What Would Get You Guys Interested in Project M?

[Paradoxium]

K auto combos dont exist, so can we please stop using that bull**** excuse
Thats all i gotta say, please continue

 

[Yung Mei]

zelda uthrow to infinity usmashes is definitely not an autocombo, as seen by M2k vs Zhime at Pound V.5

 

[bearsfan092]

I just don't understand how you guys tolerate the terrible edgeplay and shields. Those are two legitimate knocks on the game that get overshadowed by the characters.

 

[The_NZA]

I just don't understand how you guys tolerate the terrible edgeplay and shields. Those are two legitimate knocks on the game that get overshadowed by the characters.

On the shields, there is a level of adaption that is required, for sure. But it's not terrible by any measure. It's almost perfect emulation and in the end I'm sure it will be fixed.

The recovery game is a much broader gripe and from what I understand they will be reigning them in. But a lot of the pissing and moaning about recoveries is accompanied by people unwilling to adapt their edgeplay.

The fact of the matter is, the aggressive play in pm is better developed than the defensive and reactionary play that is contingent on learning matchups. Play a matchup for 2 hours, and if you can't stop a recovery then, you are on solid grounds to complain. But many players will just play a few matches, then remark "that looks ridiculous" and will walk away.

 

[Sailor Princess Twenty-Two.]

But isn't that the problem though, why would we take the time to learn match ups in an emulation that isn't even complete yet, when we could just stick to melee?

 

[Rarik]

For many many reasons that have been posted throughout this thread and other places, but if it's the updates every 6 months or so that bother you, then that's fine and you don't have to play it, just try not to complain too much about aspects of a game you don't even play.

 

[Silent Wolf]

I was more in a ******** mood than an informative one lol. Some things I don't like about ivy..his fairbair both reach as far if not farther than jiggs bair, as well as higher. That in addition to his ridiculous aerial mobility makes it waaay to hard to get in on him with no effort or precise spacing on ivys part. Jiggs is great pretty much only cuz of his bair and mobility, while ivy has all that and plus everything else is good. The leaf should not be a multihit projectile. Its way more overpowering than it needs to be. You either lose stage, are forced to jump or get ****ed. All easy for ivy to capitalize on. And the neutral b should have more landing lag. Ivys aerial neutral b pressure is ridiculous and stupid easy. Pretty sure his fthrow and/or bthrow was way too strong too.

You hardly need any melee fundamentals to play that character effectively. I would say reduce ivys mobility to solve some of it, but then his recovery would prob be worthless. Imo add more end lag to fair and bair. This is just off the top of my head while I'm on the bus lol

Edit: one of the main things that bothers me, is that the pmbr tries to make every move clearly amazing. There's hardly any moves that are good in a more subtle way, like a lot of melee chars have. Moves that you may have thought were useless at some point but then managed to find a unique and situational use for eventually. And for this reason, most of the chars that weren't good or in melee have been tended to a bit much imo. Pikachu in melee as a whole is a good example I think.

Its kinda funny how marth compares to the new characters. No longer too great of range, terrrrrrible recovery, no ko aerials. But all these pm chars have all that plus more, usually including some super gimmicky **** that takes no creativity. I'm not saying buff melee chars, but some of the pm ones are out of hand.

One more thing that bothers me are how stupid multi hit moves are in pm. Ivysaurs nair will seriously drag you so far down and hit with the strong hit even if you just get clipped with one of the light mutil hits. That's not how those moves work lol. You should be rewarded for your DI, not punished by some auto combo single move. This all ties into how much I hate their ways for making bad characters good, like game and watch. What else can we do to make him usable? I know, let's make his usmash break shields then kill at 60 when it makes no sense.

The pm noobiness is real. People who are only good at pm are frauds.

/rant

Edit: LOL. I like how I started off attempting to be informative and then my mood turned back to being ****** while doing so. My bad if I come off as an ass.

 

[Ryan-K]

Nah SW you aren't being *****y or anything you pretty much hit the nail on my head with my gripes as well. The problem is alot of the people who play exclusively PM can't tell the difference between melee char BS (which at least for the most part demands fundamentals and are easily abused if used wrong by bad players) and PM nonsense (fully invincible nayru's that's autocancellable and allows her to boost her jump...snake dtilt anti-airing,ccing, and being ungrabbable at the same time, etc.)

It feels like instead of attempting to make characters fundamentally sound, they just give them one crazy good gimmick and double down on it. See: Ike's silly recovery in older versions, Bowser armor on everything, Lucario having some totally awkward system mechanic that makes no sense in the smash universe

Alot of the complaining about spacies from PM players comes from people who A) can't play them anyway despite rambling about how "mindless" they are and B) are people who lose to M2K and Dj Nintendo who they would lose to anyway.

 

[Divinokage]

For me it's just Ganon gets destroyed by Brawl characters so much it's unplayable.. it's really stupid. No matter what you do, you can't punish the absurd moves that have little lag, crazy range and does a lot of dmg. I still remember getting 4 stocked by Vwins, ugh...

 

[Tero.]

My main problem with PM is that it's way to easy.
Basically what silent wolf said about all the moves being to good.

Melee players spent years in developing the combo game we're seeing today and in PM you can just pick up a character and do ridiculous **** even if you never played Melee before...

 

[Jockmaster]

Gotta piggyback off of SW here

They thought they could balance the game by making every character god tier, but that just makes the game super gay. All of these characters were designed to be -good- moreso than healthy and capable of creative play.

 

[K.Louis]

But isn't that the problem though, why would we take the time to learn match ups in an emulation that isn't even complete yet, when we could just stick to melee?

Because it's a different game. A lot of other games (albeit usually ****ty ones) have balance updates done a lot more frequently than PM's updated, but the players chug along anyways.

Gotta piggyback off of SW here

They thought they could balance the game by making every character god tier, but that just makes the game super gay. All of these characters were designed to be -good- moreso than healthy and capable of creative play.

I don't think "being too good" is as much of an issue as "being too good too fast". The PM community seems really afraid of this but honestly if all the characters were theoretically balanced at what top level of Melee play is today most of the newer PM characters wouldn't be able to catch up to the Melee veterans for a while after release but eventually each character would rise to their place in the Melee top 6-8 or above over time.

Obviously this isn't going to happen 100% because you can't always tell between a mediocre and an underdeveloped character and because matchup experience goes both ways (as seen in Mango vs Wizzrobe PM2.5). But PM seems wack in the other direction at the moment because random Melee/Brawl players can pick up a new character with little to no practice and perform extremely well at tournaments.

 

[GHNeko]

But PM seems wack in the other direction at the moment because random Melee/Brawl players can pick up a new character with little to no practice and perform extremely well at tournaments.

What large scale tournaments are you referencing to? I hope not locals lol. I have yet to see a low/mid level smasher perform extremely well at decent sized tournaments. And Random/Unknown != bad/low/mid level, as really smart players from Brawl exist and play P:M as well, but of course would be unknown in the Melee communities eyes.

Also, you do realize that the lack of MU knowledge is a significant factor in P:M right? It's the exact reason why people lose to low tiers, except the low tiers are low, they're actually decent or above. (most likely good)

 

[Papa+Stone]

What large scale tournaments are you referencing to? I hope not locals lol. I have yet to see a low/mid level smasher perform extremely well at decent sized tournaments.

Wizzrobe lol. No offense to him but he shouldnt have been able to beat most of those players, and wouldnt of if he had played any other character.

I agree with everyone else though, some of the design aspects are strange. Guys like mario and link were buffed pretty reasonably though. Also i actually dont mind characters like ivysaur and zelda. I feel like with the way they play they introduce new elements and playstyles tl the game that are unique to them as characters and unique to pm as well. They could use some balance tweaks in some areas but their playstyles are fine

 

[Yung Mei]

I was more in a *****ing mood than an informative one lol. Some things I don't like about ivy..his fairbair both reach as far if not farther than jiggs bair, as well as higher. That in addition to his ridiculous aerial mobility makes it waaay to hard to get in on him with no effort or precise spacing on ivys part. Jiggs is great pretty much only cuz of his bair and mobility, while ivy has all that and plus everything else is good. The leaf should not be a multihit projectile. Its way more overpowering than it needs to be. You either lose stage, are forced to jump or get ****ed. All easy for ivy to capitalize on. And the neutral b should have more landing lag. Ivys aerial neutral b pressure is ridiculous and stupid easy. Pretty sure his fthrow and/or bthrow was way too strong too.

You hardly need any melee fundamentals to play that character effectively. I would say reduce ivys mobility to solve some of it, but then his recovery would prob be worthless. Imo add more end lag to fair and bair. This is just off the top of my head while I'm on the bus lol

Edit: one of the main things that bothers me, is that the pmbr tries to make every move clearly amazing. There's hardly any moves that are good in a more subtle way, like a lot of melee chars have. Moves that you may have thought were useless at some point but then managed to find a unique and situational use for eventually. And for this reason, most of the chars that weren't good or in melee have been tended to a bit much imo. Pikachu in melee as a whole is a good example I think.

Its kinda funny how marth compares to the new characters. No longer too great of range, terrrrrrible recovery, no ko aerials. But all these pm chars have all that plus more, usually including some super gimmicky **** that takes no creativity. I'm not saying buff melee chars, but some of the pm ones are out of hand.

One more thing that bothers me are how stupid multi hit moves are in pm. Ivysaurs nair will seriously drag you so far down and hit with the strong hit even if you just get clipped with one of the light mutil hits. That's not how those moves work lol. You should be rewarded for your DI, not punished by some auto combo single move. This all ties into how much I hate their ways for making bad characters good, like game and watch. What else can we do to make him usable? I know, let's make his usmash break shields then kill at 60 when it makes no sense.

The pm noobiness is real. People who are only good at pm are frauds.

/rant

Edit: LOL. I like how I started off attempting to be informative and then my mood turned back to being *****y while doing so. My bad if I come off as an ***.

Yo otto, what characters do you think are actually reasonable in PM?

 

[GHNeko]

Wizzrobe lol. No offense to him but he shouldnt have been able to beat most of those players, and wouldnt of if he had played any other character.

I agree with everyone else though, some of the design aspects are strange. Guys like mario and link were buffed pretty reasonably though. Also i actually dont mind characters like ivysaur and zelda. I feel like with the way they play they introduce new elements and playstyles tl the game that are unique to them as characters and unique to pm as well. They could use some balance tweaks in some areas but their playstyles are fine

Fair point, but do understand that outliers exist. If you have no one else to bring up, then he can easily be considered that outlier.

That being said, please everyone realize that P:M is still in a developmental stage. It's still a demo. Everything is subject to change.

Take a look back at P:M Demo 1 and see how significantly we've changed (for the better, I feel). Not just the game itself, but PMBR stances and design direction as well. We're not rigid. We're not inflexible. We're not infallible either. We make the same mistakes as professional developers.

We as a team evolve just as well as our game does, and what we have now is not in anyway a solid indicator as to what future versions may be, and what the final product will be.

We understand that we make mistakes and have oversights, both in the programming and design category, as do all competitive game developers in the industry.

That being also said, statements such as "PM noobiness is real. People who are good at PM are frauds." aren't really constructive and don't help the game out at all.

And keep in mind that characters who are "good from the get go" or "get good way too fast" are still subject to change. (See Ike from 2.1 to now. Relatively same character, better designed, much more nuanced than before with various attributes that have more niche uses than before.)

Not only that, but for the early stages of Melee's lifespan, it did not have a massive community, an information highway, a plethora of videos for reference, and years of "true" Meta (not metagame) at the finger tips of players across the world, to be accessed at a moments notice. PM, for the most part, does. If Melee came out today, all 12-13 years of development would have naturally been condensed down to 3-6 years, simply because sharing information is THAT much easier and THAT potent now.

The same thing happened to UMVC3. The game was figured out exponentially quicker than MvC2 because the player base is already skilled, knows what to look for, what to abuse fundamental wise, just has a great grasp of "meta" in general, and has the internet/capture cards/streams at its finger tips.

So keep that in consideration when you think about "well it took melee x years to get to this point and PM gets to that point within months". The collective brain power and how we stay connected and relay information plays a significant part in games now a days, vs back in the day.

 

[BluEG]

I feel as though the characters in project M are too powerful and/or gimmicky.
A lot of this was the design choice to make each character as powerful as Fox and Falco, which I consequently believe to be a horrible decision. I feel the target power level of a character should be around Melee's Falcon, powerful yet not overpowered like spacies. Making every character like spacies also just makes 2v2 a cluster **** of **** around the stage. I really can't play PM doubles......

 

[Sixth-Sense]

Nah SW you aren't being *****y or anything you pretty much hit the nail on my head with my gripes as well. The problem is alot of the people who play exclusively PM can't tell the difference between melee char BS (which at least for the most part demands fundamentals and are easily abused if used wrong by bad players) and PM nonsense (fully invincible nayru's that's autocancellable and allows her to boost her jump...snake dtilt anti-airing,ccing, and being ungrabbable at the same time, etc.)

It feels like instead of attempting to make characters fundamentally sound, they just give them one crazy good gimmick and double down on it. See: Ike's silly recovery in older versions, Bowser armor on everything, Lucario having some totally awkward system mechanic that makes no sense in the smash universe

Alot of the complaining about spacies from PM players comes from people who A) can't play them anyway despite rambling about how "mindless" they are and B) are people who lose to M2K and Dj Nintendo who they would lose to anyway.

My main problem with PM is that it's way to easy.
Basically what silent wolf said about all the moves being to good.

Melee players spent years in developing the combo game we're seeing today and in PM you can just pick up a character and do ridiculous **** even if you never played Melee before...

I still prefer melee over PM, simply bc of the engine, but lol the majority of what you guys are saying is just some serious whining, you guys think there's no fundamentals simply bc there is a multitude of information and experience at your disposal (i think you guys really like to forget this) not only that, what kind of bs are you guys talking about? Please tell me, bc you guys either just watch videos about it and say "oh god that is so broken lol" not only that, it is still in development, and the PMBR are actually great at balancing things, you know why? They've had three years of trial and error, from their part and from the community as well. If you wanna see characters that have apparent fundamentals to a melee enthusiast, look at wario, look at wolf, look at ZSS, lucas, snake, etc.

and complaining about old gimmicks is silly, see Ike's new nerfs, see bowser's armor nerf, and since when lucario's mechanic system doesn't make sense? ESPECIALLY in a smash universe, the few things that wouldn't make sense is a character that doesn't require some degree of control in movement, plus melee really dropped the ball in being balanced and making unique characters (just consider all the clones) at least lucario can call himself a fighting type pokemon, compared to M2 in melee, one of (if not) the most powerful pokemon in the universe, yet he uses his tail for everything, a physic pokemon, yet uses tail, for almost everything.

If you have a little brother that can do some crazy combos, then i'd like a video of such a thing, I can combo, so can SW, so can you, but thats bc we have training or experience and a boatload of information under our belts, but if i showed you my two friends (who have played melee for some time, just never commit to it like i do with training) they wouldn't be able to do jack, minus simple bnb combos and even then thats hard for them to pull off. Weather you like it or not, PM is already a much more complicated game, with so many new match-ups and characters, integrated mechanics from melee plus all of these new mechanics from brawl, not to mention all of the new individual techniques (not counting the ones that could be discovered in the future thanks to the advancement of the respective meta-game) PM is a brand new package, yet you guys continue to throw empty criticism's as if you were part of the PMBR and got out or something.

Gotta piggyback off of SW here

They thought they could balance the game by making every character god tier, but that just makes the game super gay. All of these characters were designed to be -good- moreso than healthy and capable of creative play.

Just to be clear, if they wanted to make a super gay game where every character is a god, they could have done it (actually some people did with brawl-) the thing is, they DID design each character to be generally good and not polarizing, nowadays its strange to see the kind of huge balance mistakes they made with 2.1 Ike/lucario just look at MK, obviously top tier but very fair. The point is, they try and try, and each time they come out with a balance change, dammit they knew what to look at, they knew what to change, and every patch gets better and better

to be fair, i do think ivy is the new ike/lucario, but i also think that falco should get his dair changed to pal, bc it's a ridiculous move, same goes for fox up-smash

 

[Silent Wolf]

I disagree with a lot of stuff said, but I can tell this could go on forever so I'm gonna sit this one out lol.

And I didn't say "people who are good at pm are frauds," I said "people who are only good at pm are frauds." Sure its not constructive, but it wasn't meant to be lol.

@osvaldo- idk I would have to put a lot more thought into it to give a good answer.

 

[GHNeko]

You never know SW.

PMBR isnt the Tea Party. ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)


We can be swayed if compelling arguments present themselves in a respectful, non-condescending manner.


Also I missed the word "only"

Oversight on my part. I meant what you said initially.

 

[Ryan-K]

i don't understand why so many pm players just try to get melee players to play their game instead of just enjoying what they have.

im obviously not going to sway your opinion but trying to imply that my input is based off of just watching videos is a total lie because I took the game seriously for almost a year before I realized how much nonsense was in the game.

 

[Quot3]

Honestly I like project M and in theory it's great and more competitively balanced than melee, but I hate how it took so many melee players out of the melee scene and in to the pm scene

 

[Silent Wolf]

@GHNeko X perhaps, but as you can prob tell I don't care enough to construct such arguments. Especially when noobs like badguy are always gonna be there to have no idea what they're talking about and disagree. I'm content just playing pm for money that this point, as sad as it is.

@ryan-k, having more people in the community and at tourneys makes it more fun in general, that's prob why

 

[GHNeko]

i don't understand why so many pm players just try to get melee players to play their game instead of just enjoying what they have.

Honestly I like project M and in theory it's great and more competitively balanced than melee, but I hate how it took so many melee players out of the melee scene and in to the pm scene

I don't feel that PM players are trying to convert them over to play only PM. They're simply trying to get them to play with them alongside melee. In order for PM to flourish, it needs players. It's more enjoyable that way. I feel that I can say that a good part of the PM community wants to coexist. And in theory it shouldnt be hard as Melee vets can transition between each game a lot easier than vets from other games.

Don't see it as us trying to suck the life out of Melee.

@GHNeko X perhaps, but as you can prob tell I don't care enough to construct such arguments. Especially when noobs like badguy are always gonna be there to have no idea what they're talking about and disagree. I'm content just playing pm for money that this point, as sad as it is.

I don't even think badguy is in anymore. He hasnt posted or contributed to PM in months. and I mean MONTHS.

 

[Paradoxium]

The people on the melee boards are pretty chill, you should see what the brawl players think about pm. They go on and on about how pm is ruining their perfect game

 

[Ryan-K]

@ryan-k, having more people in the community and at tourneys makes it more fun in general, that's prob why

Yeah I know but the vibe I always get from PM players (in my area) are "you should play this instead of melee/ spacies are broken and stupid and that makes melee bad" and it's just annoying to hear all the time especially when I already gave it a chance.

 

[Silent Wolf]

Yeah I know but the vibe I always get from PM players (in my area) are "you should play this instead of melee/ spacies are broken and stupid and that makes melee bad" and it's just annoying to hear all the time especially when I already gave it a chance.

word. well i didnt think of it like that cuz i never hear stuff like that from the washington scene. the pm players here pretty much all also play too melee so yea lol. theres prob more of the opposite here; melee players ******** about pm. its mostly from me tho LOL

 

[Qzzy]

I don't like hearing that people that suck at Melee would like PM. I suck super hard at melee, don't main fox (but to fun to play), and still prefer it. Yeah, I like that it's easier to short hop with fox by one frame in PM, I like being able to short hop with the cast without trouble, but kind of appreciate difficulty of everything else in melee, including L-canceling.

I got my friends into PM, but I was probably the first to get past the hype. I'll probably reconsider it again when they

1) Fix shields. This seems so small to some people, but it's huge! It's kind of why we play the game we do today, to avoid getting shield grabbed. And I like my easy shield grabs. Legit tool that opponents need to overcome. Kind of lame with extra push back along with extra shield damaging moves. This coming from a guy who used to love 64 smash the most for a long time. What happened to just grabbing a shield, even if it was risky or the reward was mediocre?

2) Melee camera! I want to see my attacks and bodies as close as possible. The angle of those hits! yum! And to really see hard why something work or traded or didn't. etc.. Even with the new camera, things just kind of happen in PM and I kind of don't care after a while.

3) Nerf everyone. SUPER HARD. I feel like the initial design goal was flawed. The idea of everyone top tier and fast and mobile is kind of annoying. I'm afraid I'm going to see Kirby (when he comes out) wave-landing across the stage with a string of attacks. Kirby should not be mobile and have obnoxious attacks, damn it. I want to see everyone around mid tier to high range. I think that would be a healthy goal.

 

[GHNeko]

3) Nerf everyone. SUPER HARD. I feel like the initial design goal was flawed. The idea of everyone top tier and fast and mobile is kind of annoying. I'm afraid I'm going to see Kirby (when he comes out) wave-landing across the stage with a string of attacks. Kirby should not be mobile and have obnoxious attacks, damn it. I want to see everyone around mid tier to high range. I think that would be a healthy goal.

You do realize that spacie level is not what we're aiming for, right? Marth level is closer to what we're looking for, unless you feel that's still too high. In which case ,I'm not sure what to say.

 

[Yung Mei]

You do realize that spacie level is not what we're aiming for, right? Marth level is closer to what we're looking for, unless you feel that's still too high. In which case ,I'm not sure what to say.

what makes that funny is that a chunk cast is better than marth
i love PM, i play it over melee whenever i can, but even i can admit that PM has a lot of issues with the characters

 

[GHNeko]

I don't think anyone says that PM doesn't have issues.

But this is why we put out public demos for people to playtest.

 

[Tech-Nelium the Shark]

My gripe with PM is that, as odd as this sounds, it was made to be competitive by competitive players. In melee some moves are quite useless. You were made to work around this and find viable strategies to win. Granted some characters were noticeably worse than others but people played around and found ways to make that character competitive. It seems like you made every character into fox and falco in terms of brokenness. I think the goal of every character in this game should how you guys made falcon. He still retains the things that made him good in melee but he still lacks a good ground game other than his grab game. If falcon was a new character you would have made all his tilts into something that was new and gave him a new way to play him the character. When Sakurai made everything in melee he intended this to be a brawler and because of the other things like wavedashing, l-canceling and other unforeseen advance techs we ending up with melee. Now I don't want this to get lost in translation, some of the things you guys have done are great and innovative. For example, DK's dash attack is in my opinion a great idea that allowed him a new option for movement and follow ups. But is it just me or does he really really need to easy peezy up throw to giant punch or fair. And its not just DK with the easy combos that it seems like programmed to work. I can understand how hard it is to step outside the game and make something a character and put time into moves that may not work into their overall play but when you designed these characters you made them to play a certain way and I think made these things too easy to do. One of the things that separates us from other traditional fighters is that our combo were not meant to guaranteed as taxes but we discovered way to make them work. I understand this may have been what you were going for when you made the game but I feel like you guys were a little overzealous with the buffs and revamping of characters. I'll finish with a lighter note, I cannot wait for Mewtwo and good luck on getting the rest of the game out.

 

[Mew2King]

please return peach/fox/falco's down smashes to their melee range (or at least make peach's closer to her melee range), so that we don't get used to wrong things.

 

[_Liquid_]

I think PMBR is between a rock and a hard place.

Seems like they either had to buff everyone to be on par with the spacies, which is the feeling I get from this thread, or nerf everyone's Melee favorites. I think if they chose the nerf route, they would have gotten much more backlash from the community.

I mean, there was even some backlash when they removed Fox and Falco's frame 1 shine invincibility and decrease in laser damage as distance increase.

 

[Yung Mei]

I think PMBR is between a rock and a hard place.

Seems like they either had to buff everyone to be on par with the spacies, which is the feeling I get from this thread, or nerf everyone's Melee favorites. I think if they chose the nerf route, they would have gotten much more backlash from the community.

I mean, there was even some backlash when they removed Fox and Falco's frame 1 shine invincibility and decrease in laser damage as distance increase.

when they removed the frame 1 invincibility, the only people i saw complain about it were scrubs who would get rocked anyways even if they still had it

not much of a loss IMO

 

[dRevan64]

You can't ****ing gimp anything in this game. Like that just doesn't feel like a viable gameplan anymore, so many characters have crazy godlike recoveries (mario's ridiculous priority+walljump, ROBs thousandmillion jumps, tether characters in general–who either are just straight up dead because they're in one of the places they CAN'T recover or you can't touch them, zelda, I think sonic had this problem back in 2.5, not sure if he still does). It's not that I play a ridiculously gimpheavy game or anything but you look at melee, how many top tier characters can't have their recoveries clipped real easily by characters designed for it? Jiggs...and that's pretty much it. The rest of the top 8 can be gimped the **** out of with a good read, even a good reaction on spacies. Spacies have good recovery options, peach can stall for awhile, but both of them will still get well ****ed up by proper edgeguarding or even just running right off and kicking them in the mouth. Recovery's power in this game makes for a much, much less interesting edge game and as much as we all like to see people play with solid melee neutral game fundamentals, part of the reason those fundamentals exist is because in melee, if you don't have them, you get killed real fast.

I don't really need to echo my remaining problems with PM's engine since I'm taken to believe those are brawl holdovers one way or another, and the PMBR has heard it a million times by now. Other than that I agree with most of what otto said–you give all these new characters a ton of good moves and it feels like every move is falco's ****ing drill in terms of potency, suddenly an ivy player or something can hit any button and probably be pressuring or comboing you properly.

and give me an option to change the sens values to brawl/melee so I can use my favorite controller with this damned game, my other ones just don't feel the same man

 

[Sailor Princess Twenty-Two.]

when they removed the frame 1 invincibility, the only people i saw complain about it were scrubs who would get rocked anyways even if they still had it

not much of a loss IMO

Let's not forget that the only people in a community that matter are the good players.

 

[Yung Mei]

if thats what you believe, thats fine, i'm not judging you

 

[NWRL]

What's funny is Melee players are doing the same thing to P:M players as the actual FGC does to Melee players. My personal opinion is that Melee and P:M are fantastic games but both are pretty flawed from a balance perspective, but P:M is working on that.

P:M seems like it's a Smash game made by people who play traditional (real ) fighting games, instead of making a character with a solid set of moves they seem to be pushing characters into niches, which is kind of cool if you're like me and you prefer traditional fighters. I can definitely see how Melee players wouldn't like it though, but anyway.

Just my 2c.

EDIT: Also the elitism from Melee fans about this is pretty sad, yeah we know you're really good at Melee and you don't want to play another game, and that's fine. But know that your game will NEVER have an EVO 04 moment if you act like a condescending **** to others and scare off potential newcomers.

 

[robosteven]

Let's not forget that the only people in a community that matter are the good players.

...I'm detecting a bit of sarcasm, but I really can't tell at this point.