What would be the placement of ZSS if she were to lose the tether grab only?

[MOM Samus]

Now when I say this, I mean the only thing she loses is her laggy tether grab. Back in Brawl, Olimar had this type of grab but still had to rely on a tether for recovery. This should be the case for ZSS: regular, non laggy grab, but still able to use Z-air and Plasma Whip for recovery.

Of course each grab has their pros and cons. The tether can safely grab people out of attacks that would result in a trade, but it comes with lag. The regular grab is quick, and quite frankly spammable. This would give ZS another solid approach option that didn't consist of SHFF aerials, Paralyser, and zoning with N-air and Z-air. Such is what she deserves because she doesn't have a combo'ing dash attack like Falcon or Samus. Now, she would be able to dash grab around and combo like crazy like Falcon. Grabs are like a necessity at the higher level. Look at all those Sheiks spamming grab like nothing else. Some characters are revolved around grabs. I'd say ZS is half revolved around grabs, but what's the point if whiffing a grab will get you up smashed?

Or would you just prefer her tether grab now to have less startup and end lag? I mean, I think it's the fastest tether grab in the game to begin with.

 

[Disorient]

I'd say ZS is half revolved around grabs, but what's the point if whiffing a grab will get you up smashed?

That's the point, her grab has ridiculously high reward and can be guaranteed out of charged & uncharged paralyzer hits, DSmash, and NAir, but is balanced out by the fact that it's the slowest grab in the game (tied with our lesser half) and has a ton of end lag.

There are a lot of characters who make you come to them, heavily abuse their shield when you do get close, and eventually force you to commit to grabs, which can be reacted to or just plain baited & punished easily. The neutral can revolve around your ability to get grabs. Giving her a normal fast low risk grab with that kind of reward would just straight up make her too good. Probably the best in the game.

 

[MOM Samus]

That's the point, her grab has ridiculously high reward and can be guaranteed out of charged & uncharged paralyzer hits, DSmash, and NAir, but is balanced out by the fact that it's the slowest grab in the game (tied with our lesser half) and has a ton of end lag.

There are a lot of characters who make you come to them, heavily abuse their shield when you do get close, and eventually force you to commit to grabs, which can be reacted to or just plain baited & punished easily. The neutral can revolve around your ability to get grabs. Giving her a normal fast low risk grab with that kind of reward would just straight up make her too good. Probably the best in the game.

I was thinking very similar. There's also a message that I'm going to send you in regarding a particular player that has friended you in favor of me.

Can you test something for me, though? Does her up smash OoS hit characters behind her? I hate staling out the Boost Kick. And I have not played but once in near 5 months now.

We can usually N-air their shields to dust. At that point you can guarantee N-air headshots, and we already know N-air combos into a lot of things. Spikes, deaths, combos from even 0% to 40. Shield degenerates when they hold the shield when you shoot the gun at them. Right before I left, I started abusing that tactic. You don't really get shield breaks as ZSS, but after so many pokes, the shield no longer covers their heads. If we keep up pressure, they have no shield to work with. Only fault is that her approach is predictable.

 

[Disorient]

Can you test something for me, though? Does her up smash OoS hit characters behind her? I hate staling out the Boost Kick. And I have not played but once in near 5 months now.

We can usually N-air their shields to dust. At that point you can guarantee N-air headshots, and we already know N-air combos into a lot of things. Spikes, deaths, combos from even 0% to 40. Shield degenerates when they hold the shield when you shoot the gun at them. Right before I left, I started abusing that tactic. You don't really get shield breaks as ZSS, but after so many pokes, the shield no longer covers their heads. If we keep up pressure, they have no shield to work with. Only fault is that her approach is predictable.

Even more reason we don't need a better grab. USmash hits behind her, but only the last hit (Tested on Sheik & Rosa) unless you're basically standing in the exact same spot as them.

 

[MOM Samus]

Even more reason we don't need a better grab. USmash hits behind her, but only the last hit (Tested on Sheik & Rosa) unless you're basically standing in the exact same spot as them.

Alright, thanks for testing it out. Although I'm currently out, I always love to see ZS get some attention. At least her tether has the least amount of end lag. The startup kills me because I'll have to stale out Up+B out of shield a ton against Sheiks who like to shield poke with fast aerials.

Now, if you would check the message I sent you...or at least thought I sent.

 

[tonyz723]

ZSS would probably be top 3 if she didn't have a tether grab, she still doesn't have the absurd frame data that sheik has after all. Tether grabs give you some cool abilities that an up-close grab doesn't give, but the downside is that her grab comes out in 13 frames instead of the typical 6-7 frames. Most people agree that ZSS relies on getting throws, so if you gave her a shorter grab that she could punish more attacks with, and use more offensively with less risk and the same reward? It would be freaking awesome. I don't think she needs it though, she's a very strong character and I really like the way she plays, personally.

 

[David Viran]

ZSS would probably be top 3 if she didn't have a tether grab, she still doesn't have the absurd frame data that sheik has after all. Tether grabs give you some cool abilities that an up-close grab doesn't give, but the downside is that her grab comes out in 13 frames instead of the typical 6-7 frames. Most people agree that ZSS relies on getting throws, so if you gave her a shorter grab that she could punish more attacks with, and use more offensively with less risk and the same reward? It would be freaking awesome. I don't think she needs it though, she's a very strong character and I really like the way she plays, personally.

She would be the best in the game with a normal grab. The only reason she doesn't invalidate half the cast is because shield is good against her. Once that goes out the window every character is ****ed. It's what keeps her honest.

 

[tonyz723]

She would be the best in the game with a normal grab. The only reason she doesn't invalidate half the cast is because shield is good against her. Once that goes out the window every character is ****ed. It's what keeps her honest.

That's entirely possible, she has way easier of a time killing than Sheik does. Sheik is still a really solid character though, I think maybe they'd be tied for top tier.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

With a normal grab she would be broken.

 

[Sean de Lure]

Only dropping the grab, she'd arguably be #1, due to the potential of getting off an entire stock off that one thing. Her neutral would still kinda be lacking I suppose.
Dropping grab and zair, probably still second or third. zair is a really good zoning tool
Dropping grab, zair, and side b to ledge, probably around the same place she is currently, maybe a bit higher. I honestly don't know what I would do if I couldn't side b to the ledge to recover. back throw down b spike would probably be unusable near the ledge, as well as recovery is much more predictable.

 

[Lustful_Kaiser]

If she had a normal grab she would be so broken since her grabs will follow up with combos for the most part.

 

[Muffin!]

I think she would be the best in the game, but not Meta Knight broken. Sheik, Rosa, Luigi, and Pika still have things going for them that can make life painful for ZSS. I think there are still matchups she would lose. Kirby comes to mind.

 

[David Viran]

I think she would be the best in the game, but not Meta Knight broken. Sheik, Rosa, Luigi, and Pika still have things going for them that can make life painful for ZSS. I think there are still matchups she would lose. Kirby comes to mind.

Who says her grab can't grab low. Zss doesn't necessarily lose to kirby anyway. This isn't the thread for a MU discussion but zss has a hard time approaching kirby but kirby has an even harder time approaching zss and no way to force a approach without percent lead.

 

[Muffin!]

Given the height difference between zss and a ducking kirby, I think it's a reasonable assumption to say that she wouldn't be able to grab him. But it's a hypothetical so it would be silly to argue over that.

I disagree about the MU. Kirby is probably her second worst IMO. But like you said, this isn't a MU thread.

 

[Scootch]

If she lost her tether grab I think she would be best in the game at least tied with Sheik. But she would pretty much be broken. That is my opinion though.