What we could have had with Lucina

[iDaire]

My Wife is Low-Tier
There is without a doubt here that everyone is aware Lucina is a clone of Marth. At this point in time where multiple YouTube videos have been released stating that the only difference between Marth and Lucina is the range on both of their swords and Lucina's obvious lack of tippers, the only way a person could not know that Lucina is a hard copy of Marth is if they were either absent-minded (oblivious in other words), if they didn't own the game at any point in time, or if they haven't played with both Marth and Lucina at least once to notice some sort of similarity.

Now that we've cleared it up that Lucina is a clone of Marth, I'm also going to present the fact that Lucina is low-tier. At this point in time, it is December 11th, 2015 and the latest tier-list that is out now is the November 2015 tier-list (Seen Here) that very clearly puts Lucina in the middle of C+, which would make her the third best low tier character in the game. Surprised? I honestly wasn't, considering that Marth is a much better character and the addition of Roy saw them both to become overshadowed. Marth's spacing with the range of her sword and Roy's absolutely crushing and dominative gameplay caused them both to become mid-tier, but poor little Lucina, who appears to have an untidy combination of both rush and patience is low-tier. Why Sakurai? Why?

Background Information on Lucina
For those of you who haven't played Fire Emblem Awakening, this part of the text will be filled with spoilers, so if you are planning to play this game, I suggest you go play it first then come back to this thread. One of the two main characters in Fire Emblem Awakening is Chrom, who happens to be the father of Lucina. Lucina is a child from the future who comes back in time to halt the destruction of Ylisse caused the fell-dragon Grima, a destructive dragon that seeks to end the world. The main cast of characters in Fire Emblem Awakening, including Robin, seek to destroy the fell-dragon Grima as well as a bunch of other stuff.

Depending on how the player in FE Awakening plays the game, Lucina's mother can be five of the cast of females on the group. Those five are Sully, Maribelle, Robin herself, Olivia, and Sumia. Here's where the problem starts.

Untapped Potential
Now, out of those five women that I just mentioned, three of them can use magical abilities to either aid their allies in battle or to destroy their enemies (Robin, Maribelle, Sumia). Olivia being one of the remaining two has access to Galeforce, a powerful ability that allows the unit to refresh their turn upon killing an enemy once. The last one being Sully has access to ability like Astra and Lethality. Astra lets the user make five hits on the enemy at half of the damage, and Lethality allows the user to kill the enemy in one fair hit. Along with this, Sully also has access to Luna and Pavise, two other noteworthy skills that are very nice to use in game.

Yet, when we use Lucina in Smash 4, Lucina appears to retain none of these skills as she appears to just be the common Great Lord class that Marth and Roy also happen to be. She has none of these skills. She doesn't even have her own native skill, Aether, that's exclusive to members of the Royal Ylissean bloodline. Why? Let me tell you how each of these skills that I just mention could have worked in Smash 4:

Magic - Use your imagination. If Lucina's mother is Maribelle, Lucina has the ability to heal allies and manipulate the elements of Fire, Lightning, and Wind. She could have been a hybrid Robin and Marth, but this wasn't recognized. I really want a hybrid projectile and swordsman. Link isn't cutting it for me.

Galeforce - In the game, every time the unit kills an enemy, that unit can move again and go to kill another enemy. Although that only happens in one turn in Fire Emblem Awakening, an effect similar to that could easily be replicated in Smash 4. The way I see it, Galeforce was mainly to help me with movement purposes. Using Galeforce, a unit could easily move 10-20 spaces. That said, in Sm4sh, Galeforce can be activated and upon activation, Lucina would have had a higher walkspeed, but mainly, her frame data could have slightly improved. This would be something similar to Shulk, but it's a start.

Astra - Never mind this. Sword Dance already counts as Astra.

Pavise - Temporarily decrease physical damage.

Lethality - Instead of having a shield-breaker like Marth does, Lucina could have had Lethality, which could have been fully charged and upon hitting the enemy, does something close to 30 damage (doesn't launch the enemy that far however).

Aether - The next few attacks Lucina does drains health from the enemy and gives it to her. This probably could have been OP, but Robin has Nosferatu.

In addition to the skills stated above, I'd like to also add that if Robin is Lucina's mother, Lucina has access to almost any skill in the game. Why weren't these skills implemented into Lucina's playstyle. If you have any thoughts of what we could have had with Lucina, I'd love to hear it.

 

[krosswerks]

As amazing as it would have been to see Lucina get fully fleshed out as a character (at the very least, Luci as a Great Lord with a Javelin projectile special... be still, my heart), in my mind, we've already received some pretty good reasons from Sakurai himself why Lucina exists the way she does in Smash 4:

"Initially, I had considered including Lucina as one of Marth’s alternate costumes. After all, she has a close relationship with him inFE:A. In such cases, even if two characters’ names and voices differ, as long as they function the same way, I assign them as alternate costumes. The Wii Fit Trainers, Villagers, and Robins are examples of this setup.

However, even though Lucina shares her physical stats and techniques with Marth, the characteristics of their attacks differ. When two such similar characters function in an even slightly different manner, I give them a separate spot on the roster since that will affect battle records and whatnot. In that sense, you could say she was very lucky to join the fray!"

http://www.sourcegaming.info/2015/06/28/sakurais-famitsu-column-vol-457-abilities-unlike-any-other/

Basically, if Lucina wasn't going to be in the game as a clone character... then she would only be a costume, or simply not in the game at all.

She's not perfect, but she's my favorite character, I have a blast playing her, and I'm just glad she made it onto the roster!

 

[iDaire]

The problem lies right there. Sakuraialready thinks Lucina and Marth Marth function the same. Well, all I can say there is that he needs to see my 3DS.

 

[Tomoya]

She's my wife....

 

[Tino]

I agree with what krosswerks said about Lucina having a Great Lord design, that would've been kickass right there. Have her switch between her Parallel Falchion and a lance as her weapons.

Other than that, I'm just satisfied she's in Smash now.

 

[PHP]

"Looks at PM mod"

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

This topic should be renamed "Captain Hindsight: The Thread"

The problem is that people keep using those words, "untapped potential", to the point that it has lost its meaning while disregarding the context that surrounds this character. Lucina was never planned to be her own character in the first place but was going to be palette swap of Marth instead which is why they ultimately have the same moveset, this has been explained several times all way before the game's release yet some people seem to insist on feeling astonished that it wasn't somehow different. It's not rocket science and there is no hidden agenda either; the alternative would have been either getting her as an alt or not being in the game at all.

"Yet, when we use Lucina in Smash 4, Lucina appears to retain none of these skills as she appears to just be the common Great Lord class that Marth and Roy also happen to be."

That's the thing. She IS the common lord archetype that the FE series has been using since the very beginning. She is the Marth of her own game just like Chrom is, and Ike, Roy, Eliwood, Ephraim, etc. were before them. The majority use swords, they are the main characters and they tend to have identical stat spreads.

"The problem lies right there. Sakuraialready thinks Lucina and Marth Marth function the same. Well, all I can say there is that he needs to see my 3DS."

Have YOU seen your own 3DS? Before you try to get cute, let me remind you that Sakurai did play FE Awakening so he is aware of how things go with her. Secondly, it makes sense that she was chosen as an alt, because she poses as Marth and his gameplay model is merely a head swap of her own. Lastly, the reason she and Chrom were overlooked in favor of Robin was because they lacked the potential in diversity that he brought to the table with sorcery, while those two merely fell under the typical sword user archetype that was already present in Smash through the likes of Marth and Ike.
It is easy to say coulda, shoulda, woulda and all, but at the end of the day the reasoning behind is sound and it's easy to see why they made a better choice in Robin, a magic swordsman, as opposed to a regular swordsman.

 

[Tomoya]

I mean it's best to work with what we have and be glad my waifu is in the game. If Lucina were to be reworked we'd probably be seeing ourselves struggling to adjust to a new play style which I think none of you guys yet mastered the one we have currently. (not even myself) because I'm finding new tech and combos as I continue to improve my fundamentals. I'm still testing them out on others and I'm glad to share to advice but I hate when people use Lucina lmao. (sadly I don't have a Wii U to practice ). So as much as a completely new play style sounds, it would be complicated to adjust overall. Just stick with what you have and be glad you can switch between Marth and Lucina to adjust to your liking

 

[krosswerks]

Honestly I'm pretty grateful that Lucina is the way she is, if she was as adequately designed as ZSS or Rosa or something then more people would play her and she wouldn't have the ultimate Smash Hipster Waifu status B)

 

[iDaire]

This topic should be renamed "Captain Hindsight: The Thread"

The problem is that people keep using those words, "untapped potential", to the point that it has lost its meaning while disregarding the context that surrounds this character. Lucina was never planned to be her own character in the first place but was going to be palette swap of Marth instead which is why they ultimately have the same moveset, this has been explained several times all way before the game's release yet some people seem to insist on feeling astonished that it wasn't somehow different. It's not rocket science and there is no hidden agenda either; the alternative would have been either getting her as an alt or not being in the game at all.

"Yet, when we use Lucina in Smash 4, Lucina appears to retain none of these skills as she appears to just be the common Great Lord class that Marth and Roy also happen to be."

That's the thing. She IS the common lord archetype that the FE series has been using since the very beginning. She is the Marth of her own game just like Chrom is, and Ike, Roy, Eliwood, Ephraim, etc. were before them. The majority use swords, they are the main characters and they tend to have identical stat spreads.

"The problem lies right there. Sakuraialready thinks Lucina and Marth Marth function the same. Well, all I can say there is that he needs to see my 3DS."

Have YOU seen your own 3DS? Before you try to get cute, let me remind you that Sakurai did play FE Awakening so he is aware of how things go with her. Secondly, it makes sense that she was chosen as an alt, because she poses as Marth and his gameplay model is merely a head swap of her own. Lastly, the reason she and Chrom were overlooked in favor of Robin was because they lacked the potential in diversity that he brought to the table with sorcery, while those two merely fell under the typical sword user archetype that was already present in Smash through the likes of Marth and Ike.
It is easy to say coulda, shoulda, woulda and all, but at the end of the day the reasoning behind is sound and it's easy to see why they made a better choice in Robin, a magic swordsman, as opposed to a regular swordsman.

Now I'm going to have to come at you. Let me break down your response one by one and tell me how you feel about this.

"the problem i that people keep using those words, "untapped potential", to the point that it ha lot it meaning while disregarding the context that surrounds this character. Lucina was never planned to be her own character in the first place but was going to be a palette swap of Marth instead which is why they ultimately have the same moveset..."

First of all, people keep using the words untapped potential because that is what Lucina really is and when you get straight down into it, that's all you can really describe her as when we are talking about the contexts of character design: untapped potential. She's limited into using Marth's moveset when she could be using a variety of different moves.

Second of all, the fact that Lucina was never planned to be her own character doesn't give Sakurai or his development team any type of excuse to do a poorer job with her than they did on any of the other characters in this game (excluding Dr. Mario and Dark Pit). I constantly find that whenever I bring up the fact that Lucina is not what she could be, people always talk about how I should be grateful that she's in the game in the first place and not just a palette swap. This is an asspull response in an attempt to derail me off of what I'm getting at. If we're going to argue that people should be grateful that Lucina is even in this game in the first place, then I'm going to argue that Sakurai should be grateful people bothered to buy his game in the first place and not skip over it because of the competitive downgrade that was Brawl.

Adding more to what I was saying before, I'd personally much rather have had Lucina as a palette swap than a poorly done separate character. Marth is tiers above Lucina for a reason, and if this fact is true, than wouldn't I want Lucina to perform as well as the competition does? Wouldn't I want her to be more viable than she is now? Making her a palette swap would have allowed for that potential, but instead, we got a no-tipper Marth. The range of her sword is less than Marth's too, so her FSmash doesn't reach as far as Marth's does. This is just a tiny detail I'm nitpicking at, but it's true. We could have had that in a palette swap.

"The alternative would have been...not being in the game at all."

I feel like I've already implied this in what I just wrote, but now I'm going to make it direct: I'd rather not have Lucina in the game and have more focus on the other characters in the game than have poorly done character as a rebuttal. It's a simple matter of sacrificing one for the improvement of the many, a principle that's been done before by countless people. If Sakurai hadn't spent any time on Lucina, he would've had more time to focus on the other characters. I'm not arguing to get rid of Lucina though. So as to get back on track, let's move on to your next point.

"That's the thing. She IS the common lord archetype that the FE series has been using since the very beginning. She is the Marth of her own game just like Chrom is, and Ike, Roy, Eliwood, Ephraim, etc. were before them. The majority use swords, they are the main characters and they tend to have identical stat spreads."

Here's another mistake. Lucina and Chrom aren't just the common lord archetypes. If I can recall correctly, the second seal wasn't introduced in any other Fire Emblems besides Awakening and Fates. So to say that Lucina and Chrom are common lords just like the other lords are is ludacris in itself, as unlike the other lords, Lucina has the ability to use almost any class in the game (with the exception of Barbarian classes) and Chrom has the ability to become an archer and/or cavalier. Chrom can use bows and Lucina can use magic. This statement is flawed.

"Have YOU seen your own 3DS? Before you try to get cute, let me remind you that Sakurai did play FE Awakening so he is aware of how things go with her. Secondly, it makes sense that she was chosen as an alt, because she poses as Marth and his gameplay model is merely a head swap of her own. Lastly, the reason she and Chrom were overlooked in favor of Robin was because they lacked the potential in diversity that he brought to the table with sorcery, while those two merely fell under the typical sword user archetype that was already present in Smash through the likes of Marth and Ike."

I facepalmed upon reading that Sakurai has played Fire Emblem Awakening. Looking at my 3DS, my Lucina is a dead Dark Mage because I suck at Lunatic Mode. We are going to say she poses as Marth and her gameplay model is merely a head swap of her own. I'm going to say she poses as Tharja and the gameplay model is nearly a head swap of her own. Second seals exist, and change how Fire Emblem is played.

Now when you say typical sword user type, you got me with Chrom. Many of Chrom's promotions and reclasses involve him using a sword and I can understand why he wasn't put in the game. Hell, if you look at the Palutena's Temple conversations with Pit, the developers even tell you that "he's just Ike without an aether recovery." However, the minute we bring Lucina into the common sword user archetype, that's where I prove you wrong. Honestly, here's how it looks. Sakurai played Fire Emblem Awakening up until the part where Lucina joins the group on Normal Casual and then defeated Grima with Lucina being a level 20 lord or something as bizarre as that. The point here being, those who say Lucina is just the lord category clearly have not played past the chapter where Lucina joins or where Lucina aids the group during the Ylisse chapter. That, or they've just not used second seals the entire game.

Canonically, yes, Lucina is a lord, but canonically, Robin can't use Nosferatu, Counter isn't a skill in Marth's game (neither is sword dance), and Ike's moveset implies that he doesn't just walk up to the enemy and attack like every other Fire Emblem fight has been: the enemy standing still and attacking. Also canonically, critical hits exist! So if we're going to be canonical (since this appears to be what you're going at), many of the cast of characters that are already in the game would be hot trash. The point is, we aren't canonical, and if we aren't canonical, why do we have to make Lucina strictly canonical/ strictly a lord?

This is my response to your stuff. I did type a lot, but I had a lot to say. I'm glad you had some feedback on what I was saying though, and I don't mean any disrespect when I say this stuff. I just had to defend my points, you know what I'm saying?

 

[Tomoya]

If character skill is the problem,I mean I could help somewhat since I have tourney experience playing against a variety of characters.(the best Kirby in Texas, the best Samus in Texas and Nuevo Laredo, the best Megaman in Laredo, the best Smash 4 player in Nuevo Laredo, etc) I learned combos that idk if people don't know or just don't wanna reveal. Sadly SU|Trela didn't come into my hometown to evaluate me, but his friends did. Hopefully next time they put me on stream when I play good lmao. But check teamfreeboyz on twitch or. YouTube

 

[iDaire]

Character skill isn't really the problem here. I've played a bunch of tourneys myself and I've been using Lucina since the game came out as a pocket and Marth since Brawl as a main. I'd still appreciate the help though as I'm just rank 2209. I'd call myself a fairly skilled Lucina.

 

[Tomoya]

Rank 2209? In Lucina rankings?

 

[Tomoya]

If so wtf ain't I on the top? Lmao

 

[iDaire]

Not Lucina specifically.
In the Sm4sh brackets.

 

[Nyhte]

She could have had old marth's neutral b shieldbreaker, which had a superior arc for aerial moves

or old marth's dancing blades, where the 3rd hit had more knock back/spike purposes so you didn't have to land the 4th

That's what I would have liked to see

 

[Folt]

Now I'm going to have to come at you. Let me break down your response one by one and tell me how you feel about this.

"the problem i that people keep using those words, "untapped potential", to the point that it ha lot it meaning while disregarding the context that surrounds this character. Lucina was never planned to be her own character in the first place but was going to be a palette swap of Marth instead which is why they ultimately have the same moveset..."

First of all, people keep using the words untapped potential because that is what Lucina really is and when you get straight down into it, that's all you can really describe her as when we are talking about the contexts of character design: untapped potential. She's limited into using Marth's moveset when she could be using a variety of different moves.

Second of all, the fact that Lucina was never planned to be her own character doesn't give Sakurai or his development team any type of excuse to do a poorer job with her than they did on any of the other characters in this game (excluding Dr. Mario and Dark Pit). I constantly find that whenever I bring up the fact that Lucina is not what she could be, people always talk about how I should be grateful that she's in the game in the first place and not just a palette swap. This is an asspull response in an attempt to derail me off of what I'm getting at. If we're going to argue that people should be grateful that Lucina is even in this game in the first place, then I'm going to argue that Sakurai should be grateful people bothered to buy his game in the first place and not skip over it because of the competitive downgrade that was Brawl.

Adding more to what I was saying before, I'd personally much rather have had Lucina as a palette swap than a poorly done separate character. Marth is tiers above Lucina for a reason, and if this fact is true, than wouldn't I want Lucina to perform as well as the competition does? Wouldn't I want her to be more viable than she is now? Making her a palette swap would have allowed for that potential, but instead, we got a no-tipper Marth. The range of her sword is less than Marth's too, so her FSmash doesn't reach as far as Marth's does. This is just a tiny detail I'm nitpicking at, but it's true. We could have had that in a palette swap.

"The alternative would have been...not being in the game at all."

I feel like I've already implied this in what I just wrote, but now I'm going to make it direct: I'd rather not have Lucina in the game and have more focus on the other characters in the game than have poorly done character as a rebuttal. It's a simple matter of sacrificing one for the improvement of the many, a principle that's been done before by countless people. If Sakurai hadn't spent any time on Lucina, he would've had more time to focus on the other characters. I'm not arguing to get rid of Lucina though. So as to get back on track, let's move on to your next point.

Lucina never could have used "a variety of moves"

"That's the thing. She IS the common lord archetype that the FE series has been using since the very beginning. She is the Marth of her own game just like Chrom is, and Ike, Roy, Eliwood, Ephraim, etc. were before them. The majority use swords, they are the main characters and they tend to have identical stat spreads."

Here's another mistake. Lucina and Chrom aren't just the common lord archetypes. If I can recall correctly, the second seal wasn't introduced in any other Fire Emblems besides Awakening and Fates. So to say that Lucina and Chrom are common lords just like the other lords are is ludacris in itself, as unlike the other lords, Lucina has the ability to use almost any class in the game (with the exception of Barbarian classes) and Chrom has the ability to become an archer and/or cavalier. Chrom can use bows and Lucina can use magic. This statement is flawed.

It's not. In fact, being the common lord archetype of Awakening is one of the only constants Lucina has. The others are time travel and disguising herself as Marth.

Also, giving the second seal as a reason for why she should be different is not a good reason: Second Seals are merely for class change purposes and shouldn't be taken as something that's truly core to her character (and this goes doubly so because every character you can recruit, whether in-game or DLC, can make use of them to change classes). By your logic, Robin should be able to go into many classes and use many weapons and moves from all over because he can use the Second Seals like Lucina can.

"Have YOU seen your own 3DS? Before you try to get cute, let me remind you that Sakurai did play FE Awakening so he is aware of how things go with her. Secondly, it makes sense that she was chosen as an alt, because she poses as Marth and his gameplay model is merely a head swap of her own. Lastly, the reason she and Chrom were overlooked in favor of Robin was because they lacked the potential in diversity that he brought to the table with sorcery, while those two merely fell under the typical sword user archetype that was already present in Smash through the likes of Marth and Ike."

I facepalmed upon reading that Sakurai has played Fire Emblem Awakening. Looking at my 3DS, my Lucina is a dead Dark Mage because I suck at Lunatic Mode. We are going to say she poses as Marth and her gameplay model is merely a head swap of her own. I'm going to say she poses as Tharja and the gameplay model is nearly a head swap of her own. Second seals exist, and change how Fire Emblem is played.

Now when you say typical sword user type, you got me with Chrom. Many of Chrom's promotions and reclasses involve him using a sword and I can understand why he wasn't put in the game. Hell, if you look at the Palutena's Temple conversations with Pit, the developers even tell you that "he's just Ike without an aether recovery." However, the minute we bring Lucina into the common sword user archetype, that's where I prove you wrong. Honestly, here's how it looks. Sakurai played Fire Emblem Awakening up until the part where Lucina joins the group on Normal Casual and then defeated Grima with Lucina being a level 20 lord or something as bizarre as that. The point here being, those who say Lucina is just the lord category clearly have not played past the chapter where Lucina joins or where Lucina aids the group during the Ylisse chapter. That, or they've just not used second seals the entire game.

Canonically, yes, Lucina is a lord, but canonically, Robin can't use Nosferatu, Counter isn't a skill in Marth's game (neither is sword dance), and Ike's moveset implies that he doesn't just walk up to the enemy and attack like every other Fire Emblem fight has been: the enemy standing still and attacking. Also canonically, critical hits exist! So if we're going to be canonical (since this appears to be what you're going at), many of the cast of characters that are already in the game would be hot trash. The point is, we aren't canonical, and if we aren't canonical, why do we have to make Lucina strictly canonical/ strictly a lord?

This is my response to your stuff. I did type a lot, but I had a lot to say. I'm glad you had some feedback on what I was saying though, and I don't mean any disrespect when I say this stuff. I just had to defend my points, you know what I'm saying?

No, he's pretty much right. Lucina is constantly portrayed by the game as a sword user (indeed, a number of her supports and some quotes bring up the Parallel Falchion and that she trains with it for battle purposes). In fact, the game is pretty much working against your arguments because the use of Second Seals can clash with anything from support conversations to actual cutscenes Lucina was never portrayed in the game as more than Chrom's child and current lord of her time who wields the Parallel Falchion and who went back in time disguised as Marth to save him. This is the only consistent thing with Lucina in Awakening, any other things such as secondary classes and indeed, what classes her mother gives her, can quite frankly be ignored because they're not important to her character or to the story of Awakening.

And really, this means that as far as movesets go, Lucina is pretty much your run-of-the-mill common sword wielder lord of Fire Emblem. But because of her connection to Marth (i.e. her disguise), Sakurai felt he could include her as a palette swap (and latter, as a clone).

 

[Dilan Omer]

Her Final Smash should have been something grand

Or her custom moves atleast..

 

[iDaire]

Second Seals are merely for class change purposes and shouldn't be taken as something that's truly core to her character (and this goes doubly so because every character you can recruit, whether in-game or DLC, can make use of them to change classes). By your logic, Robin should be able to go into many classes and use many weapons and moves from all over because he can use the Second Seals like Lucina can.

The problem with Robin is the same problem I'm claiming Lucina has, but to a far lesser extent than Lucina. Robin is not a clone of anything and his gameplay is unique. Many would argue that his current fighting style is his preferred fighting style as it is iconic from Fire Emblem Awakening. But that doesn't apply to Lucina. Lucina is simply a clone of Marth with no tipper, which is why there is a problem with her not having skills she could have had. Having been made into a clone despite having the potential to be more, this thread now exists.

No, he's pretty much right. Lucina is constantly portrayed by the game as a sword user (indeed, a number of her supports and some quotes bring up the Parallel Falchion and that she trains with it for battle purposes). In fact, the game is pretty much working against your arguments because the use of Second Seals can clash with anything from support conversations to actual cutscenes Lucina was never portrayed in the game as more than Chrom's child and current lord of her time who wields the Parallel Falchion and who went back in time disguised as Marth to save him. This is the only consistent thing with Lucina in Awakening, any other things such as secondary classes and indeed, what classes her mother gives her, can quite frankly be ignored because they're not important to her character or to the story of Awakening.

You can use the Falchion in any sword-enabled class. Therefore, in support of my argument, if we are talking about her being a common sword user, you can still include skills in the game from her available sword using classes. This would include, but would not be limited to, Assassin (giving her Lethality), Paladin (giving her Aegis), Great Knight (giving her Luna) and Swordmaster (giving her Astra and Swordfaire). The skills for those classes can be translated into Sm4sh. How? I'm not sure. Use your imagination for those parts.

Also, second thing, you can use a second seal to transform her into another class, and then use another second seal to transform her back, making her retain the skills from one class while still being a lord.

 

[Folt]

The problem with Robin is the same problem I'm claiming Lucina has, but to a far lesser extent than Lucina. Robin is not a clone of anything and his gameplay is unique. Many would argue that his current fighting style is his preferred fighting style as it is iconic from Fire Emblem Awakening. But that doesn't apply to Lucina. Lucina is simply a clone of Marth with no tipper, which is why there is a problem with her not having skills she could have had. Having been made into a clone despite having the potential to be more, this thread now exists.

It was either make her into a clone or not at all. Lucina suffers from the same problem as Chrom: She brings nothing new to the table that other swordmen hasn't already brought. Her standout points in her own game is that she is a lord, that she time travelled back, she disquised herself as Marth and, through that, gets a connection to Marth.

Nothing about either Chrom or Lucina make them stand out. Robin, with his magic spells, stood out better than either of them, and thus only Robin was planned to represent Awakening in the first place. Initially, Lucina's only chance to get in was as an alternate costume of Marth (because popular + connection to a fighter already in + would be pretty generic otherwise=make into an alt to please fans of her character). It was only once Sakurai and team had some spare time and experimented with some of the alts that Lucina's current form took place and she got her own spot on the roster.

You can use the Falchion in any sword-enabled class. Therefore, in support of my argument, if we are talking about her being a common sword user, you can still include skills in the game from her available sword using classes. This would include, but would not be limited to, Assassin (giving her Lethality), Paladin (giving her Aegis), Great Knight (giving her Luna) and Swordmaster (giving her Astra and Swordfaire). The skills for those classes can be translated into Sm4sh. How? I'm not sure. Use your imagination for those parts.

Also, second thing, you can use a second seal to transform her into another class, and then use another second seal to transform her back, making her retain the skills from one class while still being a lord.

If we're gonna do that, we might as well just let Chrom be playable and put Luna and Aegis skills on him instead. As for Assassin and Swordmaster, I'm not sure if you even realize the problems of what you just said, so I'll make it clear: None of those classes are suitable to give Lucina skills from. Why? Because Lucina may not even have access to those classes in a normal playthrough of Awakening, or even at all. In fact, whether she possesses access to those skills or not is variable.

And yeah, doing that is a way for someone to retain their skills, but in a normal playthrough of Fire Emblem, you wouldn't have the luxury of doing that. Heck, the class options are just that: Options. There is no indication that Lucina had to have gone through other classes before getting back to where she began. Smash!Lucina could just have gone through her normal class tree without dipping even one foot into her other options.

 

[iDaire]

If Sully is Lucina's mother, Lucina has access to Myrmidon reclass, which gives her access to Swordmaster and Assassin. :/
Having Lucina be her normal class tree without dipping into the other options is further attributing to the fact that she's not what she could be.

Nothing about either Chrom or Lucina make them stand out. Robin, with his magic spells, stood out better than either of them, and thus only Robin was planned to represent Awakening in the first place. Initially, Lucina's only chance to get in was as an alternate costume of Marth (because popular + connection to a fighter already in + would be pretty generic otherwise=make into an alt to please fans of her character). It was only once Sakurai and team had some spare time and experimented with some of the alts that Lucina's current form took place and she got her own spot on the roster.

What stands out about Robin to me is the fact that he's a tomb-user and that he has one of the mechanics of Fire Emblem Awakening brought with him into the game. If we gave Robin his own game mechanic, why can't we give Lucina her skills, which would be another game mechanic? Other than that, everything else you've said so far seems correct.

 

[Folt]

If Sully is Lucina's mother, Lucina has access to Myrmidon reclass, which gives her access to Swordmaster and Assassin. :/
Having Lucina be her normal class tree without dipping into the other options is further attributing to the fact that she's not what she could be.

IF she is. She may very well not be. That's why Heck, Lucina might even be Chrom 2.0 if you get Chrom married to Villager Girl.

Heck, we may as well argue that each version of Lucina should have their own moveset with skills taken from what they could have been so that we can get all her potential out there. See the problem? It's as if I should say "make Robin an axe-wielding Berserker" because he could be that in one of my saves!

What stands out about Robin to me is the fact that he's a tomb-user and that he has one of the mechanics of Fire Emblem Awakening brought with him into the game. If we gave Robin his own game mechanic, why can't we give Lucina her skills, which would be another game mechanic? Other than that, everything else you've said so far seems correct.

The breakable weapons mechanic isn't even close to being exclusive to Awakening, let alone Robin. And as you said yourself, Robin stands out because he uses magic tomes. This is the reason why only Robin was initially scheduled for Smash as a stand-alone character. The fact that he uses magic gives him way more potential for unique moves and more ways to stand out amongst the rest of the FE characters. Heck, the fact that he uses multiple weapons instead of just one iconic one let Sakurai include the weapon breaking mechanic in the first place, and the fact that he is the tactician of the army in his game only makes his spellcasting and weapon break mechanics further justified (as this skids his moveset closer to the tactics and strategy that his games are about, and being the Avatar of Awakening and thus the player's link to the game, it ends up being kinda geniously done).

If you were talking about the Pair-Up mechanic instead (as Robin's Final Smash is based on that mechanic), then know that Robin already has claim to Chrom, the only one she could really use for such a thing. And, also, would be a better fit for the mechanic than Lucina could ever hope to be. (Besides, anyone can be assigned a team in Smash and work together if you're playing team matches and doing it in an Ice Climbers or Rosalina style wouldn't be feasible.)

Skills-wise, Lucina has Charisma, Dual Strike+, Aether, and Rightful King. She may or may not get any other skills, so these are the main ones we should be looking at. Of these, Ike has a greater claim to Aether as a move than she does, while the rest are hard to fit in as combat maneuvers. As for traits, she is of the Lord class and is highborn, uses a legendary sword, seeks to rid the world of a great evil, is a time traveller, and disguised herself as Marth. Of these traits, only two are different from most other lords, and they are the latter two traits mentioned. Time travelling is not portrayed as something she could do willy-nilly, so her trait in disguising herself as Marth becomes extra important. This is how Sakurai got her into the game: By making her an alt of Marth (she has more of a connection to him than Chrom does because she disguised herself as him), because he could not justify including her otherwise.

 

[Pentao]

In the end, I think I would've preferred if Lucina was just straight up an alt costume for Marth like she was originally planned to be, because giving her her own slot literally did not do her any favors except maybe got her an amiibo (and let's be honest, if you like Lucina enough to consider her a waifu candidate, amiibos are far from good figures), and I'm pretty sure people would've complained a lot less if Fire Emblem had "3" characters to begin with, with a very good set of alt costumes for Marth with unique taunts (I mean Little Mac already has a million colors, why not?).

If we're going to talk about the potential of things like Reclassing on the fly or alternate weapons, one only need look at Project X Zone 2's portrayal of Lucina and Chrom.

Not only do you see them both use Javelins, Levin Swords, and Spears, but it also shows Lucina reclassing (to the bride class, because PxZ2 is a fanservice game), utilizing the brave bow as well.

There's a joke about Chrom being Ike without an Aether recovery, yet in one of the most prominent cutscenes in Awakening, he does a move where he jumps several feet into the air to swing his sword down, basically, doing an Ike-styled Aether. Hilariously enough, right after this, we see Lucina do it too. Bonus points: PxZ2 acknowledged this scene and incorporated it into the Chrom + Lucina moveset. Special bonus round: this scene is even a puzzle swap puzzle on the 3DS for Awakening. But I guess better to have 3 Marth moveset variations instead of 2 Marth and 2 Ike (disregarding that Chrom doesn't actually fight that similarly to Ike)?

If we were gonna consider Lucina, Chrom, or any other FE character from scratch as if they were getting in without originally being planned as an alt/clone, there's tons of potential, but given how Ike was stripped of a lot of possible traits (ability to use axes, ragnell sword beams which were apparently removed because balance, even though hey we have Cloud, Aether's Sol + Luna aspect, ability to use other types of swords, hell they didn't even get the blue flames right until they announced Robin), people should temper their expectations of Fire Emblem characters who aren't incredibly obvious with their "uniqueness."

 

[Folt]

If we're going to talk about the potential of things like Reclassing on the fly or alternate weapons, one only need look at Project X Zone 2's portrayal of Lucina and Chrom.

Not only do you see them both use Javelins, Levin Swords, and Spears, but it also shows Lucina reclassing (to the bride class, because PxZ2 is a fanservice game), utilizing the brave bow as well.

It works within the aspect of Project X Zone's battle mechanics. It wouldn't translate well to Smash.

Also, you said it yourself, PxZ is a fanservice game (and a kinda bad one at that if I'm to be frank). Smash is more than fanservice alone.

Lucina reclassing to Bride also ignores an aspect of gameplay in that reclassing is meant to be an opportunity cost imposed by the game: You don't automatically get to go back to your original class (or even another class). Indeed, Project X Zone 2 further proves that sacrifices must be made to a character in order for them to make the cut into something as big as a crossover game.

There's a joke about Chrom being Ike without an Aether recovery, yet in one of the most prominent cutscenes in Awakening, he does a move where he jumps several feet into the air to swing his sword down, basically, doing an Ike-styled Aether. Hilariously enough, right after this, we see Lucina do it too. Bonus points: PxZ2 acknowledged this scene and incorporated it into the Chrom + Lucina moveset. Special bonus round: this scene is even a puzzle swap puzzle on the 3DS for Awakening. But I guess better to have 3 Marth moveset variations instead of 2 Marth and 2 Ike (disregarding that Chrom doesn't actually fight that similarly to Ike)?

If we were gonna consider Lucina, Chrom, or any other FE character from scratch as if they were getting in without originally being planned as an alt/clone, there's tons of potential, but given how Ike was stripped of a lot of possible traits (ability to use axes, ragnell sword beams which were apparently removed because balance, even though hey we have Cloud, Aether's Sol + Luna aspect, ability to use other types of swords, hell they didn't even get the blue flames right until they announced Robin), people should temper their expectations of Fire Emblem characters who aren't incredibly obvious with their "uniqueness."[/QUOTE]

Yes, there's a joke. It's also known is that Chrom didn't make the cut because he would be yet another sword wielder. And, assuming that Lances were a part of his moveset, it wouldn't change anything: He would still be mainly a sword wielder, but now he's copying Link's use of multiple weapons to supplement his swordplay instead. Ditto Lucina.

Heck, I'd go as far as say their potential to be in Smash was pretty nonexistent had it not been for the fact that clone characters have appeared in multiple Smash releases (with exception of Brawl) since it's so easy to make them.

Indeed, everything from their design to their gameplay in Awakening works against them in terms of potential. Design-wise, they are the lords of their game who must prevent the evil at that time from triumphing. Gameplay-wise, the fact that they both have an unbreakable signature weapon in the Falchion means that they lean towards sword-using classes by default since they are where they can put it to use. In fact, the existence of a signature sword for them at all is a major strike towards any "potential" they might have. The fact that Link, Marth, and Ike existed before them (and heck, some other weapon wielders such as Pit or King Dedede) further cuts away what potential they may have.

In contrast, Robin in Awakening was pretty much portrayed as the opposite to them, preferring spells over swordplay. He uses Thoron in cutscenes and his equipment at the beginning means that most people find more use in his starting tome than his starting sword (and indeed, a good use for his sword is to give it to Frederick for weakening chumps). This + a chance to finally portray a longtime traditional FE gameplay mechanic made his potential exceed Chrom and Lucina's. Add the fact that he was around at the right time and there was more than enough reason to have him be a part of Smash.

And then there's Corrin, who manages to avoid being stuck in the "just another sword wielder" group even though he has a signature sword. How? By having a just as unique (or even moreso) dragon transformation. Him being able to become a dragon is just as important to his character as him wielding the Yato, and this did not go unnoticed when Sakurai wanted to add someone from a recent/future game as DLC. Heck, Corrin's moveset in Smash is likely how Chrom or Lucina would be if they were "unique", just more sword moves and less lance moves. (And probably not having the special that pins both Corrin and the opponent in place.)

 

[Mence]

Well.. ermmm............. At least Lucina's perfect pivot is better than Marths! Her PP Jab & U-tilt slide, unlike his. Which doesn't slide, and stops his movement.. Which, I always found awkward.. as they are both clones.. and her PP covers slightly more distance overall.. Soo.. she has that! (Which comes in handy in covering aerial approaches, landing traps.. and a few other things.) But of course, doesn't make her better than Marth at all. She's still worse in my opinion. I do agree, they should have left her as a Marth alternate costume.

 

[Fastblade5035]

I would love if she had her Project X Zone 2 moveset, just without the dress changing.
But hey I'm just glad shes even in the game.