What ruleset do we want for miis ?

[Yorsh]

Hey,

I was about to make another post about miis on reddit, but there is always something very annoying when doing this type of post. I can't say "we want this ruleset" because I'm actually no sure if what I considere the ideal ruleset for miis is also what you guys would like to see. We have no chance to make things change if we don't push all for the same thing. Even if we pretty much all want the same thing, it would be cool if we could be sure of that, and say with confidence "that is this ruleset that we all want, no other". For now, a good number of people are confused, for them there is one side against-miis, and 10 little pro-miis sides (ESAM for example).

The idea is to discuss between mii players/people that care about miis about what we really want, to make sure we agree with each other. If you think it's a good idea, I will link it to other mii forums (feel free to do so too), this one looked the most active so I posted here first.

Now, let's discuss the ruleset :

All special allowed or only the best set (like EVO) ?

IMO, all special allowed is the only thing that really matter about the mii ruleset. I can understand that most people just want to play the "best" set anyway, but the character is still pointless if not customizable, and it's just the dumbest thing ever to allow only the "best" set and not the weaker ones, I mean wtf. Actually, the fact that most people are fine with the "only best set" rule but not "all specials" shows that they have just no idea what they are arguing against.

Can we change a special in the middle of the set like a counter pick or not ?

IMO, it's obvious that we should be able to change our special instead of picking another character, that's a part of the advantage of being customizable. Most people stick with one set anyway, and if you want to be confortable using multiple set, you have to practice, so you should be rewarded for this practice. Also, the less added rules in a ruleset, the better. This rule isn't needed and shouldn't be added (I mean, the fact that you are locked with one set for the set). However, I have seen a lot of people being like "Ok for all specials, as long as they can't change them in a middle of a set to counter me", and even if I think it doesn't make any sense, I don't care that much about this rule.

Are all size allowed or we should limit to guest size only ?

IMO, it's something you have to change outside the game, so we should not be able to use it in a smash tournament. Moreover, some WiiU can take a ****ing year to load the game, so it would take to much time. Guest miis are always available, so we should use them only.

What is your opinion ?

EDIT : Edited the poll so you can vote for multiple rulesets if you want to (if you don't mind about a particular rule).

 

[Ridel]

I think guest Mii's is going to become the norm whether we want to or not. Most TO's don't want to go through the hassle of creating Mii's to compliment certain weights and I can totally see where they're coming from.

 

[GS3K]

I'd just go with the MLG rule of guest size/any moves/no switching sets since it's been done at 3 tournies so far (MLG NOLA, Shots Fired 2, KTAR) and has been the easiest to implement. Other sizes is something I could see working at full customs legal events like the Glitch customs side-tourney (?)

 

[Zoramine Fae]

I'm still all for all sizes all customs (Personally, my Mii is a tall but thin one and it's done me better than any other set I've tried), but no switching sets during the entire tournament. Like, going from a player that plays on Battlefield and Duck Hunt and running Hurricane Kick to a guy that wants to play Halberd then going Piston Punch just doesn't sound nice. Or changing from Ultimate Uppercut to Shot Put when the opponent can't recover well.

Of course, that's for brawler, but going Reflector for characters with reflectors or going Absorbing Vortex when against Ness/Lucas is equally douchey, and you could change your Neutral Special or Side Special on the fly to deal with the situation at hand. That and you can switch off Cannon Uppercut if it's not working, while I think if you start with it you have to deal with it for the rest of the time.

All for all sizes + all customs, but limited to what you start with. Friendlies, bah, go use whatever you want.

 

[Yorsh]

I'm still all for all sizes all customs (Personally, my Mii is a tall but thin one and it's done me better than any other set I've tried), but no switching sets during the entire tournament. Like, going from a player that plays on Battlefield and Duck Hunt and running Hurricane Kick to a guy that wants to play Halberd then going Piston Punch just doesn't sound nice. Or changing from Ultimate Uppercut to Shot Put when the opponent can't recover well.

Of course, that's for brawler, but going Reflector for characters with reflectors or going Absorbing Vortex when against Ness/Lucas is equally douchey, and you could change your Neutral Special or Side Special on the fly to deal with the situation at hand. That and you can switch off Cannon Uppercut if it's not working, while I think if you start with it you have to deal with it for the rest of the time.

All for all sizes + all customs, but limited to what you start with. Friendlies, bah, go use whatever you want.

If I understand correctly, you feel like it's not fair to be able to counter your opponant ? How is that different that picking another character (except it needs less practice obviously, but with less reward) ? That's kinda the point of a counter pick imo.

Also, even if it does give the mii player an advantage over other characters (it's more rewarding that the practice needed in comparaison of learning a new character), is that a problem ? That would make them get up a bit in the tier list, but is that a bad thing ?

I'm not trying to make you change your mind, just make sure I understand why you think that.

 

[Zoramine Fae]

If I understand correctly, you feel like it's not fair to be able to counter your opponant ? How is that different that picking another character (except it needs less practice obviously, but with less reward) ? That's kinda the point of a counter pick imo.

Also, even if it does give the mii player an advantage over other characters (it's more rewarding that the practice needed in comparaison of learning a new character), is that a problem ? That would make them get up a bit in the tier list, but is that a bad thing ?

I'm not trying to make you change your mind, just make sure I understand why you think that.

I'll try covering each aspect of that quote to try making you get a feel for what I understand.


I feel like changing characters requires more effort as you will need to learn how that character plays and maybe even have that character cover matchups that you dislike and that not changing also means that people can know what you will be using before hand and be ready for it. You can't just pop into grand finals and change from 1122 to 2132 with Mii Brawler and have your opponent be faked out by this. It makes the Miis feel more like actual characters in the regards that they would fit more into the Smash roster.

...That was poorly worded. Let me explain. Say I play Mii Gunner, Cloud, and Link (and I do), and say I'm facing an opponent that Mii Gunner hates without having the Reflector and Link sucks heavily against (But Cloud does well against, despite me supposedly being really **** with Cloud). I only have experience using the Bomb Drop down special and can't use the Reflector effectively, but my main is Mii Gunner. I'm locked into this custom special set and can't try my luck with the Reflector since I started with a set of specials, making them like a 1111 other character just... Only I have access to that custom set. Other players might have 1122 for Brawler, 3323 for Gunner, and 3223 for Swordfighter, and that's all they have access to. You can't change them like you can't change them for others like Fox and Villager, but you have the accessability to change them BEFORE STARTING PLAYING to how you want to fine tune them.


It isn't really a problem. Nor is it a bad thing they would go up in the tier list. However, banning the changing of the custom set during a tournament will appease people that dislike customs in the first place at least just a tiny bit and allows people that hate the 1111 Mii set and those that WANT miis to be able to use it, just slightly limited. Both sides get portions of what they want. I personally am all for the whole 'all sizes' attribute despite people wanting only guests, as some people might already be used to the small Brawler or the slightly small Swordfighter and Gunner sets. I myself, once again, run about 3/4ths height and 1/4th weight (accurate to myself for the most part) and it feels extremely natural, while guest size and the smaller ones are a bit clunky for me.


You didn't change my mind, but maybe my stuff here changed your outlook (?) I don't really know how to explain it and hopefully I did well enough here.


EDIT: And people that argue that 'Miis aren't actual fighters!' can be pacified by one set being available the whole time just like with other characters. Sure, opponents need slight adjustments, but everyone knows how insane Brawler's Hurricane Kick and Feint Jump are already and the Gunner/Swordfighter are so rare it's like seeing a good Zelda and saying "What the hell do I-" *lightning kick'd*

You just have to adapt.

 

[san.]

All specials allowed. Everything else is up for debate.

Switching specials can be treated similarly to switching characters, though I can see how some people wouldn't be too fond of the idea. The popular switches are downBs for Swordfighter + Gunner and switching between helicopter kick and piston punch depending on the stage for Brawler.

If the tournament is smaller, they can use a 3DS, QR codes, etc. to set up all Wii Us for sizes or put the liability on the player to bring their own setup/3DS. Larger tournaments have very restricted Wii U usage, so there is more strain on the TOs. If the tournament can accommodate it, I hope they can include everything, but it's understandable if they don't want to deal with it.

Best set is a worst case scenario. Only a portion of players use a given set, like 1/3 at most when it was last polled, sometimes even less. Many players will have to conform and will likely not be too happy, but it will be better than nothing. It's not much different than 1111 but it favors a slightly larger group and only screws over a few less people.

 

[Zoramine Fae]

All specials allowed. Everything else is up for debate.

Switching specials can be treated similarly to switching characters, though I can see how some people wouldn't be too fond of the idea. The popular switches are downBs for Swordfighter + Gunner and switching between helicopter kick and piston punch depending on the stage for Brawler.

If the tournament is smaller, they can use a 3DS, QR codes, etc. to set up all Wii Us for sizes or put the liability on the player to bring their own setup/3DS. Larger tournaments have very restricted Wii U usage, so there is more strain on the TOs. If the tournament can accommodate it, I hope they can include everything, but it's understandable if they don't want to deal with it.

Best set is a worst case scenario. Only a portion of players use a given set, like 1/3 at most when it was last polled, sometimes even less. Many players will have to conform and will likely not be too happy, but it will be better than nothing. It's not much different than 1111 but it favors a slightly larger group and only screws over a few less people.

Well said. Can't have stated it better from your perspective.

I'd be alright with switching or not switching customs, but to benefit other players I'd just stick with the same set the whole tournament. I wouldn't change my set anyways; my Gunner will remain as it is now and won't ever change. I already play 3DS so I can just pop in and transfer over my Mii, so that's something really quick. And for the 'Best Set', whats the best set that Miis have? Because, from what I can tell, barring Brawler there is no 'Best Set' since Swordfighter/Gunner have some rather average customs overall.

 

[GS3K]

Gunner doesn't really have a "best" set since everything has a niche use in some MUs. 3312 has decent coverage in most MUs, but I wouldn't classify it as the "best" overall.

 

[Darklink401]

MLG rules seem great

 

[wizrad]

We've had plenty of votes like this before; nothing changes...

 

[HermitHelmet]

Not to be that guy, but why do we need this?

like nothing will happen, host a debate with TOs or something idk

 

[Zoramine Fae]

Not to be that guy, but why do we need this?

like nothing will happen, host a debate with TOs or something idk

Because this is a forum where discussions occur...?

 

[Yorsh]

Not to be that guy, but why do we need this?

Uhhh, read the post, I guess ? That's literally the first paragraph. If you don't understand, just ask again but be a bit more precise, right now the only thing I could do is copy past what I already typed, so yeah.

About TOs, the tournament I usually go allow mii fighters with all specials already.

We've had plenty of votes like this before; nothing changes...

I've never seen one, but I would be glad if you could link some of them, more data never hurts. If you want to make things change, just spam stuff about miis, show that there is still people that care about them. It's not about who is right or who is wrong, it's about who can speak the loudest.

 

[Zoramine Fae]

Uhhh, read the post, I guess ? That's literally the first paragraph. If you don't understand, just ask again but be a bit more precise, right now the only thing I could do is copy past what I already typed, so yeah.

About TOs, the tournament I usually go allow mii fighters with all specials already.



I've never seen one, but I would be glad if you could link some of them, more data never hurts. If you want to make things change, just spam stuff about miis, show that there is still people that care about them. It's not about who is right or who is wrong, it's about who can speak the loudest.

Wait, that's all that its about?

BLAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

Effectiveness at its finest.


The only tournament that I have gone to back in November, ages ago for me, allowed Miis but had them on 1111 with guest sizes. Not certain if that was the case, but almost certain on it; There was maybe one Mii player there for Brawler but that was it, and he left even faster than I did.