Baiting and punishing is still his best strategy.
Yeah - for me, I struggle with fluidity between chaining DJC aerials (tapjump+cstick) and magnets optimally. I've spent a lot of lab time working on comboing optimally and it's just difficult for me to consistently and optimally combo with djcaerials and magnet due to the amount of inputs and precise timing required to be as fast as possible.

I agree that his bait&punish game is where he excels, but he does combo the **** out of fast fallers at low percents at insane speeds if you can consistently hit those frame windows

edit: to clarify I have no problem getting the first advancing DJC aerial -> magnet, and the second aerial/other option out of magnet. I guess I try to use Ness like Falco too much with pressure, and I've found that his pressure game is = to or better than Falco's in some situations, but requires a lot of technical proficiency, more so than Falco/Fox
 
Last edited:

Boiko

:drshrug:
Premium
Joined
Mar 31, 2011
Messages
1,457
Location
New York
#18
Yeah - for me, I struggle with fluidity between chaining DJC aerials (tapjump+cstick) and magnets optimally. I've spent a lot of lab time working on comboing optimally and it's just difficult for me to consistently and optimally combo with djcaerials and magnet due to the amount of inputs and precise timing required to be as fast as possible.

I agree that his bait&punish game is where he excels, but he does combo the **** out of fast fallers at low percents at insane speeds if you can consistently hit those frame windows

edit: to clarify I have no problem getting the first advancing DJC aerial -> magnet, and the second aerial/other option out of magnet. I guess I try to use Ness like Falco too much with pressure, and I've found that his pressure game is = to or better than Falco's in some situations, but requires a lot of technical proficiency, more so than Falco/Fox
Yeah, it takes practice for sure. I look back on my play when I first started a little over a year ago and it's definitely much slower than what I do now. You just gotta practice up.

His combos are very good until your opponent begins to SDI, that's when it starts to get somewhat frustrating. All of a sudden you're hitting Fox with just one uair instead of three or more. Yeah, Falco just has it easy, shine>grab. Ness needs to do a lot more to have a similar level of pressure.
 

MeBoy

Smash Rookie
Joined
Aug 20, 2014
Messages
17
Location
Aurora, IL
#19
Yeah, it takes practice for sure. I look back on my play when I first started a little over a year ago and it's definitely much slower than what I do now. You just gotta practice up.

His combos are very good until your opponent begins to SDI, that's when it starts to get somewhat frustrating. All of a sudden you're hitting Fox with just one uair instead of three or more. Yeah, Falco just has it easy, shine>grab. Ness needs to do a lot more to have a similar level of pressure.
I'd say the speed I play at is at the level of/better than most less technical Ness players, even watching Octo play my Ness seems faster. I'm just really nitpicky when it comes to optimization, and I haven't been active much in the last 6 months so basic fundamentals tend to slip my mind here and there. Just need to work on consistency.

I'm still really interested in optimizing Ness' combo game on ff'ers, will probably get started on a flowchart of sorts focusing on covering SDI in specific situations (if anyone wants to contribute that'd be awesome)
 

BuddyBooNW

Smash Rookie
Joined
May 30, 2015
Messages
10
#20
Here are a few changes I would like to see to maybe make Ness move upwards.
1. Nair coming out faster. (Ithink peaches does on like frame 1) Why not make Ness have the same thing?
2.Pk Fire lasting 55-65 frames vs the 45 is is now.
3. Dair lasting a tad longer maybe 5-10 frames.
4. Recovery.

Honestly. Ness has some awesome tools and playstyle. I don't think much more is needed than those few things.
 

Boiko

:drshrug:
Premium
Joined
Mar 31, 2011
Messages
1,457
Location
New York
#21
Here are a few changes I would like to see to maybe make Ness move upwards.
1. Nair coming out faster. (Ithink peaches does on like frame 1) Why not make Ness have the same thing?
2.Pk Fire lasting 55-65 frames vs the 45 is is now.
3. Dair lasting a tad longer maybe 5-10 frames.
4. Recovery.

Honestly. Ness has some awesome tools and playstyle. I don't think much more is needed than those few things.
1.) Nair comes out frame four, Peach's comes out frame three. It's fast enough as it is.
2.) Not really better, just different. The opponent can still SDI out of buffer a roll the same way they could before.
3.) Dair is active frames 5-13, so nine frames total
4.) Yes.
 

ForgottenLabRat

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Nov 18, 2014
Messages
241
Location
Lafayette CO
#22
I think Ness is basically good where he is. In some match ups you have to play a lot more patient than I'd like but hes not a bad character. He has a great combo/gimp game on a lot of the cast with amazing aerial kill and combo moves. The only place he is really lacking in is recovery, not distance but edge guard ability. His neutral isn't amazing but it's good enough so overall he is not a bad charcter and can put in work if you are decent with tech skill. Also who thinks Lucario or Lucas is toptier? Now Ike, that's a different story.
 

Luk101

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jul 21, 2015
Messages
66
#23
Do you guys think that buffs to Ness's normals might help him in different ways than aerial changes? Maybe lightning fast frame 4 or 5 f tilt? Better jab?
Another thought I had was for a new upsmash to have pk flash go off in a circle around you and would have the kill power of a semi charged pk flash. This would give Ness more options to straight up kill people than bair, f smash, or up air. But I don't know if this would really work cause its basically just like magnet and neutral b combined. I like ness's down smash but his up smash is just too slow for anti air, and doesn't kill early enough.
 
Last edited:

Red(SP)

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Nov 2, 2010
Messages
261
Location
Sakazaki Dojo
#24
@ Luk101 Luk101
He already had buffs to his neutral of the sort. I feel like the character rewards you by optimizing your whiff-punishing at the highest level. The only thing I think that's holding Ness back is his recovery, but I don't even think most players have optimized it properly yet.

I like the changes @ Boiko Boiko mentioned.
 
Last edited:

Qazzquimby

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jul 25, 2014
Messages
25
#25
How useful would it be for recovery if PKT1 moved faster, giving a smaller window to mess it up? It would also make it better outside of recovery.
 

Red(SP)

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Nov 2, 2010
Messages
261
Location
Sakazaki Dojo
#27
I remember @Akhenderson talking about making grounded PK Fire activate on shield. Comparing frame data, his grounded PK Fire comes out on frame 20 and his aerial PK Fire comes out on frame 15. Best approach to a normal grounded PK Fire (imo) is either run -> shield or jump. It's telegraphed and easy to intercept. As you know, aerial PK Fire has a plethora of uses and doesn't halt his momentum. Adding activation on aerial PK Fire would mean low commitment for using the move, and I think the idea here is that we would like to incorporate using our brains when playing the character instead of harboring on options that become over-centralized.

I think I remember @ Boiko Boiko talking somewhere about EX Fire being subpar because the best defensive option would be to run up and shield. The move comes out on frame 12 (please hmu if that's not accurate because I can't even find where you said this lol) and it's a one frame window. This is actually very similar to Tekken/Soul Calibur's Just Frame inputs, where moves would require to activate on the first available frame.

It's not something that can be forced and therefore would require practice and an understanding of rhythm/timing to execute. As it stands right now, it is an option that recently started picking up in popularity, but it's subpar as it is now (and is often overlooked during commentary, aside the point).

I'm not sure what type of limitations the DT have in coding different properties to the same special move, but I think adding activation on shield on grounded PK Fire wouldn't be too extreme at all. In fact, with the way it is now, it would actually encourage using EX Fire because it would come out 8 frames faster and activate on shield. Pretty rewarding without turning it into a huge over-sight.

Lemme know what y'all think.
 
Last edited:

Luk101

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jul 21, 2015
Messages
66
#28
That's an interesting idea. But we might get the salty 3.02 mob back at us again from back when pretty much all ness had was pk fire. Making all grounded pk fire break on shield would probably not go over so hot. It was actually calabrel, a ness player, who pushed so hard for ness to have pk fire on shield removed. Maybe, PMDT could make only EX fire break on shield? That might be impossible though considering that EX fire is a glitch as it is.
 

Boiko

:drshrug:
Premium
Joined
Mar 31, 2011
Messages
1,457
Location
New York
#29
I remember @Akhenderson talking about making grounded PK Fire activate on shield. Comparing frame data, his grounded PK Fire comes out on frame 20 and his aerial PK Fire comes out on frame 15. Best approach to a normal grounded PK Fire (imo) is either run -> shield or jump. It's telegraphed and easy to intercept. As you know, aerial PK Fire has a plethora of uses and doesn't halt his momentum. Adding activation on aerial PK Fire would mean low commitment for using the move, and I think the idea here is that we would like to incorporate using our brains when playing the character instead of harboring on options that become over-centralized.

I think I remember @ Boiko Boiko talking somewhere about EX Fire being subpar because the best defensive option would be to run up and shield. The move comes out on frame 12 (please hmu if that's not accurate because I can't even find where you said this lol) and it's a one frame window. This is actually very similar to Tekken/Soul Calibur's Just Frame inputs, where moves would require to activate on the first available frame.

It's not something that can be forced and therefore would require practice and an understanding of rhythm/timing to execute. As it stands right now, it is an option that recently started picking up in popularity, but it's subpar as it is now (and is often overlooked during commentary, aside the point).

I'm not sure what type of limitations the DT have in coding different properties to the same special move, but I think adding activation on shield on grounded PK Fire wouldn't be too extreme at all. In fact, with the way it is now, it would actually encourage using EX Fire because it would come out 8 frames faster and activate on shield. Pretty rewarding without turning it into a huge over-sight.

Lemme know what y'all think.
I believe that you're confusing PK Fire landing lag(12 frames) with EXFire Input. EXFire requires you to land on the same frame that the article is generated(16). I don't think making PK Fire activate on shield is really the answer. We had that in 3.0, and although the pillar lasted for 100 frames instead of the 45 it lasts now, it was pretty bad design, imo.

That's an interesting idea. But we might get the salty 3.02 mob back at us again from back when pretty much all ness had was pk fire. Making all grounded pk fire break on shield would probably not go over so hot. It was actually calabrel, a ness player, who pushed so hard for ness to have pk fire on shield removed. Maybe, PMDT could make only EX fire break on shield? That might be impossible though considering that EX fire is a glitch as it is.
That wouldn't be possible afaik without making it an entirely different command sequence that generates a separate article. Even if it were though, it would just put a greater reliance on a one frame trick in order to have a good neutral. A neutral game shouldn't be based on things like that.

In my opinion, these are the better approaches to take with PK Fire:

Suggested by Infinity Collision:
If you land during the start up frames of aerial PK Fire (1-15), the grounded version continues instead. The biggest problem I have with this is that it basically forces a commitment if you throw PK Fire. You're either going to throw it in the air, or you're going to land and continue with the very long grounded version. If there was a "hold b to continue with grounded version" option, that would be better.
Suggested by Boiko:
Hold B while in the air to throw a straight bolt instead of a bolt angled downward. This has the same start up and lag as the grounded version (article created on frame 21 instead of the aerial version's frame 16). It would be a very powerful tool for allowing Ness to land safely and threaten the zone in front of him. This is something that a lot of other characters can do, such and Lucas, Falco, Toon Link, Link, Samus, etc.
 
Last edited:

Player -0

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 7, 2013
Messages
5,125
Location
Helsong's Carpeted Floor
#30
Just having the ability to shoot a horizontal PKF in the air would be really strong. It would allow him to mixup between DJC in and DJC away/wavebounce PKF. Prob still reachable to extent.

If that were added a base speed probably would be unnecessary.

Prob some of Boiko's stuff.

I really want his DJ to be sped up a bit.
 

Boiko

:drshrug:
Premium
Joined
Mar 31, 2011
Messages
1,457
Location
New York
#31
Just having the ability to shoot a horizontal PKF in the air would be really strong. It would allow him to mixup between DJC in and DJC away/wavebounce PKF. Prob still reachable to extent.

If that were added a base speed probably would be unnecessary.

Prob some of Boiko's stuff.

I really want his DJ to be sped up a bit.
Yeah, I was thinking if he could shoot in the air, it would behave more like Lucas' in brawl.

I do like the idea of holding b when converting from air to ground continues the grounded animation.

Speeding up his DJ is such a give and take. I want it but I don't. :/
 

Red(SP)

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Nov 2, 2010
Messages
261
Location
Sakazaki Dojo
#32
@ Boiko Boiko I was actually unaware PK Fire had landing lag. I just checked the thread again. That's crazy as hell LOL. So basically he gets punished either way.

I think the only advantage EX Fire has is that it comes out 5 frames faster (16 versus 25 frames). Personally, I think PK Fire could use a whole new redesign. Something fresh and something cool while having some sort of good design involved.

I'm all for crazy execution **** so maybe they can find a medium for it. I don't really like the aerial side b thing. It's kind of a drawback because you want to convert off of punishes and Lucas' PK Fire sort of takes away from the conversion ideal.

The only good I could see it being is if it became integrated as a movement option, because the last thing Ness needs is less space between him and his opponent.

I honestly don't know. I'm content with Ness as he is now because even if he has all of this tech it can be considerably useless in the sense that the best strategy is still bait and punish, no matter how technical the player controlling him is. I think he could use some small, subtle changes. But at the very least I would still like the character to be as fun as he is currently.

Also, I was thinking that Ness would (kind of) benefit from a faster DJ. There are a lot of awkward scenarios where you'll magnet someone and they hit this 45 degree angle and he can't really do much but dj -> magnet or rising uair. I've actually considered the idea that he could change his position similar to shine and get a rising bair, so I feel like he would probably benefit from the idea. But I'm with you on the kinda.
 
Last edited:

Boiko

:drshrug:
Premium
Joined
Mar 31, 2011
Messages
1,457
Location
New York
#33
@ Boiko Boiko
I honestly don't know. I'm content with Ness as he is now because even if he has all of this tech it can be considerably useless in the sense that the best strategy is still bait and punish, no matter how technical the player controlling him is. I think he could use some small, subtle changes. But at the very least I would still like the character to be as fun as he is currently.
Bair damage buff from 15% to 16%
Magnet start from frame 8 to frame 7
Transcendent PKT1 (still clanks with bodies, gyro, bombs, ice blocks, pikmin, but not arrows, missiles, Din's, needles, etc.)
Free fall landing lag reduced from frame 20 to 7 (matches Fox)
Dair damage reduced from 14% to 13% (allows kill conversions later)
:3
 
Joined
Sep 7, 2014
Messages
57
#34
Bair damage buff from 15% to 16%
Magnet start from frame 8 to frame 7
Transcendent PKT1 (still clanks with bodies, gyro, bombs, ice blocks, pikmin, but not arrows, missiles, Din's, needles, etc.)
Free fall landing lag reduced from frame 20 to 7 (matches Fox)
Dair damage reduced from 14% to 13% (allows kill conversions later)
Can you explain how the Dair damage reduce allows for kill conversions later, exactly?
 

Player -0

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 7, 2013
Messages
5,125
Location
Helsong's Carpeted Floor
#36
DJ speed increase intensifies.

The "only" nerf I could see from the speed increase is that you can't do slow rising Fairs and the like. This can be overcome with smart use of how long you hold the jump button though.
 

PockyDesu

Smash Rookie
Joined
Apr 22, 2015
Messages
11
Location
Reno
#40
Bair damage buff from 15% to 16%
Magnet start from frame 8 to frame 7
Transcendent PKT1 (still clanks with bodies, gyro, bombs, ice blocks, pikmin, but not arrows, missiles, Din's, needles, etc.)
Free fall landing lag reduced from frame 20 to 7 (matches Fox)
Dair damage reduced from 14% to 13% (allows kill conversions later)
I would love to see these implemented. I feel the PK Thunder change would be amazingly fair.
 
Top Bottom