What will Ganondorf's playstyle be like when compared to his playstyle in Super Smash Bros. for Nintendo 3DS / Wii U?

[Thaocnuth]

So from what we've seen, I do believe it's a fair assumption that Ganondorf has been largely buffed when compared to his status as the third-worst character in Super Smash Bros. for Nintendo 3DS / Wii U. These buffs seem to largely revolve around an increase in both movement and attack speed, among some other things. As somebody who mains Ganondorf in every Super Smash Bros. installment that he appears in, and also plans to main him in the upcoming Super Smash Bros. Ultimate title, I'm curious just how Ganondorf's buffs will affect how he's optimally played, and to what extent.

 

[Almand]

First of all, congrats on maining Ganon in every single game he's in, I applaud you.

Second, from what I've seen and recorded in my own post on this discussion thread, he hasn't been buffed too much in frame data (the biggest change is Volcano Kick, but it's still unusable), but he's been HEAVILY buffed in damage. As in, most moves deal 2-10% more than before. Dash Attack deals 17.6%, Fair, Bair, and Dair deal over 20% sweetspotted, etc. Normal techchases and combos will end up dealing massive damage, trades will always be in Ganon's favor, and a single mistake could mean death.

He's also been buffed a little in speed, but not enough to make him 'fast.' Then again, I haven't played the demo, so I dunno. I've heard people say "He's got his Melee mobility back," but I can't really say yes or no on that for sure.

My best guess, however, is that he'll remain a bait and punish character. Especially with the return of dash dancing, he can force his opponent to approach (Up Smash will probably be replaced with Nair for that baiting tool, since Up Smash is now just as laggy as all his other smashes), let them make a laggy mistake, and break in with his own devastating attacks before returning back to neutral. I don't think he'll be high-tier, maybe high-mid at best, but he'll definitely be a beast in an advantage state. That being said, he's slow and doesn't have a very good recovery, still, so he'll be pretty screwed in disadvantage.

 

[Thaocnuth]

My best guess, however, is that he'll remain a bait and punish character. Especially with the return of dash dancing, he can force his opponent to approach (Up Smash will probably be replaced with Nair for that baiting tool, since Up Smash is now just as laggy as all his other smashes), let them make a laggy mistake, and break in with his own devastating attacks before returning back to neutral. I don't think he'll be high-tier, maybe high-mid at best, but he'll definitely be a beast in an advantage state. That being said, he's slow and doesn't have a very good recovery, still, so he'll be pretty screwed in disadvantage.

Ah. That all sounds like how I'm used to using him. Thanks. I generally wouldn't expect heavies to be high-tier, but his playstyle is in my opinion among the most satisfying when won with.

 

[_Ganondorf_]

I just hope his speed and air mobility is buffed enough to make him viable. If he is high-mid tier I'll be happy.

If they make him exactly the same speed he was in Melee he would still be slow and clunky but he would be fast enough to be dangerous to a lot of the cast.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

The playstyle probably won't change much, outside of the sword giving Ganondorf some disjointed hitboxes. He'll need a mobility boost as well, even if his run speed is made to be tied with Marth's walk speed.

 

[Diem]

The speed changes and new up-smash are the biggest alterations I'm aware of. I'll miss his amazing punt kick, but at least the replacement might have a bit more usability.

 

[Scarlet Jile]

The biggest buffs to Ganon are the universal game changes that happen to affect him & other heavies more than the already faster characters.

Universal frame 3 jumpsquat and lower landing lag on aerials are a lot more significant than damage buffs. Overall, I'm guessing his gameplan changes very little, but with any luck, the jumpsquat changes will make his throw followups extend a little farther, and his fair becomes as safe to throw out as it was in Melee.

 

[OhMyBanana54]

I think we’re going to do more aerial shield pressure this time around with the lag and jump squat changes. Other than that I really don’t think his game plan is any different than SSB4.

 

[Boartobewild]

If I am taking a gander at the changes concerning jumpsquat, option after dashing, not quite as annoying offstage situation and the (god bless you sakurai) overall nerf of shield and dodge mechanics/options, I'm gonna go out on limb and say that Ganon will probably have more high risk/reward situations, since these changes will afford him to play more aggressive this time around.

He's also prob benefitting the most from the For Glory damagebuff modifier, since he'll be able to end stocks even more easily and consequently the combo strings are (might) not gonna be as good/reliable for other characters as it was prior and thus not make him as susceptible to ending up as combo fodder, this time around.

With all that being said, when we look at the overall buffs of Ganon, most of these seem to concern the damage and range/properties of his hitboxes but hardly any frame data. Which means that Ganon despite all these pretty nice buffs will still be a slower char playing catch up or more likely bait and hook, be forced to adapt and predict the faster chars actions as always.

However with his massively improved air game, many more options after dash, more focus on edge guarding and most importantly ( hopefully) actually useable grab game this time around, we'll be able to concentrate more on his spacing capabilities instead of just passively waiting/baiting an opponent's mistake every single moment.

 

[Darches]

As in, most moves deal 2-10% more than before. Dash Attack deals 17.6%...

His damage mostly wasn't buffed though? Example dash attack: 14*1.2(1vs1)*1.05(fresh) = 17.64%
Overall, I'd say he's received a mix of buffs and nerfs that won't change him significantly, he'll still play about the same and be slightly better but still bottom tier. The BIG changes are:

• uSmash will be more consistent but require better reading (consistent with Ganondorf's playstyle and superior anti-air but honestly a huge nerf).
• fSmash is basically nerfed, although the new disjoint makes it less painful.
• Ganoncide may be a horrible option now...
• dAir will now be much safer on landing and able to combo, but probably still techable. A notable buff regardless.
• Wizard's Foot buffs will notably improve the damage of his dThrow > downB and sideB >downB. Will it be enough? (hint: no) I like this buff though because the improved frame data vs damage is more reasonable than before.
• TOP TIER VOLCANO KICK!?
• Heavies like Ganondorf will benefit the most from the 20% singles damage buff. This is a serious buff because it will also affect kill percents.

What Ganondorf needs more than anything is a way back to the stage, and he still lacks that. Unless ALL the top tiers are SEVERELY nerfed you still won't see him performing well in tournaments. Everyone is getting speed buffs, not just Ganondorf. If you put Ultimate Ganondorf in Sm4sh he'd fare much better, but that's not what's happening. In this game, I expect him to still be bottom-low tier and the tiers will be slightly closer. His buffs, while few, might be significant under the 20% singles boost.

As a counter-example, Bowser is receiving a mix of buffs and nerfs but simple things like his new recovery knockback or flinching fire breath will have a large impact. Ganondorf on the other hand will still die to semi-spikes at 30% so his new power won't mean much (as usual). At least his neutral game is slightly improved. I hope they fixed his terrible grabs...

VOLCANO KICK!

 

[Boartobewild]

His damage mostly wasn't buffed though? Example dash attack: 14*1.2(1vs1)*1.05(fresh) = 17.64%
Overall, I'd say he's received a mix of buffs and nerfs that won't change him significantly, he'll still play about the same and be slightly better but still bottom tier. The BIG changes are:

• uSmash will be more consistent but require better reading (consistent with Ganondorf's playstyle and superior anti-air but honestly a nerf).
• fSmash is basically nerfed.
• dAir will now be much safer on landing and able to combo, but probably still techable. A notable buff regardless.
• Wizard's Foot buffs will notably improve the damage of his dThrow > downB and sideB >downB. Will it be enough? (hint: no) I like this buff though because the improved frame data vs damage is more reasonable than before.
• TOP TIER VOLCANO KICK!?
• Heavies like Ganondorf will benefit the most from the 20% singles damage buff. This is a serious buff because it will also affect kill percents.

What Ganondorf needs more than anything is a way back to the stage, and he still lacks that. Unless ALL the top tiers are SEVERELY nerfed you still won't see him performing well in tournaments. Everyone is getting speed buffs, not just Ganondorf. If you put Ultimate Ganondorf in Sm4sh he'd fare much better, but that's not what's happening. In this game, I expect him to still be bottom-low tier and the tiers will be closer. His buffs, while few, will be significant under the 20% singles boost.

As a counter-example, Bowser is receiving a mix of buffs and nerfs but simple things like his new recovery or flinching fire breath will have a large impact. Ganondorf on the other hand will still die to semi-spikes at 30% so his new power won't mean much (as usual). At least his neutral game is improved. I hope they fixed his terrible grabs.

VOLCANO KICK!

First of all, yeah those are all very fair and good argued points, except for VOLCANO KICK! Like really?!?! How can you argue for a move that has still more start up than Warlock Punch but no Super Armor to compensate and is most likely still weaker?!?! I mean really the only use COULD be edge guarding but I think I'll rather use any of the many other bountiful options Ganon has at his disposal, when it comes to this area.

I'm in the camp that would rather see this move replaced by a reworked version of his old Up-smash that could function as an antiair, combo tool/setup, quick oos option ( if the mechanic change in shields for drop frames make it possible) and whatever else you could think of!

Otherwise I'm totally with you. ESPECIALLY regarding his recovery. Two things you didn't mention though is the fact that Ganon's jump hight( according to ssb wiki anyway) has been improved and that the directionial air dodge can make a high recovery much safer than previously. As for low recovery the single change I want to see the most, would be Ganon and Falcon being able to double jump and Up-b after their respective side-b, even more so when ****ing Little mac and a few others can now finally do so!!!

Also rejoice!!! Up-b can now function as a kill move, due to having higher knockback scaling and sending opponents at a lower angle and apparently his grab range is supossedly buffed( again, according to ssb wiki) the question is just by how much.

 

[_Ganondorf_]

F smash is a huge buff in my eyes. As someone who likes to space out opponent I see it and the sword smashes as major buffs to my play style.

 

[Darches]

If upB is still a frame 14 grab then it won't be a game changer unless it's SUPER powerful.
I think uTilt should be a weak version of his old uSmash and if you hold attack it charges Volcano Kick.

And yes I love Volcano Kick but it was unfortunately a tad too slow before, I shall use the new one to devastating effect. Best 2-frame punish in the game?

 

[Boartobewild]

If upB is still a frame 14 grab then it won't be a game changer unless it's SUPER powerful.
I think uTilt should be a weak version of his old uSmash and if you hold attack it charges Volcano Kick.

And yes I love Volcano Kick but it was unfortunately a tad too slow before, I shall use the new one to devastating effect. Best 2-frame punish in the game?

Regarding Up-b Well let's just wait and see.

As for Up-tilt becoming a mix between old upsmash and current VOLCANO KICK. How the **** is that supossed to work from a control/buttonmapping perspective?!?! Can you tell me of a single Up-tilt that works that way?

This just reminds me of the main issue I always had with Up-tilt.............accidentally using Uptilt when I meant to use Up smash and vice versa. That's also the same reason I always picked/opted to use either x or y for jumping instead of relying on just pressing up.

Which just makes me wish that you could choose to just being able to use smashes ONLY when pressing a+b together, would make using tilts in the heat of the moment a hell of a lot easier.

 

[Darches]

Well, I hate tap jump and specifically didn't play much Melee because of it. Had to skip Muramasa: The Demon Blade too. Tap jump only makes it easier to upB OoS. So if you tap attack, then you get normal uTilt. If you keep holding attack, then after the uTilt Ganondorf keeps his leg up and charges the fire.

 

[_Ganondorf_]

Regarding Up-b Well let's just wait and see.

As for Up-tilt becoming a mix between old upsmash and current VOLCANO KICK. How the **** is that supossed to work from a control/buttonmapping perspective?!?! Can you tell me of a single Up-tilt that works that way?

This just reminds me of the main issue I always had with Up-tilt.............accidentally using Uptilt when I meant to use Up smash and vice versa. That's also the same reason I always picked/opted to use either x or y for jumping instead of relying on just pressing up.

Which just makes me wish that you could choose to just being able to use smashes ONLY when pressing a+b together, would make using tilts in the heat of the moment a hell of a lot easier.

They can program regular up tilt command to be the old up smash but if we hold down the A button it goes straight from the initial up tilt attack to the volcano kick. And once we release the A button the volcano kick is initiated, depending on how long we held the A button makes the attack stronger just like a smash attack.

Trust me developers can do a lot. If they wanted to smash character could have 4-5 moves for every directions depending on buttons pressed or held etc and more attacks/specials using the D-pad that is used for the taunts now. In Project M Lucario's Charge shot becomes a bigger and slower moving charge shot by using A+B together. I'm sure devs with the real engine can do all sorts of things.

 

[Boartobewild]

They can program regular up tilt command to be the old up smash but if we hold down the A button it goes straight from the initial up tilt attack to the volcano kick. And once we release the A button the volcano kick is initiated, depending on how long we held the A button makes the attack stronger just like a smash attack.

Trust me developers can do a lot. If they wanted to smash character could have 4-5 moves for every directions depending on buttons pressed or held etc and more attacks/specials using the D-pad that is used for the taunts now. In Project M Lucario's Charge shot becomes a bigger and slower moving charge shot by using A+B together. I'm sure devs with the real engine can do all sorts of things.

Yeah they could do that if they wanted to, but that's VERY unlikely. I think it's more reasonable to assume that Sakurai might just replace either new Up smash or Up tilt with his now suddenly very coveted old Up smash if he hears enough people complaining/whinig about it.

And also since I already mentionned it before, let me go into even more detail why having an uptilt that can be just simply pressed for weak up smash and kept pressed/holden for uptilt wouldn't be the greatest Idea.

So as I said the game has three actions that require pressing up and based on how quick and long you do them will lead to either jumping, up-tilt or - smash. And as any new player and even veteran can tell you, the game will often times not choose the most favourable/intended option, if you are playing too hectic or aggressively.

So now you want to add a chargable uptilt to the mix, something that, to my knowledge, has not existed before ( and for good reason) and believe it will not be likely for the game to mistake your input for a smash or even neutral airial ( especially if you are buffering multiple actions in advance?!?!).

 

[Darches]

You'd have to hold your input for the entire duration of the uTilt. Therefore, no mis-inputs. This would be much cleaner to execute than a smash attack.

 

[Boartobewild]

You'd have to hold your input for the entire duration of the uTilt. Therefore, no mis-inputs. This would be much cleaner to execute than a smash attack.

Yeah I understood that much from Ganondorf's explaination, but theory and praxis are two entirely different things.

Anyway let's leave it at that, there's now a better place to discuss this topic and hopefully more people to discuss it with, then right here.

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

That idea of merging his old Usmash and Utilt doesn't sound bad at all. I still like Volcano Kick like it is though, I don't think it's the best move but it's just a case of making lemonade out of lemons I got. Really enjoyed punishing people at the edge with it.

 

[Boartobewild]

That idea of merging his old Usmash and Utilt doesn't sound bad at all. I still like Volcano Kick like it is though, I don't think it's the best move but it's just a case of making lemonade out of lemons I got. Really enjoyed punishing people at the edge with it.

Then please do me the favour and vote or even comment in the thread I made for this topic, would be appreciated.